GNU bug report logs - #9302
nmail-extra-headers too mysterious

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (The Gnus Bugfixing Girls + Boys)
Subject: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:48:27 -0400

I just saw this message flash by:

  `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'

which is mysterious enough as it is, and should be more descriptive.
Why would I care that `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'?  Why
would Gnus care?

Near as I can tell by trolling through the info manual, this variable
has something to do with making information available to summary line
display, but if that's the case, it's hardly obvious from its docstring,
which is simply "Extra headers to parse."  Parse when?  For what purpose?


No Gnus v0.18
GNU Emacs 23.3.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin10.8.0, Carbon Version 1.6.0 AppKit 1038.36)
 of 2011-08-01 on vulcan
200 news.gmane.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.5.1 ready (posting ok)
101 Capability list:
VERSION 2
IMPLEMENTATION INN 2.5.1
AUTHINFO USER
HDR
LIST ACTIVE ACTIVE.TIMES DISTRIB.PATS HEADERS NEWSGROUPS OVERVIEW.FMT
OVER
POST
READER
STARTTLS
.

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #8 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 02:05:14 +0200

Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:

> I just saw this message flash by:
>
>   `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'
>
> which is mysterious enough as it is, and should be more descriptive.
> Why would I care that `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'?  Why
> would Gnus care?

Because you tried to limit the summary buffer (or something like that)
using criteria Gnus didn't have, because `nnmail-extra-headers' didn't
include Cc.

> Near as I can tell by trolling through the info manual, this variable
> has something to do with making information available to summary line
> display, but if that's the case, it's hardly obvious from its docstring,
> which is simply "Extra headers to parse."  Parse when?  For what purpose?

Parse to make available for Gnus.  I've clarified the doc string slightly.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #15 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:55:09 -0400

on Wed Aug 17 2011, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi-AT-gnus.org> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:
>
>> I just saw this message flash by:
>>
>>   `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'
>>
>> which is mysterious enough as it is, and should be more descriptive.
>> Why would I care that `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'?  Why
>> would Gnus care?
>
> Because you tried to limit the summary buffer (or something like that)
> using criteria Gnus didn't have, because `nnmail-extra-headers' didn't
> include Cc.

Interesting... now *that* would make an informative error message!  How
about changing it to something based on what you wrote above?

Hmm, I was not using any kind of creative limit―it would have been one
of the built-in options (perhaps `/ A' ?)
Maybe this means the default for nnmail-extra-headers is wrong.
Shouldn't the built-in queries work out-of-the-box?

>> Near as I can tell by trolling through the info manual, this variable
>> has something to do with making information available to summary line
>> display, but if that's the case, it's hardly obvious from its docstring,
>> which is simply "Extra headers to parse."  Parse when?  For what purpose?
>
> Parse to make available for Gnus.  

Which, I'm sorry to say, gives me no new information.  If Gnus is
parsing something it is naturally going to be for programmatic
consumption.  Maybe you want to say something about what kinds of things
Gnus might do with that information (e.g. limit).

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #18 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane <at> imap.cc>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>, 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: bugs <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:53:48 +0200

On Thu, Aug 18 2011, Dave Abrahams wrote:

> Hmm, I was not using any kind of creative limit—it would have been one
> of the built-in options (perhaps `/ A' ?)

`gnus-summary-limit-to-address' or `gnus-summary-limit-to-recipient'.

> Maybe this means the default for nnmail-extra-headers is wrong.
> Shouldn't the built-in queries work out-of-the-box?

I don't have a strong opionion about adding Cc to the default of
`nnmail-extra-headers', but keep in mnd the just adding it doesn't
make it work automatically for old mail, cf. ...

,----[ (info "(gnus)To From Newsgroups") ]
|    A related variable is `nnmail-extra-headers', which controls when to
| include extra headers when generating overview (NOV) files.  If you
| have old overview files, you should regenerate them after changing this
| variable, by entering the server buffer using `^', and then `g' on the
| appropriate mail server (e.g. nnml) to cause regeneration.
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Message #21 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib <at> gmx.de>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bugs <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:28:56 -0400

on Fri Aug 19 2011, Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane-AT-imap.cc> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 18 2011, Dave Abrahams wrote:
>
>> Hmm, I was not using any kind of creative limit―it would have been one
>> of the built-in options (perhaps `/ A' ?)
>
> `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' or `gnus-summary-limit-to-recipient'.
>
>> Maybe this means the default for nnmail-extra-headers is wrong.
>> Shouldn't the built-in queries work out-of-the-box?
>
> I don't have a strong opionion about adding Cc to the default of
> `nnmail-extra-headers', but keep in mnd the just adding it doesn't
> make it work automatically for old mail, cf. ...
>
> ,----[ (info "(gnus)To From Newsgroups") ]
> |    A related variable is `nnmail-extra-headers', which controls when to
> | include extra headers when generating overview (NOV) files.  If you
> | have old overview files, you should regenerate them after changing this
> | variable, by entering the server buffer using `^', and then `g' on the
> | appropriate mail server (e.g. nnml) to cause regeneration.
> `----

Understood.  I just think it's crazy to have a default configuration
where built-in commands that are in the menus and enabled will
unconditionally cause an error.

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #24 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:07:32 +0200

Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:

>>> I just saw this message flash by:
>>>
>>>   `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'
>>>
>>> which is mysterious enough as it is, and should be more descriptive.
>>> Why would I care that `Cc' isn't present in `nnmail-extra-headers'?  Why
>>> would Gnus care?
>>
>> Because you tried to limit the summary buffer (or something like that)
>> using criteria Gnus didn't have, because `nnmail-extra-headers' didn't
>> include Cc.
>
> Interesting... now *that* would make an informative error message!  How
> about changing it to something based on what you wrote above?

It's too long.  I think the current message is a clear enough hint what
you have to twiddle if you want that functionality.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #27 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 04:02:00 -0400

on Sat Sep 10 2011, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi-AT-gnus.org> wrote:

>> Interesting... now *that* would make an informative error message!  How
>> about changing it to something based on what you wrote above?
>
> It's too long.  I think the current message is a clear enough hint what
> you have to twiddle if you want that functionality.

"What to twiddle" is perfectly clear, but "what functionality generated
the message" isn't.  My point is that:

* We have a command `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' that won't function
  correctly in Gnus' default configuration

* It generates a warning about a variable whose connection to the
  problem is non-obvious from its documentation

  (BTW, what's the difference between gnus-extra-headers and
  nnmail-extra-headers?)

* The warning is easy to miss

I feel like I just got lucky and noticed that my configuration was
wrong, but wasn't given the tools to understand how the configuration
should have been set up to begin with.  Shouldn't `/ A' check to see
whether `Cc:' has been parsed and ask whether I want to add it to
`nnmail-extra-headers'?

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #30 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:58:09 +0200

Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:

> * We have a command `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' that won't function
>   correctly in Gnus' default configuration

Yes.  There's bits and pieces in Gnus for people with special
configurations and setups.

> * It generates a warning about a variable whose connection to the
>   problem is non-obvious from its documentation
>
>   (BTW, what's the difference between gnus-extra-headers and
>   nnmail-extra-headers?)

The latter says what extra headers the backends should try to give to
Gnus, if possible.  

> I feel like I just got lucky and noticed that my configuration was
> wrong, but wasn't given the tools to understand how the configuration
> should have been set up to begin with.  Shouldn't `/ A' check to see
> whether `Cc:' has been parsed and ask whether I want to add it to
> `nnmail-extra-headers'?

`/ A' can't know whether the missing presence of Cc is due to one or the
other.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #33 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 13:11:57 -0400

on Sun Sep 11 2011, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi-AT-gnus.org> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:
>
>> * We have a command `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' that won't function
>>   correctly in Gnus' default configuration
>
> Yes.  There's bits and pieces in Gnus for people with special
> configurations and setups.

Nothing marks this command out as being "for people with special
configurations and setups" other than that you just said so.  It's very
surprising to see it not work.

>> * It generates a warning about a variable whose connection to the
>>   problem is non-obvious from its documentation
>>
>>   (BTW, what's the difference between gnus-extra-headers and
>>   nnmail-extra-headers?)
>
> The latter says what extra headers the backends should try to give to
> Gnus, if possible.  

OK, again I am left wondering when this transfer happens for what
purpose gnus will use these headers.  Clearly(?) limiting is not using
gnus-extra-headers and only using the nnmail-extra-headers... so there's
some other purpose?

>> I feel like I just got lucky and noticed that my configuration was
>> wrong, but wasn't given the tools to understand how the configuration
>> should have been set up to begin with.  Shouldn't `/ A' check to see
>> whether `Cc:' has been parsed and ask whether I want to add it to
>> `nnmail-extra-headers'?
>
> `/ A' can't know whether the missing presence of Cc is due to one or the
> other.

You must have misunderstood me; let me try again.  

Why not modify `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' so that it checks
immediately whether "to" and "cc" are in the appropriate -extra-headers
variables and if not, asks the user whether s/he wants to include them
(and if necessary, re-fetch headers or whatever else Gnus needs to do to
make this command work properly)?  That sort of prompt wouldn't slip by
unnoticed the same way a warning would.

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #36 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:51:28 +0200

Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:

> Why not modify `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' so that it checks
> immediately whether "to" and "cc" are in the appropriate -extra-headers
> variables and if not, asks the user whether s/he wants to include them
> (and if necessary, re-fetch headers or whatever else Gnus needs to do to
> make this command work properly)?

Re-fetching wouldn't help on most backends.  nnml uses the variable in
question when creating the .nov overview files.  For the variable to
have any effect in nnml, for instance, you'd have to regenerate all your
.nov files.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #39 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:41:40 -0400

on Sun Sep 11 2011, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi-AT-gnus.org> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:
>
>> Why not modify `gnus-summary-limit-to-address' so that it checks
>> immediately whether "to" and "cc" are in the appropriate -extra-headers
>> variables and if not, asks the user whether s/he wants to include them
>> (and if necessary, re-fetch headers or whatever else Gnus needs to do to
>> make this command work properly)?
>
> Re-fetching wouldn't help on most backends.  nnml uses the variable in
> question when creating the .nov overview files.  For the variable to
> have any effect in nnml, for instance, you'd have to regenerate all your
> .nov files.

Sorry, I meant "do whatever is necessary to get in sync."  In this case,
based on what you wrote above, I guess it would mean regenerating the
.nov files.

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Message #42 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>
Cc: 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:26:08 +0200

Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com> writes:

> Sorry, I meant "do whatever is necessary to get in sync."  In this case,
> based on what you wrote above, I guess it would mean regenerating the
> .nov files.

That's not realistic -- regenerating the headers might take hours.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #49 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>
Cc: Dave Abrahams <dave <at> boostpro.com>, 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bugs <at> gnus.org,
	Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib <at> gmx.de>
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 01:23:14 +0100

Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com> writes:

> FWIW, independently of the other issues raised in this bug, I think Cc
> headers should be in `nnmail-extra-headers'.  Looking forward, it's a
> beneficial change for the users and the expense is minimal.

I've now done this in Ma Gnus.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Message #52 received at 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>
To: bugs <at> gnus.org
Cc: dave <at> boostpro.com, 9302 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Reiner.Steib <at> gmx.de
Subject: Re: bug#9302: nmail-extra-headers too mysterious
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:02:58 -0500

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 01:23:14 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com> writes:
>> FWIW, independently of the other issues raised in this bug, I think Cc
>> headers should be in `nnmail-extra-headers'.  Looking forward, it's a
>> beneficial change for the users and the expense is minimal.

LI> I've now done this in Ma Gnus.

Thanks!

Ted

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