From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 29 15:54:14 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2011 19:54:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7uQ-0002Kx-4o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:54:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7uN-0002Ko-Fx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:54:12 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7rO-0003GX-W3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:51:07 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:36594) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7rO-0003GT-UV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:51:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:35803) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7rO-0008F7-1p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:51:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7rL-0003FY-PD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:51:05 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]:35283) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy7rL-0003Ej-HE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:51:03 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959466E8075 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97FE451C3B8 for ; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:50:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:27:50 +0300 Message-ID: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) Two problems related to `list-colors-display': 1. On a tty, running `M-x list-colors-display RET' displays truncated hex color values like: red #cd000$ where $ is displayed at the end of the partial line. To display the complete line this could be fixed by incrementing `align-to' from 9 to 10 in `list-colors-print'. But after that when running it on X two extra spaces are displayed at the end of these lines. Maybe the bug is somewhere deeper in the display engine that aligns differently on a tty and X? 2. New faces `gtk_selection_fg_color' and `gtk_selection_bg_color' now are available for using on GTK but they are not listed in `list-colors-display', and they can't be selected and completed in `customize-face'. There are more colors that are valid for using but hidden from users such as e.g. on a tty: `unspecified-fg', `unspecified-bg'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 29 16:13:10 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2011 20:13:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy8Ck-0003Ro-5f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:13:10 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy8Ch-0003Rc-A6 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:13:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQP00E00HAKYI00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQP00EZ1HCOBVB0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Juri Linkov Message-id: <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Juri Linkov > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:27:50 +0300 > > 1. On a tty, running `M-x list-colors-display RET' displays > truncated hex color values like: red #cd000$ > where $ is displayed at the end of the partial line. > > To display the complete line this could be fixed by incrementing > `align-to' from 9 to 10 in `list-colors-print'. But after that > when running it on X two extra spaces are displayed at the end > of these lines. > > Maybe the bug is somewhere deeper in the display engine > that aligns differently on a tty and X? It aligns differently, but the result should be identical. I will take a look. > 2. New faces `gtk_selection_fg_color' and `gtk_selection_bg_color' > now are available for using on GTK but they are not listed in > `list-colors-display', and they can't be selected and completed in > `customize-face'. Did this ever work? Emacs always had platform-specific colors besides those in rgb.txt, I don't think this is something new. > There are more colors that are valid for using but hidden from users > such as e.g. on a tty: `unspecified-fg', `unspecified-bg'. They are meaningless and cannot be set by Emacs. IOW, they are "read-only", as far as Emacs is concerned. Exposing them to users would be confusing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 29 17:23:37 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2011 21:23:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy9Iu-0008SO-Me for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:23:37 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qy9Ip-0008SD-TS for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:23:33 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DCE6E80BD; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4CE451C3B8; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:20:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:17:42 +0300 In-Reply-To: <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300") Message-ID: <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> 2. New faces `gtk_selection_fg_color' and `gtk_selection_bg_color' >> now are available for using on GTK but they are not listed in >> `list-colors-display', and they can't be selected and completed in >> `customize-face'. > > Did this ever work? Emacs always had platform-specific colors besides > those in rgb.txt, I don't think this is something new. Yes, it never worked. >> There are more colors that are valid for using but hidden from users >> such as e.g. on a tty: `unspecified-fg', `unspecified-bg'. > > They are meaningless and cannot be set by Emacs. IOW, they are > "read-only", as far as Emacs is concerned. Exposing them to users > would be confusing. All colors are "read-only" for users in the sense that users can't change them. But platform-specific colors are not different from other colors in the sense that they are used in face customization. IOW, when the user types `M-x customize-face RET region RET' then s?he sees the color name "gtk_selection_fg_color". Then the user might change it to some other color, but after that it's difficult to restore the original default color name, because the user don't remember this color name literally and can't select it using completion or the "Choose" button that lists all color names. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 29 22:58:04 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 02:58:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyEWa-0005cV-7u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:58:04 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyEWY-0005c4-J6 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:58:03 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQP00600ZQ0E900@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:54:56 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQQ006LH03J9PA0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:54:55 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:54:55 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Juri Linkov Message-id: <837h5vfw1s.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:17:42 +0300 > > >> There are more colors that are valid for using but hidden from users > >> such as e.g. on a tty: `unspecified-fg', `unspecified-bg'. > > > > They are meaningless and cannot be set by Emacs. IOW, they are > > "read-only", as far as Emacs is concerned. Exposing them to users > > would be confusing. > > All colors are "read-only" for users in the sense that users can't > change them. But platform-specific colors are not different from other > colors in the sense that they are used in face customization. Sorry, I was talking only about unspecified-bg and unspecified-fg. Emacs simply has no way of requesting these colors, it uses these names for the original TTY color whose foreground and background are unknown. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 01:43:44 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 05:43:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyH6u-0008QJ-83 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 01:43:44 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-h21.telenor.se ([195.54.99.196]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyH6s-0008QB-8U for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 01:43:43 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-h21.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D16CE9454 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:40:35 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AoNwALV3XE5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABDiRKedAsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEEATgeIgEQCyEWDwkDAgECARsMChQGDQEHAQGHbgK3RIZNBJgyi3g X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,300,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214340132" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 30 Aug 2011 07:40:32 +0200 Received: from [10.225.16.217] (unknown [193.45.43.33]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E30D97FA059; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:40:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:40:30 +0200 From: "Jan D." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Hello. Juri Linkov skrev 2011-08-29 23:17: > > IOW, when the user types `M-x customize-face RET region RET' > then s?he sees the color name "gtk_selection_fg_color". > Then the user might change it to some other color, but after that > it's difficult to restore the original default color name, > because the user don't remember this color name literally > and can't select it using completion or the "Choose" button > that lists all color names. > > That is on purpose. Say a user customizes a face to use gtk_selection_fg_color and saves it. He then starts an Emacs compiled without Gtk+. What color shall Emacs use then? Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 03:47:46 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 07:47:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyJ2v-0000Tx-Rk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:47:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyJ2t-0000Tq-UK for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:47:44 -0400 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QyIzt-00064F-Pt; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:44:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:44:37 -0400 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: juri@jurta.org In-reply-to: <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:10:01 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > > > From: Juri Linkov > > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:27:50 +0300 > > > > 1. On a tty, running `M-x list-colors-display RET' displays > > truncated hex color values like: red #cd000$ > > where $ is displayed at the end of the partial line. > > > > To display the complete line this could be fixed by incrementing > > `align-to' from 9 to 10 in `list-colors-print'. But after that > > when running it on X two extra spaces are displayed at the end > > of these lines. > > > > Maybe the bug is somewhere deeper in the display engine > > that aligns differently on a tty and X? > > It aligns differently, but the result should be identical. I will > take a look. I see the problem: the calculation of the width of the stretch of white space is subtly different in the TTY and GUI versions of the code. It all comes from The Mother Of All Evil: having two separate versions of code where in fact the TTY version is a proper subset of the GUI one. I will merge both versions into one later today, and that should fix the bug. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 05:36:55 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 09:36:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyKkY-0007j2-8N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:36:54 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyKkV-0007iu-3E for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:36:52 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145BE6E805E; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDD9451C3C4; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:33:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: "Jan D." Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:51 +0300 In-Reply-To: <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> (Jan D.'s message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:40:30 +0200") Message-ID: <87hb4zp8mc.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > That is on purpose. Say a user customizes a face to use > gtk_selection_fg_color and saves it. He then starts an Emacs compiled > without Gtk+. What color shall Emacs use then? Exactly the same problem exists for all other conditional face customizations. What if a user customizes a face on X for min-colors 88 and starts Emacs on a tty with 8 colors? Or customizes a face to "color-255" on xterm-256color and starts Emacs on X? Or customizes a face for light background and starts Emacs on dark background? Or customizes a face for bold and starts Emacs where bold is not supported? And so on. Of course, graceful degradation to some closer colors could help, but the result would not be what the user has customized. To avoid these problems, customize-face should retain the conditional part of the face definition when saving the modified face. So e.g. after customizing `region' to some other colors: (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light) (type gtk)) :foreground "white" :background "black") And after restoring the original default colors the condition will remain intact in `custom-set-faces': (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light) (type gtk)) :foreground "gtk_selection_fg_color" :background "gtk_selection_bg_color") From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 07:45:01 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 11:45:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyMkW-0007cl-OL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:45:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyMkU-0007cf-W1 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:44:59 -0400 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QyMhT-0001vc-Qw; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:41:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:41:51 -0400 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-reply-to: <87hb4zp8mc.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (message from Juri Linkov on Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:51 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> <87hb4zp8mc.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:51 +0300 > > What if a user customizes a face on X for min-colors 88 and starts Emacs on > a tty with 8 colors? TTY is not a problem: each color goes through color approximation (see tty-colors.el), so Emacs will choose some available color whose RGB values are the closest to the one specified. > Or customizes a face to "color-255" on xterm-256color > and starts Emacs on X? Or customizes a face for light background and > starts Emacs on dark background? Or customizes a face for bold and starts > Emacs where bold is not supported? And so on. The answer is clear: unsupported attributes and colors are ignored, the color approximation for TTY mentioned above being the only exception. > Of course, graceful degradation to some closer colors could help, > but the result would not be what the user has customized. What else can Emacs possibly do? > To avoid these problems, customize-face should retain the conditional > part of the face definition when saving the modified face. This doesn't work in general because most faces don't provide values for every possible level of support. > (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light) (type gtk)) > :foreground "gtk_selection_fg_color" > :background "gtk_selection_bg_color") Aha, and then you run this on an older GTK version where gtk_selection_bg_color isn't supported, then what? The only way out of this mess that has some future is to expand the color approximation we have for TTY to all the other display types. That will at least work as reliably as humanly possible. Nothing else will ever work reliably. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 10:19:05 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 14:19:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyP9c-0001ln-Kh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:19:05 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyP9Y-0001lN-NA for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:19:02 -0400 Received: from frontend1.mail.m-online.net (frontend1.mail.intern.m-online.net [192.168.8.180]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA031853B8D; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.8.164]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA911C0006D; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.180]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.8.164]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2+YIWoKSTIgG; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hase.home (ppp-88-217-102-94.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.102.94]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> <87hb4zp8mc.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Yow: .. Now I think I just reached the state of HYPERTENSION that comes JUST BEFORE you see the TOTAL at the SAFEWAY CHECKOUT COUNTER! Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:41:51 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Juri Linkov , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Aha, and then you run this on an older GTK version where > gtk_selection_bg_color isn't supported, then what? You cannot expect forward compatiblity in general. If you downgrade then you have to cope with possibly missing features. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 13:49:30 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 17:49:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QySRG-0007kR-Io for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:49:30 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QySRE-0007kJ-2w for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:49:29 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQR00B0059RE000@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:46:18 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQR00B2O5D49B40@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:46:17 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:46:17 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:44:37 -0400 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > > I will merge both versions into one later today, and that should fix > the bug. Done in revision 105619 on the trunk. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 30 14:00:54 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2011 18:00:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyScI-0000Fs-6o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:00:54 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyScG-0000Fk-09 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:00:52 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQR000005M9SD00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:57:42 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQR000CJ5W5NF50@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:57:42 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:57:42 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Andreas Schwab Message-id: <831uw2g4tl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <8739gjzzm1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5C77CE.3000203@swipnet.se> <87hb4zp8mc.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: Juri Linkov , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:15:48 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Aha, and then you run this on an older GTK version where > > gtk_selection_bg_color isn't supported, then what? > > You cannot expect forward compatiblity in general. If you downgrade > then you have to cope with possibly missing features. I'm not looking for compatibility, I'm looking for a way to have such a face stand out in _some_ color. Otherwise, it will be displayed indistinguishable from the default face. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 06:11:15 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 10:11:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyhlK-0004e4-TR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:11:15 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyhlI-0004dw-8v for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:11:13 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86B96EB0E1; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 03:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C241451C3CA; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 02:43:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:35:18 +0300 In-Reply-To: <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:46:17 +0300") Message-ID: <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > Done in revision 105619 on the trunk. Thank you. I confirm that it's fixed now. As for platform-specific colors, what I meant is implementing exactly the same handling of colors as currently is already implemented in Emacs on Windows where `M-x list-colors-display' lists platform-specific colors at the end of the color list: `SystemBackground', `SystemWindow', `SystemWindowText' and all other system colors, and the user can select system colors in `customize-face' via completion or the "Choose" button that includes all platform-specific colors. Another question is why the face definition of `region' has platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. In Emacs on Windows two system colors are available exactly for that purpose. Their names are `SystemHilight' (background) and `SystemHilightText' (foreground). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 07:00:50 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 11:00:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyiXK-00006Z-Fd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:00:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyiXI-00006Q-8N for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:00:49 -0400 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QyiUB-0003o5-Ek; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:57:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:57:35 -0400 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-reply-to: <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (message from Juri Linkov on Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:35:18 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:35:18 +0300 > > > Done in revision 105619 on the trunk. > > Thank you. I confirm that it's fixed now. Thanks for testing. > Another question is why the face definition of `region' has > platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 12:21:14 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 16:21:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QynXO-0004qH-0l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:21:14 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.147]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QynXL-0004q6-Ow for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:21:12 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp-128-36-14-41.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p7VGHtSt020711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:17:56 -0400 From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:17:55 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:57:35 -0400") Message-ID: <87wrdt1rnw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.147 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Juri Linkov , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has >> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. > > I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have > system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed > to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. In this case, the behavior is "use the system default" ;-) FWIW, I am also ambivalent about this feature. The system selection color can clash with the default Emacs foreground/background color, unless those colors are also taken from the system (which AFAIK it is not). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 12:32:46 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 16:32:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyniY-0005mz-2C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:46 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyniU-0005mr-Un for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:43 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EEC6E80A4; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63531451C384; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:29:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:27:45 +0300 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 06:57:35 -0400") Message-ID: <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has >> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. > > I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have > system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed > to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. Emacs should respect the user settings even if they are made on system level. Emacs already respects the user's choice of system-specific colors on a tty (with `unspecified-fg' and `unspecified-bg') and some other system-specific customizations. I don't remember the goal of trying to look the same on all platforms and indeed Emacs already doesn't look the same on different platforms: there are different scroll bars, frame decorations, fonts, icons, etc. So Emacs should adapt to the platform defaults as much as possible. What is still missing is using just few remaining colors for few platforms. (And another thing is that the GTK version doesn't respect the user's GTK settings for the blinking cursor, whereas the Windows version does). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 13:44:08 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 17:44:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyopb-0001iU-U3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:44:08 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyopY-0001iK-Dz for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:44:05 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQS00L00ZQQHQ00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:40:48 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQS00KOXZRZN3P0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:40:48 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:40:49 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Juri Linkov Message-id: <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:27:45 +0300 > > >> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has > >> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. > > > > I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have > > system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed > > to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. > > Emacs should respect the user settings even if they are made on > system level. How many users actually change these system-level settings from their defaults? My guess is zero. > Emacs already respects the user's choice of system-specific colors > on a tty (with `unspecified-fg' and `unspecified-bg') and some other > system-specific customizations. You have it backwards. The _only_ reason Emacs does that is on a tty is that many text terminals cannot be queried about their colors. When Emacs can do that, it sets its own default colors. > I don't remember the goal of trying to look the same on all platforms > and indeed Emacs already doesn't look the same on different platforms: > there are different scroll bars, frame decorations, fonts, icons, etc. These are specific to GUI toolkits and/or window managers. IOW, something that is out of Emacs control. Colors that Emacs uses for non-default faces do not fall under the same category. > So Emacs should adapt to the platform defaults as much as possible. Obviously, I disagree. Emacs should have the same defaults on all platforms, as much as possible. People such as myself who use Emacs on multiple platforms become very confused when the colors they expect don't show. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 14:46:22 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 18:46:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qypnp-0006Ux-Sj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:46:22 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qypnj-0006T8-IO for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:46:16 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AFE6E806F; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE75F451C384; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:42:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:35:12 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:40:49 +0300") Message-ID: <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > How many users actually change these system-level settings from their > defaults? My guess is zero. Many users switch pre-defined system themes (because this is very easy to do). And when the user likes the default system-level settings, it's the user's preference after all that should be respected. >> So Emacs should adapt to the platform defaults as much as possible. > > Obviously, I disagree. Emacs should have the same defaults on all > platforms, as much as possible. People such as myself who use Emacs > on multiple platforms become very confused when the colors they expect > don't show. For users that use more applications beside Emacs on one platform it's annoying when Emacs doesn't follow common system-wide look and feel. I think there are more users that use many applications on one platform and want all of them look the same than the number of users who use just Emacs and switch platforms frequently. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 15:05:28 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 19:05:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyq6K-0007e9-6E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:05:28 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-h21.telenor.se ([195.54.99.196]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyq6H-0007e1-RC for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:05:26 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-h21.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC2FEA76E for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:02:10 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqhjAI+EXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFOB4iARALDhMWDwkDAgECARsMChQGDQEFAgEBh3C6b4ZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214674511" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 21:02:10 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 476F97FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:02:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5E8535.8090609@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:02:13 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87wrdt1rnw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> In-Reply-To: <87wrdt1rnw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Chong Yidong skrev 2011-08-31 18:17: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has >>> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. >> >> I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have >> system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed >> to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. > > In this case, the behavior is "use the system default" ;-) > > FWIW, I am also ambivalent about this feature. The system selection > color can clash with the default Emacs foreground/background color, > unless those colors are also taken from the system (which AFAIK it is > not). > > Well, Emacs does not try to avoid that either. On a non-gtk, but X Emacs do emacs -Q -bg lightgoldenrod2 and then mark some text. The region face will be invisible. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 15:12:53 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 19:12:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqDV-0007o3-3R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:12:53 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b12.telenor.se ([62.127.194.21]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqDT-0007nw-8Z for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:12:51 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-b12.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E991AC127 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:09:35 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqhjALSFXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFOB4iARALIRYPCQMCAQIBGwwKBgENBg0BBwEBh3C6Z4ZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214675764" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 21:09:35 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F62E7FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:09:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5E86F4.8040206@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:09:40 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Juri Linkov skrev 2011-08-31 11:35: >> Done in revision 105619 on the trunk. > > Thank you. I confirm that it's fixed now. > > As for platform-specific colors, what I meant is implementing exactly > the same handling of colors as currently is already implemented in Emacs > on Windows where `M-x list-colors-display' lists platform-specific colors > at the end of the color list: `SystemBackground', `SystemWindow', > `SystemWindowText' and all other system colors, and the user can select > system colors in `customize-face' via completion or the "Choose" button > that includes all platform-specific colors. > > Another question is why the face definition of `region' has > platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. > In Emacs on Windows two system colors are available exactly > for that purpose. Their names are `SystemHilight' (background) > and `SystemHilightText' (foreground). > As there is no mention of SystemHilight in the Emacs sources (well, except for one comment), I assume that W32 itself understands these colors. There is no equivalent on NS/Gtk+, hence it was invented. It is a trivial matter to change the names so they are the same on the various platforms. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 15:14:53 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 19:14:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqFR-0007rB-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:14:53 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b11.telenor.se ([62.127.194.20]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqFP-0007r4-RH for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:14:52 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-b11.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED2EEA7F7 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:11:36 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqpjAO+GXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFOB4iARALFAEMFg8JAwIBAgEbDAoUBg0BBQIBAYdwumWGVQSYM4t9 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214676107" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 21:11:36 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01E057FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:11:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:11:40 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Juri Linkov , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Eli Zaretskii skrev 2011-08-31 12:57: >> From: Juri Linkov >> Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:35:18 +0300 >> >>> Done in revision 105619 on the trunk. >> >> Thank you. I confirm that it's fixed now. > > Thanks for testing. > >> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has >> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. > > I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have > system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed > to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. The GUI is far from identical on all platforms. This is just a GUI thing, the behaviour is the same. For better integration with the desktop it is desirable to have the default highlight match other applications. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 15:20:51 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 19:20:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqLD-0000ER-9d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:20:51 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b11.telenor.se ([62.127.194.20]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqLB-0000EJ-QD for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:20:50 -0400 Received: from ipb3.telenor.se (ipb3.telenor.se [195.54.127.166]) by smtprelay-b11.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF8EEA84B for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:17:34 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqFjAE6IXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFOB4jEAshJQ8CHAwKBgENBg0BBwEBh3C6aYZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="37534047" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb3.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 21:17:33 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5EF37FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:17:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5E88C7.20403@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:17:27 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Juri Linkov skrev 2011-08-31 18:27: >>> Another question is why the face definition of `region' has >>> platform-specific colors for GTK and NS, but not for Windows. >> >> I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have >> system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was supposed >> to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible. > > Emacs should respect the user settings even if they are made on > system level. Emacs already respects the user's choice of > system-specific colors on a tty (with `unspecified-fg' and > `unspecified-bg') and some other system-specific customizations. > > I don't remember the goal of trying to look the same on all platforms > and indeed Emacs already doesn't look the same on different platforms: > there are different scroll bars, frame decorations, fonts, icons, etc. > So Emacs should adapt to the platform defaults as much as possible. > > What is still missing is using just few remaining colors for few platforms. > (And another thing is that the GTK version doesn't respect the user's GTK > settings for the blinking cursor, whereas the Windows version does). Very few people customize blink cursor, double click time, icon sizes, tooltip timeout and the other GTK settings (most which actually are GConf and/or GSettings, not GTK settings). I suspect most people don't even notice that double click time is different in Emacs and Gtk+ applications. So it hasn't been a high priority to follow all external settings. Just the most visible ones (font, dpi, and highlight) have been done. Patches welcome of course. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 15:25:15 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 19:25:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqPS-0000LC-W5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:25:15 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b11.telenor.se ([62.127.194.20]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyqPR-0000L5-2f for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:25:13 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-b11.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9AAEA880 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:21:58 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap1jAD2JXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFOB4jEAshJQ8eDAoUBg0BBwEBh3C6aoZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214677770" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 21:21:57 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB1637FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:21:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:22:02 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> In-Reply-To: <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Juri Linkov skrev 2011-08-31 20:35: >> >> Obviously, I disagree. Emacs should have the same defaults on all >> platforms, as much as possible. People such as myself who use Emacs >> on multiple platforms become very confused when the colors they expect >> don't show. > > For users that use more applications beside Emacs on one platform > it's annoying when Emacs doesn't follow common system-wide look and feel. > > I think there are more users that use many applications on one platform > and want all of them look the same than the number of users who use > just Emacs and switch platforms frequently. > > I use Emacs on multiple platforms and I do want Emacs to look like other applications on respective platform. But I think you are right about the majority. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 16:04:21 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 20:04:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyr1J-0003G7-42 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:04:21 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyr1F-0003Fy-1c for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:04:19 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT00700670GP00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:09 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT007T0688EW70@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:09 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:09 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> To: Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= Message-id: <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:11:40 +0200 > From: Jan Dj=E4rv > CC: Juri Linkov , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org >=20 > > I would actually turn the table and ask why the heck do we have > > system-specific defaults for GTK and NS. I thought Emacs was sup= posed > > to behave the same on all platforms, except where it's impossible= . >=20 > The GUI is far from identical on all platforms. ??? What do you mean by that? The widgets may look somewhat differently, but the behavior is the same and the menus present the same choices. > This is just a GUI thing, the behaviour is the same. Colors are significant, because humans tend to associate meaning to each color. Messing them up confuses those who have certain default colors hard-wired into their brains. IOW, it's not "just a GUI thing", it's a very important part of Emacs look-and-feel. > For better integration with the desktop it is desirable to have the > default highlight match other applications. Obviously, I couldn't disagree more, when colors are involved. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 16:15:00 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 20:15:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrBc-0003UC-Dz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:15:00 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrBa-0003U4-B3 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:14:59 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88DEE6E806B; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65312451C404; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:10:20 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:09 +0300") Message-ID: <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > Colors are significant, because humans tend to associate meaning to > each color. Messing them up confuses those who have certain default > colors hard-wired into their brains. You can't have the same colors even on one platform now. When you run Emacs on a tty you get an absolutely different set of colors than when you run Emacs on X. When you run Emacs on dark background, you get different colors than on light background, and so on. So an attempt to bring all colors to some unique set is futile. It would be better to do what most users want to see by default. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 16:19:11 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 20:19:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrFe-0004H6-Ti for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:19:11 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrFc-0004Gv-Rb for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:19:10 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT001006VGKC00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:14:49 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT000156WOHP41@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:14:49 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:14:49 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> To: Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= Message-id: <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:22:02 +0200 > From: Jan Dj=E4rv > CC: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org >=20 > > For users that use more applications beside Emacs on one platform > > it's annoying when Emacs doesn't follow common system-wide look a= nd feel. > > > > I think there are more users that use many applications on one pl= atform > > and want all of them look the same than the number of users who u= se > > just Emacs and switch platforms frequently. > > > > >=20 > I use Emacs on multiple platforms and I do want Emacs to look like = other=20 > applications on respective platform. But I think you are right abo= ut the=20 > majority. I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI design that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no longer true. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 16:33:58 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 20:33:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrTy-0005J5-H7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:33:58 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyrTw-0005Ix-Ar for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:33:57 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C4C6E8064; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F0B451C404; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:30:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:28:35 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:14:49 +0300") Message-ID: <87wrdtcolm.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI design > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > longer true. I think the only thing where the opinion of the majority should be decisive is the default values. Everything should be customizable for the minority. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 17:09:48 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 21:09:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qys2e-0007U7-Ao for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:09:48 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b21.telenor.se ([195.54.99.212]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qys2b-0007Ty-1h for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:09:46 -0400 Received: from ipb4.telenor.se (ipb4.telenor.se [195.54.127.167]) by smtprelay-b21.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C1AC163 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:06:28 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqdjAKGhXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEEATgeIgEQCyEWDwkDAgECARsMChQGDQEHAQGHbgK6P4ZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="1756352484" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb4.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 23:06:26 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2516D7FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:06:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5EA256.1000004@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:06:30 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Eli Zaretskii skrev 2011-08-31 22:00: > > Colors are significant, because humans tend to associate meaning to > each color. Messing them up confuses those who have certain default > colors hard-wired into their brains. > I agree, but the "messing up" is done by Emacs when not using system colors. Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 17:10:59 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2011 21:11:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qys3n-0007Vx-NG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:10:59 -0400 Received: from smtprelay-b21.telenor.se ([195.54.99.212]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qys3m-0007Vq-8b for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:10:58 -0400 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-b21.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F93C161 for <9402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:07:42 +0200 (CEST) X-SENDER-IP: [85.225.45.26] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqxjANuhXk5V4S0aPGdsb2JhbABCiRKfOgsBAQEBHhkNJYFAAQEFMgEFHiIBEAsUAQwWDwkDAgECARsMChQGDQEFAgEBh3C6P4ZVBJgzi30 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,309,1312149600"; d="scan'208";a="214693839" Received: from c-1a2de155.25-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se (HELO coolsville.localdomain) ([85.225.45.26]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2011 23:07:40 +0200 Received: from [172.20.199.13] (zeplin [172.20.199.13]) by coolsville.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0CAC27FA059; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:07:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E5EA2A0.6010409@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:07:44 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Dj=E4rv?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) Eli Zaretskii skrev 2011-08-31 22:14: >> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:22:02 +0200 >> From: Jan Dj=E4rv >> CC: Eli Zaretskii, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org >> >>> For users that use more applications beside Emacs on one platform >>> it's annoying when Emacs doesn't follow common system-wide look and f= eel. >>> >>> I think there are more users that use many applications on one platfo= rm >>> and want all of them look the same than the number of users who use >>> just Emacs and switch platforms frequently. >>> >>> >> >> I use Emacs on multiple platforms and I do want Emacs to look like oth= er >> applications on respective platform. But I think you are right about = the >> majority. > > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI design > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > longer true. Isn't the only reson for a windows port the fact that so many use windows= ? Jan D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 22:15:58 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 02:15:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qywow-0003FC-CW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:15:58 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.146]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qywot-0003F5-TM for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:15:56 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp-128-36-14-41.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p812CcpE014469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:12:39 -0400 From: Chong Yidong To: Jan =?utf-8?Q?Dj=C3=A4rv?= Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87wrdt1rnw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <4E5E8535.8090609@swipnet.se> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:12:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4E5E8535.8090609@swipnet.se> ("Jan \=\?utf-8\?Q\?Dj\=C3\=A4rv\=22's\?\= message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:02:13 +0200") Message-ID: <87y5y9nh7t.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.146 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Jan Dj=C3=A4rv writes: > Well, Emacs does not try to avoid that either. On a non-gtk, but X > Emacs do emacs -Q -bg lightgoldenrod2 > > and then mark some text. The region face will be invisible. The two cases differ. If the user changes a color via Emacs, she should be responsible for color clashes. But if the user changes system colors outside Emacs (e.g. via a desktop theme), and that leads to a color clash in Emacs because Emacs only looks at the highlight color, that can be considered an Emacs problem. I don't think this is a huge problem, but it's certainly worth looking into at some point. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 22:18:24 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 02:18:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QywrF-0003Ir-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:18:24 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-03.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.144]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QywrE-0003Ik-6X for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:18:20 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp-128-36-14-41.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-03.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p812F3TU004048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:15:03 -0400 From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:15:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:14:49 +0300") Message-ID: <87ty8xnh3s.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.144 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, Jan =?utf-8?Q?Dj=C3=A4rv?= X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I use Emacs on multiple platforms and I do want Emacs to look like >> other applications on respective platform. But I think you are right >> about the majority. > > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI design > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > longer true. I think it is an exaggeration to refer to altering the region's background color as a case of succumbing to tyranny. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 22:55:10 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 02:55:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxQs-0005Ut-7N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:55:10 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxQp-0005Uk-5u for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:55:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT00300P2V9I00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:50:29 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT0032RP847X60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:50:29 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:50:30 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> To: Juri Linkov Message-id: <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: Jan Dj=E4rv , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:10:20 +0300 >=20 > You can't have the same colors even on one platform now. > When you run Emacs on a tty you get an absolutely different set of = colors > than when you run Emacs on X. It's not absolutely different. It approximates the X colors where that is possible. I did say the behavior should be the same "as much as possible", didn't I? > When you run Emacs on dark background, you get different colors > than on light background, and so on. Aha, and what would your "system defaults" do when the background mod= e changes? The Windows "default" region color is a very deep blue background, which will be almost invisible on a dark background. > So an attempt to bring all colors to some unique set is futile. Yeah, right. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 22:59:41 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 02:59:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxVE-0005ag-Tw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxVC-0005aZ-QH for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:39 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT00300P2V9I00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:54:11 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT0036IPE9AH00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:54:11 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:54:10 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <87wrdtcolm.fsf@mail.jurta.org> To: Juri Linkov Message-id: <83ei01dlbh.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> <87wrdtcolm.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: Jan Dj=E4rv , 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:28:35 +0300 >=20 > > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI desig= n > > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > > longer true. >=20 > I think the only thing where the opinion of the majority should > be decisive is the default values. Everything should be > customizable for the minority. I was talking about the principle of similar behavior. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 22:59:58 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 02:59:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxVV-0005b9-Sm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:58 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QyxVT-0005b0-FM for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:56 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT00J00PF0SH00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:56:38 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT00J9GPICSC20@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:56:37 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:56:38 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <4E5EA2A0.6010409@swipnet.se> To: Jan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dj=E4rv?= Message-id: <83d3fldl7d.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> <4E5EA2A0.6010409@swipnet.se> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:07:44 +0200 > From: Jan Dj=E4rv > CC: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org >=20 > > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI desig= n > > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > > longer true. >=20 > Isn't the only reson for a windows port the fact that so many use w= indows? And that adversely affects Unix users how exactly? It doesn't, so there's no majority tyranny here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 31 23:10:27 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 03:10:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyxff-0006Wl-2E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:10:27 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qyxfb-0006Wc-Ph for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:10:25 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LQT00500PJX2B00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:07:05 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.229.83.44]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LQT005PRPZR1O50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:07:05 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:07:05 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display In-reply-to: <87ty8xnh3s.fsf@stupidchicken.com> To: Chong Yidong Message-id: <83aaapdkpy.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87ei01lfa7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83r541eaxq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k49tfmw7.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E89DA.5@swipnet.se> <83ippde3t2.fsf@gnu.org> <87ty8xnh3s.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: juri@jurta.org, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: Chong Yidong > Cc: Jan Dj=E4rv , juri@jurta.org, > 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:15:03 -0400 >=20 > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > >> I use Emacs on multiple platforms and I do want Emacs to look li= ke > >> other applications on respective platform. But I think you are = right > >> about the majority. > > > > I always thought that there are some principles in Emacs UI desig= n > > that are not subject to the majority tyranny. I guess that's no > > longer true. >=20 > I think it is an exaggeration to refer to altering the region's > background color as a case of succumbing to tyranny. I actually meant that issues of principles such as platform-independent behavior should not be decided by majority. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 01 04:50:40 2011 Received: (at 9402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 08:50:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz2yu-0004Ow-8t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 04:50:40 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz2yr-0004Oo-A1 for 9402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 04:50:38 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A2C6E8052; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7982451C367; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 01:47:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:36:44 +0300 In-Reply-To: <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 01 Sep 2011 05:50:30 +0300") Message-ID: <87y5y81x5b.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402 Cc: 9402@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > Aha, and what would your "system defaults" do when the background mode > changes? The Windows "default" region color is a very deep blue > background, which will be almost invisible on a dark background. Exactly the same deep blue background is currently used by default on a dark background in the face definition: (defface region '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark)) :background "blue3") :-P From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 01 06:09:27 2011 Received: (at 9402-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 10:09:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz4D8-00017P-KT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:09:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz4D6-00017I-6L for 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:09:24 -0400 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz49t-0006Uh-In; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:06:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:06:05 -0400 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-reply-to: <87y5y81x5b.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (message from Juri Linkov on Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:36:44 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5y81x5b.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402-done Cc: 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se, 9402@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:36:44 +0300 > > > Aha, and what would your "system defaults" do when the background mode > > changes? The Windows "default" region color is a very deep blue > > background, which will be almost invisible on a dark background. > > Exactly the same deep blue background is currently used by default > on a dark background in the face definition: > > (defface region > '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark)) > :background "blue3") No, they are different. Look at the RGB values, if you don't see that by just looking at the colors. Blue3 looks sufficiently different from black on my display. Anyway, time to close this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 01 09:28:12 2011 Received: (at 9402-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 13:28:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz7JT-000615-J4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:28:12 -0400 Received: from smarty.dreamhost.com ([208.113.175.8]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz7JP-00060q-JK for 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:28:09 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhostps.com (ps18281.dreamhost.com [69.163.218.105]) by smarty.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBF56E809D; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 06:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D2E451C255; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 06:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display Organization: JURTA References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5y81x5b.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 16:18:17 +0300 In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 01 Sep 2011 06:06:05 -0400") Message-ID: <87aaaoxv0i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402-done Cc: 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> > Aha, and what would your "system defaults" do when the background mode >> > changes? The Windows "default" region color is a very deep blue >> > background, which will be almost invisible on a dark background. >> >> Exactly the same deep blue background is currently used by default >> on a dark background in the face definition: >> >> (defface region >> '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark)) >> :background "blue3") > > No, they are different. Look at the RGB values, if you don't see that > by just looking at the colors. Blue3 looks sufficiently different > from black on my display. On Windows the background of `SystemHilight' is #3399ff that is lighter than blue3 (#0000cd). > Anyway, time to close this bug report. Ok, at least with the current status quo, the users of the Windows version can select a system color, and the users of GTK/NS even though can't select a system color but can leave default system colors unchanged :) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 01 09:42:37 2011 Received: (at 9402-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2011 13:42:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz7XQ-00071Z-EW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:42:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz7XP-00071S-0z for 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qz7UB-0002eO-94; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:39:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:39:15 -0400 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii To: Juri Linkov In-reply-to: <87aaaoxv0i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (message from Juri Linkov on Thu, 01 Sep 2011 16:18:17 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#9402: list-colors-display References: <87obz83v0x.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <838vqcf086.fsf@gnu.org> <834o0yg5cm.fsf@gnu.org> <8762ldvs89.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <4E5E876C.3040206@swipnet.se> <83liu9e4hi.fsf@gnu.org> <87pqjle40j.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <83hb4xdlhl.fsf@gnu.org> <87y5y81x5b.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87aaaoxv0i.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9402-done Cc: 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org, jan.h.d@swipnet.se X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > From: Juri Linkov > Cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se, 9402-done@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 16:18:17 +0300 > > >> Exactly the same deep blue background is currently used by default > >> on a dark background in the face definition: > >> > >> (defface region > >> '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark)) > >> :background "blue3") > > > > No, they are different. Look at the RGB values, if you don't see that > > by just looking at the colors. Blue3 looks sufficiently different > > from black on my display. > > On Windows the background of `SystemHilight' is #3399ff > that is lighter than blue3 (#0000cd). Not here: I get #0a246a for SystemHilight. Strange. From unknown Sun Aug 17 10:17:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator