From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 02:45:37 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 06:45:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPuB-0005wc-AF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:45:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPu6-0005wO-LJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:45:32 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPt0-0005Xy-Tv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:44:24 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:60300) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPt0-0005Xt-NR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:44:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:47978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPsy-0006KV-QP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:44:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPsx-0005XM-2N for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:44:20 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:34287) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPsw-0005XB-Rb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:44:18 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9J6iF41016597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:44:17 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9J6aETZ019706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:36:15 GMT Received: from abhmt101.oracle.com (abhmt101.oracle.com [141.146.116.53]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9J6i93v021862 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:44:10 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.62.115) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:44:09 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:44:15 -0700 Message-ID: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcyOKoR2rozwKyJrQyK+4CSzdH0BDw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4E9E71C1.00F5,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) emacs -Q M-: (format-time-string "Started: %a %b %e %T %Y (%Z)" (current-time)) For me that produces this: "Started: Tue Oct 18 23:40:28 2011 ()" The %Z doesn't work at all. This is a regression that started in Emacs 22. In Emacs 20 and 21 (emacs -Q) it works correctly, displaying this: "Started: Tue Oct 18 23:40:28 2011 (Pacific Daylight Time)" If Emacs 20 can pick up the name Pacific Daylight Time correctly, from wherever it gets it, then so should Emacs 24 be able to do so. No user config (e.g. setting env vars) should be necessary. (That doesn't preclude user config - the point is that even without it %Z should DTRT.) In GNU Emacs 24.0.90.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-10-18 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -I"C:/Program Files (x86)/GnuWin32/include" -ID:/devel/emacs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/gnutls-2.10.5-x86/include --ldflags -LD:/devel/emacs/gnutls-2.10.5-x86/lib' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: ENU value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: cp1252 default enable-multibyte-characters: t From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 02:49:02 2011 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 06:49:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPxV-000621-Eo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:49:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10] ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPxS-00061u-KW for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:48:59 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RGPwT-00008G-BG for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:47:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:47:57 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 9794 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) forcemerge 641 9794 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 03:44:39 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 07:44:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGQpL-000815-Nr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 03:44:39 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGQpK-00080t-BY for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 03:44:38 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9J7hSss022296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <9794@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:43:30 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9J7VKc7001284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <9794@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:31:20 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9J7hMRd021646 for <9794@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 02:43:22 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.62.115) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:43:22 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: <9794@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:43:28 -0700 Message-ID: <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcyOKoR2rozwKyJrQyK+4CSzdH0BDwABsdSA In-Reply-To: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4E9E7FA2.01AB,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) Didn't realize this bug was already filed as #641. It's unfortunate that nothing was ever done about this regression. I stumbled on it again only because of someone else's code that uses "...(%Z)". And that is likely to be fairly common, given that people not on Windows will not know that %Z in Emacs is broken on Windows. How many Emacs users use Windows? How long will this be ignored, so they continue to see "...()" instead of something meaningful to them? Stefan's bottom line in the #641 bug thread was this: "I could live with it, tho its usefulness is far from obvious. In any case it would not be for Emacs-23 and I'd recommend potential hackers to work on something else as that's more likely to be useful." Poor Emacs. Poor users. It's usefulness is completely obvious: Windows users lose information that is meant to help them. And just because a non-Windows developer thinks that letting them see "(Pacific Daylight Time)" is not useful to them and "()" is more meaningful. Sheesh. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 03:48:50 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 07:48:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGQtO-00087H-79 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 03:48:50 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGQtL-000873-La for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 03:48:49 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTA00F00YZE7R00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:47:39 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTA00F0WYZF0W60@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:47:39 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:47:40 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83aa8xv2w3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:44:15 -0700 > > emacs -Q > > M-: (format-time-string "Started: %a %b %e %T %Y (%Z)" (current-time)) > > For me that produces this: > > "Started: Tue Oct 18 23:40:28 2011 ()" > > The %Z doesn't work at all. This is a regression that started in Emacs > 22. In Emacs 20 and 21 (emacs -Q) it works correctly, displaying this: > > "Started: Tue Oct 18 23:40:28 2011 (Pacific Daylight Time)" > > If Emacs 20 can pick up the name Pacific Daylight Time correctly, from wherever > it gets it, then so should Emacs 24 be able to do so. No user config (e.g. > setting env vars) should be necessary. (That doesn't preclude user config - the > point is that even without it %Z should DTRT.) This is an old bug #641, see there regarding the explanation why the current behavior is correct. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 04:34:39 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 08:34:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGRbj-0000jl-Fj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:34:39 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGRbg-0000jY-JK for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:34:38 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTB00F000V7B200@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:33:28 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTB00FSP13R1X80@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:33:28 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:33:29 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:43:28 -0700 > > And just because a non-Windows developer thinks that letting them > see "(Pacific Daylight Time)" is not useful to them and "()" is more > meaningful. Sheesh. No, it's because a _Windows_ developer found out that the Windows time-zone names violate international standards for what %Z should produce, which breaks other Emacs features that use the results. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 09:21:31 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 13:21:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGW5I-00019r-Oy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:21:30 -0400 Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.216.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGW5G-00019d-7A for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:21:27 -0400 Received: by qadb12 with SMTP id b12so1291446qad.3 for <9794@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:20:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=31qMq7OtkHcL3uk1xAW/0/XqTBW2kiuhoVGI1Q5APxg=; b=RhWBDoGEIuRC4RzK8HUVgRxFV2poFmim37OYLHdP8MNhrML6FbHuQQhohqqV9wwbKv UaB6sfJXFs/g3QKjvYseOlAkRR3fd4X5tr0EZr9IzqQjYowzRRkrEC4eTkUWzDBNxgzJ lTPEEur38CUhIfZ618Rvvvum9/gBh0hOmmdek= Received: by 10.68.71.234 with SMTP id y10mr12297093pbu.132.1319030417663; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.148.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jm5sm7460012pbc.1.2011.10.19.06.20.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 06:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D11841523; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:20:06 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:20:06 +0800 In-Reply-To: <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:33:29 +0200") Message-ID: <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: "Drew Adams" >> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:43:28 -0700 >> >> And just because a non-Windows developer thinks that letting them >> see "(Pacific Daylight Time)" is not useful to them and "()" is more >> meaningful. Sheesh. > > No, it's because a _Windows_ developer found out that the Windows > time-zone names violate international standards for what %Z should > produce, which breaks other Emacs features that use the results. The international standards alone aren't a problem - GNU software in general does not follow standards slavishly. The real problem is that for many uses of time format strings (which correctly check for an empty %Z string and use %z as a backup), in mail, news, HTTP headers, XML documents and similar uses which rely on the strings being standards compliant, the non-compliant long forms returned by Windows tzname() cause real problems which are much more severe than the inconveniences that this change has caused. One proposal in that thread was to introduce a new format specifier to print the long names (on non-Windows platforms it could output the commonly used "Continent/City" format). Another proposal was that %EZ could be used, which is especially fitting, for the Windows timezone names, which are apparently locale sensitive (which was one of the reported problems that led to them being removed in the first place). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 10:30:05 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 14:30:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGX9h-0002tq-NU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:30:05 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGX9f-0002sb-2M for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:30:04 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9JESq8h008908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:28:53 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9JESpmx017643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:28:52 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9JESk1v032205; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:28:46 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.53.26) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:28:46 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Jason Rumney'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com><24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com><8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:28:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyOYdyLwZ4W7J1XTs6wg8C5sPXCiwAB7oEw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4E9EDEA6.003F:SCFMA922111,ss=1,re=-4.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > >> And just because a non-Windows developer thinks that letting them > >> see "(Pacific Daylight Time)" is not useful to them and "()" is > >> more meaningful. Sheesh. > > > > No, it's because a _Windows_ developer found out that the Windows > > time-zone names violate international standards for what %Z should > > produce, which breaks other Emacs features that use the results. > > The international standards alone aren't a problem - GNU software in > general does not follow standards slavishly. The real problem is that > for many uses of time format strings (which correctly check > for an empty %Z string and use %z as a backup), in mail, news, HTTP > headers, XML documents and similar uses which rely on the strings > being standards compliant, the non-compliant long forms returned by > Windows tzname() cause real problems which are much more severe than > the inconveniences that this change has caused. > > One proposal in that thread was to introduce a new format specifier to > print the long names (on non-Windows platforms it could output the > commonly used "Continent/City" format). Another proposal was that %EZ > could be used, which is especially fitting, for the Windows timezone > names, which are apparently locale sensitive (which was one of the > reported problems that led to them being removed in the first place). Yes - that should be a no-brainer. The only question should be about the details: what format specifiers with what behavior. I suggest format specifiers that let you alternatively do all of the following for the case of time zone names (i.e. "pretty" names, not just %z numbers). 1. Use only POSIX-compliant time-zone pretty names, which can mean "" (empty - no available POSIX name). 2. Use any available nonempty time-zone pretty names, with priority to nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names. 3. Same as #2, but with priority to system-supplied names, even when a corresponding nonempty POSIX name is available. 4. Use only nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names, when available, and fall back to what %z does in cases where the POSIX name is empty. #2 and #3 would also fall back to %z when no nonempty name is available. Again, such details should be open for discussion, but it should be clear that _some_ fix should be found so that programmers are able to provide "pretty" time zone info to users whenever such info is available, whether that info is POSIX or not. Forcing the loss of useful time-zone info just because a user-understandable time-zone description is not understandable to POSIX puts POSIX on top and people at the bottom. Users and Emacs programmers deserve better than that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 10:30:13 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 14:30:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGX9p-0002u8-0a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:30:13 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGX9m-0002tp-VD for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:30:11 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9JET0DA010849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:29:01 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9JEGpfE018116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:16:52 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9JESr9x032293; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:28:53 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.53.26) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:28:53 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <83aa8xv2w3.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:28:59 -0700 Message-ID: <9C4459305EB14AEE9A0EF62F5302595C@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <83aa8xv2w3.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyOM2XXQoIA+p/xQfeap+kiBhWjigAM/WCA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4E9EDEAE.0028,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > This is an old bug #641, see there regarding the explanation why the > current behavior is correct. Yes, it is an old bug, with _no_ good explanation why the regression shouldn't be fixed and plenty of reasons why it should. Stefan even stated that he could "live with" fixing it, though that fix "would not be for Emacs 23". Emacs is not limited to POSIX. %Z is Emacs. %Z before the regression provided useful info for everyone, including Windows users. At a minimum, %Z should be made to fall back to %z or something, so that at least SOME time zone info is provided to the user, instead of just an empty string. If you _also_ want to be able to be "POSIX-compliant" then provide a different format indicator from %Z for that. It is inexcusably misguided to simply remove the time zone info for Windows users, all in the name of respecting POSIXness. Users deserve better. At least give them the %z info if you don't like the natural-language time-zone info that Windows provides: better "(-0700)" than "()". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 10:31:04 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 14:31:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGXAd-0002vb-Cu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:31:03 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGXAa-0002ux-Gs for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:31:01 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9JETnIv010166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:29:51 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9JEHfh7019753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:17:42 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9JETh3t002509; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:29:43 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.53.26) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:29:43 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:29:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyOOcxf3zBsSYi9TjWZDXHdM6G9yAALuY9g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4E9EDEDF.010E,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > > And just because a non-Windows developer thinks that letting them > > see "(Pacific Daylight Time)" is not useful to them and "()" is more > > meaningful. Sheesh. > > No, it's because a _Windows_ developer found out that the Windows > time-zone names violate international standards for what %Z should > produce, which breaks other Emacs features that use the results. No. There is nothing to prevent Emacs from DTRT and providing _both_ the Windows time-zone info and POSIX-standard info, using separate formatting codes. Read the #641 thread. Nothing in the GNU charter/mission/philosophy requires Emacs to _limit_ itself to POSIX compliance. Providing a POSIX-compliant time-zone formatting code is one thing - a good thing, no doubt. Not providing other available, non-POSIX time-zone information that can be useful to users is another thing - a sorry mistake. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 11:14:18 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 15:14:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGXqQ-0003uG-Gc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:14:17 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGXqN-0003u3-Ia for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:14:12 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTB00H00JEQ4C00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:13:02 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTB00H0JJLP2U60@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:13:02 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:13:03 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83vcrlt3pc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <9794@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:29:48 -0700 > > There is nothing to prevent Emacs from DTRT and providing _both_ the > Windows time-zone info and POSIX-standard info, using separate formatting codes. Nothing but a volunteer who would write the code to do it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 11:27:58 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 15:27:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGY3i-0004D6-90 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:27:58 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGY3e-0004Cp-4I for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:27:57 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTB00200K37RG00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:26:45 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTB002MOK8JNZ40@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:26:44 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:26:45 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Jason Rumney Message-id: <83sjmpt32i.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Jason Rumney > Cc: Drew Adams , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:20:06 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > No, it's because a _Windows_ developer found out that the Windows > > time-zone names violate international standards for what %Z should > > produce, which breaks other Emacs features that use the results. > > The international standards alone aren't a problem - GNU software in > general does not follow standards slavishly. The real problem is that > for many uses of time format strings (which correctly check for an empty > %Z string and use %z as a backup), in mail, news, HTTP headers, XML > documents and similar uses which rely on the strings being standards > compliant, the non-compliant long forms returned by Windows tzname() > cause real problems which are much more severe than the inconveniences > that this change has caused. Isn't that what I said: that _using_ the non-standard results of %Z caused trouble to other Emacs features? > One proposal in that thread was to introduce a new format specifier to > print the long names (on non-Windows platforms it could output the > commonly used "Continent/City" format). Another proposal was that %EZ > could be used, which is especially fitting, for the Windows timezone > names, which are apparently locale sensitive (which was one of the > reported problems that led to them being removed in the first place). Are there any problems to produce localized (i.e. non-ASCII) timezone names in strftime? Don't Posix systems do that in some locales? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 19 12:10:10 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Oct 2011 16:10:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGYiX-00059U-Rg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:10:10 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGYiV-00059I-KI for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:10:09 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTB00200M49JH00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:08:58 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTB002DCM6XJJ00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:08:58 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:08:59 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> To: Jason Rumney , Paul Eggert Message-id: <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) > From: Jason Rumney > Cc: Drew Adams , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:20:06 +0800 >=20 > One proposal in that thread was to introduce a new format specifier= to > print the long names (on non-Windows platforms it could output the > commonly used "Continent/City" format). Another proposal was that %= EZ > could be used, which is especially fitting, for the Windows timezon= e > names, which are apparently locale sensitive (which was one of the > reported problems that led to them being removed in the first place= ). I used the %EZ format proposed by Andreas Schwab, and came up with the Windows-specific patch below. Paul, would such a change be acceptable by gnulib? =3D=3D=3D modified file 'ChangeLog' --- ChangeLog=092011-10-18 18:12:53 +0000 +++ ChangeLog=092011-10-19 16:02:14 +0000 @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ +2011-10-19 Eli Zaretskii + +=09* lib/strftime.c (strftime_case_) [_WIN32 || __WIN32__]: Provide +=09non-empty time-zone string only for the %EZ format specifier. + 2011-10-18 Jan Dj=C3=A4rv =20 =09* configure.in (GLIB_REQUIRED, GTK_REQUIRED): Set to 2.10 (Bug#97= 86). =3D=3D=3D modified file 'lib/strftime.c' --- lib/strftime.c=092011-03-31 04:24:03 +0000 +++ lib/strftime.c=092011-10-19 15:48:42 +0000 @@ -1302,6 +1302,12 @@ strftime_case_ (bool upcase, STREAM_OR_C } =20 #if HAVE_TZNAME +#if (defined _WIN32 || defined __WIN32__) +=09 /* Microsoft runtime produces time-zone names that are not +=09 RFC822 compliant, and are also localized. So we only +=09 produce them for %EZ. */ +=09 if (modifier =3D=3D L_('E')) +#endif /* The tzset() call might have changed the value. */ if (!(zone && *zone) && tp->tm_isdst >=3D 0) zone =3D tzname[tp->tm_isdst !=3D 0]; =3D=3D=3D modified file 'nt/ChangeLog' --- nt/ChangeLog=092011-09-04 21:52:59 +0000 +++ nt/ChangeLog=092011-10-19 16:02:25 +0000 @@ -1,3 +1,7 @@ +2011-10-19 Eli Zaretskii + +=09* config.nt (HAVE_TZNAME, HAVE_DECL_TZNAME): Define. + 2011-09-04 Paul Eggert =20 =09* config.nt (HAVE_SNPRINTF): New macro. =3D=3D=3D modified file 'nt/config.nt' --- nt/config.nt=092011-09-26 03:20:03 +0000 +++ nt/config.nt=092011-10-19 15:57:12 +0000 @@ -187,7 +187,14 @@ along with GNU Emacs. If not, see ) id 1RGnNQ-0002ak-MR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:49:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGnNM-0002aW-Py for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 03:49:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5A7A60002; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r76aftZrg0+H; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A81339E8006; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:48:02 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110922 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, Jason Rumney X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 10/19/11 09:08, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Paul, would such a change be acceptable by gnulib? That's a looooong story. I went through the cited bug reports and found three problems: 1. The original problem dates back to my 1999-10-19 patch to editfns.c. This patch fixed several problems by adding conversions between Emacs's string encoding and the underlying system's encoding for strings. The patch added conversions for several functions, including format-time-string, but it did not alter current-time-zone, because I didn't think of the possibility that time zone names might be non-ASCII on some platforms. Michael Schierl reported the current-time-zone issue to RMS in 2007; see . But somehow the light bulb didn't go off, and current-time-zone wasn't fixed. Instead a workaround was installed, which basically said "On Windows, don't ever generate time zone names, because they might contain non-ASCII characters." Now that I see this problem, I have changed current-time-zone so that it converts non-ASCII characters properly, which is what Schierl's bug report was actually about. I installed the fix in the trunk, as bzr 106149. 2. Because of the 2007 workaround, in the Windows port (format-time-string "%Z") always generates an empty string. This is obviously wrong and is not what users expect, and should be fixed by reverting the Windows part of the 2007 workaround, which we can safely do now that the current-time-zone bug has been fixed. Your patch to nt/config.nt should do this, and I agree it should be installed. (There is no need to change lib/strftime.c.) 3. There is some talk in the bug reports about time zone names and RFC822 compliance. But time zone names in general do not conform to RFC822. For example, on a POSIX host if you set the TZ environment variable as follows: TZ="<-8+>0" then (format-time-string "%Z") returns "-8+", and that's the correct value, even if it's not an RFC822 zone. Any code that assumes that (format-time-string "%Z") must generate an RFC822 zone is making an unwarranted assumption and should be fixed. I did a quick scan for such code in Emacs and didn't find any. Perhaps there's some out-of-Emacs Lisp code that's making the assumption, but if so, that code needs to be fixed because in general it does not work and has never worked. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 05:26:20 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 09:26:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGotI-0004qp-LF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:26:20 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGotF-0004qX-OO for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:26:19 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTC00B00Y41K200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:25 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTC009U0Y4K85E0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:22 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:24 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, jasonr@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 00:48:02 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: Jason Rumney , drew.adams@oracle.com, > 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > > Michael Schierl reported the current-time-zone issue to RMS in 2007; see > . > But somehow the light bulb didn't go off, and current-time-zone > wasn't fixed. Instead a workaround was installed, which basically > said "On Windows, don't ever generate time zone names, because > they might contain non-ASCII characters." That's not a fair description of what was done. In response to my question of whether this was too drastic a measure, Jason explained the real reason for the change he did: Non-ASCII is a side issue, and treating it as the main issue is what caused us to install an incorrect fix originally. The original issue reported a number of years ago, was that the timezone names for the Japanese locale on Windows are not RFC 822 compliant. So we suppressed them in certain conditions, but in fact, the timezone names are not RFC 822 compliant in most locales on Windows. Unless we use a lookup table to figure out which names are RFC compliant and which aren't, then I don't see a way we can leave them enabled. > Any code that assumes that (format-time-string "%Z") must generate > an RFC822 zone is making an unwarranted assumption and should be > fixed. Fixed how? Given some arbitrary string, how can Lisp code check whether it is or isn't compliant? Non-ASCII characters are easy to check, but what about time zones that include only ASCII characters? And anyway, if all bets are off about the strings returned by current-time-zone, then what exactly is its contract? If we are going to require Lisp code to check the values and reject non-compliant ones, we should at the very least provide a utility function to do that correctly. Can you suggest such a function? > I did a quick scan for such code in Emacs and didn't find > any. Perhaps there's some out-of-Emacs Lisp code that's making > the assumption, but if so, that code needs to be fixed because > in general it does not work and has never worked. Jason, can you point out which package(s) needed an RFC822-compliant time zone name? In the mail exchange I found, you just say [...] since the result of current-time-zone is used for mail headers, where non-ASCII characters are not allowed, and the POSIX timezone names are expected [...] From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 05:47:23 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 09:47:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpDd-0005Jg-EE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:47:22 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpDa-0005JS-A8 for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 05:47:19 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CBB1C02BD4; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0AD1C00404; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IchStQIjzy8X; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hase.home (ppp-88-217-119-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.119.26]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: This is a NO-FRILLS flight -- hold th' CANADIAN BACON!! Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:24 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: Paul Eggert , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Fixed how? Given some arbitrary string, how can Lisp code check > whether it is or isn't compliant? By using %z. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 06:07:30 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 10:07:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpX8-0005mt-EV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:07:30 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpX7-0005mf-14 for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:07:29 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTC00K00ZX4RW00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:48 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTD00KSK01KRU00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:48 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:47 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: Paul Eggert , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:06 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Fixed how? Given some arbitrary string, how can Lisp code check > > whether it is or isn't compliant? > > By using %z. That's _after_ you discover that the string returned by %Z is non-compliant. My question was ho to discover that, sorry for being unclear. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 06:12:05 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 10:12:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpbZ-0005tF-6f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:12:05 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGpbW-0005sj-07 for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:12:03 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B331C0F56A; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA841C002FB; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ltel+6QJwOmv; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hase.home (ppp-88-217-119-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.119.26]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: NOW, I'm supposed to SCRAMBLE two, and HOLD th' MAYO!! Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:47 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > That's _after_ you discover that the string returned by %Z is > non-compliant. You know that in advance. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 06:50:35 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 10:50:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGqCk-0006oz-Nx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:50:34 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGqCg-0006oi-Ox for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:50:28 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTD00C000921700@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:49:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTD00BQI21XTHB0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:49:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:49:12 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:10:52 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > That's _after_ you discover that the string returned by %Z is > > non-compliant. > > You know that in advance. No, I don't, because setting TZ=EST or some such in the environment will produce a compliant string. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 07:23:42 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 11:23:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGqir-0007Yg-JJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:23:41 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGqin-0007YQ-Na for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:23:39 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC91F1C02FA8; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0CD1C00362; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KvgvEvMKyTqr; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hase.home (ppp-88-217-119-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.119.26]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: Yow! I want to mail a bronzed artichoke to Nicaragua! Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:49:12 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > No, I don't, because setting TZ=EST or some such in the environment > will produce a compliant string. It does not match [+-]NNNN. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 09:00:10 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 13:00:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsED-00028g-Nu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:00:10 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsEA-00027L-CZ for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:00:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTD00L007UL2Z00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:58:50 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTD00L4J8201W30@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:58:50 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:58:51 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:22:26 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > No, I don't, because setting TZ=EST or some such in the environment > > will produce a compliant string. > > It does not match [+-]NNNN. But the output of %Z or current-time-zone isn't supposed to. E.g., on fencepost.gnu.org, I get "EDT". It's %z that produces [-+]NNNN. To step back a notch, the original issue was that current-time-zone can produce strings that are not RFC822 compliant, even on a Posix system, if the luser sets TZ to some arbitrary string. Paul says that any software that uses the output of current-time-zone should be able to detect this non-compliance and use %z instead. I'm asking how to do that. With a previous "work-around" on Windows, the test was easy: the output was a blank string, which is definitely not RFC822 compliant. If we remove that work-around, we can get something like "Pacific Daylight Time" instead, which is invalid according to RFC822. I'm asking how to detect such "invalid" zone names. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 09:07:16 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 13:07:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsL5-0002Ip-Qr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:07:16 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsL3-0002Id-4x for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:07:14 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE09A1C1DA1E; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:05:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119711C002B7; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:05:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOyMoCSU2K2u; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:05:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hase.home (ppp-88-217-119-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.119.26]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:05:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: SANTA CLAUS comes down a FIRE ESCAPE wearing bright blue LEG WARMERS.. He scrubs the POPE with a mild soap or detergent for 15 minutes, starring JANE FONDA!! Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:06:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:58:51 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > It's %z that produces [-+]NNNN. Which is exactly what is required. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 09:19:35 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 13:19:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsX1-0002aI-GV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:19:35 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGsWz-0002a5-Dh for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:19:34 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTD00M008QQF200@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:18:18 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTD00MIT8YGCI40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:18:18 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:18:19 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <83zkgvssx0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:06:01 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > It's %z that produces [-+]NNNN. > > Which is exactly what is required. But is only tangential to this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 11:24:53 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 15:24:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGuUG-0007Bh-OY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:53 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGuUD-0007BO-DA for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:51 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1504A60003; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:23:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5kbtdc8g9jf; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.179.64.200] (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DCB1A60002; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4EA03CF1.7070504@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:23:29 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: Andreas Schwab , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) On 10/20/11 05:58, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > current-time-zone > can produce strings that are not RFC822 compliant, even on a Posix > system, if the luser sets TZ to some arbitrary string. Paul says that > any software that uses the output of current-time-zone should be able > to detect this non-compliance and use %z instead. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, as I didn't intend to imply anything about detecting non-compliance. Let me try to explain in more detail. Software cannot simply use %Z and then filter out invalid strings, because sometimes the %Z output can be a valid RFC822 string and still be wrong. For example, in eastern Australia the time zone name is typically "EST", a valid RFC822 zone, but using "EST" is wrong because RFC822 says EST is equivalent to 5 hours behind UTC, whereas Australian EST is equivalent to 10 or 11 hours ahead of UTC. An inhabitant of Sydney should put "+1000" or "+1100" in outgoing email, not "EST". (Australians commonly use the same abbreviation for both Eastern Standard Time and Eastern Summer Time.) The simplest way around the problem, which is what Emacs Lisp code does now, is to follow Andreas's advice use %z. Any outside-of-Emacs Lisp code that uses %Z for RFC822 zones should be fixed to use %z, because %Z does not work and has never worked in general. There are more-complicated solutions if you reeeeaaalllly want the RFC822 symbolic names, but nobody uses them, for good reason. In the email world, these symbolic names are obsolete, because of problems like the above. RFC2822, the successor to RFC822, describes them in its section 4.3 ("Obsolete Date and Time"), and says in section 1.3 that obsolete forms such as these "MUST NOT be generated by creators of conformant messages". Anybody who uses %Z to generate RFC822 headers is not conforming to the current email standards, even if they are in the US eastern time zone and are generating "EDT" and "EST". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 20 12:05:06 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2011 16:05:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGv7C-0008AR-Em for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:06 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RGv7A-00089v-7g for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:05:05 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTD00F00GK8DP00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:03:48 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTD00FV2GMBB620@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:03:48 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:03:50 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <4EA03CF1.7070504@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83sjmnsl95.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <838vogt1tw.fsf@gnu.org> <837h40sztj.fsf@gnu.org> <831uu7u8dw.fsf@gnu.org> <4EA03CF1.7070504@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 08:23:29 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: Andreas Schwab , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > > The simplest way around the problem, which is what Emacs Lisp > code does now, is to follow Andreas's advice use %z. Any > outside-of-Emacs Lisp code that uses %Z for RFC822 zones should > be fixed to use %z, because %Z does not work and has never worked > in general. OK, thanks for explaining. I will wait a few days for Jason to agree or disagree, and if no objections pop up, I will commit the changes to config.nt. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 21 11:42:02 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2011 15:42:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHHEQ-00009w-0C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:42:02 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.213.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHHEN-00009Q-3a for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:42:00 -0400 Received: by ywt2 with SMTP id 2so439749ywt.3 for <9794@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=z+xTgvK2CCpedT+httZ3fPLiFS4gI5nOeECZFoeJBqs=; b=S6Jf5Sr3o8wYWEaO3d2JYPIEDY4nWU+Q3w/IDkNqVE3euO1lNYVo45N3mQx9Tati+c /aQ6eN8Wxesk9N8Zh1vPQk0sc/8W5Wdjf3Ryf2noFL9g2XlEV/O1mqQlJ5MQi7KaqXWJ PTdhi2J6qEdJpVz2SSo1LAOsInq6t5eKA+IpE= Received: by 10.68.14.105 with SMTP id o9mr28560701pbc.95.1319211638250; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.jasonrumney.net ([180.75.148.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ko15sm31609646pbb.9.2011.10.21.08.40.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by home.jasonrumney.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 874531826; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:40:20 +0800 (MYT) From: Jason Rumney To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:40:20 +0800 In-Reply-To: <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:24:24 +0200") Message-ID: <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: Paul Eggert , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Any code that assumes that (format-time-string "%Z") must generate >> an RFC822 zone is making an unwarranted assumption and should be >> fixed. > > Fixed how? Given some arbitrary string, how can Lisp code check > whether it is or isn't compliant? Non-ASCII characters are easy to > check, but what about time zones that include only ASCII characters? Lisp code that needs RFC822 compliance should just use %z. Only a small subset of timezone abbreviations are allowed by RFC822: zone = "UT" / "GMT" ; Universal Time ; North American : UT / "EST" / "EDT" ; Eastern: - 5/ - 4 / "CST" / "CDT" ; Central: - 6/ - 5 / "MST" / "MDT" ; Mountain: - 7/ - 6 / "PST" / "PDT" ; Pacific: - 8/ - 7 / 1ALPHA ; Military: Z = UT; ; A:-1; (J not used) ; M:-12; N:+1; Y:+12 / ( ("+" / "-") 4DIGIT ) ; Local differential ; hours+min. (HHMM) So Paul is probably correct - we should not worry about RFC / POSIX or whatever compliance for %Z. > Jason, can you point out which package(s) needed an RFC822-compliant > time zone name? In the mail exchange I found, you just say > > [...] since the result of current-time-zone is used for mail > headers, where non-ASCII characters are not allowed, and the POSIX > timezone names are expected [...] A translation of the original report is here: http://www.m17n.org/mlarchive/mule-ja/200102/msg00072.html The original problem leading to that report seems to have been observed in a beta version of mew: http://groups.yahoo.co.jp/group/emacs21-users-ja/message/42 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 21 13:36:21 2011 Received: (at 9794) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Oct 2011 17:36:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHJ13-0004D9-2Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:36:21 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHJ0x-0004Ct-SZ for 9794@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:36:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337CCA60005; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2K2klCPyKLU; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [131.179.64.200] (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35AB4A60002; Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4EA1AD3A.7000207@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 10:34:50 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110928 Fedora/3.1.15-1.fc14 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Rumney Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Kazu Yamamoto , 9794@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) On 10/21/11 08:40, Jason Rumney wrote: > The original problem leading to that report seems to have been > observed in a beta version of mew: > http://groups.yahoo.co.jp/group/emacs21-users-ja/message/42 Thanks, that reinforces the suggestion that we should install the nt/config.nt patch and then mark this as done. The current version of Mew (6.4) uses %z for the time zone, so it should work fine. Mew also uses %Z, which it encodes and puts into an RFC822 comment, which should also work. Mew even contains a workaround for the Emacs 22 and 23 bug where %Z generates the empty string on Japanese Windows! If we install the nt/config.nt patch, that should make Mew work better now, and once Mew assumes Emacs 24 or later it can remove that workaround. I'll CC: this to the Mew maintainer to give him a heads-up (the the full thread is at ). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 22 05:23:50 2011 Received: (at 9794-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2011 09:23:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHXnx-0000DD-UD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:23:50 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHXnv-0000Cu-KE; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 05:23:49 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTG00F00N5XO700@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:21:55 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTG00FUTNCHJU40@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:21:55 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:21:57 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Jason Rumney Message-id: <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794-done Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 641-done@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, 9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Jason Rumney > Cc: Paul Eggert , drew.adams@oracle.com, 9794@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:40:20 +0800 > > So Paul is probably correct - we should not worry about RFC / POSIX or > whatever compliance for %Z. Thanks. So, since everybody agrees, I committed as revision 106162 the changes to nt/config.nt that make current-time-zone and the strftime's %Z format return a non-empty string on MS-Windows. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 22 10:29:38 2011 Received: (at 9794-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2011 14:29:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHcZs-0007zj-PJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:29:37 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHcZp-0007zR-NJ; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:29:35 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9MERv18006960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:27:59 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9MERudg014131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:27:57 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9MERoTv009615; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:27:51 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.53.215) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:27:50 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , "'Jason Rumney'" References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:27:44 -0700 Message-ID: <7C502CD8B0C04DCBBE456AE1F02FCF01@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyQnCECTcaQa+ZFSc+VqymvPYxflgAKYDOw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4EA2D2EF.009E:SCFMA922111,ss=1,re=-4.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794-done Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 641-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > Thanks. So, since everybody agrees, ? > I committed as revision 106162 > the changes to nt/config.nt that make current-time-zone and the > strftime's %Z format return a non-empty string on MS-Windows. Just what is the non-empty string that is returned on Windows? Is it the informative name that Windows provides (e.g., "(Pacific Daylight Time)"), or just the %z numerical offset, or something else again? What about this? > I suggest format specifiers that let you alternatively do all > of the following for the case of time zone names (i.e. "pretty" > names, not just %z numbers). > > 1. Use only POSIX-compliant time-zone pretty names, which can > mean "" (empty - no available POSIX name). > > 2. Use any available nonempty time-zone pretty names, with > priority to nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names. > > 3. Same as #2, but with priority to system-supplied names, > even when a corresponding nonempty POSIX name is available. > > 4. Use only nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names, when > available, and fall back to what %z does in cases where the > POSIX name is empty. > > #2 and #3 would also fall back to %z when no nonempty name is > available. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 22 11:26:47 2011 Received: (at 9794-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2011 15:26:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHdTC-0000uC-PN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:26:46 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHdT8-0000tt-WD; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:26:44 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTH0030041FDS00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:24:41 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTH0027U454N4E0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:24:41 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:24:44 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <7C502CD8B0C04DCBBE456AE1F02FCF01@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83fwildp6r.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> <7C502CD8B0C04DCBBE456AE1F02FCF01@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794-done Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 641-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jasonr@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , <9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org>, > <641-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 07:27:44 -0700 > > > Thanks. So, since everybody agrees, > > ? ! > Just what is the non-empty string that is returned on Windows? The one provided by Windows. > Is it the > informative name that Windows provides (e.g., "(Pacific Daylight Time)") Yes. The strings come from the Registry, you can look them up there (for the exact key, see the discussions wrt bug #641). > or just the %z numerical offset No. If you want the numerical offset, use %z in format-time-string. > or something else again? No. > What about this? > > > I suggest format specifiers that let you alternatively do all > > of the following for the case of time zone names (i.e. "pretty" > > names, not just %z numbers). > > > > 1. Use only POSIX-compliant time-zone pretty names, which can > > mean "" (empty - no available POSIX name). > > > > 2. Use any available nonempty time-zone pretty names, with > > priority to nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names. > > > > 3. Same as #2, but with priority to system-supplied names, > > even when a corresponding nonempty POSIX name is available. > > > > 4. Use only nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names, when > > available, and fall back to what %z does in cases where the > > POSIX name is empty. > > > > #2 and #3 would also fall back to %z when no nonempty name is > > available. I don't see a need to provide all these features, certainly not as part of these two bug reports, as we are now back where we were in Emacs 22. All the regressions were fixed, some by Paul in revision 106149, and the rest by revision 106162 I committed today. If you still think you need the other options, please file a wishlist bug report, because Emacs never had those features. My take on these options is that #3 is what you have after these last changes, #4 needs a simple test to decide whether to fall back to %z, and the rest are impractical, because there's no good way of mapping an arbitrary (possibly non-ASCII) string returned by Windows to the 1- or 3-letter zones from the short list allowed by RFC 822. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 22 12:19:26 2011 Received: (at 9794-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2011 16:19:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHeIA-00028z-6Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:19:26 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHeI7-00028i-5d; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:19:24 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p9MGHqbL002409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:17:54 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9MGHpRq016110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 22 Oct 2011 16:17:52 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p9MGHk5N014432; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:17:46 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.53.215) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:17:45 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> <7C502CD8B0C04DCBBE456AE1F02FCF01@us.oracle.com> <83fwildp6r.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:17:40 -0700 Message-ID: <5615352757FD4A6189BBCFB1886D30B1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83fwildp6r.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcyQztK6A4seM57vSz6w6FbVab8HIAABe1Qg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4EA2ECB3.0015:SCFMA922111,ss=1,re=-4.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794-done Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 641-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jasonr@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > > I suggest format specifiers that let you alternatively do all > > of the following for the case of time zone names (i.e. "pretty" > > names, not just %z numbers). > > > > 1. Use only POSIX-compliant time-zone pretty names, which can > > mean "" (empty - no available POSIX name). > > > > 2. Use any available nonempty time-zone pretty names, with > > priority to nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names. > > > > 3. Same as #2, but with priority to system-supplied names, > > even when a corresponding nonempty POSIX name is available. > > > > 4. Use only nonempty POSIX-compliant pretty names, when > > available, and fall back to what %z does in cases where the > > POSIX name is empty. > > > > #2 and #3 would also fall back to %z when no nonempty name is > > available. > >... > All the regressions were fixed, some by Paul in revision > 106149, and the rest by revision 106162 I committed today. Thanks to all for the fixes. > My take on these options is that #3 is what you have after these last > changes, #4 needs a simple test to decide whether to fall back to %z, > and the rest are impractical, because there's no good way of mapping > an arbitrary (possibly non-ASCII) string returned by Windows to the 1- > or 3-letter zones from the short list allowed by RFC 822. #3 was what I requested from the beginning, so I'm fine with that. You fought #3 vehemently, defending #1 (which you now claim is "impractical"!), but after 3 years you've apparently come 'round (to #3). That's progress. Thx for the fix. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 22 12:26:57 2011 Received: (at 9794-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Oct 2011 16:26:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHePQ-0002JF-S9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:26:57 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RHePK-0002Ir-NX; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:26:52 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LTH00J006PD5U00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:25:24 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.212.197]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LTH00I9E6Y9NO90@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:25:23 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 18:25:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9794: 24.0.90; `format-time-string' no good for %Z In-reply-to: <5615352757FD4A6189BBCFB1886D30B1@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83ehy5dmdl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <68A313A7DDAA4912A255DAFE495606F9@us.oracle.com> <24FDB65B0E784E978085D30A7CBF9FAF@us.oracle.com> <8362jlv0rq.fsf@gnu.org> <87fwipgltl.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqhtt144.fsf@gnu.org> <4E9FD232.9090502@cs.ucla.edu> <83botct3qv.fsf@gnu.org> <87vcrifj4r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k47xe5ze.fsf@gnu.org> <7C502CD8B0C04DCBBE456AE1F02FCF01@us.oracle.com> <83fwildp6r.fsf@gnu.org> <5615352757FD4A6189BBCFB1886D30B1@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9794-done Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 641-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jasonr@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , , <9794-done@debbugs.gnu.org>, > <641-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:17:40 -0700 > > You fought #3 vehemently I just reiterated past decisions, when no one said they were based on wrong assumptions, and upheld Jason's research on this issue. > defending #1 (which you now claim is "impractical"!) That's false, I never defended #1. > but after 3 years you've apparently come 'round (to #3). There's new information now, which led to reversal of past decisions. That's normal. From unknown Sat Aug 16 00:32:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator