From unknown Thu Jun 19 16:16:31 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#9934 <9934@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#9934 <9934@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Reply-To: bug#9934 <9934@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 23:16:31 +0000 retitle 9934 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition reassign 9934 emacs submitter 9934 "Drew Adams" severity 9934 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 13:15:30 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 17:15:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHvt-0005Gu-Qa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:15:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHvr-0005Gn-PT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:15:28 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHtc-0005Wn-6e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:13:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:45126) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHtc-0005Wi-5E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:13:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:34341) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHtW-0000qm-H3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:13:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHtQ-0005VX-K0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:13:02 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:34213) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RLHtQ-0005VK-9t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 13:12:56 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pA1HCqvN023361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:12:53 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pA1HCqKj029693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:12:52 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pA1HCk9r028970 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:12:46 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.60.177) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 10:12:46 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:12:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcyYuXjeItdKNQMYRj+s+0Ew8/UwCw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4EB02895.0178,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) The definition: (defun region-active-p () "..." (and transient-mark-mode mark-active)) Makes no sense, AFAICT. The mark *cannot* be active unless `transient-mark-mode' is non-nil. The very definitions of "active" mark and "active" region imply transient mark mode. When transient mark mode is off, the region and mark are *never* active - the notion of "active" does not exist in that context. And since the correct definition: (defun region-active-p () mark-active) is so trivial, this function should just be removed. When is there ever any reason to test (and transient-mark-mode mark-active)? When is that value ever different from just the value of mark-active? In GNU Emacs 24.0.91.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-10-30 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/include" --ldflags -L"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/lib"' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 14:01:56 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 18:01:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLIep-0006L4-Rh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:01:56 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLIen-0006Kw-NA for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:01:54 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B0C186DEF9; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:00:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD811C001A2; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:59:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dUvm2mkyZ+E0; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:59:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-113-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.113.127]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:59:33 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 926CDCA29C; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:59:32 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition References: X-Yow: I'm protected by a ROLL-ON I rented from AVIS.. Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:59:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:12:45 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > When transient mark mode is off, the region and mark are *never* > active If transient mark mode is off then the mark is active as soon as it is set. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 14:15:52 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 18:15:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLIsK-0006ee-34 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:15:52 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLIsH-0006eW-Ij for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:15:50 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pA1IDPtj011181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:13:26 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pA1IDOOc024715 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:13:24 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pA1IDI85011439; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:13:19 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.60.177) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 11:13:18 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Andreas Schwab'" References: Subject: RE: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:13:16 -0700 Message-ID: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyYwAmngyOZZhkbTACrW/mBplewQQAAC1wA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4EB036C7.0060,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > > When transient mark mode is off, the region and mark are > > *never* active > > If transient mark mode is off then the mark is active as > soon as it is set. Prove it. Show me the code that supports such a claim. Nonsensical. If t-m mode is off, what does it mean for the mark to be active or inactive? Nothing. What user-visible or code-visible difference does it make whether the mark is "active" or "inactive" when t-m mode is off? None. There is no such notion ("active") when t-m mode is off. Never has been. Cannot be. You cannot have a distinction (e.g., active vs inactive) unless there is some _difference_ in behavior. When t-m mode is off there are not two states for the mark - no distinction. There is no active region when t-m-m mode is off - there is just the region: it does not have two states active/inactive. An active mark _means_ an active region, and vice versa. And activeness is indicated by highlighting. Deactivating the mark turns off the highlighting. This is straight out of the doc, and it corresponds with both Emacs history and, well, logic. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 14:52:38 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 18:52:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLJRt-0007YW-JF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:52:38 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLJRr-0007YO-Cw for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:52:36 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D42188A18F; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:51:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07711C00189; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:50:15 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnXvDfjsKwWh; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:50:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-113-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.113.127]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:50:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id E7737CA29C; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:50:12 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition References: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> X-Yow: You should all JUMP UP AND DOWN for TWO HOURS while I decide on a NEW CAREER!! Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 19:50:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:13:16 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > there is just the region The region does not exist if there is no mark. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 15:45:29 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 19:45:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLKH3-0000Lu-GC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:45:29 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLKH2-0000Lm-2Z for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:45:28 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pA1Jh7Nk023218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:43:08 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pA1Jh7GE005738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:43:07 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pA1Jh1pZ011860; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:43:02 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.60.177) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 12:43:01 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Andreas Schwab'" References: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:43:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyYxx47vfMvE2fqRbS1xL96kcMH+QABr3Kg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4EB04BCC.00FB,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > The region does not exist if there is no mark. Correct. And irrelevant here. When there is no region, a fortiori you cannot speak of it having two states, active and inactive. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 16:11:28 2011 Received: (at 9934-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 20:11:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLKgC-0000wt-CL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:11:28 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLKgA-0000wm-Dc for 9934-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:11:27 -0400 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id pA1K91SZ003146; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:09:01 -0400 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 82FDCB465D; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:09:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:12:45 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4028=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9286 : core <4028> : streams <697483> : uri <997098> X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934-done Cc: 9934-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) > When is there ever any reason to test (and transient-mark-mode > mark-active)? When is that value ever different from just the value of > mark-active? emacs -Q M-x transient-mark-mode M-: mark-active RET C-SPC M-: mark-active RET Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 16:44:37 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 20:44:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLLCG-0001kh-Vy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:44:37 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLLCD-0001kV-3v for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:44:33 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D994186DEFB; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:43:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F243C1C00141; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:42:12 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCwtA65dOeA5; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:42:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-113-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.113.127]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:42:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id CFB88CA29C; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:42:11 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition References: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> X-Yow: My pants just went to high school in the Carlsbad Caverns!!! Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:42:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:43:00 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) A non-existent region is inactive. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 18:29:06 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 22:29:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLMpM-00047N-QS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:29:05 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLMpJ-00046t-11 for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:29:02 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pA1MQeiL001217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:26:40 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pA1MQdeu026287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:26:39 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pA1MQXSP020132; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:26:33 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.60.177) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:26:33 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Andreas Schwab'" References: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:26:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyY1sHfBoD6XerfToqJHLmahr+zHwABpJkg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4EB07221.0040,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > A non-existent region is inactive. A non-existent region is simply... _not_. It is not a region, a fortiori not an inactive region. Or, rather, from false anything follows. A non-existent region is active. And inactive. And red, and president... It is a region and not a region. You can say whatever you like about a non-existent X, even that it exists!. If x is an element of the empty set, then . From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 18:29:06 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 22:29:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLMpO-00047V-6W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:29:06 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLMpL-00047G-1I for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:29:04 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pA1MQgYn001261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:26:43 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pA1MQftI027623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:26:41 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pA1MQZeT009380; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:26:36 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.60.177) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:26:35 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: Subject: RE: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:26:35 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyY0iIgqQQwS5C7RTmhnKe+8Z6YJwAAtiJQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4EB07223.003D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > emacs -Q > M-x transient-mark-mode > M-: mark-active RET > C-SPC > M-: mark-active RET You're right about that - my bad. And I do use (and transient-mark-mode mark-active) in my own code (cross versions). It is the name `region-active-p' that is a bit misleading. Outside t-m mode the region is neither active nor inactive. When `region-active-p' returns nil it does not necessarily mean that the region is inactive. It means that either the region is inactive or t-m mode is turned off. (not (region-active-p)) is really `region-active-or-not-t-m-mode'. Pre-Emacs 23, `deactivate-mark' had no effect outside of t-m mode (as the doc string said back then, `deactivate-mark' "makes a difference only in Transient Mark mode"). (That is still the case apart from FORCE, as the current doc string notes.) Mark activation/deactivation has no meaning outside t-m mode. (And `mark-active' does not really test whether the mark is active - see below.) Likewise region activation/deactivation. The two, region/mark active/inactive, _should_ be synonymous. Whenever one is (in)active the other should be also. That's unfortunately not necessarily the case, at least according to some function/var names. The doc should be more careful and clearer, however. `mark-active' has in fact the same kind of problem as `region-active-p': When there is _no_ mark it is logically impossible to speak of _the mark_ being active or inactive. (not mark-active) is really `mark-inactive-or-nonexistent', where "inactive" is only possible/meaningful in t-m mode. All that is really possible (i.e., with any consequence) to test for the mark outside t-m mode is existence/nonexistence. `mark-active' was (and is) a sufficient test whenever t-m-mode is on, and it makes no sense to test `mark-active' when the mode is off - other than as a test for the _existence_ of the mark (same as (mark t) in that case). The notion of "active/inactive region" simply makes no sense outside of t-m mode. You've chosen to consider the region to be always "inactive" outside of t-m mode, judging by the name `region-active-p'. But if it is _always_ inactive then there is no such thing as active in that context - there is no active/inactive state difference. Active mark and region is really a t-m mode thing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 18:48:11 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Nov 2011 22:48:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLN7o-0004aa-Uy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:48:11 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLN7n-0004aR-2X for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:48:07 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB186186DED6; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:46:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC0A1C00071; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:45:46 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OH9QHv15CtlO; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:45:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-113-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.113.127]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:45:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6660ACA29C; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:45:45 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition References: <2FDC1CCA19884DF29D77C76FB4415507@us.oracle.com> X-Yow: Am I accompanied by a PARENT or GUARDIAN? Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:45:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:26:33 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) The region has nothing to do with logic or set theory. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 01 21:28:30 2011 Received: (at 9934) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2011 01:28:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLPd0-0008Gg-JK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:28:30 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RLPcy-0008GZ-8I for 9934@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:28:29 -0400 Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id pA21Q1FI008991; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:26:01 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E8948592E5; Tue, 1 Nov 2011 21:26:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9934: 24.0.91; `region-active-p' definition Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 21:26:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:26:35 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4028=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.2.0.9286 : core <4028> : streams <697555> : uri <997241> X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9934 Cc: 9934@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) > It is the name `region-active-p' that is a bit misleading. Outside t-m mode the > region is neither active nor inactive. When `region-active-p' returns nil it That's false as well. (transient-mark-mode -1) followed by C-SPC C-SPC will create an active region. Nowadays transient-mark-mode basically only toggles the behavior between C-SPC and C-SPC SPC as well as between C-x C-x and C-u C-x C-x. Yes, mark-active is weird and messy and so is transient-mark-mode. The implementation is ugly, messy, and twisted. Patches to clean up the mess are welcome, but I see no bug here. Stefan From unknown Thu Jun 19 16:16:31 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 12:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator