From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:49:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13196513255190 (code B ref -1); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:49:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 17:48:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7am-0001Le-Pv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:48:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7ak-0001LS-QD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:48:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7Yy-0008UC-Ui for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:54 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:39353) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7Yy-0008U8-TB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43682) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7Yx-0003s0-SF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:52 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7Yw-0008Tu-Hw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:51 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:63142) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ7Yw-0008Tq-AA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:46:50 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9QHkmMm020942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:46:49 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9QHkm3B021766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 17:46:48 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9QHkgHj002412 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:46:42 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:46:42 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:46:43 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcyUBzk1f0/SrV1uR7qhoAskfv7m1A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4EA84789.010D:SCFMA922111,ss=1,re=-4.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) This is ridiculous. Can't you define a simple UI for sending a bug report using emacs -Q? It goes from bad to worse! Not only do users still need to jump through the same silly hoops (edit the `From' field from its "...tickle" silliness, etc.), but now you make them answer another question, with 4 paragraphs(!) of explanation to try to make it clear. Those paragraphs alone should be a signal to you that you are on the WRONG TRACK. "Send mail via: Emacs is about to send an email message, but it has not been configured for sending email. To tell Emacs how to send email: - Type `mail client' to start your default email client and pass it the message text. - Type `smtp' to send mail directly to an "outgoing mail" server. (Emacs may prompt you for SMTP settings). Emacs will record your selection and will use it thereafter. To change it later, customize the option `send-mail-function'." And no, Emacs is NOT "about to send an email message" - not if you use your own mail client. You are still so Gnus-centric that you cannot see the forest for the trees. Users reporting a bug with emacs -Q SHOULD NOT HAVE TO "tell Emacs how to send email". Emacs does NOT need to know how to send email if a user has a mail client. And Emacs does NOT need to SEND email in that case. And NO, Emacs will NOT record your selection and use it thereafter. Not if you are using emacs -Q. This boilerplate is totally inappropriate for emacs -Q, and it should be removed even when a user init file is used. You need to totally rethink/redesign this nonsense. There was ZERO problem in prior Emacs releases: Users could send a bug report using emacs -Q without jumping through ANY hoops. This is only a regression. You made a giant leap BACKWARD. Now you've moved even further BACKWARD. And you're still headed BACKWARD. Try to think of the USERS. Think of a newbie who tries to help you by sending a bug report using emacs -Q (as you request). And stop thinking so much about promoting Emacs as an email client - that has, apparently, been behind all of this misguided silliness. In GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-10-24 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include" -I"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/include" --ldflags -L"D:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/lib"' From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:19:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.13196531297894 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 18:19:01 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 18:18:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ83s-00023H-Ox for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:18:48 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ83o-000231-SU for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:18:46 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EANhNqE5MCrTo/2dsb2JhbABCqUuBBoFuAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBO1JYhqBKFAhEU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,410,1315195200"; d="scan'208";a="144608995" Received: from 76-10-180-232.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.180.232]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 26 Oct 2011 14:16:55 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C602E59011; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:16:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:16:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:46:43 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > Not only do users still need to jump through the same silly hoops (edit > the `From' field from its "...tickle" silliness, etc.), but now you make This bug is still open indeed. Lars said he hand an idea of how to work around it, but I haven't heard from him since. > And no, Emacs is NOT "about to send an email message" Yes it is. The message is currently in an Emacs buffer and it needs to go to the destination host, and a command told Emacs to "do it". So yes, it's about to send an email. Maybe it will do so via the user's MUA with some user interaction along the way, tho. If you can suggest better wording, please do. > Users reporting a bug with emacs -Q SHOULD NOT HAVE TO "tell Emacs how > to send email". Hmm... should I call that "mail client centric"? There is no reliable way to send email in general without asking the user. It sucks, but that's how it is. Please please please pretty please stop bitching about it because there is nothing we can do about it. > Emacs does NOT need to know how to send email if a user > has a mail client. What is that I see? Oh, right an "if", great! > And NO, Emacs will NOT record your selection and use it thereafter. Not > if you are using emacs -Q. Then don't use "emacs -Q" to send bug reports. It's an idiotic idea anyway. > You need to totally rethink/redesign this nonsense. And you need to totally rethink your attitude and use of the caps lock key. Setfan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:06:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131965594112256 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:06:01 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 19:05:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ8nF-0003Bd-8W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:05:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ8nD-0003BF-94 for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:05:40 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTO00C00S5OVE00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:03:32 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTO00C0KSXVMFC0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:03:32 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:03:39 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:46:43 -0700 > > And NO, Emacs will NOT record your selection and use it thereafter. Yes, it will: if you send another message from the same Emacs session, it will not ask you again. Or would you suggest that we add a few more question about whether to store the info on a file? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 26 15:07:57 2011 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 19:07:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ8pR-0003Fn-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:07:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10] ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ8pM-0003FZ-O1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:07:55 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ8ng-0000W4-Cc for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:06:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:06:08 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 9074 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) merge 9877 9074 From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:06:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131965955920508 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:06:01 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 20:05:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9ja-0005Ki-SX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:05:59 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9jZ-0005KX-W3 for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:05:58 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9QK46SH016670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:04:07 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9QK4506026469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:04:06 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9QK3xwK021595; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:04:00 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:03:59 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:04:00 -0700 Message-ID: <10A68B026F2443F79B12B4F45B6FFDA6@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyUEgMl7pnP54ypSWSX///jYg4sAAABwbSQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4EA867B7.0128,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > > And NO, Emacs will NOT record your selection and use it thereafter. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Yes, it will: if you send another message from the same Emacs session, > it will not ask you again. I stand corrected, if "thereafter" is necessarily limited in meaning to the same Emacs session. Otherwise, no, the text is misleading and inaccurate. As is the subsequent text: "To change it later, customize the option `send-mail-function'." If you are talking about the `emacs -Q' session, then that text too is inaccurate - it does not apply. Or is the user supposed to guess that you are suddenly switching from same-session "thereafter" to future session "later"? You are apparently seeking to defend this inaccuracy at all costs. Why not just recognize it and fix it, instead? Just say what really happens: If `emacs -Q' then you won't be bugged again for the rest of the session. Otherwise, you won't ever be bugged again. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:11:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Stefan Monnier'" Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131965981020983 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:11:01 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 20:10:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9ne-0005SO-53 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:10:10 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9nc-0005SC-1z for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:10:08 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9QK8GV0031133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:08:17 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9QK8G1g005673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:08:16 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9QK8AgR024859; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:08:10 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:08:10 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:08:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyUC3Z3Bajyxe2DRRS8WnKeBM+b5QAARvcQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4EA868B1.015F:SCFMA922111,ss=1,re=-4.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > > Users reporting a bug with emacs -Q SHOULD NOT HAVE TO > > "tell Emacs how to send email". > > Hmm... should I call that "mail client centric"? No, call it "keep it simple" and "don't `fix' what ain't broke". > There is no reliable way to send email in general without asking > the user. Tell that to Emacs up through version 23. > > Emacs does NOT need to know how to send email if a user > > has a mail client. > > What is that I see? Oh, right an "if", great! And yet, even _if_ a user has a mail client s?he _still_ has to tell Emacs (now) how to send email. That's the point. Not "great!". And that "if" is a commonly satisfied "if", and it is becoming ever more common with the widespread use of mobile devices. Save the configuration of Emacs-as-emailer for when a user _asks_ how to configure it as an emailer: on demand only. > > And NO, Emacs will NOT record your selection and use it > > thereafter. Not if you are using emacs -Q. > > Then don't use "emacs -Q" to send bug reports. It's an > idiotic idea anyway. 1. The text makes no sense if you are reporting a bug with `emacs -Q'. That's the point. 2. No, it is not an idiotic idea to use `emacs -Q to send bug reports. In fact: "If at all possible, give a full recipe for an Emacs started with the `-Q' option (*note Initial Options::). This bypasses your `.emacs' customizations." -- `(emacs) Checklist' That's about the recipe, admittedly. But Emacs also automatically inserts lots of info about the current session into the mail body. Obviously, if the recipe is for `emacs -Q', it makes sense for this session info to also reflect that same context. Marshalling and sending session settings for a context that is totally different from that of the recipe is at best useless and at worst misleading and error prone. Not to mention that if you go to the trouble of reproducing the problem with `emacs -Q' then you might as well report it from that same session. Not to want to clearly, cleanly, and simply support reporting bugs from an `emacs -Q' session is truly misguided. With that outlook, you might as well remove sending a bug report from the Help menu when `emacs -Q', and have `report-emacs-bug' simply raise an error if invoked from an `emacs -Q' session. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131966038821873 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:20:01 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 20:19:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9wy-0005gk-62 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:19:48 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJ9wv-0005gU-4z for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:19:46 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTO00000W9DLT00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:17:03 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTO00MC0WCESFI0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:17:03 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:17:10 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <10A68B026F2443F79B12B4F45B6FFDA6@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83ty6vbj95.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> <10A68B026F2443F79B12B4F45B6FFDA6@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <9877@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:04:00 -0700 > > Just say what really happens: If `emacs -Q' then you won't be bugged again for > the rest of the session. Otherwise, you won't ever be bugged again. Which is longer and more confusing. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131966085622570 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 20:27:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJA4V-0005rz-W4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:27:36 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJA4T-0005rm-Aj for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:27:34 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9QKPffE012742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:25:42 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9QKPeVo002955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:25:41 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9QKPZkm023560; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:25:35 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:25:34 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> <10A68B026F2443F79B12B4F45B6FFDA6@us.oracle.com> <83ty6vbj95.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:25:35 -0700 Message-ID: <614527B4E2B14D84A83001F111CE3009@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83ty6vbj95.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyUHF0rQjjJOrRlTFiykV8iwDhrDwAAIu7A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4EA86CC6.0144,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > Which is longer and more confusing. Which is yet another sign that this UI is unclean, inherently confusing, and overly complicated. If you have to distinguish `emacs -Q' in various ways in the instructions for reporting a bug, in order to make things clear, then something is wrong. Keep it simple, as before: `C-c C-c y'. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Stefan Monnier'" Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.131966194224295 (code B ref 9877); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Oct 2011 20:45:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJAM1-0006Jo-Gd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:45:41 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJALy-0006Ja-4r for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:45:38 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9QKhkH6010751 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:43:46 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9QKhiqN007047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:43:45 GMT Received: from abhmt115.oracle.com (abhmt115.oracle.com [141.146.116.67]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9QKhdan005530; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:43:39 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:43:38 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:43:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcyUC3Z3Bajyxe2DRRS8WnKeBM+b5QAEwJVA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4EA87103.0041,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > Please please please pretty please stop bitching about it > because there is nothing we can do about it. If it weren't for such bug reports you never would have addressed any of the problems with this that you've tried to tackle so far. We'd still be stuck with Lars's original bass ackwards questionaire from Hell. That's quite clear from the fact (yes) that it took several raisings of the question over a period of more than a year, those complaints/reports being separated by long periods of waiting for some progress. If you focus more on users and the quality of the product you'll have a better attitude toward and appreciation of "bitching" by users. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:53:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9877: 24.0.90; `report-emacs-bug' is even more broken now Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 04:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 9877@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 9877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9877.13196880927229 (code B ref 9877); Thu, 27 Oct 2011 04:02:02 +0000 Received: (at 9877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2011 04:01:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJH9o-0001sY-I7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:01:32 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJH9l-0001sL-QS for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:01:30 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTP00400HNP8Q00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9877@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:59:36 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTP003PEHRBUO90@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:59:36 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:59:43 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <614527B4E2B14D84A83001F111CE3009@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83sjmfaxu8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83wrbrbmno.fsf@gnu.org> <10A68B026F2443F79B12B4F45B6FFDA6@us.oracle.com> <83ty6vbj95.fsf@gnu.org> <614527B4E2B14D84A83001F111CE3009@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <9877@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:25:35 -0700 > > If you have to distinguish `emacs -Q' in various ways in the instructions for > reporting a bug, in order to make things clear But we don't have to. The text is correct as written.