GNU bug report logs - #25204
25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when Emacs has the focus

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 25.1.50;
 I can't change the scroll-lock setting when Emacs has the focus
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:17:47 +0100

When Emacs has the focus, pressing the <scroll> key (usually labelled
"scroll lock") has no effect, i.e., if scroll-lock was enabled at that
moment, it remains enabled (and vice-versa).

If I select another application, then the above problem disappears,
i.e., I can't switch on/off the scroll-lock setting.

Tested with "emacs -Q".

In GNU Emacs 25.1.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2016-11-12 built on LEG570
Repository revision: 9ad2ae7757b96d5887c3c0547fcd62e558cadd23
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 'configure --host=i686-pc-mingw32'

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #8 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:22:26 +0100

> If I select another application, then the above problem disappears,
> i.e., I can't switch on/off the scroll-lock setting.

        ^^^^^^^
I *can* (sorry).

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #11 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50;
 I can't change the scroll-lock setting when Emacs has the focus
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:11:31 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:17:47 +0100
> 
> When Emacs has the focus, pressing the <scroll> key (usually labelled
> "scroll lock") has no effect, i.e., if scroll-lock was enabled at that
> moment, it remains enabled (and vice-versa).

When I do that, I see Emacs bitching at me, saying that <scroll> is
undefined.  Don't you see that?

Message #14 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:22:18 +0100

>> When Emacs has the focus, pressing the <scroll> key (usually labelled
>> "scroll lock") has no effect, i.e., if scroll-lock was enabled at that
>> moment, it remains enabled (and vice-versa).
>
> When I do that, I see Emacs bitching at me, saying that <scroll> is
> undefined.  Don't you see that?

Yes, I do.  And the scroll-lock led of my keyboard blinks as if the
setting was changed but restored after a fraction of a second.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #17 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:04:06 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:22:18 +0100
> Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >> When Emacs has the focus, pressing the <scroll> key (usually labelled
> >> "scroll lock") has no effect, i.e., if scroll-lock was enabled at that
> >> moment, it remains enabled (and vice-versa).
> >
> > When I do that, I see Emacs bitching at me, saying that <scroll> is
> > undefined.  Don't you see that?
> 
> Yes, I do.  And the scroll-lock led of my keyboard blinks as if the
> setting was changed but restored after a fraction of a second.

That's the intended behavior, since Emacs receives and by default
ignores that key.

Why is that a problem?  What did you expect this key to do inside
Emacs, when it is not bound to any key?  AFAIK, it has no system-wide
default behavior, each application does whatever it pleases with it.

Message #20 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:52:44 +0100

>> >> When Emacs has the focus, pressing the <scroll> key (usually labelled
>> >> "scroll lock") has no effect, i.e., if scroll-lock was enabled at that
>> >> moment, it remains enabled (and vice-versa).
>> >
>> > When I do that, I see Emacs bitching at me, saying that <scroll> is
>> > undefined.  Don't you see that?
>>
>> Yes, I do.  And the scroll-lock led of my keyboard blinks as if the
>> setting was changed but restored after a fraction of a second.
>
> That's the intended behavior, since Emacs receives and by default
> ignores that key.
>
> Why is that a problem?

That (Emacs ignoring the key) is not the problem I reported.

> What did you expect this key to do inside
> Emacs, when it is not bound to any key?  AFAIK, it has no system-wide
> default behavior, each application does whatever it pleases with it.

I expect the <scroll> key to *always* toggle the "scroll lock"
(system-wide) state, which is the behavior I've ever seen, with the
only exception reported here.

It doesn't make any sense to me that Emacs, when focused, blocks the
current "scroll lock" state.  To me, this is definitely unexpected
(annoying) behavior.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #23 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 16:44:53 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:52:44 +0100
> Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I expect the <scroll> key to *always* toggle the "scroll lock"
> (system-wide) state, which is the behavior I've ever seen, with the
> only exception reported here.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me that Emacs, when focused, blocks the
> current "scroll lock" state.  To me, this is definitely unexpected
> (annoying) behavior.

That was the default behavior since Emacs 23.2; I guess very few users
really press that key or care about the results.

If you set w32-scroll-lock-modifier to t, does that produce the
behavior you expect?  If so, I prefer to update the doc string to
mention this setting, rather than change back 7-year old behavior.

Thanks.

Message #26 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 22:40:25 +0100

> That was the default behavior since Emacs 23.2; I guess very few users
> really press that key or care about the results.

I agree, because otherwise a bug report like this would have been filed earlier.

In fact, I also don't use that key for anything.  I found this bug
while investigating another problem: In my office PC, the scroll-lock
state sometimes, somehow, ends up being "ON" (without pressing the
scroll-lock key).  That annoys me while working in MS-Excel, and I
suspect that Emacs has something to do with that phenomenon.  But I
still haven't found a recipe to report that problem.

> If you set w32-scroll-lock-modifier to t, does that produce the
> behavior you expect?

Yes.

>  If so, I prefer to update the doc string to
> mention this setting, rather than change back 7-year old behavior.

FWIW: IMO, the default behavior should be let the scroll-lock key
toggle the scroll-lock status.  Definitely.

Thanks.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #31 received at 25204-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:03:43 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2016 22:40:25 +0100
> Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > If you set w32-scroll-lock-modifier to t, does that produce the
> > behavior you expect?
> 
> Yes.

OK, I documented how to get the behavior you wanted, and I'm marking
this bug done.


> FWIW: IMO, the default behavior should be let the scroll-lock key
> toggle the scroll-lock status.  Definitely.

Well, as I said, this was changed from t to nil 7 years ago, see
bug#2827.  The reason that was done seems no longer be pertinent, but
still, we had this default since then, so I don't think we should
change it.

Thanks.

Message #34 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 10:13:14 +0100

> FWIW: IMO, the default behavior should be let the scroll-lock key
> toggle the scroll-lock status.  Definitely.

For the record: I've just noticed the following inconsistency:

The same Emacs (-Q) binary[1] have different behaviors on different
MS-Windows variants.  With w32-scroll-modifier set to nil:
* On Windows 7 and 10,  the scroll-lock key does _not_ toggle the setting.
* On Windows 2003 server,  the scroll-lock key _does_ toggle the setting.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

[1] Build from the emacs-25 branch on 2016-11-12.

Message #37 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 17:55:24 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 10:13:14 +0100
> Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> For the record: I've just noticed the following inconsistency:
> 
> The same Emacs (-Q) binary[1] have different behaviors on different
> MS-Windows variants.  With w32-scroll-modifier set to nil:
> * On Windows 7 and 10,  the scroll-lock key does _not_ toggle the setting.
> * On Windows 2003 server,  the scroll-lock key _does_ toggle the setting.

I cannot reproduce this here.  I tried on XP and Windows 7, and on
both I see the LED blink for a small fraction of a second.  Maybe it's
so fast on your systems that you don't notice?

Message #40 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 08:55:03 +0100

>> For the record: I've just noticed the following inconsistency:
>>
>> The same Emacs (-Q) binary[1] have different behaviors on different
>> MS-Windows variants.  With w32-scroll-modifier set to nil:
>> * On Windows 7 and 10,  the scroll-lock key does _not_ toggle the setting.
>> * On Windows 2003 server,  the scroll-lock key _does_ toggle the setting.
>
> I cannot reproduce this here.  I tried on XP and Windows 7, and on
> both I see the LED blink for a small fraction of a second.  Maybe it's
> so fast on your systems that you don't notice?

No.  What you see is the same I see on Windows 7 and 10.  When I said
that the key "does not toggle the setting", I was referring to the
final outcome.  But the LED indeed blinks.

But as I said, from a Windows 2003 server[1], the scroll-lock key
_does_ toggle the key.  Hence the inconsistency.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

[1] FWIW: the windows 2003 server is a remote machine I access to, via
remote desktop, from my local windows 7 system.

Message #43 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 19:20:34 +0200

> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 08:55:03 +0100
> Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >> For the record: I've just noticed the following inconsistency:
> >>
> >> The same Emacs (-Q) binary[1] have different behaviors on different
> >> MS-Windows variants.  With w32-scroll-modifier set to nil:
> >> * On Windows 7 and 10,  the scroll-lock key does _not_ toggle the setting.
> >> * On Windows 2003 server,  the scroll-lock key _does_ toggle the setting.
> >
> > I cannot reproduce this here.  I tried on XP and Windows 7, and on
> > both I see the LED blink for a small fraction of a second.  Maybe it's
> > so fast on your systems that you don't notice?
> 
> No.  What you see is the same I see on Windows 7 and 10.  When I said
> that the key "does not toggle the setting", I was referring to the
> final outcome.  But the LED indeed blinks.
> 
> But as I said, from a Windows 2003 server[1], the scroll-lock key
> _does_ toggle the key.  Hence the inconsistency.

There's no inconsistency on my machines, including XP (which is
roughly equivalent to your Windows 2003).  On all of the machines I
tried, the LED blinks and Scroll Lock remains in its previous state,
as long as w32-scroll-modifier is nil.

Maybe that W2003 system has some software installed that causes this?

Message #46 received at 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 25204 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#25204: 25.1.50; I can't change the scroll-lock setting when
 Emacs has the focus
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 19:54:56 +0100

> There's no inconsistency on my machines, including XP (which is
> roughly equivalent to your Windows 2003).  On all of the machines I
> tried, the LED blinks and Scroll Lock remains in its previous state,
> as long as w32-scroll-modifier is nil.
>
> Maybe that W2003 system has some software installed that causes this?

Could be (I don't know).  Or maybe being a remote system managed via
remote desktop could make a difference.

Anyway, if no one else can reproduce this, let's forget about it (at
least for now).

Thanks.

-- 
Dani Moncayo

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