From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 02:33:30 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Aug 2011 06:33:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOpd-0002vE-4B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:33:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOpZ-0002v6-Ap for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:33:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOoI-0001Ot-Bn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:32:07 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:35135) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOoI-0001Op-AL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:32:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39641) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOoH-0000hD-AQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:32:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOoG-0001Od-D4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:32:05 -0400 Received: from tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de ([131.188.164.197]:8777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QrOoF-0001N7-6k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 02:32:04 -0400 Received: from regnitz (ep019.ep.nctu.edu.tw [140.113.28.19]) by tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3566928C12; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:31:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:31:08 -0500 Message-Id: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> From: "Roland Winkler" To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Daiki Ueno , Ted Zlatanov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Recently I filed bug report #9112 saying that I could not create new gpg-encrypted files anymore the way I was expecting it from emacs 23, namely with a key selection UI. I learned from Daiki that this is due to a change of the default value of epa-file-select-keys from nil to 'silent in Emacs 24, which means symmetric encryption is now the default. This followed discussions mostly by Daiki, Ted, and Lars. I disagree with this change of the default value of epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent" default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself until recently). Part of the problem is that for symmetric encryption gpg will simply pop up a pinentry window saying "enter passphrase". But nothing tells the user that the file he or she wants to save is just about to go through symmetric encryption (and not any other encryption mechanism the user might hope for). Yet any misunderstanding concerning the encryption mechanism could imply that a file is essentially lost after saving. We cannot change easily the brief behavior of the pinentry window. So I request that the default of epa-file-select-keys should go back to nil which provides a key selection UI so that the user gets some ideas what the options are. Ted, Lars, and also I myself, we can always customize things to make the behavior more brief and geared towards our personal needs. But making the brief behavior the default, assuming that the average user understands all these things, in my opinion is asking for trouble and confusion. In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1) of 2011-07-16 on regnitz From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 09:19:30 2011 Received: (at 9280) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Aug 2011 13:19:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrVAY-0004u7-0x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:19:30 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrVAQ-0004tv-Lm for 9280@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:19:28 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAK/VQ05FxKeo/2dsb2JhbABBp0Z4gUABAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIArx7hkcEn2aEMw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,355,1309752000"; d="scan'208";a="130617782" Received: from 69-196-167-168.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.167.168]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 11 Aug 2011 09:18:02 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2B3626610B; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:18:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil Message-ID: References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:18:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:31:08 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280 Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Daiki Ueno , Ted Zlatanov , 9280@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > I disagree with this change of the default value of > epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent" > default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself > until recently). I tend to agree. > Part of the problem is that for symmetric encryption gpg will simply > pop up a pinentry window saying "enter passphrase". But nothing tells > the user that the file he or she wants to save is just about to go > through symmetric encryption (and not any other encryption mechanism > the user might hope for). The "enter passphrase" dialog should at the very least indicate what kind of passphrase is expected (in this case a passphrase for symmetric encryption). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 21:14:48 2011 Received: (at 9280) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2011 01:14:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrgKl-0006uK-PX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:14:48 -0400 Received: from ivory4.scn-net.ne.jp ([219.117.176.192]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrgKg-0006u7-3e for 9280@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:14:45 -0400 Received: from ([192.168.0.187]) (envelope sender: ) by ivory4.scn-net.ne.jp with Active!Hunter esmtp server; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:13:15 +0900 Received: Received: from well-done.deisui.org (g187018.scn-net.ne.jp [202.83.187.18]) (authenticated) by blue17.scn-net.ne.jp (unknown) with ESMTP id p7C1DCTB015596; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:13:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: Daiki Ueno To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:13:04 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:18:01 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Roland Winkler , 9280@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) Stefan Monnier writes: >> I disagree with this change of the default value of >> epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent" >> default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself >> until recently). > > I tend to agree. IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg. However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg) is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil. Regards, -- Daiki Ueno From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 22:07:06 2011 Received: (at 9280) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2011 02:07:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrh9N-00083l-Mp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:07:05 -0400 Received: from tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de ([131.188.164.197]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qrh9M-00083e-H0 for 9280@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:07:05 -0400 Received: from regnitz (GH176-68.guesthouse.nctu.edu.tw [140.113.176.68]) by tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE74628C30; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 04:05:35 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20036.35433.695635.965543@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:05:29 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" To: Daiki Ueno Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil In-Reply-To: References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier , 9280@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) On Fri Aug 12 2011 Daiki Ueno wrote: > IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to > repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg. However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg) > is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe > to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil. In a way, I am a bit surprised about the rationale for these changes. - the default value of epa-file-select-keys was changed because of ~/.authinfo.gpg. But obviously this change affects many completely unrelated situations, too. - Now the value of epa-file-select-keys is not a problem anymore because ~/.authinfo.gpg by default got renamed to ~/.authinfo, which is causing new problems, see #9113. It seems to me that here only symptoms are treated in a way that cause all kinds of new problems. -- I do not fully understand what motivated these changes in the first place. Yet it appears to me that it might be necessary to seek a proper solution in a different way. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 22:53:33 2011 Received: (at 9280) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2011 02:53:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrhsK-0000eo-Bh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:53:33 -0400 Received: from ivory4.scn-net.ne.jp ([219.117.176.192]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrhsH-0000ee-DD for 9280@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:53:31 -0400 Received: from ([192.168.0.187]) (envelope sender: ) by ivory4.scn-net.ne.jp with Active!Hunter esmtp server; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:52:03 +0900 Received: Received: from well-done.deisui.org (g187018.scn-net.ne.jp [202.83.187.18]) (authenticated) by blue17.scn-net.ne.jp (unknown) with ESMTP id p7C2q1wV008714; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:52:01 +0900 Message-ID: From: Daiki Ueno To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> <20036.35433.695635.965543@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:51:53 +0900 In-Reply-To: <20036.35433.695635.965543@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:05:29 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier , 9280@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) "Roland Winkler" writes: > In a way, I am a bit surprised about the rationale for these changes. > > - the default value of epa-file-select-keys was changed because of > ~/.authinfo.gpg. But obviously this change affects many completely > unrelated situations, too. Right. > - Now the value of epa-file-select-keys is not a problem anymore > because ~/.authinfo.gpg by default got renamed to ~/.authinfo, > which is causing new problems, see #9113. I think Ted is working on making ~/.authinfo partially encrypted, though it won't work with GnuPG2 and/or gpg-agent and calls gpg program many times. Maybe you could try: (setq auth-sources '("~/.emacs.d/auth.plist")) *.plist file is handled by a different backend which I added recently, that supports partial encryption without hassles. Regards, -- Daiki Ueno From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 23:30:39 2011 Received: (at 9280) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2011 03:30:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QriSE-0001S0-SO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 23:30:39 -0400 Received: from tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de ([131.188.164.197]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QriSC-0001Rs-Lu for 9280@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2011 23:30:37 -0400 Received: from regnitz (GH176-68.guesthouse.nctu.edu.tw [140.113.176.68]) by tfkpsv.physik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8BC28C30; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:29:07 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20036.40442.225382.229504@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:28:58 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" To: Daiki Ueno Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil In-Reply-To: References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> <20036.35433.695635.965543@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280 Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier , 9280@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) On Fri Aug 12 2011 Daiki Ueno wrote: > Maybe you could try: (setq auth-sources '("~/.emacs.d/auth.plist")) > *.plist file is handled by a different backend which I added recently, > that supports partial encryption without hassles. Thanks. Actually, I have already done something like this. -- I am sure that for all these variables in the end I can find settings that suit my taste / needs. Yet I want to note once more that I submitted this bug report because I believe that default settings of user variables should be the most reasonable for users who have not yet browsed through the code to figure these things out for themselves. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 12 10:09:45 2011 Received: (at 9280-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2011 14:09:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrsQi-0008Vt-SX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:09:45 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QrsQf-0008Vi-Cn for 9280-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:09:42 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArEGAPYyRU5FxKeo/2dsb2JhbABBmGyPCniBQAEBBAFWMws0EhQYDYgmug2GRwSfaoQz X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,362,1309752000"; d="scan'208";a="130771094" Received: from 69-196-167-168.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.167.168]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 12 Aug 2011 10:08:15 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D4F67660CF; Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: 9280-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil Message-ID: References: <87pqkc1mtv.fsf@niu.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:08:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Daiki Ueno's message of "Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:13:04 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9280-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) >>> I disagree with this change of the default value of >>> epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent" >>> default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself >>> until recently). >> I tend to agree. > IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to > repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg. However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg) > is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe > to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil. I just changed it back to nil. Stefan From unknown Fri Sep 12 06:31:00 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator