From unknown Tue Jun 17 03:39:09 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#9899 <9899@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#9899 <9899@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.0.90; change in menu item representation Reply-To: bug#9899 <9899@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:39:09 +0000 retitle 9899 24.0.90; change in menu item representation reassign 9899 emacs submitter 9899 "Drew Adams" severity 9899 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 28 16:03:15 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2011 20:03:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJse3-0001Cj-1y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:03:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJse0-0001Ca-Cf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:03:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJsc7-0007Ow-Dg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:01:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:56701) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJsc7-0007Os-Az for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:01:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41575) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJsc5-000287-Tl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:01:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJsc4-0007Nh-I5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:01:13 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41783) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJsc4-0007NR-8A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:01:12 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9SK1A05013883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:01:10 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9SK19NN009021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:01:09 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9SK13xQ020761 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:01:04 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.41.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:01:03 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.90; change in menu item representation Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcyVrFSrHijDekAdQ1CU/Gd65mNVsg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4EAB0A06.014D,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) Apparently, in Emacs 23, you changed the cached representation of menu items. Scanning the C code in keymap.c and keyboard.c suggests that the caching of the key sequence is no longer done, and if already done somewhere else is ignored (skipped over). And yet, as late as Emacs 23.3, this remains in the doc (elisp) Extended Menu Items: "When an equivalent keyboard key binding is cached, the extended menu item binding looks like this: (menu-item ITEM-NAME REAL-BINDING (KEY-BINDING-DATA) . ITEM-PROPERTY-LIST)" That text was removed for Emacs 24, but AFAICT it was already untrue for Emacs 23 and should have been removed then. There was no such caching even in 23 AFAICT - no (KEY-BINDING-DATA). That's what I see in the debugger. Obviously, this change breaks 3rd party/user code that takes advantage of (KEY-BINDING-DATA). The bug I'm reporting is to ask you to at least mention this change in NEWS, or if possible in NEWS.23. I also tried to find some mention of this change in emacs-devel@gnu.org, but I couldn't find any mention, let alone a proposal and discussion. Admittedly, it was hard to search for this, so I might have overlooked a thread about it. This change is unfortunate, as it means that any code that wants to use the already determined key representation must take the time needed to look up the key afresh. For menu-navigation code such as lacarte.el, for instance, the key is included as part of the menu-item text available for completion, and this change means taking extra time, for each menu item, to look up a possible key binding. Why do you keep moving stuff to C, instead of moving C stuff to Lisp? Emacs should be as transparent and modifiable via Lisp as possible. That's part of its being "the extensible editor". You seem to be working against that spirit, which is the heart of Emacs. Why? In GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-10-24 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/include" --ldflags -L"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/lib"' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 28 16:32:37 2011 Received: (at 9899-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2011 20:32:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJt6T-0001wM-8n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:32:37 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJt6R-0001wG-Pl for 9899-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:32:36 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAJsQq05MCrTo/2dsb2JhbABCqWWBBoFyAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBW0D4kDBKFEhEU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,420,1315195200"; d="scan'208";a="144978206" Received: from 76-10-180-232.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.180.232]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Oct 2011 16:30:39 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 1B1E158E26; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:30:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9899: 24.0.90; change in menu item representation Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:30:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:01:07 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9899-done Cc: 9899-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > This change is unfortunate, as it means that any code that wants to use > the already determined key representation must take the time needed to > look up the key afresh. The menu code also needs to do that, so your need is clearly a need we do satisfy: just use `where-is-internal' (if it's fast enough for the menubar, it should be fast enough for your use). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 28 17:19:57 2011 Received: (at 9899-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2011 21:19:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJtqG-000348-W5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:19:57 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJtqF-000342-NX for 9899-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:19:56 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9SLHvlm026743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:17:58 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9SLHv4i002159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:17:57 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9SLHp42015633; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:17:51 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.41.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:17:50 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: Subject: RE: bug#9899: 24.0.90; change in menu item representation Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: <30194F9629E14673AA65DD82E1D04D1A@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyVsHlfZ6GZ+P9HRvKxIBilTJXl/QABR6Bg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4EAB1C06.00ED,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9899-done Cc: 9899-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > The menu code also needs to do that, so your need is clearly a need we > do satisfy: just use `where-is-internal' (if it's fast enough for the > menubar, it should be fast enough for your use). Well, yes, that's obvious. I wasn't asking how to get the key binding for the command. The bug is about not mentioning this change, e.g. in NEWS. This behavior and data structure were well-documented for Emacs-Lisp users, from day one. You changed them silently. It is the silently part that constitutes a bug. That's what we have NEWS for. In a project with community spirit, such as was the case for Emacs in the past, the change would even have been _proposed_ to the community for discussion before carrying it out. Regardless of the decision reached and who decides, you can only gain by opening things up to discussion. Poor Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 28 20:46:59 2011 Received: (at 9899) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2011 00:47:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJx4d-0007ny-Hi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:46:59 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJx4a-0007nr-Hr for 9899@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:46:57 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ak0JAFFMq05MCrTo/2dsb2JhbABCqFWBEIEGgXIBAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSQth2i0EokDBKFEhEU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,421,1315195200"; d="scan'208";a="145016170" Received: from 76-10-180-232.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.180.232]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Oct 2011 20:44:56 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 09A3158E26; Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#9899: 24.0.90; change in menu item representation Message-ID: References: <30194F9629E14673AA65DD82E1D04D1A@us.oracle.com> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:44:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: <30194F9629E14673AA65DD82E1D04D1A@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:17:54 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9899 Cc: 9899@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > The bug is about not mentioning this change, e.g. in NEWS. Ah, OK. Done. Stefan From unknown Tue Jun 17 03:39:09 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator