From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: larsi@gnus.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Xcc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.131100736029704 (code B ref -1); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:43:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2011 16:42:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqtz-0007j2-Gd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqtv-0007ip-5o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:35 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqtn-0001VU-KM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:29 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_DKIM_INVALID, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:46842) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqtn-0001VP-4t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqtl-0002bO-9k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:26 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqth-0001Un-Ng for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:24 -0400 Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:62043) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qiqth-0001UZ-AF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:42:21 -0400 Received: by iyb14 with SMTP id 14so2284295iyb.0 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:42:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:x-debbugs-cc:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; bh=B1Qq0KUfWeK+KG3FvMrfCVd7wevEWcKXvLp9mKbgXps=; b=wgQnoWvi4vLGiSdXGyC47wC+aW+O97rwpeEsFfwbz3ohFc0WP/4w/55RpnkekkQ84g pt11ZmCZb33a1hyLhEseg+012qEMAFG5bXZ4vk9AKt6ZNEjqBvR9a4TfCd0K5rcN8E7O 3/MqnWoGD0/Fg5+jYMyhS4CZZmxwfjZMyJQJE= Received: by 10.42.133.69 with SMTP id g5mr6503114ict.289.1311007339898; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.74]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13sm3021676ibi.43.2011.07.18.09.42.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:42:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:42:10 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Function message-unique-id seeds the RNG every time it runs and relies on its undocumented return value. Should something like this be applied? --- a/message.el +++ b/message.el @@ -5484,7 +5484,8 @@ ;; Don't use microseconds from (current-time), they may be unsupported. ;; Instead we use this randomly inited counter. (setq message-unique-id-char - (% (1+ (or message-unique-id-char (logand (random t) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) + (% (1+ (or message-unique-id-char + (logand (random most-positive-fixnum) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) ;; (current-time) returns 16-bit ints, ;; and 2^16*25 just fits into 4 digits i base 36. (* 25 25))) Diff finished. Tue Jul 19 00:34:45 2011 Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 19 10:57:55 2011 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 14:57:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBkA-0005T1-SB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:57:55 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBk8-0005Sm-Ah for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:57:53 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBjw-00063P-8a for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:57:40 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:57:39 +0200 Message-Id: To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #9118 X-MailScanner-ID: 1QjBjw-00063P-8a X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311692260.39814@xwR2OR6SrwgqEi7jRrxONg X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) tags 9118 wontfix close 9118 From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131108782524796 (code B ref 9118); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 15:03:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBpl-0006Rm-Hl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:03:45 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBpg-0006RU-Jr for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:03:40 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjBpR-0006D9-LU; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:03:21 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:42:10 +0800") Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:57:27 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAALVBMVEXXFh78+/e3AQX+/fzv fWniSUjqyryqAAD48Or+//31n4Tyt57////+//7v3tFwuiWvAAACD0lEQVQ4jZXTQYvTQBQA4CEY FDzqyQ1ScvEHiLBIlD2MlwjSQyKuJw9aiu3mUJCcRYVSSmERQaUWxOyCE1wQMUhGFkJAEpnk7KFe FEuwNb/ByWQzSZr14BAyyfvy3ptkCFAU8l3yyNHwlexsdFYzICkklPwzpDrSNJmB7CIqIi/YOZ4M 0wmoPuk742wKFpM1iK+v2Bx05rMavHzPIBh20/OA+CVsLPp5QmrUS3UWf7IppMfVGjh5Bnl68Upc hWA/XfF1VGFj3+gfC0v8j4xl0aMAb5IMJTphZ8EzAgqb9xFC2EiWGCc7FfjmWlCDCLnYdbsfKvAE wgxUhGzjsDMv4R60VAtC+/ARbb+USngMkYOdh9NsU770dkoYQbX7qrjFnypg3T4oWoYYj/MrD5DL UFPzyrRYz33DIYY6pC88Z+vp4RscAkuHn8k57XV2/xshpQB/ry2+jU+aD7LICFnjAsK7bfHWM9k0 +5vGcGTbHMjZNhB/DExTB0Cnn2bFIdYFIFNoAVFDCEoc/C0WN2WaYKOffFUk2hJoB3MgA03FjlIC oXCBQgtodrf4BhmE1wSZ1hoA8SAhVYiO4AR/vCj1kQIdp6J1+MWgtU3W4VIO7xrwlYFY7OqcQ8zg NGmAJ8gtAGqVcoiEluoY0yb4ws16NIuxjDv99TgF+l9NvUacZexKzbjig2aw7HHc2P1veP4X8esQ FQnOWRwAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Coil's _The Ape Of Naples_: "Cold Cell" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:9118@debbugs.gnu.org::+QkbXik5kgKLvgcL:000000000000000000000000000000000000000002e1I X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:sdl.web@gmail.com::L+Z/p6HTkzhouzJq:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000KdMU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QjBpR-0006D9-LU X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311692601.75909@xJvrGS4T3o83f5YYwTXCAQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Leo writes: > Function message-unique-id seeds the RNG every time it runs and relies > on its undocumented return value. Should something like this be applied? > > --- a/message.el > +++ b/message.el > @@ -5484,7 +5484,8 @@ > ;; Don't use microseconds from (current-time), they may be unsupported. > ;; Instead we use this randomly inited counter. > (setq message-unique-id-char > - (% (1+ (or message-unique-id-char (logand (random t) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) > + (% (1+ (or message-unique-id-char > + (logand (random most-positive-fixnum) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) Unfortunately, Emacs doesn't seed itself on startup, so (random x) will return the same thing every time you start Emacs. So I don't think changing this is appropriate at this time. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131108852127797 (code B ref 9118); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:16:01 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 15:15:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjC12-0007E2-NM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:15:21 -0400 Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjC10-00071f-A0 for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:15:19 -0400 Received: by iwn39 with SMTP id 39so3927149iwn.3 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:15:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=cshim+8guAL/7Puz8lMO0DvXN5BAkeul0y7vXe9RiZ4=; b=sc/chYWNVdUHdhMnMtuzn/UWniF/4f8wqxgpgyhO3/I98SR1jZCXcWuTahA5P7eLej 9w1wBjaKDEAk0WmiiOhL8MQiA7rzWTyBS6ji6SXpiEL1aSxPJoGGOw9hkVRsf/yEYOH1 Xg2sdM5bqtUiHEuuwBT8Icp52KOp/4DGwVoaI= Received: by 10.231.63.70 with SMTP id a6mr7272738ibi.20.1311088512476; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.72]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f13sm2881352ibe.10.2011.07.19.08.15.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:14:54 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:57:27 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) On 2011-07-19 22:57 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Unfortunately, Emacs doesn't seed itself on startup, so (random x) will > return the same thing every time you start Emacs. > > So I don't think changing this is appropriate at this time. But you can arrange to seed it once when that file is loaded. No need to seed it every time. BTW, (random t) produces no random numbers. (loop repeat 5 collect (random t)) => (2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116) Leo From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131108926030216 (code B ref 9118); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:28:01 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 15:27:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCCu-0007rG-AZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:27:40 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCCp-0007r1-C1 for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:27:35 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCCd-0006wh-JU; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:27:19 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:14:54 +0800") Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:24:36 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAD1BMVEWWZkgJAwZXMSovDxND IR+MARxHAAACR0lEQVQ4jWXUi3HsIAwFUIV1ASvjAkBQgEEuwEb0X9O74P0k85jJTDYnSEKIJSks Yrl31aOJBLqXUmaWliL/XU+lhb3UdP0PD96kxUuNuSGES6yqHyhXI9MB5FS7FQCiN+EolPsxMrvj 6H3AHTMJuWwTer8hlxucy20dsVB5v55GHQcpAHEiOqB3mSDBXcV+Qe6SCwBRJcUb6oDHgHVCPix1 cV1mvY+GUBOwuyTfs9ZZ1vKCA7+LzvOK7RkU3AzFkDChOleXnRLaMoG3Cf5wKBD52wg9gUOIibnG jZw73Unyhq2lxFvidREREtd6WROxbzkn49N4n0BzB+BJSzLzdPkzN1d3FPwGMrNniOxSkPME4BwA tNSSrZSYcsinuDcgOaDSY8sLSQvo/528hTNFqyFu4kJu9IHRN4BcK/qcUVXI9gEFlArAwDm3fMH3 ZiwFh0ZNknXAPvrurV04ukwIYn/A8+YoIPk5upvoHFAwMSgb96tCbdxHHoDedGZlNnlwDcjE2NFx p8VjcruiCdH7E5lGqKObFowxt847Yd/p8DQAGA4xPfAYEtcfr4YbfPAaMT1VUsEOzGNgRdsI/RyA eVmyjQH2zptlxdDw+kMIVMxw5403RNLMQSf00vHOjCtxLd5rL7svA+bzQLm785FHfeWJf3wD21Nc jZ7HOdefX3AxJuHy8xEdgO0LAQ/7Xt61+AGki58vgXyW9Qt8xxkLudbHF0YQHY9//LzA2F5/P95f MzfMZ/NZXa2wf+3AubDDH8Vz1Q2f9B/sCoS0y8jVBQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Coil's _Astral Disaster_: "The Mothership & the Fatherland" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:9118@debbugs.gnu.org::3MPskGCBa9gb5M/y:000000000000000000000000000000000000000003y7B X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:sdl.web@gmail.com::BuJXjvCr+QXHdA6x:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000BCLG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QjCCd-0006wh-JU X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311694040.22994@AgSCGAouZq3+daSjhicieQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Leo writes: > But you can arrange to seed it once when that file is loaded. No need to > seed it every time. Calling it once every time you send an email isn't really heavy usage of the re-seeding. > BTW, (random t) produces no random numbers. > > (loop repeat 5 collect (random t)) > > => > > (2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116 > 2265815277832325116 2265815277832325116) Oops. :-) Fixed now. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.13110902932461 (code B ref 9118); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 15:44:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCTd-0000dd-Bx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:44:53 -0400 Received: from mail-iy0-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCTb-0000dP-FZ for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:44:52 -0400 Received: by iye7 with SMTP id 7so3964734iye.3 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=bVm7Vtvz0Fyy64LFm7kR6cjbSA3NkZvv2e6Fe+EeNN8=; b=V6YgNoc+/uEAz3MLw0NOqmt9g2z5s/kZJadF2oNSeKaUdyoU5Q0by4xKA6n4ZMFRVq mqdVIwgjxIHVfQdskc0YAYwWuOxQ11XNJ/M30pFxj5UnuNgjMbJ57XierFCVjpvoB1AT /QbFywJRGyzm8tMsHxUVBXzA0u9WiGkvayeFg= Received: by 10.231.29.100 with SMTP id p36mr1352313ibc.123.1311090285556; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.72]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13sm3694959ibi.26.2011.07.19.08.44.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:44:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:44:30 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:24:36 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) On 2011-07-19 23:24 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: >> But you can arrange to seed it once when that file is loaded. No need to >> seed it every time. > > Calling it once every time you send an email isn't really heavy usage of > the re-seeding. But every seeding interrupts the internal random state (which is out of our control at the moment) and break the users' train of random numbers. Also if you grep (random t) in the lisp/, you can see there is some effort in making a package only change the random state at most once. Leo From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.13110905782903 (code B ref 9118); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2011 15:49:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCYD-0000kl-M8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:49:38 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCYB-0000kX-HX for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:49:36 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjCXz-0002oq-Nn; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:49:23 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:44:30 +0800") Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:49:19 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAD1BMVEWWZkgJAwZXMSovDxND IR+MARxHAAACR0lEQVQ4jWXUi3HsIAwFUIV1ASvjAkBQgEEuwEb0X9O74P0k85jJTDYnSEKIJSks Yrl31aOJBLqXUmaWliL/XU+lhb3UdP0PD96kxUuNuSGES6yqHyhXI9MB5FS7FQCiN+EolPsxMrvj 6H3AHTMJuWwTer8hlxucy20dsVB5v55GHQcpAHEiOqB3mSDBXcV+Qe6SCwBRJcUb6oDHgHVCPix1 cV1mvY+GUBOwuyTfs9ZZ1vKCA7+LzvOK7RkU3AzFkDChOleXnRLaMoG3Cf5wKBD52wg9gUOIibnG jZw73Unyhq2lxFvidREREtd6WROxbzkn49N4n0BzB+BJSzLzdPkzN1d3FPwGMrNniOxSkPME4BwA tNSSrZSYcsinuDcgOaDSY8sLSQvo/528hTNFqyFu4kJu9IHRN4BcK/qcUVXI9gEFlArAwDm3fMH3 ZiwFh0ZNknXAPvrurV04ukwIYn/A8+YoIPk5upvoHFAwMSgb96tCbdxHHoDedGZlNnlwDcjE2NFx p8VjcruiCdH7E5lGqKObFowxt847Yd/p8DQAGA4xPfAYEtcfr4YbfPAaMT1VUsEOzGNgRdsI/RyA eVmyjQH2zptlxdDw+kMIVMxw5403RNLMQSf00vHOjCtxLd5rL7svA+bzQLm785FHfeWJf3wD21Nc jZ7HOdefX3AxJuHy8xEdgO0LAQ/7Xt61+AGki58vgXyW9Qt8xxkLudbHF0YQHY9//LzA2F5/P95f MzfMZ/NZXa2wf+3AubDDH8Vz1Q2f9B/sCoS0y8jVBQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Coil's _Astral Disaster_: "2nd. Sun Syndrome" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:9118@debbugs.gnu.org::U7kg1qPIL8xRNCYt:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000WhEg X-Hashcash: 1:23:110719:sdl.web@gmail.com::g6xUbqtGoDUiT5xn:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000dRP3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QjCXz-0002oq-Nn X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311695363.94204@kpZCUmdL2rogf1uo/cq6yQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Leo writes: > But every seeding interrupts the internal random state (which is out of > our control at the moment) and break the users' train of random numbers. > > Also if you grep (random t) in the lisp/, you can see there is some > effort in making a package only change the random state at most once. Once per package? That means that it's called many times in a single Emacs session, so I don't really see the problem. This should really be fixed by Emacs calling `(random t)' at startup. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:13:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131112795415103 (code B ref 9118); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:13:01 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jul 2011 02:12:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjMH3-0003vY-8z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:12:33 -0400 Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjMH1-0003vL-83 for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:12:32 -0400 Received: by iwn39 with SMTP id 39so4330766iwn.3 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:12:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WaPhywoVvttHOeCUhCrzJ6dlVaRAeKLj97dfM7HjMk4=; b=Hn5ue9eVjOtgRVhJUojgS0DURcn98wqxzC72kuyldHd6cBtLoWHvL+rJcpq8ehKbuD asjLFBeXsXGJqgFpaSoyEM2jhwIPqDGCvEH7xky//mtn2rgT6mMw/9yRLqgqI99CJBvC 0Luy8r3l8N56swNfeaWjEXwA94q1R4NAq+BQk= Received: by 10.231.119.67 with SMTP id y3mr7306567ibq.155.1311127945494; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.73]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q4sm3979548ibb.49.2011.07.19.19.12.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:12:12 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:49:19 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) On 2011-07-19 23:49 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Once per package? That means that it's called many times in a single > Emacs session, so I don't really see the problem. Only at the time of loading a package and only a package or two in the following do I use. After loading the packages, they won't change the rng any more. But calling (random t) every time a function is called just gets in the way, that means I am no longer getting a uniform distribution from the RNG. Also (random t) is much more predictable. ,---- | ChangeLog.6:6494: (life): Do (random t) only once and only when `life' is called. | allout-widgets.el:1351:;; (random t) | calc/calc-comb.el:575: (random t) | gnus/message.el:4788: (format "%x%x%x" (random) (random t) (random)) | gnus/message.el:5494: (% (1+ (or message-unique-id-char (logand (random t) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) | net/sasl.el:186: (% (1+ (or sasl-unique-id-char (logand (random t) (1- (lsh 1 20))))) | org/org-id.el:322: (random t) | play/5x5.el:957:(random t) | play/animate.el:204:(random t) | play/blackbox.el:260: (random t) | play/cookie1.el:57:(random t) | Binary file play/cookie1.elc matches | play/dissociate.el:97:(random t) | play/doctor.el:1620:(random t) | play/dunnet.el:3013:(random t) | play/gomoku.el:1200:(random t) | play/landmark.el:1686:(random t) | play/life.el:125: (random t)) | play/mpuz.el:38:(random t) ; randomize | play/tetris.el:639:(random t) | play/zone.el:683:(random t) | server.el:97: (when val (random t)) | type-break.el:584: (random t) `---- > This should really be fixed by Emacs calling `(random t)' at startup. That should leave for the user to do. Common Lisp also does no seeding at start up. Leo From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:30:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131119374923500 (code B ref 9118); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:30:03 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jul 2011 20:29:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjdOD-00066w-IR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:29:09 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjdO8-00066P-6N for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:29:04 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjdNs-0007D1-IN; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:28:44 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:12:12 +0800") Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:28:02 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEUAAAAyNUuSmKsBAAIR ESLe4usEAwtlaHfXbPnDAAACeUlEQVQ4jU1TTY+kIBBlQzJ3HFbPuuNwdUKHOdNW6HObdr3qQNjr 4vaEv78F2h+vo9DvFfWJhFJJKFFSdoR0naSdlBQ3FElERzvbbVuCWnrjs4s0G2SzXbjt8R/bNx0K aNRlgX7ywO42lDywfHywF0oejgnFVPDcj2s+sWEPnoJ2BwC4szkAxpnx/RCe0KHRwTmQTxzdz+Vy uhtJ7yKh0vuZzE/muxX1CDnvldBtTT1U4KWzd19Zkspb6Y0rnbG5zQnO+sR678yxdga97QJykBUH x+DAodnuzWJdKS6A5mDAwXxLBp7hnNuF7q5ofDCGs7dJHhjfBIYb46WUeZTUawdsBzegbglT9eCT YqlM10FicWp5CAws3h01J4FQB1W8oUTG5l7PRHnQTSOahLW0Ms0mt105xosmNuOAAjbhfq8WWLgO oR0RAXtl97G/MI6/Mn4jP5TYnX4X3MIiSlUSzqlp8zYPBTpimkX2dE412U3QMYoYm8yPE6uitjKn uw4ijs24I44TQAUee/VzEMWwJlKsKcwUqjWyHk+05+O5SBlxHZOe6uTXnlTtVFxzqsJ+pbWuGsFO lrBxOlXjmk50y7Ed2/Nn8x7fenLEVAqRfNVWmWKcRhjep9WS72bAMnL0YBwaxPeVx9NfEteBVRtf G6fbcai++NlZFMSKZbTf7SVw0OupvThzcT2JbcSqRRNF68FgxoJZefEGheRn0m+i/udMFce1luTD lNiSJo0oYCuvjodCBC1eX0CRNM/ky2hYPA+fa/s7lMp70jZiTX0QxkNvT39iW+JKXDqBSQ01B/wQ VDhdj78qqqwn4zaJIQaGV1drfnjlEnr1H6eZ2AiZu0baAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Coil's _Musick to Play in the Dark (Vol 1)_: "The Dreamer is Still Asleep" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110720:sdl.web@gmail.com::2EsKY9i0RcfkwezN:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000E9FG X-Hashcash: 1:23:110720:9118@debbugs.gnu.org::jCg4istTqH16WEfp:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000PKDg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QjdNs-0007D1-IN X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311798524.6397@AzOG0kuMI9zVa+1ijNPGtw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Leo writes: > That should leave for the user to do. Common Lisp also does no seeding > at start up. LispWorks seeds at start-up. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131122355114144 (code B ref 9118); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2011 04:45:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjl8w-0003g4-PX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:45:51 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjl8t-0003fp-8X for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:45:47 -0400 Received: by pvh18 with SMTP id 18so821440pvh.3 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:45:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=TR+buml22ff6DA5UhmRrYimgweuCLxBc9QM6h/JBjbA=; b=YUOAyfgKigqNr/EWUVXeRN6e6500Nl5TUgGdDuwTeYhWXKp7D87Wf7DegCmGPpJX1n nBE3JSJnO29G0sJn4Fk7uK2rrrXDC8AvijODQ95XKlRwo2gA2kd5Kfw9MnB3PtbS3OR/ 3feH3WcpfTpSDq/leDHAIsvRaxdeY4ra4XFdM= Received: by 10.68.43.168 with SMTP id x8mr2350202pbl.228.1311223541445; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([123.114.34.89]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u6sm583739pbh.80.2011.07.20.21.45.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:45:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:45:31 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:28:02 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) On 2011-07-21 04:28 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: >> That should leave for the user to do. Common Lisp also does no seeding >> at start up. > > LispWorks seeds at start-up. Indeed, some do some don't. I wonder if Emacs should? It will be just one line change. Leo From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131124953522565 (code B ref 9118); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2011 11:58:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjru2-0005ru-2I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 07:58:54 -0400 Received: from mail-pv0-f172.google.com ([74.125.83.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjrtk-0005rT-RG for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 07:58:53 -0400 Received: by pvh18 with SMTP id 18so1121829pvh.3 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:58:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L/BC0eic+j6/cwe6Su7JSC6OzPYqyIUpRk/bfcIXYys=; b=s2Tfw3Vw52st/+41Rph7xtxRMjRWDQtjLD86+pDubHnotFiC6WaNO71+R4GTY+acDn O1UjW0ZgZ7uyvgBgGFQjgDgTJWlUZ42AglJTgI+g7PghU02QdGQZWkaVJMLkevDJCOUG p6SUTU1eDdZDmOhSq6TfD8qCU0shUtpGpRz5k= Received: by 10.142.166.19 with SMTP id o19mr57440wfe.410.1311249511062; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:58:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.12.14 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 04:57:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 13:57:51 +0200 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 06:45, Leo wrote: > Indeed, some do some don't. I wonder if Emacs should? Many systems (languages, etc.) have a facility to seed the RNG with a specific seed (saved from a previous run, for example), so you can have repeated runs with the exact same sequence of random numbers, if needed. That can be useful for simulation, testing, etc. AFAIK, the Emacs RNG does not allow that at the lisp level, so it would be better to automatically seed it and remove the many (random t) calls, which, as has been pointed out, can in fact be harmful for the quality of the generated random number series, if called repeatedly. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:00:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Juanma Barranquero Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131126395611003 (code B ref 9118); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:00:04 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Jul 2011 15:59:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjved-0002rQ-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:59:16 -0400 Received: from mail-pz0-f53.google.com ([209.85.210.53]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qjveb-0002rD-Ry for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:59:14 -0400 Received: by pzk6 with SMTP id 6so2052407pzk.12 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=x86gFG0gNfSoOhOp4hkv+py9xBDv1zNzOXxqOHeIl2Y=; b=AnOSpnIqJEUtz1C/387XnX1p1raKXaxrrE1vW90V7MTU1qiQ0Kbl+yqURg2QLA87r+ MKtMEdojoiC0y2reVPSacT2gvAG2PjYwaLrPD739Wa1CgNX0pjF1xjGbta3NEIaWuX7P y6DIDJFXAzAUzNYRLIznWNZzmC4xCYT+HKi3g= Received: by 10.142.246.10 with SMTP id t10mr192696wfh.213.1311263948097; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.70]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k8sm933833pbk.15.2011.07.21.08.58.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:59:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:58:46 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2011 13:57:51 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) On 2011-07-21 19:57 +0800, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > Many systems (languages, etc.) have a facility to seed the RNG with a > specific seed (saved from a previous run, for example), so you can > have repeated runs with the exact same sequence of random numbers, if > needed. That can be useful for simulation, testing, etc. > > AFAIK, the Emacs RNG does not allow that at the lisp level, so it > would be better to automatically seed it and remove the many (random > t) calls, which, as has been pointed out, can in fact be harmful for > the quality of the generated random number series, if called > repeatedly. I agree completely. How about something along these lines? (note: before this patch (random 1.0) is equivalent to (random most-positive-fixnum)). === modified file 'src/fns.c' --- src/fns.c 2011-07-05 02:51:15 +0000 +++ src/fns.c 2011-07-21 15:47:30 +0000 @@ -69,15 +69,15 @@ } DEFUN ("random", Frandom, Srandom, 0, 1, 0, - doc: /* Return a pseudo-random number. + doc: /* Return a non-negative pseudo-random number less than LIMIT. All integers representable in Lisp are equally likely. On most systems, this is 29 bits' worth. -With positive integer LIMIT, return random number in interval [0,LIMIT). -With argument t, set the random number seed from the current time and pid. -Other values of LIMIT are ignored. */) +Optional argument LIMIT defaults to `most-positive-fixnum'. +With argument t, set the random number seed from the current time + and pid and return nil. */) (Lisp_Object limit) { - EMACS_INT val; + EMACS_INT val, denominator; Lisp_Object lispy_val; if (EQ (limit, Qt)) @@ -85,24 +85,28 @@ EMACS_TIME t; EMACS_GET_TIME (t); seed_random (getpid () ^ EMACS_SECS (t) ^ EMACS_USECS (t)); + return Qnil; } - if (NATNUMP (limit) && XFASTINT (limit) != 0) - { - /* Try to take our random number from the higher bits of VAL, - not the lower, since (says Gentzel) the low bits of `random' - are less random than the higher ones. We do this by using the - quotient rather than the remainder. At the high end of the RNG - it's possible to get a quotient larger than n; discarding - these values eliminates the bias that would otherwise appear - when using a large n. */ - EMACS_INT denominator = (INTMASK + 1) / XFASTINT (limit); - do - val = get_random () / denominator; - while (val >= XFASTINT (limit)); - } - else - val = get_random (); + if (NILP (limit)) + XSETINT (limit, MOST_POSITIVE_FIXNUM); + + CHECK_NATNUM (limit); + + if (XFASTINT (limit) == 0) + xsignal1 (Qargs_out_of_range, limit); + + /* Try to take our random number from the higher bits of VAL, + not the lower, since (says Gentzel) the low bits of `random' + are less random than the higher ones. We do this by using the + quotient rather than the remainder. At the high end of the RNG + it's possible to get a quotient larger than n; discarding + these values eliminates the bias that would otherwise appear + when using a large n. */ + denominator = (INTMASK + 1) / XFASTINT (limit); + do + val = get_random () / denominator; + while (val >= XFASTINT (limit)); XSETINT (lispy_val, val); return lispy_val; } @@ -5009,4 +5013,5 @@ void init_fns (void) { + Frandom (Qt); } From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Leo Cc: Juanma Barranquero , 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131212705814929 (code B ref 9118); Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jul 2011 15:44:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYBP-0003sM-Ia for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:44:18 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYBN-0003rq-1u for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:44:01 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYAz-0005su-Bx; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:43:37 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:58:46 +0800") Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:39:22 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAFVBMVEUUDw0HAwQrIx1WTkca FRIPCgkhGxdxXMSiAAACVUlEQVQ4jZWUTXOcMAyGRWNzXmbinIlNuIedyVmlwmc7XXEmxPH//wmV YUk6SXOoZnfWqwe9+rAN5ERivs85l2+2OSfvc4ZEqAGAqHjFlwkVgXysLQ+mnJKijZI45TkBn61A qv8GCfz7un8Haexiw+tXkNeHpmn8+gXYdeJoEMsSfQGDXUbbS229ZgES0gH4Dtxg+9pmlNZ6bYjV atuK8wTD8PR689ret6N1D1VLg7UvrHwC2y+1XduJz9Y9dV1XEovcChbTKgmWIHq9aG/unKXBThY9 Ms9tnxDd+Xy2C6Vr54tXMNIoI1tLgYDHrHrvU4d1sjJFVozBX8FSbxsi4v0LaAOoPJQZ9PoyHgN4 C28nBZOCZc1Z8/yjZC2Ju4UvuCSQvSLMIN3ZDQyetFYLoewV4QR5dnvIICpqCinAKgW+XR7unB02 wPF2Qh1myJ6y9vHOLb82EHj2sQEEXw6Cbu7cxe5SRNw0Fw2Uac1VM7vfe44ag3SiGTyiytLHkVyj 4RBETI6RSrWA87UqLToswOsalNL1AVDHMHFlAE6qkrPn3d7hkE1lpJoAgPMSkP2RYxL9muIJOIwL yzY5vwMOlQnMABFCZB1qd7lGSAsc9AmC4uYUJEewRWxQ4jfmp4QohUHF0T0/Pe+zAlGWcsF7mVkj EecCrDYcoxQLfs40Ma+Ob7aIyNWJpGeQ61Osdra9KREtB8ktUs1ut0fnj/LHyPcdHIfh8eqAuP3E 035pie4P0Hxjn4D5BpjwAUqbhq8mwz6WH5dze5Nsl78cNfjHm2G3/wd/ALe+2BSyXnwTAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Throwing Muses's _Chains Changed_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QnYAz-0005su-Bx X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1312731817.44633@/D2wRYmThA3p9ktMy75fXw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Leo writes: > +With argument t, set the random number seed from the current time > + and pid and return nil. */) This would break old (buggy) usages, so it seems unnecessary. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:51:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#9118: 23.3.50; Don't seed the RNG in message-unique-id Resent-From: Leo Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bugs@gnus.org Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9118 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,gnus X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: Juanma Barranquero , 9118@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 9118-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9118.131212817419718 (code B ref 9118); Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 9118) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jul 2011 16:02:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYTd-00057y-Kg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:02:53 -0400 Received: from mail-pz0-f53.google.com ([209.85.210.53]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnYTa-00057k-R4 for 9118@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:02:52 -0400 Received: by pzk6 with SMTP id 6so9072916pzk.12 for <9118@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:02:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=gxMqqU5ostGNo2fjEABJm8yobVRsPSaa4Pq7TkE8Ous=; b=kb5toFXaovaeEFvXj3O5u0iyl1hGT3EPRiBsCSuiUm1XBIXK5afnsuQcCToO4rXxEW CPCoXnvyoUro2TWNhcz1sMAuzW4arTiSiD48IX3BzEhjr4I1m/NuZklurocpHemyLOYp XSPZNVksxhIEqKa6a6Ma6k+7vQ/OCghPt1UuA= Received: by 10.68.47.9 with SMTP id z9mr4115419pbm.140.1312128152732; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([114.247.10.71]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b4sm4485265pba.91.2011.07.31.09.02.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 31 Jul 2011 09:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo References: Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 00:02:23 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:39:22 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3.50 (Mac OS X 10.6.8) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) On 2011-07-31 23:39 +0800, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Leo writes: > >> +With argument t, set the random number seed from the current time >> + and pid and return nil. */) > > This would break old (buggy) usages, so it seems unnecessary. The fix is straightforward. It is worth the small trouble. I can take care of fixing all the handful of occurrences in Emacs source. Leo