From unknown Thu Aug 14 02:48:13 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#9939 <9939@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#9939 <9939@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and Reply-To: bug#9939 <9939@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 09:48:13 +0000 retitle 9939 Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and <= du> reassign 9939 coreutils submitter 9939 abdallah clark severity 9939 normal tag 9939 fixed thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 02 11:15:14 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2011 15:15:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLcX2-0002SC-H6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:15:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYHW-0003nF-7U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:42:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYFD-00079L-8H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:40:31 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DEAR_SOMETHING, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:47333) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYFD-00079F-5Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:40:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:57291) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYFA-00013v-Kc for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:40:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYF5-000786-0R for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:40:28 -0400 Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:39625) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLYF4-00077l-UG for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 06:40:22 -0400 Received: by ggnh4 with SMTP id h4so9403553ggn.0 for ; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 03:40:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.12.201 with SMTP id a9mr4128811pbc.8.1320230421532; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 03:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.63.129 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 03:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 05:40:21 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 11:15:10 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Dear Sirs and Ladies: I am taking a course in Red Hat Enterprise Linux and have met with some difficulty interpreting the following statement in the man pages for several commands: SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. This is troublesome for several reasons. One, it is just too awkwardly written to be understood on the first reading. Second, the units are not consistent with the ISO/SI units-- K and M are in units of 1000, not 1024, because they are part of the metric system, not the binary system. There are other concerns as well, but if you could clarify the statement itself, they should be eliminated. Also, the statement "Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too." puzzles me, as I'm not sure what long or short options are, nor whether they apply to and . I'm not sure if your definition of "bug" includes errors in the man pages, but I do hope so. I thank you in advance for your consideration. All the best to you and yours, Abdallah Clark From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 02 12:03:29 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2011 16:03:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLdHk-0004G1-KQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:03:29 -0400 Received: from mail1.vodafone.ie ([213.233.128.43]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLdHh-0004Ft-Qr for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:03:26 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlcCAHFosU5tTn7m/2dsb2JhbAAMNpozjSSFDAEBAQMBMgFLCwsNCwkWDwkDAgECAUUTCAEBh361KokQBJlkjBU Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.79]) ([109.78.126.230]) by mail1.vodafone.ie with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2011 16:01:00 +0000 Message-ID: <4EB168F8.5060005@draigBrady.com> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:59:52 +0000 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig_Brady?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110816 Thunderbird/6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) On 11/02/2011 10:40 AM, abdallah clark wrote: > Dear Sirs and Ladies: > > I am taking a course in Red Hat Enterprise Linux and have met with > some difficulty interpreting the following statement in the man pages > for several commands: > > SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of > following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on > for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. > > This is troublesome for several reasons. One, it is just too awkwardly > written to be understood on the first reading. That's fairly clear to me. It's trying to convey that SIZE may be in the following forms: 1000 1KB KB How about: SIZE may be an integer, a unit, or both, with the units being: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. Not much better really. > Second, the units are not > consistent with the ISO/SI units-- K and M are in units of 1000, not > 1024, because they are part of the metric system, not the binary > system. Well we can't make that change for backwards compat reasons. > There are other concerns as well, but if you could clarify the > statement itself, they should be eliminated. > > Also, the statement "Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory > for short options too." puzzles me, as I'm not sure what long or short > options are, nor whether they apply to and . --long -s -h -o -r -t > I'm not sure if your definition of "bug" includes errors in the man > pages, but I do hope so. Yes it does. Though generally documentation complaints should come with suggested improvements. cheers, Pádraig. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 02 12:04:07 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2011 16:04:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLdIM-0004HC-Lw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:07 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLdIJ-0004Gr-8g for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2011 12:04:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA6EA60003; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tWcct17iHfm; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9CD439E8007; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:01:32 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/02/11 03:40, abdallah clark wrote: > the units are not > consistent with the ISO/SI units-- K and M are in units of 1000, not > 1024, because they are part of the metric system, not the binary > system. coreutils is supporting three notations here: SI-ish, IEC 60027-2 / ISO/IEC 80000-13:2008, and traditional Unix. So: MB means 1000*1000 bytes. This is like SI, except SI doesn't have "B". MiB means 1024*1024 bytes. This is IEC 60027-2 and ISO/IEC 80000-13:2008. M means MiB. This is traditional Unix. See for more info. (coreutils cannot use plain SI, since SI doesn't specify an abbreviation for "byte".) > it is just too awkwardly > written to be understood on the first reading. Suggestions for improved wording are welcome. We'd like it to be short, of course. > Also, the statement "Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory > for short options too." puzzles me Yes, I don't like that sentence either. Suggestions for improvement are welcome here, too. Maybe we should just get rid of it? I expect it causes more confusion than it cures. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 03 02:26:58 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Nov 2011 06:26:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLqlM-0006ga-Sn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:26:57 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLqlJ-0006gR-Si for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 02:26:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D921C39E8008; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pK3v+XUfb9e0; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27FF839E8006; Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4EB2339A.1050208@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:24:26 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/02/11 19:33, abdallah clark wrote: > am I to be able to use <1000*1000> or <1024*1024> in > either one of those commands? Not those exact strings, no. At least, not as far as I know. But "MB" is short for 1000*1000, and "M" for 1024*1024. > I saw that I could use other numerics, > even odd amounts, but nothing with an implied evaluation as the > description of SIZE starts off by saying. Sorry, don't follow. Perhaps an example would clarify? > I can see no rhyme or reason why I get lowercase K, or KB or > kB, etc. for the command, either. Again, I'm lost. Got a specific example? > The same goes for the statement on mandatory options. Just what is a > long option as compared to a short option? A long option is something like --ignore='*.x'. A short option is something like -I '*.x'. Typically, for every short option there's an equivalent long option, but the reverse is not necessarily true. > How do I know what is > mandatory from what isn't? Optional arguments are written in square brackets in the documentation, e.g., --color[=WHEN]. This isn't written down in the man page, unfortunately. It is described (not all that well) in the full manual, here: http://www.gnu.org/s/coreutils/manual/html_node/General-output-formatting.html#index-g_t_002d_002dcolor-791 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 03 13:54:31 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Nov 2011 17:54:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RM1Uk-0007Q5-QV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:54:31 -0400 Received: from mail-bw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.214.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RM1Ui-0007Px-6y for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:54:29 -0400 Received: by bkbzv15 with SMTP id zv15so908517bkb.3 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.139.8 with SMTP id c8mr9145173bku.97.1320342717033; Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.76.202 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:51:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4EB2339A.1050208@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EB2339A.1050208@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 12:51:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) Dear Paul, Thanks and more thanks must begin my message. I never expected this much support and encouragement. So much of what I have heard about Linux and UNIX shops is that they're closed-up environment where techs are not helpful and "you've got to pay your dues" is the daily mantra for new hires. Refreshing to see that the general community is generous. Thanks. In particular, your explanation of long options and short options was an epiphany, since I had learned the hard way that I couldn't combine options that have single hyphens and those with double hyphens. Further, I'd seen that options with only one character used only one hyphen and those with two characters, a full word or a hyphenated word used two hyphens. Your explanation gave me more material to confirm and expand upon that empirical denotation. Thanks again. I started off in computing by taking an Honors class (there was no AP back then) that taught us programming in Fortran III, so I understand the long-standing traditions of keeping things short. Variable names could only be one or two characters, so
, and are "old friends"! However, modern memory and hard drive storage capacities are such that descriptions in the man pages could be more helpful. Succinctness is good for folks who slip into "discourses" (unlike Voltaire ;-) ), but it would be great for newbies and those looking at a command for the first time to give just a little more in some cases. Also, as my instructor exemplifies, there are people who just believe in playing with the system and others who "use the book." Man pages and Internet searches are frustrating for a guy like me, then, as the quality of info is irregular. Almost no one tells you whether a command is root-level of authority only, or for general users. ??! One aspect of what I'm trying to say is that the man pages include examples in some cases, but in many cases they do not. Even when examples are given, many are complex and not illustrative of how to "just get it done." A simple example and a complex one would be best, but it's rare to see. For instance, the pages only show one complex example. I have never been successful using on my own for the simple cases, so I gave up on it. Why should it be that way?? Internet results were mostly verbatim copies of the man pages, so I was stuck. I can only spend a certain amount of time researching, as there is so much I need to learn and the Linux filesystems, admin tasks, other commands, vi/vim, RPM, GRUB, shell programming, etc., for the RHELSA certification exam. I figure that ought to one command that I understand fully, otherwise I would have never expended the effort of contacting bug-coreutils@gnu.org. So, yes, I really wish the command was one of those cases with examples, any examples at all. Let me show you some of my attempts at "hacking" and "playing around" with , although it's going to demonstrate my confusion, not my understanding. First, consider the actual extracted statement, as cited here: SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. So, I tried to use an integer followed by a character. That's what I meant when I said >> an implied evaluation as the description of SIZE starts off by saying Failure every time I tried to use the pattern: --block-size=3Dnumber+space+suffix Trying the command with numerical values and suffixes: Success, but no suffixes on the s= izes Success, but no suffixes on the sizes Success, but no suffixes on th= e sizes Success, but no suffixes on the sizes Success, but no suffixes on th= e sizes Fails; Invalid suffix in --blocksize argument '10kb' Also, when I run , the results have or or as a suffix on the filesize amounts, but the similar command gives or or . This is just one group of the cases behind my statement: "I can see no rhyme or reason why I get lowercase K, or KB or kB, etc. for the command, either." Another is given later, with the "hackings" that had suffixes without numerical values. Trying the command without any suffixes: Success, but no suffixes on the sizes Success, but no suffixes on the sizes Success, but no suffixes on the sizes Success, but no suffixes on the s= izes Trying the command with suffixes and no numerical values: Success, suffix on the sizes Success, suffix on the sizes (case is opposite of suffix) Fails; Invalid suffix in --blocksize argument 'kb' Success, suffix on the sizes Success, suffix on the sizes ( suffix expected, tho) Success, suffix on the sizes Success, suffix on the sizes Success, suffix on the sizes (case is opposite of suffix) Fails; Invalid suffix in --blocksize argument 'mb' Success, suffix on the sizes (case is opposite of suffix) Success, suffix on the sizes (case is opposite of suffix) Success, suffix on the sizes Failed; Invalid suffix in --blocksize argument 'eb' Failed; Invalid suffix in --blocksize argument 'eB' (differs from kB) G, GB, T, TB, E, EB, P and PB worked. However, Z, ZB, Y and YB all failed, despite what I see above. Error message said, "--block-size argument . . . too large" where the ellipses are the suffixes. Another set of issues revolve around the accuracy/precision of the filesizes. and were different only in the number of decimal places shown to the right of the decimal point, showing one place and the other command showing none. I tried a lot of combinations here, but I'll let this suffice for now. Oh, you should know that I'm running CentOS 6 at home (Kernel is 2.6.32-71.el6.i686 on my laptop and the 64-bit on my desktop) and Red Hat 6 at school. Bash is the default at both. Also, I found that the had a very different wording for the SIZE argument. Also, there was an equals sign given between each suffix and each numeric value. Now things got really weird, when I tried to use a suffix and a number, to attempt to understand the segment "may be one of the following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, . . . " Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dsuffix+space+num= ber. Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dsuffix+number Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dsuffix+number+asterisk+number Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dnumber+asterisk+= number Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dsuffix+space+number+asterisk+number (Error message: "ls: cannot access 1024*1024: No such file or directory") Failure every time I used the pattern --block-size=3Dsuffix=3Dnumber+asterisk+number (This last attempt was based on the material.) Since the number+suffix "sequence" worked in so many earlier cases, I tried that here, too, but every attempt to do so failed: Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dnumber+asterisk+number+suffix Failure every time I used the pattern: --block-size=3Dnumber+asterisk+number+suffix The following attempt to evaluate the asterisk expression had absolutely disastrous results: where the back-tick/grave accent encloses the value. Now, I saw a greater-than symbol on the next line as a prompt that accepted characters until was supplied. Then the following error message was presented: > -bash: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' -bash: syntax error: unexpected end of file Newbie me was very frustrated, to say the least. No smoke coming out of my ears after all of this, but enough midnight oil was consumed that I just went to bed, trying to forget about it all. Three lines of text really caused me a lot of grief and I still don't understand it any better than when I started, except for a few "no no, not that"s. I await your response to these situations and thank you in advance for your patience and consideration. All the best to you and yours, Mr. Abdallah Clark ls -alsi On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:24 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/02/11 19:33, abdallah clark wrote: > >> am I to be able to use <1000*1000> or <1024*1024> in >> either one of those commands? > > Not those exact strings, no. =A0At least, not as far as I know. > But "MB" is short for 1000*1000, and "M" for 1024*1024. > >> I saw that I could use other numerics, >> even odd amounts, but nothing with an implied evaluation as the >> description of SIZE starts off by saying. > > Sorry, don't follow. =A0Perhaps an example would clarify? > >> I can see no rhyme or reason why I get lowercase K, or KB or >> kB, etc. for the command, either. > > Again, I'm lost. =A0Got a specific example? > >> The same goes for the statement on mandatory options. Just what is a >> long option as compared to a short option? > > A long option is something like --ignore=3D'*.x'. > A short option is something like -I '*.x'. > Typically, for every short option there's an equivalent long > option, but the reverse is not necessarily true. > >> How do I know what is >> mandatory from what isn't? > > Optional arguments are written in square brackets in the > documentation, e.g., --color[=3DWHEN]. =A0This isn't written > down in the man page, unfortunately. =A0It is described (not > all that well) in the full manual, here: > > http://www.gnu.org/s/coreutils/manual/html_node/General-output-formatting= .html#index-g_t_002d_002dcolor-791 > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 09 06:38:14 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2011 11:38:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RO6Tt-00031B-3r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:38:13 -0500 Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.213.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RO6Tq-00030y-Gj for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 06:38:12 -0500 Received: by ywt2 with SMTP id 2so1608908ywt.3 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:38:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.16.193 with SMTP id i1mr4449783pbd.122.1320838680033; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 03:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 03:37:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 05:37:59 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) Dear Paul, I hope that you and your family are well. I'm doing fine and feeling like I'm making better progress on a few levels lately. Also, I found a set of simple examples for the tee command in a very old book that were quite useful. I was reading it for shell programming and it's index didn't even list "tee" at all, but they had four pages using it. Thank God for "serendipity!" I was wondering if you received my very detailed account of the issues I found with the command. It's been about a week since I sent it, so I wasn't sure what was happening. I saved it as a text file also, so it would be easy to re-send it to you if necessary. I am very curious to see whether my understanding of the option is the case, or if there really are errors/bugs in it. I await your acknowledgement of that e-mail. Thanks again for your consideration. All the best to you and yours, Abdallah Clark On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/02/11 03:40, abdallah clark wrote: > >> the units are not >> consistent with the ISO/SI units-- K and M are in units of 1000, not >> 1024, because they are part of the metric system, not the binary >> system. > > coreutils is supporting three notations here: SI-ish, > IEC 60027-2 / ISO/IEC 80000-13:2008, and traditional Unix. > So: > > =A0MB means 1000*1000 bytes. =A0This is like SI, except SI doesn't have "= B". > =A0MiB means 1024*1024 bytes. =A0This is IEC 60027-2 and ISO/IEC 80000-13= :2008. > =A0M means MiB. =A0This is traditional Unix. > > See for more info. > (coreutils cannot use plain SI, since SI doesn't specify > an abbreviation for "byte".) > >> it is just too awkwardly >> written to be understood on the first reading. > > Suggestions for improved wording are welcome. =A0We'd like it to be > short, of course. > >> Also, the statement "Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory >> for short options too." puzzles me > > Yes, I don't like that sentence either. =A0Suggestions for > improvement are welcome here, too. =A0Maybe we should just get > rid of it? =A0I expect it causes more confusion than it cures. > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 09 13:59:49 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2011 18:59:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RODNF-0006tA-26 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:59:49 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RODND-0006sy-1S for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:59:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B6AA60004; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EKHT8f1iZl8y; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1AA8A60003; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:59:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 10:59:34 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110927 Thunderbird/7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) On 11/09/11 03:37, abdallah clark wrote: > I was wondering if you received my very detailed account Yes, I got it, and I'm afraid that it was long enough and required enough thinking that it got put into my TO-DO list, which is a very bad place to be (I have hundreds of items in it....). What I was hoping for, is a specific proposed patch to the coreutils, in the format generated by "git diff". This patch would fix the documentation to make it clearer. Is that something you could do? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 09 17:48:49 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2011 22:48:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROGwq-0003fn-UJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:48:49 -0500 Received: from c-67-162-90-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net ([67.162.90.113] helo=kosh.dhis.org ident=qmailr) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROGwp-0003fe-Rr for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 17:48:48 -0500 Received: (qmail 21300 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Nov 2011 22:48:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20111109224839.21299.qmail@kosh.dhis.org> From: "Alan Curry" Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for To: clark-adc@clear.net (abdallah clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:48:39 -0500 (GMT+5) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) abdallah clark writes: > > I was wondering if you received my very detailed account of the issues > I found with the command. It's been about a > week since I sent it, so I wasn't sure what was happening. I looked over that message and prepared a reply explaining the things that you had misunderstood. Then I tried running your examples and realized that I didn't understand some of them either. According to my understanding, several of the behaviors you observed are bugs. So I deleted my reply and decided to wait along with you for someone else to explain it all. Since that hasn't happened yet, I'll go ahead and cover the main point: You're interested in altering the block size used in the ls output, but you haven't investigated what portions of the output are affected by block size. There are 3 instances of the word "block" in ls(1). 2 of them are in the description of the options that change the block size: --block-size and -k. The 3rd instance is under the only option that actually makes use of the block size: -s. A quick demonstration of -k working. First I have to set POSIXLY_CORRECT because the default block size when not in POSIXLY_CORRECT mode is already 1K, so -k is normally a no-op. $ POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 ; export POSIXLY_CORRECT $ ls -s /bin/ls 224 /bin/ls $ ls -sk /bin/ls 112 /bin/ls Since the -l output is not defined in terms of block size, ls -l and ls -lk will produce exactly the same output. $ ls -l /bin/ls -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 107124 Feb 8 2011 /bin/ls $ ls -lk /bin/ls -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 105 Feb 8 2011 /bin/ls Oops. Well, I know they used to produce the same output. And I think they still should and this is a bug. Anyone? > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: [snip] Quote what you're replying to, and put your reply in logical order with it. -- Alan Curry From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 09 21:08:35 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 02:08:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROK4B-0008Dd-9x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:08:35 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.213.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROK48-0008DO-7x for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:08:33 -0500 Received: by yenl7 with SMTP id l7so1369769yen.3 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.15.38 with SMTP id u6mr2358139pbc.37.1320890898273; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.20 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:08:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:08:18 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) Dear Paul, Thank you for the prompt response. In terms of being able to follow up with GIT DIFF, you need to remember that I am a newbie. I have no idea even what that it, let alone being able to reformat anything with it. I did a search on Yahoo and got over 8 and a half million hits on that combination. Hopeless, no doubt. The easy way to see the text is to just put it into a text editor and let no word-wrap be in effect. It was formatted beautifully when I was writing it. I spent a lot of time making the columns align and putting the experiments in logical groupings. I figured on hitting someone's frustration level a lot earlier. Thanks for listening so far, anyway. All the best to you and yours, Abdallah Clark On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/09/11 03:37, abdallah clark wrote: >> I was wondering if you received my very detailed account > > Yes, I got it, and I'm afraid that it was long enough and > required enough thinking that it got put into my TO-DO > list, which is a very bad place to be (I have hundreds of > items in it....). > > What I was hoping for, is a specific proposed patch to the > coreutils, in the format generated by "git diff". =A0This patch > would fix the documentation to make it clearer. =A0Is that > something you could do? > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 09 21:44:05 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 02:44:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROKcW-0000cV-DA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:44:04 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROKcT-0000bp-QT for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2011 21:44:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD6939E800B; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy7JEttS6jkh; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B84239E8006; Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:43:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 18:43:48 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/09/11 18:08, abdallah clark wrote: > In terms of being able to follow up with GIT DIFF, you need to > remember that I am a newbie. Ah, sorry, in that case, how about if you simply take the output of the command "ls --help", edit it to improve it, and send us your fixes. Thus, you can use the following shell command: ls --help > lshelp.txt to create the file lshelp.txt. Then edit that file to be the way that you like. Then send us the output of the following shell command: ls --help | diff -u - lshelp.txt so that we can see what edits you made. If you want to improve the documentation for other commands, you can repeat the recipe by using them in place of "ls". Please bear in mind that small changes are easier for us to review, so you probably want to avoid the temptation to reformat the text. The goal is to send us the wording changes that you'd like to see. It's probably best to start with one command, and maybe a simpler one, so that we can iron out the procedure without having to spend a lot of time on blind alleys. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 13:28:12 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 18:28:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZMB-0008Fy-V9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:28:12 -0500 Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.216.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZMA-0008Fn-Q3 for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:28:11 -0500 Received: by qadb40 with SMTP id b40so1446604qad.3 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.19.129 with SMTP id f1mr2983721pbe.3.1320949673119; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:27:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:27:53 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: Paul Eggert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) Dear Paul and others: Thank you for your suggestions, but not only are you not realizing what it means to be a newbie, you have also missed the point of my communication. Not only patience but also the consideration of others new to Linux ought to be in play. The SIZE notation is confusing and I have no idea how to "fix" it, since I do not understand what was intended and none of you have explained that. Instead, you have launched into a flurry of complications that do not help resolve that issue. I am not playing games with anyone. It is not my job to do more than report bugs or other problems, as the man pages indicate. Your earlier comment about the MB or M or MiB was a circular argument as well. If M equals MiB, then UNIX/Linux is not applying the conventions. If you cannot clarify something that is already written and cannot refer me to any material, anywhere that will clarify what the SIZE paragraph is saying, then please do not attempt to assign to me the task of rewriting the SIZE paragraph or any other part of the material. That is a task for an intermediate or advanced user, not a newbie. All the best to you and yours, Abdallah Clark On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/09/11 18:08, abdallah clark wrote: >> In terms of being able to follow up with GIT DIFF, you need to >> remember that I am a newbie. > > Ah, sorry, in that case, how about if you simply take the > output of the command "ls --help", edit it to improve > it, and send us your fixes. > > Thus, you can use the following shell command: > > ls --help > lshelp.txt > > to create the file lshelp.txt. =A0Then edit that file to be the way > that you like. =A0Then send us the output of the following shell command: > > ls --help | diff -u - lshelp.txt > > so that we can see what edits you made. > > If you want to improve the documentation for other commands, > you can repeat the recipe by using them in place of "ls". > > Please bear in mind that small changes are easier for us to > review, so you probably want to avoid the temptation to > reformat the text. =A0The goal is to send us the wording changes > that you'd like to see. > > It's probably best to start with one command, and maybe a simpler > one, so that we can iron out the procedure without having to spend > a lot of time on blind alleys. > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 14:05:05 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 19:05:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZvt-0000fs-AD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:05:05 -0500 Received: from mx.meyering.net ([88.168.87.75]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROZvr-0000fk-DA for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:05:04 -0500 Received: from rho.meyering.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rho.meyering.net (Acme Bit-Twister) with ESMTP id 4277F60076; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:04:50 +0100 (CET) From: Jim Meyering To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and In-Reply-To: (abdallah clark's message of "Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:27:53 -0600") References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:04:50 +0100 Message-ID: <87sjlv4x4d.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Lines: 40 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) abdallah clark wrote: > Dear Paul and others: > > Thank you for your suggestions, but not only are you not realizing > what it means to be a newbie, you have also missed the point of my > communication. Not only patience but also the consideration of others > new to Linux ought to be in play. > > The SIZE notation is confusing and I have no idea how to "fix" it, > since I do not understand what was intended and none of you have > explained that. Instead, you have launched into a flurry of > complications that do not help resolve that issue. I am not playing > games with anyone. It is not my job to do more than report bugs or > other problems, as the man pages indicate. > > Your earlier comment about the MB or M or MiB was a circular argument > as well. If M equals MiB, then UNIX/Linux is not applying the > conventions. > > If you cannot clarify something that is already written and cannot > refer me to any material, anywhere that will clarify what the SIZE > paragraph is saying, then please do not attempt to assign to me the > task of rewriting the SIZE paragraph or any other part of the > material. That is a task for an intermediate or advanced user, not a > newbie. If you are trying to understand how the tool works, a good first step would be to read the complete manual mentioned at the bottom of the man page: SEE ALSO The full documentation for ls is maintained as a Texinfo manual. If the info and ls programs are properly installed at your site, the command info coreutils 'ls invocation' should give you access to the complete manual. ls --help output (from which the man page is derived) is intended solely as a minimal quick reference. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 14:18:42 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 19:18:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROa93-0000yj-UT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:18:42 -0500 Received: from joseki.proulx.com ([216.17.153.58]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROa90-0000yY-LU for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:18:40 -0500 Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4527C211D1; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:18:25 -0700 (MST) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 186722DCD0; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:18:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:18:25 -0700 From: Bob Proulx To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and Message-ID: <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) abdallah clark wrote: > Thank you for your suggestions, but not only are you not realizing > what it means to be a newbie, you have also missed the point of my > communication. Not only patience but also the consideration of others > new to Linux ought to be in play. > ... > It is not my job to do more than report bugs or other problems, as > the man pages indicate. I am compelled by this to write that you are also failing to realize what is is like to share work on a community project. This is not a job or any of us. We gather together in a shared hope of improving the world by the shared effort of producing free software. The result is donated to the community. Think of it this way. There are several people working in the kitchen preparing meals. These meals are set out on the table for people to eat. Someone eats the meal. They think, there isn't enough spice in this dish. They complain to the volunteers cooking, "Hey, there isn't enough spice." The cooks say, there are thousands of people eating the food and some of them need a low spice content. If you like more spice please feel free to add some. Or feel free to come into the kitchen and help us prepare a good tasting meal that will be good for everyone. But please remember that some people can't tolerate a lot of spice. But then you say, it is not my job to cook. It is only my job to submit feedback. As cooks you should consider that people want more spice. Think about that and think about how you will react if you are one of the cooks in the kitchen? What would you do in that case. You are volunteering your time to cook. You are providing this service free and donating the result. Would you think, "No one is helping. Why am I doing this? Why am I donating time and effort and resources? I should stop cooking." > If you cannot clarify something that is already written and cannot > refer me to any material, anywhere that will clarify what the SIZE > paragraph is saying, then please do not attempt to assign to me the > task of rewriting the SIZE paragraph or any other part of the > material. That is a task for an intermediate or advanced user, not a > newbie. Do you ride a bicycle? If so did you learn from a book? Or did someone teach you? There are some tasks that can be learned from written documentation. But there are some things that are much better learned from a teacher. Riding a bicycle is one of those tasks that is better learned from a teacher than from a book. Operating a bicycle would be really scary to try to do if you could only learn from a book. It just isn't possible to sufficiently cover everything that you need to know all in one place. No matter how much someone were to complain about it. Operating a computer operating system is not completely different. Some things can be learned from a book. Perhaps most of it. But different people learn things in different ways. Sometimes people will learn better from a human teacher than from a written document. Perhaps you could find a computer users group from which you could get face to face help and instruction? I think you would really get the most benefit from someone who could immediately spot what you needed and then could react with the right words to help make the points clear. Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:08:21 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:08:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROav7-0002rm-9R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:08:21 -0500 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROav4-0002rZ-92 for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:08:19 -0500 Received: by eyg24 with SMTP id 24so3167184eyg.3 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:08:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.38.71 with SMTP id e7mr17080414pbk.88.1320955679458; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:07:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:07:59 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: Bob Proulx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) Gentlemen: That was already done, to no avail. Has anyone actually looked at that paragraph on SIZE and thought about what it means? On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Bob Proulx wrote: > abdallah clark wrote: >> Thank you for your suggestions, but not only are you not realizing >> what it means to be a newbie, you have also missed the point of my >> communication. Not only patience but also the consideration of others >> new to Linux ought to be in play. >> ... >> It is not my job to do more than report bugs or other problems, as >> the man pages indicate. > > I am compelled by this to write that you are also failing to realize > what is is like to share work on a community project. =A0This is not a > job or any of us. =A0We gather together in a shared hope of improving > the world by the shared effort of producing free software. =A0The result > is donated to the community. > > Think of it this way. =A0There are several people working in the kitchen > preparing meals. =A0These meals are set out on the table for people to > eat. =A0Someone eats the meal. =A0They think, there isn't enough spice in > this dish. =A0They complain to the volunteers cooking, "Hey, there isn't > enough spice." =A0The cooks say, there are thousands of people eating > the food and some of them need a low spice content. =A0If you like more > spice please feel free to add some. =A0Or feel free to come into the > kitchen and help us prepare a good tasting meal that will be good for > everyone. =A0But please remember that some people can't tolerate a lot > of spice. =A0But then you say, it is not my job to cook. =A0It is only my > job to submit feedback. =A0As cooks you should consider that people want > more spice. > > Think about that and think about how you will react if you are one of > the cooks in the kitchen? =A0What would you do in that case. =A0You are > volunteering your time to cook. =A0You are providing this service free > and donating the result. =A0Would you think, "No one is helping. =A0Why a= m > I doing this? =A0Why am I donating time and effort and resources? =A0I > should stop cooking." > >> If you cannot clarify something that is already written and cannot >> refer me to any material, anywhere that will clarify what the SIZE >> paragraph is saying, then please do not attempt to assign to me the >> task of rewriting the SIZE paragraph or any other part of the >> material. That is a task for an intermediate or advanced user, not a >> newbie. > > Do you ride a bicycle? =A0If so did you learn from a book? =A0Or did > someone teach you? =A0There are some tasks that can be learned from > written documentation. =A0But there are some things that are much better > learned from a teacher. =A0Riding a bicycle is one of those tasks that > is better learned from a teacher than from a book. =A0Operating a > bicycle would be really scary to try to do if you could only learn > from a book. =A0It just isn't possible to sufficiently cover everything > that you need to know all in one place. =A0No matter how much someone > were to complain about it. > > Operating a computer operating system is not completely different. > Some things can be learned from a book. =A0Perhaps most of it. =A0But > different people learn things in different ways. =A0Sometimes people > will learn better from a human teacher than from a written document. > > Perhaps you could find a computer users group from which you could get > face to face help and instruction? =A0I think you would really get the > most benefit from someone who could immediately spot what you needed > and then could react with the right words to help make the points > clear. > > Bob > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:22:28 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:22:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROb8l-0003Bi-Vm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:28 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROb8h-0003BX-4W for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:25 -0500 Received: from int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.12]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKM8Cd009202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:08 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id pAAKM7H9028243; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:22:07 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:22:07 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.5.11.12 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) On 11/10/2011 01:07 PM, abdallah clark wrote: > Gentlemen: > > That was already done, to no avail. Has anyone actually looked at that > paragraph on SIZE and thought about what it means? [Please don't top-post on technical lists.] The paragraph in question: SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. That first sentence means there are three valid forms: SIZE may be one of the following (suffix-only case) SIZE may be an integer (size-only case) SIZE may be an integer followed by one of the following (size-and-suffix-case) Next are the possible suffixes: KB is a suffix for 1000 (kilobytes) K is a suffix for 1024 (kibibytes) not listed: KiB is a synonym for K (the info pages list this, but as the --help output tries to be terse, we skip the longer spelling here) MB is a suffix for 1000*1000 (megabytes) M is a suffix for 1024*1024 (mebibytes) again, not listed is MiB as a synonym for M And so on means that: GB is a suffix for 1000*1000*1000 (gigabytes) G and GiB are a suffix for 1024*1024*1024 (GiB) Or in a rough BNF form, SIZE : integer [SUFFIX] | SUFFIX SUFFIX : LETTER /* in powers of 1024 */ | LETTER 'B' /* in powers of 1000 */ | LETTER 'i' 'B' /* in powers of 1024 */ LETTER : 'K' /* base ^ 1, for 1024 or 1000 */ | 'M' /* base ^ 2, for 1024*1024 or 1000*1000 */ | 'G' /* base ^ 3 */ | 'T' /* base ^ 4 */ | 'P' /* base ^ 5 */ | 'E' /* base ^ 6 */ | 'Z' /* base ^ 7 */ | 'Y' /* base ^ 8 */ (and if you have a disk larger than 1Y, I'm jealous) I followed that fairly easily, but I've also read the code that implements it, so I'm unfortunately biased. I'm not sure where you are having difficulties following it, which is why we're asking that you provide an alternative wording, at which point we can evaluate the two wordings and pick the strongest of both approaches. -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 15:34:21 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 20:34:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObKG-0003WL-Jp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:34:21 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RObKD-0003WA-GD for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:34:19 -0500 Received: from int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.25]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKY0S6012638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:34:00 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAAKXxNw019637; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:34:00 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC3537.5050407@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:33:59 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.25 X-Spam-Score: -9.7 (---------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, abdallah clark , Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -9.7 (---------) On 11/10/2011 01:22 PM, Eric Blake wrote: > SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following: > KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. > > That first sentence means there are three valid forms: > > SIZE may be one of the following (suffix-only case) > SIZE may be an integer (size-only case) > SIZE may be an integer followed by one of the following > (size-and-suffix-case) Just looking at this in isolation, how about: SIZE may be a integer, a suffix, or both. > SUFFIX : LETTER /* in powers of 1024 */ > | LETTER 'B' /* in powers of 1000 */ > | LETTER 'i' 'B' /* in powers of 1024 */ > LETTER : 'K' /* base ^ 1, for 1024 or 1000 */ > | 'M' /* base ^ 2, for 1024*1024 or 1000*1000 */ > | 'G' /* base ^ 3 */ > | 'T' /* base ^ 4 */ > | 'P' /* base ^ 5 */ > | 'E' /* base ^ 6 */ > | 'Z' /* base ^ 7 */ > | 'Y' /* base ^ 8 */ And here, how about: A valid suffix selects a power [KMGTPEZY] and optional base ('' or 'iB' for 1024, 'B' for 1000). Put together, those two sentences are slightly shorter than the original, yet still convey about the same amount of information. Here's the same thing in patch format: diff --git i/src/system.h w/src/system.h index 926def9..b7a5c5f 100644 --- i/src/system.h +++ w/src/system.h @@ -516,8 +516,8 @@ static inline void emit_size_note (void) { fputs (_("\n\ -SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following:\n\ -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ +SIZE may be a integer, a suffix, or both. A valid suffix selects a power\n\ +from [KMGTPEZY], and an optional base ('' or 'iB' for 1024, 'B' for 1000).\n\ "), stdout); } -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 16:27:22 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 21:27:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROc9Z-0004jc-Lo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:27:22 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROc9X-0004jL-5R for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:27:20 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816FC39E800D; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:27:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Py7D17succZP; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F85939E800C; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:27:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBC41A3.9040804@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:26:59 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110927 Thunderbird/7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EBC3537.5050407@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBC3537.5050407@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, abdallah clark , Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) On 11/10/11 12:33, Eric Blake wrote: > -SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following:\n\ > -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ > +SIZE may be a integer, a suffix, or both. A valid suffix selects a power\n\ > +from [KMGTPEZY], and an optional base ('' or 'iB' for 1024, 'B' for 1000).\n\ How about if we not bother to document the integerless suffix here? Similarly, we can omit the documentation for 'iB'. That kind of trivia can be left to the full manual, as it isn't needed to use the program conveniently and effectively. I realize that this'll mean that the 'ls --help' output isn't complete, but it's already incomplete by design (it's a summary, not the full manual), and this particular bit of incompleteness should be OK. On the other hand, what I think is most missing here is an *example*. An example can help communicate intent clearly and quickly to non-experts. I think an example would have helped Abdallah get the point without having to ask us what the sentence means. Given the above, how about the following rewording? SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10GB). Suffixes are: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 10 16:37:10 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2011 21:37:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcJ3-0004yf-O8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:37:10 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ROcJ1-0004yW-5W for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:37:08 -0500 Received: from int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.23]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAALanWa012663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:36:49 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.23] (ovpn-113-23.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.23]) by int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAALamRF014880; Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:36:48 -0500 Message-ID: <4EBC43F0.3090206@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:36:48 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.4 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EBC3537.5050407@redhat.com> <4EBC41A3.9040804@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <4EBC41A3.9040804@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.23 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, abdallah clark , Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) On 11/10/2011 02:26 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/10/11 12:33, Eric Blake wrote: >> -SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following:\n\ >> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ >> +SIZE may be a integer, a suffix, or both. A valid suffix selects a power\n\ >> +from [KMGTPEZY], and an optional base ('' or 'iB' for 1024, 'B' for 1000).\n\ > > How about if we not bother to document the integerless suffix here? > Similarly, we can omit the documentation for 'iB'. > That kind of trivia can be left to the full manual, as it isn't > needed to use the program conveniently and effectively. > I realize that this'll mean that the 'ls --help' output isn't complete, > but it's already incomplete by design (it's a summary, not the full > manual), and this particular bit of incompleteness should be OK. > > On the other hand, what I think is most missing here is an *example*. > An example can help communicate intent clearly and quickly > to non-experts. I think an example would have helped Abdallah > get the point without having to ask us what the sentence means. > > Given the above, how about the following rewording? > > SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10GB). Suffixes are: > KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. Hmm, and we already have "-k like --block-size=1K", rather than "like --block-size=K", so we are already gearing users towards always providing the integer. Like you said, your wording is incomplete, but still covers the most common use cases. I can live with it. -- Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 02:41:11 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2011 07:41:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RP8D7-0004mP-PQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:41:10 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RP8D0-0004ll-8Z; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:41:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BD439E800D; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:40:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ymY3WmmmciTN; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE2B839E800C; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:40:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBE22F4.4020904@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:40:36 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Meyering Subject: Re: bug#10016: ls -lk is wrong References: <20111110233532.20349.qmail@kosh.dhis.org> <4EBC68DF.701@redhat.com> <8739du1vic.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <87vcqqy0il.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EBD6B3E.7010903@redhat.com> <4EBD76B4.1040702@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBD8515.70007@redhat.com> <4EBD8E46.5010108@cs.ucla.edu> <87wrb6wejv.fsf@rho.meyering.net> In-Reply-To: <87wrb6wejv.