GNU bug report logs - #26796
26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 11:49:55 +0200

To reproduce, open a file, type in "á" and save the file.  Emacs will
now say (if you're a utf-8 kind of person)

Wrote ‘/tmp/a’ (2 characters)

which is wrong, since there's just one character in the buffer.  Perhaps
saying "(2 bytes)" will be more helpful?

(I'd rather Emacs default to not saying anything about the length of the
file saved at all by default, since it's just noise to me (and I'll
assume to most people).)


In GNU Emacs 26.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.14.5)
 of 2017-04-24 built on stories
Repository revision: a1f93c1dfa53dbe007faa09ab0c6e913e86e3ffe
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11604000
System Description:	Debian GNU/Linux 8.7 (jessie)


-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #8 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 13:32:33 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 11:49:55 +0200
> 
> To reproduce, open a file, type in "á" and save the file.  Emacs will
> now say (if you're a utf-8 kind of person)
> 
> Wrote ‘/tmp/a’ (2 characters)
> 
> which is wrong, since there's just one character in the buffer.

I see "1 characters" here.  I think the result depends on who you type
the above: if there are two characters, a followed by ́, then the file
really has 2 characters, and they are only shown as one on display.
Try "C-u C-x =" to see what you have in the buffer.

> Perhaps saying "(2 bytes)" will be more helpful?

I really doubt that: Emacs users tend to think in terms of characters
than in terms of bytes.

Message #13 received at 26796-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 26796-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 12:38:14 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I see "1 characters" here.  I think the result depends on who you type
> the above: if there are two characters, a followed by ́, then the file
> really has 2 characters, and they are only shown as one on display.
> Try "C-u C-x =" to see what you have in the buffer.

No, it was an á, but the problem was instead that I apparently had
fumbled and added a newline before saving?  Hm.  Sorry for the noise;
closing.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #16 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 12:45:45 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Perhaps saying "(2 bytes)" will be more helpful?
>
> I really doubt that: Emacs users tend to think in terms of characters
> than in terms of bytes.

But this is questionable, at least:

(with-temp-buffer (set-buffer-multibyte nil) (insert-file-contents "~/rms.jpg") (write-region (point-min) (point-max) "/tmp/a.jpg"))
Wrote ‘/tmp/a.jpg’ (889 characters)

There are no characters in a JPEG file; it's all bytes.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #19 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 14:06:37 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 12:45:45 +0200
> 
> But this is questionable, at least:
> 
> (with-temp-buffer (set-buffer-multibyte nil) (insert-file-contents "~/rms.jpg") (write-region (point-min) (point-max) "/tmp/a.jpg"))
> Wrote ‘/tmp/a.jpg’ (889 characters)
> 
> There are no characters in a JPEG file; it's all bytes.

Each byte is a character in this case, right?

Anyway, since you don't like this feature, it's clear that you can
come up with many examples where you don't like the result.  People
who do like it will most probably disagree.

Message #22 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 08:16:53 -0400

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> (I'd rather Emacs default to not saying anything about the length of the
> file saved at all by default, since it's just noise to me (and I'll
> assume to most people).)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Anyway, since you don't like this feature, it's clear that you can
> come up with many examples where you don't like the result.  People
> who do like it will most probably disagree.

Actually this reminds I was planning on reverting this feature entirely,
I haven't seen anyone say they like it (the bug reporter who initiated
this feature never responded:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=354#81) whereas quite a
few seem to actively dislike it.

Message #25 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 17:19:04 +0300

> From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
> Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 08:16:53 -0400
> Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Actually this reminds I was planning on reverting this feature entirely,

Since it's already implemented, maybe just make it optional, by
default off.

Message #28 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 13:21:58 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
>> Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 08:16:53 -0400
>> Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> Actually this reminds I was planning on reverting this feature entirely,
>
> Since it's already implemented, maybe just make it optional, by
> default off.

I'm not sure the added complexity is worth it for a feature that
probably nobody will bother using...

Message #31 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, larsi <at> gnus.org,
 npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 18:11:51 -0700

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Appending " (NNNN characters)" to the "Wrote FOO" messages appears to be 
unpopular and at times confusing. At least it should be off by default, so I 
installed the attached. It'd be fine with me if we removed them entirely.

[0001-New-var-write-region-verbose-default-nil.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #34 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 01:02:27 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
>> Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 08:16:53 -0400
>> Cc: 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> Actually this reminds I was planning on reverting this feature entirely,
>
> Since it's already implemented, maybe just make it optional, by
> default off.

Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?

Message #37 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 17:33:59 +0300

> From: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>
> Cc: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net,  larsi <at> gnus.org,  26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 01:02:27 -0400
> 
> Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?

Seems we are back at the discussion we had starting here:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-04/msg00219.html

;-)

Message #40 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>, larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 11:59:52 -0400

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?
>
> Seems we are back at the discussion we had starting here:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-04/msg00219.html

In which, if I read right, literally no-one was in favour of the feature?
A feature that several people have now spent time debugging, tweaking,
and documenting, and which will have to be supported going forwards.

Message #43 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: mvoteiza <at> udel.edu, larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 19:07:56 +0300

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>,  larsi <at> gnus.org,  26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
> Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 11:59:52 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?
> >
> > Seems we are back at the discussion we had starting here:
> >
> >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-04/msg00219.html
> 
> In which, if I read right, literally no-one was in favour of the feature?
> A feature that several people have now spent time debugging, tweaking,
> and documenting, and which will have to be supported going forwards.

Is this a complaint about something I did?  Just wondering.

Message #46 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, larsi <at> gnus.org, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 20:41:34 -0400

On 08/05/17 at 07:07pm, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
> > Cc: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>,  larsi <at> gnus.org,  26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
> > Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 11:59:52 -0400
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > 
> > >> Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?
> > >
> > > Seems we are back at the discussion we had starting here:
> > >
> > >   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-04/msg00219.html
> > 
> > In which, if I read right, literally no-one was in favour of the feature?
> > A feature that several people have now spent time debugging, tweaking,
> > and documenting, and which will have to be supported going forwards.
> 
> Is this a complaint about something I did?  Just wondering.

I'm just here to complain that everything stemming from this change,
including the bikeshedding about if and how filenames in the message
should be quoted (which is just more waste of space) hasn't been
reverted yet.

Message #49 received at 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Mark Oteiza <mvoteiza <at> udel.edu>, larsi <at> gnus.org,
 Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 26796 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26796: 26.0.50; (2 characters) is usually wrong
Date: Tue, 09 May 2017 00:39:06 -0400

unarchive 354
tags 354 = wontfix
quit

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
>>> Was there any reason to implement it in the first place?
>>
>> Seems we are back at the discussion we had starting here:
>>
>>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-04/msg00219.html
>
> In which, if I read right, literally no-one was in favour of the feature?
> A feature that several people have now spent time debugging, tweaking,
> and documenting, and which will have to be supported going forwards.

My only defence is that everyone seemed to think it was a good idea
*before* I merged it.  In hindsight I should have reverted this much
sooner, but anyway, it's done now [1: daaec72a82].

[1: daaec72a82]: 2017-05-08 23:28:32 -0400
  Revert "Output number of characters added to file (Bug#354)"
  http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=daaec72a82e76f916e639acb51a8ad602433e8a9

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