GNU bug report logs - #21704
25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention effects on `load-path'

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention effects on
 `load-path'
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 07:24:19 -0700 (PDT)

Apparently (at least from searching package.el and (emacs) `Packages'
and its subnodes), nowhere do we tell users the effect of using the
package system on `load-path'.  (Variable `load-path' is mentioned in a
couple of doc strings, but only for "internal-only" functions.)

There is this comment in the Commentary of `package.el':

;; At activation time we will set up the load-path and the info path,
;; and we will load the package's autoloads.  If a package's
;; dependencies are not available, we will not activate that package.

I think it is important (helpful) to explicitly make the connection for
users between `load-path' and the package system.  Please consider
making it clear.  Even just a statement such as the one in that comment
would help.

Here is one demonstration of the confusion that might be avoided if such
information were made more readily available:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2015-10/msg00331.html

In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2015-10-06
Bzr revision: a4a98a1b2568793ead43e824ecf227768759df12
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 `configure --prefix=/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk
 --enable-checking=yes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=-O0 -g3'
 LDFLAGS=-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=-DGC_MCHECK=1
 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include''

Message #8 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#21704: 25.0.50;
 Package (package.el) doc should mention effects on `load-path'
Date: Sun, 01 May 2016 00:24:30 +0200

Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> Apparently (at least from searching package.el and (emacs) `Packages'
> and its subnodes), nowhere do we tell users the effect of using the
> package system on `load-path'.  (Variable `load-path' is mentioned in a
> couple of doc strings, but only for "internal-only" functions.)
>
> There is this comment in the Commentary of `package.el':
>
> ;; At activation time we will set up the load-path and the info path,
> ;; and we will load the package's autoloads.  If a package's
> ;; dependencies are not available, we will not activate that package.
>
> I think it is important (helpful) to explicitly make the connection for
> users between `load-path' and the package system.  Please consider
> making it clear.  Even just a statement such as the one in that comment
> would help.

Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
load-path impact?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #11 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:18:50 -0800 (GMT-08:00)

> > Apparently (at least from searching package.el and (emacs) `Packages'
> > and its subnodes), nowhere do we tell users the effect of using the
> > package system on `load-path'.  (Variable `load-path' is mentioned in a
> > couple of doc strings, but only for "internal-only" functions.)
> >
> > There is this comment in the Commentary of `package.el':
> >
> > ;; At activation time we will set up the load-path and the info path,
> > ;; and we will load the package's autoloads.  If a package's
> > ;; dependencies are not available, we will not activate that package.
> >
> > I think it is important (helpful) to explicitly make the connection for
> > users between `load-path' and the package system.  Please consider
> > making it clear.  Even just a statement such as the one in that comment
> > would help.
> 
> Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
> load-path impact?

I'm no expert on package.el or its doc, but I think it should 
be mentioned somewhere where we introduce using the package
system.  We should mention what using the package system has
as effects.  We no doubt explain what it does wrt downloading
to certain locations (which you control), automatically
byte-compiling, etc.  The relation with `load-path' should,
I expect, be mentioned in the same general area of the doc.

Message #14 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
To: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Subject: RE: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 00:45:07 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
> load-path impact?

How about in Package Installation? (see attached patch)

[v1-0001-Document-more-details-of-package-activation.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #17 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>, 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: RE: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2016 22:40:47 -0700 (PDT)

> > Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
> > load-path impact?
> 
> How about in Package Installation? (see attached patch)

The location might be OK, but I don't see how that text responds to the
bug report.  I don't see how it "tell[s] users the effect of using the
package system on `load-path'."  It doesn't "mention what using the
package system has as effects [on `load-path']."  It doesn't even
mention variable `load-path'.  Does it have no effect on `load-path'?
Does it alter `load-path' (how)?

Message #20 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 08:30:56 -0400

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:
>> > Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
>> > load-path impact?
>>
>> How about in Package Installation? (see attached patch)
>
> It doesn't even
> mention variable `load-path'.

Huh? Did you read the wrong patch? (I've double checked that I posted
the right one)

+loading a Lisp library (@pxref{Lisp Libraries}); loading a package
+adds its directory to @var{load-path} and loads its autoloads.  The
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+effect of a package's autoloads varies from package to package.  Most

Message #23 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
Cc: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: RE: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 06:56:06 -0700 (PDT)

> Huh? Did you read the wrong patch? (I've double checked that I posted
> the right one)

My bad; sorry.  Yes, I read it, but clearly I didn't read it very well!
Yes, that seems to do the job.  Thx.

Message #26 received at 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
Cc: 21704 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#21704: 25.0.50;
 Package (package.el) doc should mention effects on `load-path'
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:37:41 +0300

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 00:45:07 -0400
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> 
> > Do you have a suggestion as to where in the manual we should mention the
> > load-path impact?
> 
> How about in Package Installation? (see attached patch)

Thanks.  One comment:

> +loading a Lisp library (@pxref{Lisp Libraries}); loading a package
> +adds its directory to @var{load-path} and loads its autoloads.  The

Please use @code{load-path}, not @var.  The latter is for things like
function arguments, which stand for some particular value, whereas
load-path is a literal symbol.

Message #31 received at 21704-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net>
To: 21704-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#21704: 25.0.50; Package (package.el) doc should mention
 effects on `load-path'
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 23:18:59 -0400

Version: 25.1

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> Please use @code{load-path}, not @var.

Done.

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