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, 10016-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Eric Blake , Alan Curry X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/11/11 13:10, Jim Meyering wrote: > Do you feel like writing the patch? Sure. I wrote and pushed the following. The test case isn't elegant, but at least it catches the bug. ls: -k no longer affects -l's file sizes This fixes an incompatibility with POSIX 2008 and with BSD. Problem reported by Abdallah Clark (Bug#9939) via Alan Curry (Bug#10016). * NEWS: Document this. * doc/coreutils.texi (General output formatting): Document the new -k behavior, and --kibibytes. * src/ls.c (file_human_output_opts): New static var. (long_options, usage): Add --kibibytes. (decode_switches, gobble_file, print_long_format): Implement the new -k behavior. * tests/ls/block-size: New file. * tests/Makefile.am (TESTS): Add it. diff --git a/NEWS b/NEWS index 081989d..1b0f2f5 100644 --- a/NEWS +++ b/NEWS @@ -4,6 +4,13 @@ GNU coreutils NEWS -*- outline -*- ** Bug fixes + ls's -k option no longer affects how ls -l outputs file sizes. + It now affects only the per-directory block counts written by -l, + and the sizes written by -s. This is for compatibility with BSD + and with POSIX 2008. Because -k is no longer equivalent to + --block-size=1KiB, a new long option --kibibyte stands for -k. + [bug introduced in coreutils-4.5.4] + rm -rf DIR would fail with "Device or resource busy" on Cygwin with NWFS and NcFsd file systems. This did not affect Unix/Linux-based kernels. [bug introduced in coreutils-8.0, when rm began using fts] diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi index 2c33fe8..4531440 100644 --- a/doc/coreutils.texi +++ b/doc/coreutils.texi @@ -7127,10 +7127,19 @@ Append @samp{*} for executable regular files, otherwise behave as for @end table @item -k +@itemx --kibibytes @opindex -k -Print file sizes in 1024-byte blocks, overriding the default block -size (@pxref{Block size}). -This option is equivalent to @option{--block-size=1K}. +@opindex --kibibytes +Set the default block size to its normal value of 1024 bytes, +overriding any contrary specification in environment variables +(@pxref{Block size}). This option is in turn overridden by the +@option{--block-size}, @option{-h} or @option{--human-readable}, and +@option{--si} options. + +The @option{-k} or @option{--kibibytes} option affects the +per-directory block count written by the @option{-l} and similar +options, and the size written by the @option{-s} or @option{--size} +option. It does not affect the file size written by @option{-l}. @item -m @itemx --format=commas diff --git a/src/ls.c b/src/ls.c index 1b0c250..b8a09b3 100644 --- a/src/ls.c +++ b/src/ls.c @@ -479,13 +479,14 @@ static bool numeric_ids; static bool print_block_size; -/* Human-readable options for output. */ +/* Human-readable options for output, when printing block counts. */ static int human_output_opts; -/* The units to use when printing sizes other than file sizes. */ +/* The units to use when printing block counts. */ static uintmax_t output_block_size; /* Likewise, but for file sizes. */ +static int file_human_output_opts; static uintmax_t file_output_block_size = 1; /* Follow the output with a special string. Using this format, @@ -809,6 +810,7 @@ static struct option const long_options[] = GROUP_DIRECTORIES_FIRST_OPTION}, {"human-readable", no_argument, NULL, 'h'}, {"inode", no_argument, NULL, 'i'}, + {"kibibytes", no_argument, NULL, 'k'}, {"numeric-uid-gid", no_argument, NULL, 'n'}, {"no-group", no_argument, NULL, 'G'}, {"hide-control-chars", no_argument, NULL, 'q'}, @@ -1512,8 +1514,8 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) { char *time_style_option = NULL; - /* Record whether there is an option specifying sort type. */ bool sort_type_specified = false; + bool kibibytes_specified = false; qmark_funny_chars = false; @@ -1582,14 +1584,6 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) } } - { - char const *ls_block_size = getenv ("LS_BLOCK_SIZE"); - human_options (ls_block_size, - &human_output_opts, &output_block_size); - if (ls_block_size || getenv ("BLOCK_SIZE")) - file_output_block_size = output_block_size; - } - line_length = 80; { char const *p = getenv ("COLUMNS"); @@ -1689,7 +1683,8 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) break; case 'h': - human_output_opts = human_autoscale | human_SI | human_base_1024; + file_human_output_opts = human_output_opts = + human_autoscale | human_SI | human_base_1024; file_output_block_size = output_block_size = 1; break; @@ -1698,8 +1693,7 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) break; case 'k': - human_output_opts = 0; - file_output_block_size = output_block_size = 1024; + kibibytes_specified = true; break; case 'l': @@ -1937,12 +1931,14 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) &output_block_size); if (e != LONGINT_OK) xstrtol_fatal (e, oi, 0, long_options, optarg); + file_human_output_opts = human_output_opts; file_output_block_size = output_block_size; } break; case SI_OPTION: - human_output_opts = human_autoscale | human_SI; + file_human_output_opts = human_output_opts = + human_autoscale | human_SI; file_output_block_size = output_block_size = 1; break; @@ -1959,6 +1955,23 @@ decode_switches (int argc, char **argv) } } + if (! output_block_size) + { + char const *ls_block_size = getenv ("LS_BLOCK_SIZE"); + human_options (ls_block_size, + &human_output_opts, &output_block_size); + if (ls_block_size || getenv ("BLOCK_SIZE")) + { + file_human_output_opts = human_output_opts; + file_output_block_size = output_block_size; + } + if (kibibytes_specified) + { + human_output_opts = 0; + output_block_size = 1024; + } + } + max_idx = MAX (1, line_length / MIN_COLUMN_WIDTH); filename_quoting_options = clone_quoting_options (NULL); @@ -3025,7 +3038,8 @@ gobble_file (char const *name, enum filetype type, ino_t inode, { char buf[LONGEST_HUMAN_READABLE + 1]; uintmax_t size = unsigned_file_size (f->stat.st_size); - int len = mbswidth (human_readable (size, buf, human_output_opts, + int len = mbswidth (human_readable (size, buf, + file_human_output_opts, 1, file_output_block_size), 0); if (file_size_width < len) @@ -3767,7 +3781,8 @@ print_long_format (const struct fileinfo *f) (! f->stat_ok ? "?" : human_readable (unsigned_file_size (f->stat.st_size), - hbuf, human_output_opts, 1, file_output_block_size)); + hbuf, file_human_output_opts, 1, + file_output_block_size)); int pad; for (pad = file_size_width - mbswidth (size, 0); 0 < pad; pad--) *p++ = ' '; @@ -4672,7 +4687,7 @@ Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too.\n\ -i, --inode print the index number of each file\n\ -I, --ignore=PATTERN do not list implied entries matching shell PATTERN\ \n\ - -k like --block-size=1K\n\ + -k, --kibibytes use 1024-byte blocks\n\ "), stdout); fputs (_("\ -l use a long listing format\n\ diff --git a/tests/Makefile.am b/tests/Makefile.am index 5021c18..64366a4 100644 --- a/tests/Makefile.am +++ b/tests/Makefile.am @@ -415,6 +415,7 @@ TESTS = \ ln/slash-decorated-nonexistent-dest \ ln/target-1 \ ls/abmon-align \ + ls/block-size \ ls/color-clear-to-eol \ ls/color-dtype-dir \ ls/color-norm \ diff --git a/tests/ls/block-size b/tests/ls/block-size new file mode 100644 index 0000000..16ede04 --- /dev/null +++ b/tests/ls/block-size @@ -0,0 +1,173 @@ +#!/bin/sh +# Exercise ls --block-size and related options. + +# Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. + +# This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify +# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by +# the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or +# (at your option) any later version. + +# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, +# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of +# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the +# GNU General Public License for more details. + +# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License +# along with this program. If not, see . + +. "${srcdir=.}/init.sh"; path_prepend_ ../src +print_ver_ ls + +TZ=UTC0 +export TZ + +mkdir sub +cd sub + +for size in 1024 4096 262144; do + echo foo | dd conv=sync bs=$size >file$size || fail=1 +done +touch -d '2001-01-01 00:00' file* || fail=1 + +size_etc='s/[^ ]* *[^ ]* *[^ ]* *[^ ]* *//' + +ls -l * | sed "$size_etc" >../out || fail=1 +POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 ls -l * | sed "$size_etc" >>../out || fail=1 +POSIXLY_CORRECT=1 ls -k -l * | sed "$size_etc" >>../out || fail=1 + +for var in BLOCKSIZE BLOCK_SIZE LS_BLOCK_SIZE; do + for blocksize in 1 512 1K 1KiB; do + (eval $var=$blocksize && export $var && + ls -l * && + ls -l -k * && + ls -l -k --block-size=$blocksize * + ) | sed "$size_etc" >>../out || fail=1 + done +done + +cd .. + +cat >exp <<'EOF' +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1024 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +262144 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4096 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +2 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +512 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +8 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +1 Jan 1 2001 file1024 +256 Jan 1 2001 file262144 +4 Jan 1 2001 file4096 +EOF + +compare out exp || fail=1 + +Exit $fail From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 02:46:15 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2011 07:46:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RP8I2-0004u0-M4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:46:15 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RP8I1-0004to-CB for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 02:46:13 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25143A60001; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:45:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MBXzrzwDkyAP; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DF3A39E800C; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:45:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EBE242E.8010805@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:45:50 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EBC3537.5050407@redhat.com> <4EBC41A3.9040804@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBC43F0.3090206@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EBC43F0.3090206@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, abdallah clark X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/10/11 13:36, Eric Blake wrote: > I can live with it. OK, thanks, I changed "10GB" to "10MB" since it might refer to a RAM quantity I suppose, and pushed it: * src/system.h (emit_size_note): Reword for clarity. See discussion in Bug#9939. diff --git a/src/system.h b/src/system.h index 926def9..1cbde92 100644 --- a/src/system.h +++ b/src/system.h @@ -516,7 +516,7 @@ static inline void emit_size_note (void) { fputs (_("\n\ -SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following:\n\ +SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are:\n\ KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ "), stdout); } From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 04:47:13 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2011 09:47:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RPAB5-0007bN-Iw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 04:47:12 -0500 Received: from mx.meyering.net ([88.168.87.75]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RPAB2-0007b9-Bo; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 04:47:09 -0500 Received: from rho.meyering.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rho.meyering.net (Acme Bit-Twister) with ESMTP id 0D0D46002D; Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:46:46 +0100 (CET) From: Jim Meyering To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#10016: ls -lk is wrong In-Reply-To: <4EBE22F4.4020904@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:40:36 -0800") References: <20111110233532.20349.qmail@kosh.dhis.org> <4EBC68DF.701@redhat.com> <8739du1vic.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <87vcqqy0il.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EBD6B3E.7010903@redhat.com> <4EBD76B4.1040702@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBD8515.70007@redhat.com> <4EBD8E46.5010108@cs.ucla.edu> <87wrb6wejv.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EBE22F4.4020904@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:46:45 +0100 Message-ID: <87boshvfju.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Lines: 8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, 10016-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Eric Blake , Alan Curry X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/11/11 13:10, Jim Meyering wrote: >> Do you feel like writing the patch? > > Sure. I wrote and pushed the following. > The test case isn't elegant, but at least it catches the bug. That was quick. Thanks! From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 10:30:11 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 15:30:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQKxZ-0008Uz-Ti for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:30:10 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f50.google.com ([209.85.210.50]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQKxS-0008Th-Td for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:30:03 -0500 Received: by pzk5 with SMTP id 5so13049270pzk.9 for <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:29:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.17.193 with SMTP id q1mr59467035pbd.98.1321370952985; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.163.20 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:29:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 09:29:11 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and From: abdallah clark To: Eric Blake Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) Gentlemen: This situation is frustrating, but I'll exercise patience and comply. May I suggest, first of all, that if someone tells you they don't understand, trust them. If you were to show that SIZE paragraph to someone in your families who were not familiar with *nix, then it may be clearer for you what I am going through. I keep telling you that I am a Newbie to *nix, but that isn't getting into your comments. So, from a layman's point of view, you are suffering "expert-itis," being very comfortable with the subject and forgetting what it was like in your beginnings. Also, being terse will often obfuscate material rather than keeping it succinct. I gave up on *nix back in the 90's after seeing a presentation from Red Hat because it was too "messy" to implement on my own and came to te erroneous conclusion that it wasn't going to go very far. Well, I was wrong and not ashamed to admit it. I'm taking a course, rather than trying to learn it on my own, to make sure I get past any parts that are still messy. I am also not ashamed to admit that there are problems here and my contribution to resolving them may be minuscule. Like a reporter slamming against the Blue Wall of a corrupt police department, I'm getting a headache from the "That's the way we've always done it in *nix and no one else has complained about it" syndrome here [no corruption implied, however]. So, here goes. SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. That's a run-on sentence, jammed up with at least three different ideas that need to be separated. It also implies that one could use 1000*1000 and 1024*1024, which is certainly not the case. Talk about what does first, in just one sentence, if you have to, but let it be separate. You can eat a plate with a "rainbow of food" for health's sake by taking up each kind on your fork at the same time, but most people are accustomed to taking up a forkful of one kind at a time, yes? Explain what the suffixes mean in a separate sentence. My preference would actually be to omit that explanation. But you must recognize that a Newbie is not going to intuitively accept that M =3D MiB. We're used to kilograms being 1000 grams, which is the convention in the real world, but not the "UNIX universe." (I ought to link this to Orwellian/1984, but I'll refrain.) We may not be on the metric system exclusively, but that sort of explanation is going to be confusing. M =3D MiB looks too much like 2 + 2 =3D 5. Also, the command should be tested to make sure it works with KiB, MiB, GiB, etc. in a consistent manner. I didn't try it exhaustively, since I had already been confused enough. You really should change the man pages to be consistent, for our sake. Run them through an editor and search/replace that bit, since "being terse" about two characters-- -- is really not a big deal nowadays. Ensuring clarity validates this point as much as substituting a variable with now that we are no longer looking at 64 KB of RAM limitations in computer programming languages. Other commands I have found since looking at do not fail to implement this convention of KiB, MiB, etc., also. The man pages should "read the same." Examples would be good, at least one simple case and one complex case. I had difficulty with the command because only a complex example was given. Many commands give no examples at all in their man pages. Maybe it's a manpower issue, but is so important, let it be a valuable template for many other commands-- your best-case scenario and THE model. POSIX and BNF are intermediate or advanced topics. I have no ideas on what to do about them for this case. I have a B.S., not a Ph.D., in Computer Science. It was about breadth, not depth. I'll end here, before I'm blamed for giving too much text again. Thanks for your consideration. All the best to you and yours, Abdallah Clark On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Eric Blake wrote: > On 11/10/2011 01:07 PM, abdallah clark wrote: >> >> Gentlemen: >> >> That was already done, to no avail. Has anyone actually looked at that >> paragraph on SIZE and thought about what it means? > > [Please don't top-post on technical lists.] > > The paragraph in question: > > SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of followin= g: > KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, = Y. > > That first sentence means there are three valid forms: > > SIZE may be one of the following (suffix-only case) > SIZE may be an integer (size-only case) > SIZE may be an integer followed by one of the following > (size-and-suffix-case) > > Next are the possible suffixes: > > KB is a suffix for 1000 (kilobytes) > K is a suffix for 1024 (kibibytes) > not listed: KiB is a synonym for K (the info pages list this, but as the > --help output tries to be terse, we skip the longer spelling here) > > MB is a suffix for 1000*1000 (megabytes) > M is a suffix for 1024*1024 (mebibytes) > again, not listed is MiB as a synonym for M > > And so on means that: > > GB is a suffix for 1000*1000*1000 (gigabytes) > G and GiB are a suffix for 1024*1024*1024 (GiB) > > Or in a rough BNF form, > > SIZE : integer [SUFFIX] > =A0 =A0 | SUFFIX > SUFFIX : LETTER /* in powers of 1024 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | LETTER 'B' /* in powers of 1000 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | LETTER 'i' 'B' /* in powers of 1024 */ > LETTER : 'K' /* base ^ 1, for 1024 or 1000 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'M' /* base ^ 2, for 1024*1024 or 1000*1000 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'G' /* base ^ 3 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'T' /* base ^ 4 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'P' /* base ^ 5 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'E' /* base ^ 6 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'Z' /* base ^ 7 */ > =A0 =A0 =A0 | 'Y' /* base ^ 8 */ > > (and if you have a disk larger than 1Y, I'm jealous) > > > I followed that fairly easily, but I've also read the code that implement= s > it, so I'm unfortunately biased. =A0I'm not sure where you are having > difficulties following it, which is why we're asking that you provide an > alternative wording, at which point we can evaluate the two wordings and > pick the strongest of both approaches. > > -- > Eric Blake =A0 eblake@redhat.com =A0 =A0+1-801-349-2682 > Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 10:47:55 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 15:47:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQLEk-0000TW-Ss for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:47:55 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQLEe-0000TF-0j for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:47:48 -0500 Received: from int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.23]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFFkvqC019447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:46:57 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.151] (ovpn-113-151.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.151]) by int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFFkuGq017646; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:46:56 -0500 Message-ID: <4EC28970.9080503@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:46:56 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110930 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.3 OpenPGP: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig75FAEF981D25E9602AD341BA" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.23 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig75FAEF981D25E9602AD341BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [please don't top-post on technical lists] On 11/15/2011 08:29 AM, abdallah clark wrote: > So, here goes. >=20 > SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one > of following: > KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, > P, E, Z, Y. >=20 > That's a run-on sentence, jammed up with at least three different > ideas that need to be separated. It also implies that one could use > 1000*1000 and 1024*1024, which is certainly not the case. Talk about > what does first, in just one sentence, if you have to, but let > it be separate. Paul did just that: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-coreutils/2011-11/msg00088.html The wording in the next release of coreutils will have SIZE described in a separate sentence from the description of suffixes, and will include an example. SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes ar= e: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z,= Y. > Explain what the suffixes mean in a separate sentence. My preference > would actually be to omit that explanation. But you must recognize > that a Newbie is not going to intuitively accept that M =3D MiB. If you want to know as much as possible about coreutils, then the man page already tells you to read 'info coreutils "ls invocation"', and on the info page, we DO give lots of examples and describe M vs. MB vs. MiB.= But for a short --help example (which in turn is copied into the man page), it is sufficient to merely document the shortest (and most popular) two forms: a suffix letter in isolation is based on units of 1024, and a suffix letter + B is based on units of 1000. If you can provide a one-liner phrasing of that concept which reads better than what is already there, then please do so. > You really should change the man pages to be consistent, for our sake. They already are consistent. 'man ls' and 'ls --help' give the same information. That information may not be complete (for completeness, use 'info coreutils'), but what is there is accurate. --=20 Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --------------enig75FAEF981D25E9602AD341BA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOwolwAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nq0x4H/jUNJbyK02sTIjuB6FJ6jSa+ FW1+YeHz/jYZpImW6SSV2r5Qah6CCH6PRikNJ6/omQJuafzxkv4oJpRwLWSmRKJZ 7cZEsjcFM5TGBjBYAyobVYa77WsREwMj/z3wb1+gt8ShxYp931oJlqe8pH5JjUnX DreCtMun+Fr5k6W3XXnaHObBfZORAGM4sC17mG6tIpv54TRvE822iQRGmpGQQr6l pX1hVvz6B9KD9wUUOxM5ydNVVGC5Uujlvh3H4NJ7wA28NsLjdfikQwg/SqoQto16 8NLn9LK1L3OObvv5GMQXWxjcqY9JKyi53pfeDwCYQafv0iMScCD8Ike30udcnrg= =EtJh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig75FAEF981D25E9602AD341BA-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 11:33:56 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 16:33:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQLxI-0001W2-8C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:33:56 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQLxC-0001Vk-7v for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:33:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4ACA60002; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QBq+D9Ubhv1; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC0D2A60009; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:32:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EC29437.6030808@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:32:55 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110927 Thunderbird/7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abdallah clark Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) On 11/15/11 07:29, abdallah clark wrote: > Maybe it's a manpower issue We are short of people and time, yes. I've found your comments to be helpful in pointing out places where the --help output (man pages) could be clearer. We've fixed the SIZE sentence and I'd like to go onto the next issue. In your long message about this you write: Also, when I run , the results have or or as a suffix on the filesize amounts, but the similar command gives or or . That's not the behavior I get. First, I get uppercase M and G with either option set. Second, I get lowercase k with --si, and uppercase K with -h. But this is because SI uses lowercase k, whereas binary prefixes use uppercase K (yes, it's silly, but it's standard :-). The above quotation seems to be more a complaint about the *behavior* than about the *documentation*, and so I hope I've explained the behavior. This explanation is also in the full manual. I don't see a need for correcting the --help output (man pages) as they're intended to be succinct summaries of the full manual, more reminders to the expert than introduction to novices as it were. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 11:46:43 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 16:46:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQM9i-0001nX-JO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:46:43 -0500 Received: from senmx11-mx.siemens-enterprise.com ([62.134.46.9]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQM9g-0001nG-NJ for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:46:41 -0500 Received: from MCHP064A.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.37.63]) by senmx11-mx.siemens-enterprise.com (Server) with ESMTP id 418B71EB846E; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:45:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from MCHP058A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.55]) by MCHP064A.global-ad.net ([172.29.37.63]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:45:54 +0100 From: "Voelker, Bernhard" To: Eric Blake , abdallah clark Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:45:53 +0100 Subject: RE: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and Thread-Topic: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and Thread-Index: AcyjrekSTrZoLi1LRbukIZnAMKtRXgABb3RA Message-ID: <7856072A9D04C24B82DFE2B1112FE38A0D86E2484F@MCHP058A.global-ad.net> References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EC28970.9080503@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC28970.9080503@redhat.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: de-DE, en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: "9939@debbugs.gnu.org" <9939@debbugs.gnu.org>, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) Eric Blake wrote: > SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are= : > KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, = Y. I didn't jump in the discussion yet, but personally also find the multiplication confusing. I know, there's already been a patch, but what about the following? Bye, Berny >From d8819575ede3c4803787030869edaf865bd40711 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Bernhard Voelker Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:42:26 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] * src/system.h (emit_size_note): Reword for clarity again --- src/system.h | 2 +- 1 files changed, 1 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-) diff --git a/src/system.h b/src/system.h index 1cbde92..afb1a40 100644 --- a/src/system.h +++ b/src/system.h @@ -517,7 +517,7 @@ emit_size_note (void) { fputs (_("\n\ SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are:= \n\ -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y= .\n\ +KB (1000), K (1024), MB (1000KB), M (1024K), and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, = Y.\n\ "), stdout); } =20 --=20 1.7.3.4 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 11:53:45 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 16:53:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMGW-0002Ml-Hs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:53:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMGT-0002M7-LP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:53:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMFh-00072J-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:52:56 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:56281) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMFh-00072C-OH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:52:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMFg-0007Zz-MA for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:52:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMFf-00071y-LQ for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:52:52 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:48413) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMFf-00071s-CS for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:52:51 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63958A60003 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QL2TCWkWUXfr for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9AFA7A60002 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:49 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110927 Thunderbird/7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EC28970.9080503@redhat.com> <7856072A9D04C24B82DFE2B1112FE38A0D86E2484F@MCHP058A.global-ad.net> In-Reply-To: <7856072A9D04C24B82DFE2B1112FE38A0D86E2484F@MCHP058A.global-ad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) On 11/15/11 08:45, Voelker, Bernhard wrote: > -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ > +KB (1000), K (1024), MB (1000KB), M (1024K), and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ That would be fine with me. (I find them equally confusing. :-) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 12:08:53 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 17:08:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMVA-0003St-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:08:52 -0500 Received: from mx.meyering.net ([88.168.87.75]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQMV6-0003SY-Kp for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:08:50 -0500 Received: from rho.meyering.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rho.meyering.net (Acme Bit-Twister) with ESMTP id 88A7860048; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:08:07 +0100 (CET) From: Jim Meyering To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and In-Reply-To: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:52:49 -0800") References: <4EB1695C.5000203@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBACD96.4020509@cs.ucla.edu> <4EBB3A64.3080208@cs.ucla.edu> <20111110191825.GA2453@hysteria.proulx.com> <4EBC326F.2040902@redhat.com> <4EC28970.9080503@redhat.com> <7856072A9D04C24B82DFE2B1112FE38A0D86E2484F@MCHP058A.global-ad.net> <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:08:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Lines: 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Paul Eggert wrote: > On 11/15/11 08:45, Voelker, Bernhard wrote: >> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ >> +KB (1000), K (1024), MB (1000KB), M (1024K), and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ > > That would be fine with me. (I find them equally confusing. :-) I'm 60/40 for the use of "*" (i.e., 1000*1000), because with it, each comma-separated item is self-contained. In your replacement, each of MB and M relies on the just-defined "KB" or "K" notation. Without that context, they may be misinterpreted. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 13:13:20 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 18:13:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNVX-0007Fd-Oq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:13:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNVU-0007FR-Vd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:13:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNUk-0004dE-8i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:12:31 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:36470) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNUk-0004d9-7D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:12:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49045) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNUe-0000FG-Cb for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:12:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNUc-0004c7-LI for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:12:24 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:49860) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNUc-0004bs-0n for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:12:22 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Nov 2011 18:12:18 -0000 Received: from p5098db61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO zappa.ga.local) [80.152.219.97] by mail.gmx.net (mp055) with SMTP; 15 Nov 2011 19:12:18 +0100 X-Authenticated: #11967524 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18UkwQbyeIUCwt7R5PH4UhtSavgcU4Hk27PeJcL9Y LWTxF8rI+Nl84K From: Ruediger Meier To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for =?utf-8?q?=09and?= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:12:16 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> In-Reply-To: <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201111151912.16480.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) On Tuesday 15 November 2011, Jim Meyering wrote: > Paul Eggert wrote: > > On 11/15/11 08:45, Voelker, Bernhard wrote: > >> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, > >> P, E, Z, Y.\n\ +KB (1000), K (1024), MB (1000KB), M (1024K), and > >> so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ > > > > That would be fine with me. (I find them equally confusing. :-) > > I'm 60/40 for the use of "*" (i.e., 1000*1000), because with it, > each comma-separated item is self-contained. > > In your replacement, each of MB and M relies on the > just-defined "KB" or "K" notation. Without that context, > they may be misinterpreted. I also think the multiplier version is a bit easier to read. My preferred one would be something like this: -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are:\n\ -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ +SIZE is an integer with an optional unit, e.g. 10M (1024*1024). Valid units\n\ +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of 1000).\n\ I guess if we've had 20 chars more or even a whole line then it could be slightly polished to be really readable and clearly. ;) cu, Rudi From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 13:21:49 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 18:21:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNdg-0007S6-P3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:21:49 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNda-0007Rj-EY for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:21:43 -0500 Received: from int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.25]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFIKpCa020835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:20:51 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.151] (ovpn-113-151.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.151]) by int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFIKpc8013336; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:20:51 -0500 Message-ID: <4EC2AD82.3070205@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:20:50 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110930 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ruediger Meier Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <201111151912.16480.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <201111151912.16480.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.3 OpenPGP: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig18CCED91763B3B0E42998B18" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.25 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig18CCED91763B3B0E42998B18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/15/2011 11:12 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote: > I also think the multiplier version is a bit easier to read. > My preferred one would be something like this:=20 >=20 > -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes = are:\n\ > -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, = Z, Y.\n\ > +SIZE is an integer with an optional unit, e.g. 10M (1024*1024). Valid = units\n\ > +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of = 1000).\n\ Not quite accurate on 10M. But I think it does read a bit better. How about this tweak to fix the example, while still fitting in the line limitations: +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). Units\n\ +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of 1000).\n\ --=20 Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --------------enig18CCED91763B3B0E42998B18 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOwq2DAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nqh3cH+wSFRHNCkGi48ogiMYAL6K9n 6XGMRN60/ntm4BCM41XYhb3CSG1qmkmL84fpBhqfkJkcq8ENwZ3T34L4E69aHZc1 LnQTwxB/iJdkew5c2foffAxQaZVyzcPrbNP/E2nHpg4NIrTRuXIIWKSACkNEyp/S YBJ4hLLne5k4MtyPghdMt7DWQeoCil2EA3S6Ql4oDEM2PqycOWBZCwFfl182bb9a 013DBP4XKIEO6QSENOVCEcW+5xUVxCv23favYsKh8+2rIjvmPSvwbuBs2OOdfVtN hCQjNeadqqCvnimpEmio+FDQVznu6oKdF/E2/jmlh9kEOAUZ9xKsZPXxMkTEGJk= =bVZV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig18CCED91763B3B0E42998B18-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 13:26:15 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 18:26:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNi1-0007YO-Iw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:26:14 -0500 Received: from mx.meyering.net ([88.168.87.75]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQNhy-0007YG-Ns for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:26:12 -0500 Received: from rho.meyering.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rho.meyering.net (Acme Bit-Twister) with ESMTP id 4544260048; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:25:29 +0100 (CET) From: Jim Meyering To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and In-Reply-To: <4EC2AD82.3070205@redhat.com> (Eric Blake's message of "Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:20:50 -0700") References: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <201111151912.16480.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> <4EC2AD82.3070205@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:25:29 +0100 Message-ID: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> Lines: 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Ruediger Meier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Eric Blake wrote: > On 11/15/2011 11:12 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote: >> I also think the multiplier version is a bit easier to read. >> My preferred one would be something like this: >> >> -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are:\n\ >> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ >> +SIZE is an integer with an optional unit, e.g. 10M (1024*1024). Valid units\n\ >> +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of 1000).\n\ > > Not quite accurate on 10M. But I think it does read a bit better. How > about this tweak to fix the example, while still fitting in the line > limitations: > > +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). Units\n\ > +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB,... (powers of 1000).\n\ Go for it. Thanks to both of you. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 13:58:28 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 18:58:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQODA-0008Gg-Fz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:58:28 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQOD4-0008GS-De for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:58:23 -0500 Received: from int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.23]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFIva3G000890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:57:36 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.151] (ovpn-113-151.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.151]) by int-mx10.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAFIvZxS024227; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:57:36 -0500 Message-ID: <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:57:35 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110930 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Meyering Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <4EC298E1.3070300@cs.ucla.edu> <87pqgtco08.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <201111151912.16480.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> <4EC2AD82.3070205@redhat.com> <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> In-Reply-To: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.3 OpenPGP: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigB987FE7E39BE3CB585AC7D7B" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.23 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org, Ruediger Meier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigB987FE7E39BE3CB585AC7D7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/15/2011 11:25 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: > Eric Blake wrote: >=20 >> On 11/15/2011 11:12 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote: >>> I also think the multiplier version is a bit easier to read. >>> My preferred one would be something like this: >>> >>> -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixe= s are:\n\ >>> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E= , Z, Y.\n\ >>> +SIZE is an integer with an optional unit, e.g. 10M (1024*1024). Vali= d units\n\ >>> +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers o= f 1000).\n\ >> >> Not quite accurate on 10M. But I think it does read a bit better. Ho= w >> about this tweak to fix the example, while still fitting in the line >> limitations: >> >> +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). = Units\n\ >> +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB,... (powers of = 1000).\n\ >=20 > Go for it. Thanks to both of you. Ruediger, if you're okay with this commit being in your name, then I will push this: =46rom e36e6f2c6e95d6e23be805f7bab6c596b1818d22 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Ruediger Meier Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:55:23 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] ls: another reword of generic size note * src/system.h (emit_size_note): Use "unit" rather than "suffix", and move multiplication to example instead of in suffix list. See additional discussion in Bug#9939. --- src/system.h | 4 ++-- 1 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) diff --git a/src/system.h b/src/system.h index 1cbde92..ae8dcc2 100644 --- a/src/system.h +++ b/src/system.h @@ -516,8 +516,8 @@ static inline void emit_size_note (void) { fputs (_("\n\ -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). Suffixes are:\n\ -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). Units\n\ +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of 1000).\n\ "), stdout); } --=20 1.7.7.1 --=20 Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --------------enigB987FE7E39BE3CB585AC7D7B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOwrYfAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nq+EwIAJppin1Zs+U2b/S84U1vcoiJ aVcb/0DJKeQl2SL8BVvuI0vNlqRDI4ip40BvTvhG3S8tcjZg8I3WBQzDAlvEAiJ7 bLAH0rY+1NM/La7Si1k+k7IMQhW/9Gc6h4pWqNhht7e9Y+JzuZb5syWJLbvXhb7p Saf78lDdRQKFgWdXJocMpkg0F91rHpoWfQO7OKgjr+C2PCgPdkFYe+2cJZzLSCUt 0KHBcg0OPKKPDG1ewUrF6m4ZyHkzdYslBqPDGWGSVjofR/8g4/aqI//kEJPnGmBs 317ARIkvdG4iVSpmYnsU7mYxlWl02j4RX/XbDfnaNH+HbCPkc+9gSC9TlelUEfc= =wa3X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigB987FE7E39BE3CB585AC7D7B-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 14:10:17 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2011 19:10:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQOOf-000079-AF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQOOe-00006x-0d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQONt-00007w-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:09:30 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:57279) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQONs-00007q-Uz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:09:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43727) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQONs-0002UW-0u for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:09:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQONq-00007K-UU for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:09:27 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:39619) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQONq-000079-F7 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:09:26 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Nov 2011 19:09:24 -0000 Received: from p5098db61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO zappa.ga.local) [80.152.219.97] by mail.gmx.net (mp021) with SMTP; 15 Nov 2011 20:09:24 +0100 X-Authenticated: #11967524 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/M7WQZE1HMndszIKn6HqpvuUH8iqtC306YMih+Ko TLLU793qVp5RRI From: Ruediger Meier To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for =?utf-8?q?=09and?= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:09:23 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201111152009.23656.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) On Tuesday 15 November 2011, Eric Blake wrote: > On 11/15/2011 11:25 AM, Jim Meyering wrote: > > Eric Blake wrote: > >> On 11/15/2011 11:12 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote: > >>> I also think the multiplier version is a bit easier to read. > >>> My preferred one would be something like this: > >>> > >>> -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). > >>> Suffixes are:\n\ -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and > >>> so on for G, T, P, E, Z, Y.\n\ +SIZE is an integer with an > >>> optional unit, e.g. 10M (1024*1024). Valid units\n\ +are K, M, G, > >>> T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers of > >>> 1000).\n\ > >> > >> Not quite accurate on 10M. But I think it does read a bit better. Hehe, I guess I'd given up to fit it into the line if I had noticed it after 20 minutes trying hard tweaking it. :) > >> How about this tweak to fix the example, while still fitting in > >> the line limitations: >> > >> +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is > >> 10*1024*1024). Units\n\ +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of > >> 1024) or KB, MB,... (powers of 1000).\n\ > > > > Go for it. Thanks to both of you. > > Ruediger, if you're okay with this commit being in your name, then I > will push this: Yes, thanks for the fame! cu, Rudi From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 15 21:35:40 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Nov 2011 02:35:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVLf-0001on-UX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:35:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVLc-0001oa-Ub for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:35:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVKq-0005I2-8l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:49 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:59969) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVKq-0005Hw-4t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49819) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVKo-0005V3-OS for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVKn-0005HL-ST for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:46 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:48608) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RQVKn-0005H9-EJ for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:45 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 16 Nov 2011 02:34:43 -0000 Received: from dslb-088-073-119-036.pools.arcor-ip.net (EHLO dslb-088-073-119-036.pools.arcor-ip.net) [88.73.119.36] by mail.gmx.net (mp016) with SMTP; 16 Nov 2011 03:34:43 +0100 X-Authenticated: #11967524 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18eNZkgPuAeYT6VwcIbbgzXqlKvr8oP3iqBnhsCWB /6m8g0e25OYnTB From: =?utf-8?q?R=C3=BCdiger_Meier?= To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for =?utf-8?q?=09and?= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:35:21 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201111160335.21552.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) On Tuesday 15 November 2011, Eric Blake wrote: > From e36e6f2c6e95d6e23be805f7bab6c596b1818d22 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 > [...] > -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB). > Suffixes are:\n\ > -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, > E, Z, Y.\n\ > +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). > Units\n\ > +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers > of 1000).\n\ Reviewing this I see that the case "unit only without int" is not documented now. This has been changed already in 50e5d024. Probably no problem because it's only --help and not info page. Just want to note that. Saying "and/or" instead of "and" could make it narrowly but still not 100% exactly and more confusing again. cu, Rudi From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 16 09:49:29 2011 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Nov 2011 14:49:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQgnp-0003hf-D2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:49:29 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RQgnm-0003hW-Fu for 9939@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:49:28 -0500 Received: from int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.25]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAGEmeKF030917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:48:40 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.151] (ovpn-113-151.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.151]) by int-mx12.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pAGEmdTv008189; Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:48:39 -0500 Message-ID: <4EC3CD46.2040902@redhat.com> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:48:38 -0700 From: Eric Blake Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110930 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsO8ZGlnZXIgTWVpZXI=?= Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and References: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> <201111160335.21552.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <201111160335.21552.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.3 OpenPGP: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8FE2E28A64DB47BB13CDDD54" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.25 X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 Cc: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.3 (----------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8FE2E28A64DB47BB13CDDD54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/15/2011 07:35 PM, R=C3=BCdiger Meier wrote: > On Tuesday 15 November 2011, Eric Blake wrote: >=20 >> From e36e6f2c6e95d6e23be805f7bab6c596b1818d22 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 >> [...] >> -SIZE is an integer with an optional suffix (example: 10MB).=20 >> Suffixes are:\n\ >> -KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on for G, T, P, >> E, Z, Y.\n\ >> +SIZE is an integer and optional unit (example: 10M is 10*1024*1024). >> Units\n\ >> +are K, M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y (powers of 1024) or KB, MB, ... (powers >> of 1000).\n\ >=20 > Reviewing this I see that the case "unit only without int" is not=20 > documented now. This has been changed already in 50e5d024. Yes, and we made the change intentionally. > Probably no problem because it's only --help and not info page. Just=20 > want to note that. Well, it's also the man page; but again, --help and man output are for concise references, focusing on just enough to get the job done, whereas the info page is the full documentation and does cover the alternative. >=20 > Saying "and/or" instead of "and" could make it narrowly but still not=20 > 100% exactly and more confusing again. I think we've already hit a good balance of conciseness vs. understandability, and tweaking things to mention unit without int in the --help output seems counterproductive at this point. --=20 Eric Blake eblake@redhat.com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --------------enig8FE2E28A64DB47BB13CDDD54 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJOw81HAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nqo/0H/14Jwli6thXQdCvayUfTchxS n1aHEnl9fajLeEttYpUf8pdEMgLNYOUcVtmTA8Y3k1khwe6NoiXK3q9rR2MEJV60 3t3rlaoQZKRPFduykQ6vzejxlIlFtI7lWQJJCR/M6giB9qYnqFXm931nKst5TfZc HRw8PzLRYs2HRtpfHtXz52R9TZ91POG2B3sNH0AjkyW+6022Jf3DKLbe1SUc3Gk5 lOcus49CYIArKaWe1cJxuYWWhKB6H8ylcC1uCMp3odbGJ8X2VjycQg724eNlKU5z HAxmmIYiPYlm4q6DgTVoowzIEmz1790yop8b1+z5w6CbHltbJ6x2De7VAlbjd3s= =/Cgw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8FE2E28A64DB47BB13CDDD54-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 15 10:36:36 2018 Received: (at 9939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2018 14:36:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50881 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gC3z2-0001JK-0Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2018 10:36:36 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com ([209.85.215.174]:33496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gC3yz-0001In-OJ; Mon, 15 Oct 2018 10:36:34 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id y18-v6so9277445pge.0; Mon, 15 Oct 2018 07:36:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=grIytWE9ZU1Gqsc5WCI77znBIOmXFU0CEuVeeCiemvE=; b=WWKd8wLig1gfpRRgQmkBgtNA/prwLbPmmnORdnSLpRW5RM6GQbWLTH89esT45EOM/4 lP1PrSinhmfV/NC8N/7mgtLdpXgLVUW1iWn3APLJRbOstf10EdIgp9danuWjb1lt9889 QvgkipljTCzIFs3nPm3InARmDPziX2giIxcY6WhNKGBECNfvROSySG9bp36zM8f9+hG3 30d4kDP9rzvAgHxu7vCdSpY5QmWGn3WudjsqLL9c8dntmQufxoo0YJB9gRU1VKrOHC5B UyolC7XtoF/luWeHlUeI1lEXMv4wsyh6kVozbsQNahXP43frHyT3+l1SPrtgSc9IWwrD D+Ww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=grIytWE9ZU1Gqsc5WCI77znBIOmXFU0CEuVeeCiemvE=; b=HhPMvf5MFOTU8tRuV+xeZ6lh3ScZE6um+GQA1rt0uIWd3/chojj1os66H0Cr3X3Wyb oGIy/HE9wwpIJhB9jrtINMqxrhgP1DYY862ChMaulWVe6sbAHKSYWMI7tUn+xsF9+oe3 EQyjTfV9qhZ438PjPiwNbOeIvl3X9W8WlLNZ2NrrLwB39da1ZgwWRpIrnaK3oIrQb8Ek ZaVivcvqBp5MPJMvVA8OFc+QtTb20t0qJMgQS325sdDeftItoJkl+LmH2gGOk4UvD/PV lpAFLt757b/F5KYDVI6J5rOAx/64y7Ln2C6xr+C4G1RphZ52xAkhQJ1WbMVuL0w1mDXO uq4g== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojRXSgn2xo2Wf/cJPzfN/+QKk2GyinMiBPCDC5ShUw7BM9Oj5Jz oN/AkuXNs6Kwo9fJuoPCwQkXDo+ijfM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61xoRLKqr81fIIEX+mAYQbmtYzRfFtZtTf31kUtqhw+CcOUmorhHIA4mpiEzy9q6ZJRRVL6AA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:82c6:: with SMTP id w189-v6mr16177492pgd.211.1539614187285; Mon, 15 Oct 2018 07:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u184-v6sm14978596pgd.27.2018.10.15.07.36.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Oct 2018 07:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#9939: Problems with the SIZE description in man pages for and To: 9939@debbugs.gnu.org References: <87sjlpb5uu.fsf@rho.meyering.net> <4EC2B61F.1080103@redhat.com> <201111160335.21552.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> <4EC3CD46.2040902@redhat.com> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:36:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4EC3CD46.2040902@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9939 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 9939 fixed close 9939 stop (triaging old bugs) Hello, On 02/11/11 04:40 AM, abdallah clark wrote: > I am taking a course in Red Hat Enterprise Linux and have met with > some difficulty interpreting the following statement in the man pages > for several commands: > > SIZE may be (or may be an integer optionally followed by) one of > following: KB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, and so on > for G, T, P, E, Z, Y. [ ... dozens of messages and several commits later ... ] On 16/11/11 07:48 AM, Eric Blake wrote: > I think we've already hit a good balance of conciseness vs. > understandability, and tweaking things to mention unit without int in > the --help output seems counterproductive at this point. As such, I'm closing this bug as 'fixed'. regards, - assaf From unknown Thu Aug 14 02:48:13 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:24:08 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator