GNU bug report logs - #9349
24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:20 +0200

From Emacsc -Q:

1. Open the info node "(elisp)Association List Type".
2. Try to search for the word "see" (C-s see <RET>).

Surprisingly, the search fails, even though the word exists in the
buffer (beginning of last paragraph).

If I move the cursor to that word and type `C-x =', I see:

Char: * (42, #o52, #x2a, part of display "*Not..."->"See ")
point=123845 of 300271 (41%) <123062-124062> column=3

I don't understand want's going on here, but it seems undesirable to
see a word in the buffer and not be able to search for it.


-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #10 received at 9349-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 9349-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:23:17 +0300

> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:20 +0200
> From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
> 
> >From Emacsc -Q:
> 
> 1. Open the info node "(elisp)Association List Type".
> 2. Try to search for the word "see" (C-s see <RET>).
> 
> Surprisingly, the search fails, even though the word exists in the
> buffer (beginning of last paragraph).

No, it doesn't.

> If I move the cursor to that word and type `C-x =', I see:
> 
> Char: * (42, #o52, #x2a, part of display "*Not..."->"See ")
> point=123845 of 300271 (41%) <123062-124062> column=3

This tells you that the "See" is a display string, and the real text
in the buffer is "*Note".  The display string "covers" that text, and
is therefore displayed in its stead.  See the node "Display Property"
in the ELisp manual.  Set Info-hide-note-references to nil to see the
real text.

> I don't understand want's going on here, but it seems undesirable to
> see a word in the buffer and not be able to search for it.

It's a feature.  I'm closing the bug.

Message #11 received at 9349-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 9349-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:44:49 +0200

Hi Eli,

>> Surprisingly, the search fails, even though the word exists in the
>> buffer (beginning of last paragraph).
>
> No, it doesn't.

From an user POV, it does exist (the users is seeing it there).

>> If I move the cursor to that word and type `C-x =', I see:
>>
>> Char: * (42, #o52, #x2a, part of display "*Not..."->"See ")
>> point=123845 of 300271 (41%) <123062-124062> column=3
>
> This tells you that the "See" is a display string, and the real text
> in the buffer is "*Note".  The display string "covers" that text, and
> is therefore displayed in its stead.  See the node "Display Property"
> in the ELisp manual.  Set Info-hide-note-references to nil to see the
> real text.

Thanks for the explanation.  I guessed it would be something like that.

>> I don't understand want's going on here, but it seems undesirable to
>> see a word in the buffer and not be able to search for it.
>
> It's a feature.  I'm closing the bug.

Ok, but I guess you agree with me that the current behavior can be a
disconcerting for users, because the normally would want to work with
the text they _see_, and know nothing about display strings.

Anyway I understand it now, and I can live with it.  Thanks again.


-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #14 received at 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:57:00 +0300

> 1. Open the info node "(elisp)Association List Type".
> 2. Try to search for the word "see" (C-s see <RET>).
>
> Surprisingly, the search fails, even though the word exists in the
> buffer (beginning of last paragraph).

If you wanted to search the word "see" to navigate between links
then using TAB and S-TAB is an easier way to do the same.

Maybe we should consider changing the default value of
`Info-hide-note-references' to `hide' that will hide both verbs
"*Note" and "See", because nowadays the users of web browsers
understand that a blue underlined link implies a standard action
to visit it, so no additional invitational verb is necessary.

Message #17 received at 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo <at> gmail.com>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:56:49 +0200

Hi Juri,

> If you wanted to search the word "see" to navigate between links
> then using TAB and S-TAB is an easier way to do the same.

Yes, I know.  I was not trying to navigate between links (I realized
it by a fluke).

> Maybe we should consider changing the default value of
> `Info-hide-note-references' to `hide' that will hide both verbs
> "*Note" and "See", because nowadays the users of web browsers
> understand that a blue underlined link implies a standard action
> to visit it, so no additional invitational verb is necessary.

But if you hide "See", the resulting wording will not make sense.

IMO, the problem is that you are seeing text in the buffer (and
therefore you think it belongs to the buffer), and yet you can't
search for it.

Besides, if you try to copy it and paste into another application, you
will also get an unexpected result (the pasted text will be the hidden
one).

-- 
Dani Moncayo

Message #20 received at 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:32:53 +0300

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:57:00 +0300
> Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Maybe we should consider changing the default value of
> `Info-hide-note-references' to `hide' that will hide both verbs
> "*Note" and "See"

It would also be nice to have a feature whereby C-s could find matches
in display strings, not only in buffer text.

Message #23 received at 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:32:59 +0300

> It would also be nice to have a feature whereby C-s could find matches
> in display strings, not only in buffer text.

This won't fix other problems in display strings like copy/paste.

I think for Info it would be easier to avoid all these problems by
modifying the text in the Info buffer (i.e. replacing "*Note" with "See")
instead of putting display properties.  This means detaching Info buffers
from Info files, not using narrowing, using positions relative to the
beginning of the node instead of the beginning of the Info file, etc.

Message #26 received at 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#9349: 24.0.50; Weird text in info buffer
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:58:26 +0300

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
> Cc: dmoncayo <at> gmail.com,  9349 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:32:59 +0300
> 
> > It would also be nice to have a feature whereby C-s could find matches
> > in display strings, not only in buffer text.
> 
> This won't fix other problems in display strings like copy/paste.

Then let's add that feature as well.  One at a time, though ;-)

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