GNU bug report logs - #9280
24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>,
	Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>
Subject: 24.0.50; default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:31:08 -0500

Recently I filed bug report #9112 saying that I could not create new
gpg-encrypted files anymore the way I was expecting it from emacs
23, namely with a key selection UI. I learned from Daiki that this
is due to a change of the default value of epa-file-select-keys from
nil to 'silent in Emacs 24, which means symmetric encryption is now
the default. This followed discussions mostly by Daiki, Ted, and Lars.

I disagree with this change of the default value of
epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent"
default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself
until recently). Part of the problem is that for symmetric
encryption gpg will simply pop up a pinentry window saying "enter
passphrase". But nothing tells the user that the file he or she
wants to save is just about to go through symmetric encryption (and
not any other encryption mechanism the user might hope for). Yet any
misunderstanding concerning the encryption mechanism could imply
that a file is essentially lost after saving.

We cannot change easily the brief behavior of the pinentry window.
So I request that the default of epa-file-select-keys should go back
to nil which provides a key selection UI so that the user gets some
ideas what the options are.

Ted, Lars, and also I myself, we can always customize things to make
the behavior more brief and geared towards our personal needs. But
making the brief behavior the default, assuming that the average
user understands all these things, in my opinion is asking for
trouble and confusion.



In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1)
 of 2011-07-16 on regnitz

Message #8 received at 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: "Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>,
	Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>, 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:18:01 -0400

> I disagree with this change of the default value of
> epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent"
> default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself
> until recently).

I tend to agree.

> Part of the problem is that for symmetric encryption gpg will simply
> pop up a pinentry window saying "enter passphrase". But nothing tells
> the user that the file he or she wants to save is just about to go
> through symmetric encryption (and not any other encryption mechanism
> the user might hope for).

The "enter passphrase" dialog should at the very least indicate what
kind of passphrase is expected (in this case a passphrase for symmetric
encryption).


        Stefan

Message #11 received at 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
	Roland Winkler <winkler <at> gnu.org>, 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:13:04 +0900

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I disagree with this change of the default value of
>> epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent"
>> default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself
>> until recently).
>
> I tend to agree.

IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to
repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg.  However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg)
is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe
to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Message #14 received at 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org>
To: Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>
Cc: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:05:29 -0500

On Fri Aug 12 2011 Daiki Ueno wrote:
> IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to
> repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg.  However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg)
> is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe
> to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil.

In a way, I am a bit surprised about the rationale for these changes.

- the default value of epa-file-select-keys was changed because of
  ~/.authinfo.gpg. But obviously this change affects many completely
  unrelated situations, too.

- Now the value of epa-file-select-keys is not a problem anymore
  because ~/.authinfo.gpg by default got renamed to ~/.authinfo,
  which is causing new problems, see #9113. 

It seems to me that here only symptoms are treated in a way that
cause all kinds of new problems. -- I do not fully understand what
motivated these changes in the first place. Yet it appears to me
that it might be necessary to seek a proper solution in a different
way.

Roland

Message #17 received at 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>
To: "Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:51:53 +0900

"Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org> writes:

> In a way, I am a bit surprised about the rationale for these changes.
>
> - the default value of epa-file-select-keys was changed because of
>   ~/.authinfo.gpg. But obviously this change affects many completely
>   unrelated situations, too.

Right.

> - Now the value of epa-file-select-keys is not a problem anymore
>   because ~/.authinfo.gpg by default got renamed to ~/.authinfo,
>   which is causing new problems, see #9113. 

I think Ted is working on making ~/.authinfo partially encrypted, though
it won't work with GnuPG2 and/or gpg-agent and calls gpg program many
times.

Maybe you could try: (setq auth-sources '("~/.emacs.d/auth.plist"))
*.plist file is handled by a different backend which I added recently,
that supports partial encryption without hassles.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Message #20 received at 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Roland Winkler" <winkler <at> gnu.org>
To: Daiki Ueno <ueno <at> unixuser.org>
Cc: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 9280 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:28:58 -0500

On Fri Aug 12 2011 Daiki Ueno wrote:
> Maybe you could try: (setq auth-sources '("~/.emacs.d/auth.plist"))
> *.plist file is handled by a different backend which I added recently,
> that supports partial encryption without hassles.

Thanks. Actually, I have already done something like this. -- I am
sure that for all these variables in the end I can find settings
that suit my taste / needs. Yet I want to note once more that I
submitted this bug report because I believe that default settings of
user variables should be the most reasonable for users who have not
yet browsed through the code to figure these things out for
themselves.

Roland

Message #25 received at 9280-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: 9280-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#9280: 24.0.50;
	default value of epa-file-select-keys should be nil
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:08:14 -0400

>>> I disagree with this change of the default value of
>>> epa-file-select-keys in the sense that I find the current "silent"
>>> default behavior too brief for unexperienced users (like myself
>>> until recently).
>> I tend to agree.
> IIRC, they supported the change because at that time Gnus needed to
> repeatedly decrypt ~/.authinfo.gpg.  However, now ~/.authinfo (not .gpg)
> is the default (yes, #9113 is another issue) and maybe it would be safe
> to change the default value of epa-file-select-keys back to nil.

I just changed it back to nil.


        Stefan

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