GNU bug report logs - #7196
24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:56:40 -0700

The NEWS item is woefully incomplete.  It doesn't explain much of
anything about the selection changes for Emacs 24 - and they are
radical changes.
 
Among other things, NEWS should detail the differences from the
previous behavior, and explain clearly how to return to the
previous behavior (exactly, completely).

It is not enough to just give one-liners for a few variables,
such as "`x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil."

This should be obvious.  Users and user-level descriptions should
come first, before implementation changes are made.

In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2010-09-20 on 3249CTO
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags
-Ic:/imagesupport/include'
 

Message #8 received at 7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: <7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:52:52 -0700

1. Also, the NEWS item should make clear just what has changed for which
platforms.  What it says currently is incomplete and inaccurate.  For example:

* "`x-select-enable-clipboard' now defaults to t."  That is _not_ a change for
Windows - nothing new.

* "`x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil."  That variable does not even
exist on Windows.  Clarify that this is specific to platforms ___.


2. When saying that the new value of something is ___, you need to also say what
the old value was.  That's what describing a change means: saying what is new
includes saying what the difference is from what was old.

Users or libraries might have done something conditionally based on the old
value.  They need to know about the change so they can decide what to do about
the new value.  This is especially true for key bindings - for example,
"`mouse-2' is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'".  Yes, but what was `mouse-2'
bound to before?

Imagine that a user or a library remapped `mouse-yank-at-click', the old default
binding for `mouse-2'.  If `mouse-yank-primary' is now the default binding, then
the remapping is longer effective.  At least make the user aware of the change,
so s?he can decide whether to remap the new default command just as s?he
remapped the old default command.

Message #11 received at 7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:36:04 +0200

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:56:40 -0700
> Cc: 
> 
> The NEWS item is woefully incomplete.  It doesn't explain much of
> anything about the selection changes for Emacs 24 - and they are
> radical changes.
>  
> Among other things, NEWS should detail the differences from the
> previous behavior, and explain clearly how to return to the
> previous behavior (exactly, completely).

The new text is reproduced below.  If it is good enough, this bug
report can be closed.

  ** Selection changes.

  The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
  changed to conform with other X applications.

  The new behavior is that by default Emacs does not put text into the
  clipboard, and does not add it to kill-ring, merely because the text
  was selected.  Only commands that kill text or copy it to the
  kill-ring (C-w, M-w, C-k, etc.) put the killed text into the
  clipboard.  Selected text is put into the primary selection (on
  systems, such as X, that support the primary selection separately from
  the clipboard).

  Similarly, Emacs by default does not retrieve text from the clipboard
  when the mouse (e.g., mouse-2) is used for pasting text selected in
  another application.  Text from the clipboard is retrieved only by
  C-y, M-y and other commands that yank text from the kill-ring.  Mouse
  commands that paste text retrieve text from the primary selection, on
  systems that support it separately from the clipboard.

  In other words, the default behavior is that mouse gestures that
  select and paste text work with the primary selection, while keyboard
  commands that kill/copy and paste text work with the clipboard.

  This change also means that the "Copy", "Cut", and "Paste" items of
  the menu-bar "Edit" menu are now exactly equivalent to, respectively
  M-w, C-w, and C-y.

  To get back the previous behavior, whereby mouse gestures set the
  clipboard and retrieve text from there, customize the variables
  `mouse-drag-copy-region' and (on X only) `x-select-enable-primary'.
  If you don't want Emacs to put the text into the clipboard, only to
  the primary selection, additionally customize
  `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.

  These changes in the default behavior are reflected in the default
  values of several variables:

  *** `select-active-regions' now defaults to t, so active regions set
  the primary selection.  It was nil in previous versions.

  It also accepts a new value, `only', which means to only set the
  primary selection for temporarily active regions (usually made by
  mouse-dragging or shift-selection).

  *** `mouse-2' is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'.
  Previously, it was bound to `mouse-yank-at-click' (which is now
  unbound by default.

  *** `x-select-enable-clipboard' now defaults to t on all platforms.
  Thus, killing and yanking now use the clipboard (in addition to the
  kill ring).  Note that this variable was already non-nil by default on
  MS-Windows, which does not support the primary selection between
  applications.

  *** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
  This variable exists only on X; its default value was t in previous
  versions.

  *** `mouse-drag-copy-region' now defaults to nil.
  Its previous default value was t.

  *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.

Message #14 received at 7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:49:06 -0700

> > The NEWS item is woefully incomplete.  It doesn't explain much of
> > anything about the selection changes for Emacs 24 - and they are
> > radical changes.
> >  
> > Among other things, NEWS should detail the differences from the
> > previous behavior, and explain clearly how to return to the
> > previous behavior (exactly, completely).
> 
> The new text is reproduced below.  If it is good enough, this bug
> report can be closed.

Thanks for taking a stab at it. Some suggestions and questions below.

For info, are the following statements correct?

1. Anything you select becomes the primary selection (on systems that
support...).

2. Everything that is put on the kill ring is also put on the clipboard.

3. Everything put on the clipboard by Emacs was also first put on the kill ring.

4. Other apps may put additional stuff on the clipboard. The kill ring is
Emacs-specific, but the clipboard is not.

5. Not everything that is selected is put on the kill ring or the clipboard.

If so, consider saying this explicitly.

There seems to be a gap between #1 and #2.  What's the relation between the
primary and the clipboard?  What do users need to know about it?

#1 needs to also say something about the other systems, which do not support a
separate primary: e.g. do they put the selection on the clipboard? the kill
ring? Where do they put it?

>   ** Selection changes.
> 
>   The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
>   changed to conform with other X applications.
> 
>   The new behavior is that by default Emacs does not put text 

you select

> into the clipboard, and does not add it to kill-ring

.

>   Only commands that kill text or copy it to the
>   kill-ring (C-w, M-w, C-k, etc.) put the killed text into the
>   clipboard.  Selected text is put into the primary selection (on
>   systems, such as X, that support the primary selection 
>   separately from the clipboard).

Is it (a) "put into the primary selection" or (b) "becomes the primary
selection"? I.e., does it replace the existing primary or is it added
(prepended/appended) to it?  I'm guessing (b), and that this is different from
the kill ring.  I don't know about the clipboard - is it a list or ring, like
the kill ring?  Anyway, if in some cases we replace what was in some location
and in other cases we add to it, those cases need to be distinguished. "Put
into" implies a container of a collection.

What happens to selected text on systems that do _not_ support a primary
selection separate from the clipboard?  Please add that info - don't just say
what happens for X.  This is important for understanding the rest of what you
write, below.  It's not clear where mouse-selected text is put on non-X and it's
not clear, when you paste with the mouse, where the pasted text comes from (on
non-X).  It's not enough to keep saying that the primary is used for this on X -
what's used on non-X?  If it doesn't have a name, then give it one - something
that you can refer to for the non-X case. At least make it clear, however you do
it.

And when you say "for systems that support the primary selection separate from
the clipboard" one can get the impression (but be unsure) that the other systems
use the clipboard here, since they have no separate primary.  We need to state
what happens for each scenario/system.

>   Similarly, Emacs by default does not retrieve text from the 
>   clipboard when the mouse (e.g., mouse-2) is used for pasting text
>   selected in another application.  

Say here where it _is_ retrieved from for the mouse, before going on to talk
about retrieval from the clipboard.

Why "in another application"?  If not also true for text selected in Emacs, then
state also what the case for that text is.

>   Text from the clipboard is retrieved only by C-y, M-y and other
>   commands that yank text from the kill-ring.

>   Mouse commands that paste text retrieve text from the primary 
>   selection, on systems that support it separately from the clipboard.

And retrieved from where on other systems?  This is confusing, especially since
we've said that mouse-selected text does not get sent to the clipboard/kill ring
by default.

>   In other words, the default behavior is that mouse gestures that

Mouse actions - mouse gestures are typically thought of as something different.

>   select and paste text work with the primary selection, 

On X (you said).  But you haven't said what they work with on non-X.

>   while keyboard commands that kill/copy and paste text work with the
clipboard.

I wouldn't say "copy", since there are different kinds of copy.  The kind you
mean here is copy to the kill ring.

>   This change also means that the "Copy", "Cut", and "Paste" items of
>   the menu-bar "Edit" menu are now exactly equivalent to, respectively
>   M-w, C-w, and C-y.

I didn't realize that BTW.  That means that on Windows they are _not_ equivalent
to the Windows menus of the same names.  Is that the right thing (dunno)?  It's
worth pointing that out, in any case.

>   To get back the previous behavior, whereby mouse gestures

Just mouse _selection_, no?  Not also mouse-2 (paste).

>   set the clipboard

Does it set the clipboard or add to it (I don't know).  The vocabulary needs to
be consistent, whatever the case might be: replacement or addition.  When you
say "put into" it implies adding, not replacemnt.  "Put onto" is ambiguous, but
it also suggests that more than one thing can be put onto (so can be on) the
clipboard at a time.

>   and retrieve text from there, customize the variables
>   `mouse-drag-copy-region' and (on X only) `x-select-enable-primary'.

Be clear - to get back the previous behavior, _set them to_ t (or whatever the
value is).  Don't just say customize them; say what to customize them to.

>   If you don't want Emacs to put the text into the clipboard, only to
>   the primary selection, additionally customize
>   `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.

I'm lost now.  You just said that selection does not now, by default, put text
on the clipboard.  And you can restore "the previous behavior", which presumably
was putting the selection on the clipboard, by setting "`mouse-drag-copy-region'
and (on X only) `x-select-enable-primary'" to t.

It's not clear, to start out with, what "the previous behavior" was.  You made
it clear that now selecting with the mouse sets the primary but not also the
clipboard or the kill ring.  What's not clear is what the previous behavior was
(all its aspects) and therefore what each of the options is for - which part(s)
of the previous behavior each restores.

I'm hoping that this helps you.  Im not trying to confuse you, though it might
seem like that.  This is not clear to a reader, IMO.  It's not completely clear
even to me.

>   These changes in the default behavior are reflected in the default
>   values of several variables:

Maybe it would help to start with that.  If the variables and their previous
values express the previous behavior, and if their new values express the new
behavior, then their descriptions should provide a clear way to say what you
were trying to say above (where you left out certain info/cases).

>   *** `select-active-regions' now defaults to t, so active regions set
>   the primary selection.  It was nil in previous versions.

Good. (Nit: there is only one active region.)

>   It also accepts a new value, `only', which means to only set the
>   primary selection for temporarily active regions (usually made by
>   mouse-dragging or shift-selection).

BTW, why `only' and not `temporarily' or `immediate' or `on-the-fly' or some
such? Only what? (I know, this is not primarily a doc problem.)

>   *** `mouse-2' is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'.
>   Previously, it was bound to `mouse-yank-at-click' (which is now
>   unbound by default.
                      ^
                      )

What's the difference in _behavior_? Why make readers look up each of those
commands in order to understand what's changed?

Why not state all of the options together, before describing any binding
changes?

>   *** `x-select-enable-clipboard' now defaults to t on all platforms.
>   Thus, killing and yanking now use the clipboard (in addition to the
>   kill ring).  Note that this variable was already non-nil by 
>   default on MS-Windows, which does not support the primary selection
>   between applications.

Speaking about the "primary selection between applications" is maybe a good way
to characterize some of the missing info above: we could call the place where a
mouse selection is saved the "primary within Emacs" or some such, as opposed to
the real primary, which is between apps.  Dunno; maybe it would be confusing to
reuse "primary" that way.  

But some way needs to be found to talk clearly about this - about each: the real
primary, which can be between apps, and the other, unnamed holding place, which
is Emacs-specific (for non-X).

>   *** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
>   This variable exists only on X; its default value was t in previous
>   versions.

What does it do?

>   *** `mouse-drag-copy-region' now defaults to nil.
>   Its previous default value was t.

What does it do?

>   *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.

What's the consequence for user-visible behavior?


HTH - Drew

Message #19 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:02:54 +0200

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: <7196 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:49:06 -0700
> 
> > > The NEWS item is woefully incomplete.  It doesn't explain much of
> > > anything about the selection changes for Emacs 24 - and they are
> > > radical changes.
> > >  
> > > Among other things, NEWS should detail the differences from the
> > > previous behavior, and explain clearly how to return to the
> > > previous behavior (exactly, completely).
> > 
> > The new text is reproduced below.  If it is good enough, this bug
> > report can be closed.
> 
> Thanks for taking a stab at it. Some suggestions and questions below.
> 
> For info, are the following statements correct?

Most of the time, but not always, depending on customizations.

Why is that important?

> #1 needs to also say something about the other systems, which do not support a
> separate primary: e.g. do they put the selection on the clipboard? the kill
> ring? Where do they put it?

They do nothing and don't put the text anywhere outside Emacs.

> >   Only commands that kill text or copy it to the
> >   kill-ring (C-w, M-w, C-k, etc.) put the killed text into the
> >   clipboard.  Selected text is put into the primary selection (on
> >   systems, such as X, that support the primary selection 
> >   separately from the clipboard).
> 
> Is it (a) "put into the primary selection" or (b) "becomes the primary
> selection"?

We use "put text into primary" and "set the primary with the text"
interchangeably.

> I.e., does it replace the existing primary or is it added
> (prepended/appended) to it?  I'm guessing (b), and that this is different from
> the kill ring.

It replaces the old content.

> I don't know about the clipboard - is it a list or ring, like the
> kill ring?

It's a single buffer.

> Anyway, if in some cases we replace what was in some location
> and in other cases we add to it, those cases need to be distinguished. "Put
> into" implies a container of a collection.

I believe every user nowadays knows what happens with text that is put
into the clipboard or the primary selection.  Anyway, NEWS entries are
not for explaining these issues.

> What happens to selected text on systems that do _not_ support a primary
> selection separate from the clipboard?

Nothing.  They stay Emacs selections.

> Please add that info - don't just say what happens for X.

There's nothing to tell.  This functionality does not exist on non-X
systems, so whatever happens on X does not happen elsewhere.

> >   Similarly, Emacs by default does not retrieve text from the 
> >   clipboard when the mouse (e.g., mouse-2) is used for pasting text
> >   selected in another application.  
> 
> Say here where it _is_ retrieved from for the mouse, before going on to talk
> about retrieval from the clipboard.

I transposed the two sentences, although I don't think a distance of
one sentence obfuscates the meaning enough to be confusing.

> Why "in another application"?  If not also true for text selected in Emacs, then
> state also what the case for that text is.

I set out to describe changes wrt exchange of text between Emacs and
other applications.  This is what this NEWS entry is about; it is not
about selected text in Emacs in general.

> >   Mouse commands that paste text retrieve text from the primary 
> >   selection, on systems that support it separately from the clipboard.
> 
> And retrieved from where on other systems?

Not retrieved at all.

> >   In other words, the default behavior is that mouse gestures that
> 
> Mouse actions - mouse gestures are typically thought of as something different.

"Mouse gestures" is frequently used terminology.

> >   while keyboard commands that kill/copy and paste text work with the
> clipboard.
> 
> I wouldn't say "copy", since there are different kinds of copy.

The "text" part in "kill/copy text" should disambiguate that.

> >   This change also means that the "Copy", "Cut", and "Paste" items of
> >   the menu-bar "Edit" menu are now exactly equivalent to, respectively
> >   M-w, C-w, and C-y.
> 
> I didn't realize that BTW.  That means that on Windows they are _not_ equivalent
> to the Windows menus of the same names.

Why not?  I think they are.

> >   To get back the previous behavior, whereby mouse gestures
> 
> Just mouse _selection_, no?  Not also mouse-2 (paste).

The part after "whereby" describes what behavior I had in mind.

> Be clear - to get back the previous behavior, _set them to_ t (or whatever the
> value is).  Don't just say customize them; say what to customize them to.

I added non-nil.

> >   If you don't want Emacs to put the text into the clipboard, only to
> >   the primary selection, additionally customize
> >   `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.
> 
> I'm lost now.

Not clear why.

> It's not clear, to start out with, what "the previous behavior" was.

The "whereby..." part says what it was.

> You made
> it clear that now selecting with the mouse sets the primary but not also the
> clipboard or the kill ring.  What's not clear is what the previous behavior was
> (all its aspects) and therefore what each of the options is for - which part(s)
> of the previous behavior each restores.

Detailed description of the previous behavior is outside the scope of
NEWS entries.  Especially since the previous behavior was confusingly
inconsistent on X.

> >   These changes in the default behavior are reflected in the default
> >   values of several variables:
> 
> Maybe it would help to start with that.

We will risk losing the reader before she gets to the important parts.

> >   It also accepts a new value, `only', which means to only set the
> >   primary selection for temporarily active regions (usually made by
> >   mouse-dragging or shift-selection).
> 
> BTW, why `only' and not `temporarily' or `immediate' or `on-the-fly' or some
> such?

I don't know why, I just documented it.

> >   *** `mouse-2' is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'.
> >   Previously, it was bound to `mouse-yank-at-click' (which is now
> >   unbound by default.
>                       ^
>                       )
> 
> What's the difference in _behavior_? Why make readers look up each of those
> commands in order to understand what's changed?

Because that's what we do in general in NEWS: give the reader enough
info to go and find the details by using documentation commands.
Anything else would bloat NEWS to unreasonable proportions.

> >   *** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
> >   This variable exists only on X; its default value was t in previous
> >   versions.
> 
> What does it do?

The doc string tells the whole story.

> >   *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.
> 
> What's the consequence for user-visible behavior?

I don't know.  And neither do others, I think -- this functionality is
long obsolete and unused.

I fixed the typos you pointed out, thanks.

Message #20 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:45:51 -0700

> > For info, are the following statements correct?
> 
> Most of the time, but not always, depending on customizations.
> 
> Why is that important?

They are clear statements of things that users need to understand. They make
your explanation clearer. If they are not correct, then please correct them.
IOW, summarize the change by making some similar straightforward statements
(which are correct).

> > #1 needs to also say something about the other systems, 
> > which do not support a separate primary: e.g. do they put
> > the selection on the clipboard? the kill
> > ring? Where do they put it?
> 
> They do nothing and don't put the text anywhere outside Emacs.

Who said anything about outside Emacs?  When you select text on such a system,
where is it saved (conceptually), since there is no primary selection?  We're
talking about the case where it is not automatically sent to the kill ring and
clipboard.

Think of the user's mental model.  The selection is what s?he sees: selected
text. When the region is no longer active, there is no visible selection.  But
the text that was selected is saved somewhere and it will be pasted using
`mouse-2'.  That conceptual "somewhere" is given a name in the case of each type
of selection in Emacs - except for this one.  We could call it the "primary
selection" except that it doesn't act as such outside Emacs on systems that
don't have a primary.

> > >   Only commands that kill text or copy it to the
> > >   kill-ring (C-w, M-w, C-k, etc.) put the killed text into the
> > >   clipboard.  Selected text is put into the primary selection (on
> > >   systems, such as X, that support the primary selection 
> > >   separately from the clipboard).
> > 
> > Is it (a) "put into the primary selection" or (b) "becomes 
> > the primary selection"?
> 
> We use "put text into primary" and "set the primary with the text"
> interchangeably.

Then you are using English incorrectly. "Put into" suggests a container, and
that suggests that multiple things can be put there.  If you are allowed to use
them interchangeably, then use the latter, as it is unambiguous.

> > I.e., does it replace the existing primary or is it added
> > (prepended/appended) to it?  I'm guessing (b), and that 
> > this is different from the kill ring.
> 
> It replaces the old content.

Then say so unambiguously.  "Set" says that.  "Put into" does not.

> > I don't know about the clipboard - is it a list or ring, like the
> > kill ring?
> 
> It's a single buffer.

That doesn't tell me the answer. Can you put more than one piece of selected
text there? Can you access those pieces separately, as you can with the kill
ring?  Or is it a single piece of text, so that "putting into" the clipboard is
actually setting its value, replacing the previous value?

> > Anyway, if in some cases we replace what was in some location
> > and in other cases we add to it, those cases need to be 
> > distinguished.  "Put into" implies a container of a collection.
> 
> I believe every user nowadays knows what happens with text that is put
> into the clipboard or the primary selection.

Well, you are wrong. I'm a user, and I did not know that.

Even as a Windows user I am sometimes confused about the clipboard: you can have
multiple items on the Windows clipboard, but (AFAIK) that works only in some
contexts - in other contexts the clipboard seems to have only one item.

> Anyway, NEWS entries are not for explaining these issues.

It's up to you to decide how much you explain in NEWS and how much in the doc.
My point is that the NEWS text is not yet very clear.

NEWS should not need to explain more than what has changed.  But if in order to
do that you need to describe the behavior (before and after change), then at
least the behavior description should be clear.

There is nothing wrong with explaining it completely in the doc and then giving
a summary of what's changed in NEWS and point there to the doc section for more
info.

> > What happens to selected text on systems that do _not_ 
> > support a primary selection separate from the clipboard?
> 
> Nothing.  They stay Emacs selections.

But they are not just any old selections.  When you speak later about using
them, you need to distinguish selections that were made a certain way, or at
least the selections that were not copied to the kill ring or some such.  IOW,
you talk about these things, so you need to either give them a name or
unambiguously describe them each time.

> > Please add that info - don't just say what happens for X.
> 
> There's nothing to tell.  This functionality does not exist on non-X
> systems, so whatever happens on X does not happen elsewhere.

The functionality exists of selecting with the mouse and pasting that text,
without copying it to the kill ring.

> > >   Similarly, Emacs by default does not retrieve text from the 
> > >   clipboard when the mouse (e.g., mouse-2) is used for 
> > >   pasting text selected in another application.  
> 
> > Why "in another application"?  If not also true for text 
> > selected in Emacs, then state also what the case for that text is.
> 
> I set out to describe changes wrt exchange of text between Emacs and
> other applications.  This is what this NEWS entry is about; it is not
> about selected text in Emacs in general.

I think it's about both, or should be.  If mouse-selecting text used to add it
to the kill ring (as an example) or whatever and it no longer does that, then
that's about use within Emacs.

The default behavior has changed not only between Emacs and other apps.  It has
also changed within Emacs.  In fact, nearly all of the questions, discussions,
and bugs I (one user) have filed have been about the change in behavior within
Emacs itself.  This is not just about interactions between Emacs and other apps.

If you want to divide the behavior changes between those affecting interactions
with other apps and those affecting Emacs-only behavior, because you think that
will make the explanation clearer or simpler, fine.  But all behavior changes
need to be described.

Even a user who never leaves Emacs experiences important changes wrt selection
in Emacs 24.  To _not_ experience such changes, a user will need to change
option values (`mouse-drag-copy-region' on Windows, for instance).

> > >   Mouse commands that paste text retrieve text from the primary 
> > >   selection, on systems that support it separately from 
> > >   the clipboard.
> > 
> > And retrieved from where on other systems?
> 
> Not retrieved at all.

That's obviously not true. If you select text with the mouse, then click mouse-1
somewhere or hit C-g, so the region is no longer active, then you do some stuff
- move the cursor around and call a few commands or whatever, move to another
buffer etc. - and then you hit `mouse-2', the selection is pasted.  The
selection you made was saved somewhere, and then it was retrieved.

And this saved selection probably should be called some name: "Emacs-only
primary selection" "mouse selection" (but I think this applies also to Shift
selection), or maybe just "selection".  I'd suggest calling it the "primary
selection" anyway and just explain that Emacs copies the notion of a primary
selection from systems such as X Window for systems that don't have such a
notion.

The behavior needs to be described, and that means either descibing this critter
each time, umambiguously, or describing it once and giving a name.  Other
selections have names and definitions outside Emacs: secondary, primary,
clipboard.  Emacs uses those same names as appropriate, and Emacs adds the kill
ring (and kills, or kill-ring entries), which is Emacs-specific.  This
mouse/Shift selection is another kind of selection, which needs to be
distinguished.  It's like the primary, but it is Emacs-specific for systems that
do not have a notion of primary.

> > >   In other words, the default behavior is that mouse gestures that
> > 
> > Mouse actions - mouse gestures are typically thought of as 
> something different.
> 
> "Mouse gestures" is frequently used terminology.

Yes, but typically for something different.  It is most often used to stand for
specific mouse movements traced out, which act as distinguishable UI symbols.
Here you mean just any action you can perform with a mouse.  That is sometimes
called a mouse gesture, but that term usually has a narrower connotation.

You apparently just want to argue and defend your existing text.  Use what you
want (you will anyway).  I'm just trying to help you.  If you don't want to hear
about things that are not very clear, fine.

> > >   while keyboard commands that kill/copy and paste text 
> > >   work with the clipboard.
> > 
> > I wouldn't say "copy", since there are different kinds of copy.
> 
> The "text" part in "kill/copy text" should disambiguate that.

I don't see how.  A user can easily think s?he is copying text by selecting it
with the mouse.  And in a sense s?he is copying it.

> > >   This change also means that the "Copy", "Cut", and 
> > >   "Paste" items of the menu-bar "Edit" menu are now exactly
> > >   equivalent to, respectively M-w, C-w, and C-y.
> > 
> > I didn't realize that BTW.  That means that on Windows they 
> > are _not_ equivalent to the Windows menus of the same names.
> 
> Why not?  I think they are.

My bad.  Dunno what I was thinking.

> > >   To get back the previous behavior, whereby mouse gestures
> > 
> > Just mouse _selection_, no?  Not also mouse-2 (paste).
> 
> The part after "whereby" describes what behavior I had in mind.

Then you don't want a comma after "behavior".  Without a comma, what follows is
an essential, or defining clause - it narrows the meaning of what precedes.
With a comma, what follows is an inessential, or non-defining clause - it gives
independent info.  It's similar to the use of "that" and "which" (where "which"
takes a comma).

IOW, if you are narrowing the topic to only the part of the previous behavior
that involves setting the clipboard, then do not use a comma.  If you use a
comma you are suggesting that the second clause stands for the same thing as the
first: the previous behavior (all of it) involves setting the clipboard.

And because many readers are not masters at such subtleties, it's best to not
make the meaning depend on the simple presence/absence of a comma.  Instead,
rephrase it to make clear that you are only talking about that part of the
previous behavior that involves setting the clipboard.

> > >   If you don't want Emacs to put the text into the 
> > >   clipboard, only to the primary selection, additionally customize
> > >   `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.
> > 
> > I'm lost now.
> 
> Not clear why.
> 
> > It's not clear, to start out with, what "the previous behavior" was.
> 
> The "whereby..." part says what it was.

Sorry, but I'm lost.  Perhaps your next version will seem clearer.

> > You made it clear that now selecting with the mouse sets the primary 
> > but not also the clipboard or the kill ring.  What's not clear is
> > what the previous behavior was (all its aspects) and therefore what
> > each of the options is for - which part(s) of the previous behavior
> > each restores.
> 
> Detailed description of the previous behavior is outside the scope of
> NEWS entries.  Especially since the previous behavior was confusingly
> inconsistent on X.

How much detail you give is up to you.  But NEWS needs to let users know what
has changed in the user-visible behavior.  If you want to give just a summary
that refers to complete descriptions in the doc, that's OK, but then the doc
needs to cover it completely.

One way or the other, users should get complete info on what the behavior is,
how it has changed, and how to get back the previous behavior.

> > >   These changes in the default behavior are reflected in 
> > >   the default values of several variables:
> > 
> > Maybe it would help to start with that.
> 
> We will risk losing the reader before she gets to the important parts.

Suit yourself, but I think you are already losing readers in the important
parts.

> > >   It also accepts a new value, `only', which means to only set the
> > >   primary selection for temporarily active regions 
> > >   (usually made by mouse-dragging or shift-selection).
> > 
> > BTW, why `only' and not `temporarily' or `immediate' or 
> > `on-the-fly' or some such? Only what?
> 
> I don't know why, I just documented it.

That's why I said "BTW" and "(I know, this is not primarily a doc problem.)"

But if the name were improved then the doc could be simpler.  That's the
connection to doc.

> > What's the difference in _behavior_? Why make readers look 
> > up each of those commands in order to understand what's changed?
> 
> Because that's what we do in general in NEWS: give the reader enough
> info to go and find the details by using documentation commands.
> Anything else would bloat NEWS to unreasonable proportions.

`mouse-yank-primary' is NEW.  NEWS is the place to describe such a change
(including why it was made).  NEWS is not just a code change log.

The point here - for users - is not so much which command is bound to `mouse-2'
but what the difference is between the commands.  One yanks the primary and the
other yanks the last kill.  Stating that (one sentence) does not bloat NEWS.

Users can easily determine on their own that `mouse-2' is bound to
`mouse-yank-primary', and they need not necessarily know what the previously
bound command was - because if they want `mouse-2' to yank a kill then they
should customize that using options, not key bindings.  So telling them the
behavior change instead of what the current binding is would actually reduce the
size of NEWS.

> > >   *** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
> > >   This variable exists only on X; its default value was t 
> > >   in previous versions.
> > 
> > What does it do?
> 
> The doc string tells the whole story.
> 
> > >   *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.
> > 
> > What's the consequence for user-visible behavior?
> 
> I don't know.  And neither do others, I think -- this functionality is
> long obsolete and unused.

Maybe say that, so people don't wonder what behavior change they might be
missing.

> I fixed the typos you pointed out, thanks.

Thanks for working on this bug.  This change is confusing and involves lots of
pieces.  It might be clear to the Emacs developers but it will not necessarily
be clear to a user without some help.

Message #21 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:44:51 +0200

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: <7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:45:51 -0700
> 
> > > #1 needs to also say something about the other systems, 
> > > which do not support a separate primary: e.g. do they put
> > > the selection on the clipboard? the kill
> > > ring? Where do they put it?
> > 
> > They do nothing and don't put the text anywhere outside Emacs.
> 
> Who said anything about outside Emacs?

This NEWS entry is about changes wrt exchanging selected/cut text with
other applications.  Anything else that pertains to selections, but
not to other applications, belongs elsewhere.

> When you select text on such a system, where is it saved
> (conceptually), since there is no primary selection?  We're talking
> about the case where it is not automatically sent to the kill ring
> and clipboard.

That's for the manual to describe, and if there are any changes in
behavior regarding that, they should be elsewhere in NEWS.

NEWS does not present a coherent complete description of each topic it
touches.  That is not its purpose.  NEWS is a series of short notes
about changes the user would like to study in detail.  The study
itself should use the manual and the doc strings.

> > > I don't know about the clipboard - is it a list or ring, like the
> > > kill ring?
> > 
> > It's a single buffer.
> 
> That doesn't tell me the answer. Can you put more than one piece of selected
> text there? Can you access those pieces separately, as you can with the kill
> ring?  Or is it a single piece of text, so that "putting into" the clipboard is
> actually setting its value, replacing the previous value?

Putting text into the clipboard or a selection sets their values.

> > I believe every user nowadays knows what happens with text that is put
> > into the clipboard or the primary selection.
> 
> Well, you are wrong. I'm a user, and I did not know that.

Then you will have to learn about that somewhere else, sorry.  NEWS is
not the place to teach such things.  The manual could be a better
place, if we really need to explain that (and I'm still unconvinced).

> > > Please add that info - don't just say what happens for X.
> > 
> > There's nothing to tell.  This functionality does not exist on non-X
> > systems, so whatever happens on X does not happen elsewhere.
> 
> The functionality exists of selecting with the mouse and pasting that text,
> without copying it to the kill ring.

Again, this entry is about copy/paste between Emacs and other
applications.  It is not about text selections in general.

> If you want to divide the behavior changes between those affecting interactions
> with other apps and those affecting Emacs-only behavior, because you think that
> will make the explanation clearer or simpler, fine.  But all behavior changes
> need to be described.

I don't think anything's changed wrt selections inside Emacs.

> You apparently just want to argue and defend your existing text.  Use what you
> want (you will anyway).  I'm just trying to help you.  If you don't want to hear
> about things that are not very clear, fine.

I simply think my job here is done, and bikeshedding over it any
further is not an efficient use of my limited time.  If people think
they can improve what I wrote, they are welcome to it.

> How much detail you give is up to you.  But NEWS needs to let users know what
> has changed in the user-visible behavior.  If you want to give just a summary
> that refers to complete descriptions in the doc, that's OK, but then the doc
> needs to cover it completely.

Please submit separate bug reports if you find the manuals incomplete
or incorrect on these issues.

Message #22 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:23:46 -0700

> I don't think anything's changed wrt selections inside Emacs.

If you really think that, then maybe that's part of the problem.

It is simply not true that an Emacs user will notice no difference in behavior
as long as s?he doesn't interact with other apps.  And you know it.  One example
that you're very familiar with: mouse-select (drag or mouse-3) in Emacs on
Windows, then use `C-y' - the default behavior has changed.

Please don't tell me what this bug report is about - I filed the report.  The is
`NEWS item "Selection changes"'.  The NEWS item is not entitled "Selection
changes when interacting with other apps".

This NEWS item (or another; I don't really care) needs to also describe the
selection changes that do not depend on interaction with other apps.

Message #23 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:38:14 +0200

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: <7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 13:23:46 -0700
> 
> It is simply not true that an Emacs user will notice no difference in behavior
> as long as s?he doesn't interact with other apps.  And you know it.  One example
> that you're very familiar with: mouse-select (drag or mouse-3) in Emacs on
> Windows, then use `C-y' - the default behavior has changed.

This change _is_ described in the entry I've modified.

Message #24 received at 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 7196-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#7196: 24.0.50; NEWS item "Selection changes"
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:11:01 -0700

> This change _is_ described in the entry I've modified.

Good. Hopefully the end result will be what users need. Thanks.

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