From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:40:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13013303705232 (code B ref -1); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:40:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Mar 2011 16:39:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FTV-0001ML-K8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:39:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FTS-0001M8-Hp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:39:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FTM-0006tg-PF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:39:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:44195) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FTI-0006Oq-7e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:39:20 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47733 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Q4FFI-0007Jj-Op for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:24:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FF5-0004S3-5E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:24:36 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:60017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4FF4-0004Rv-Sg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:24:35 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2SGOWJS018045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:24:33 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2SGOUQN025435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:24:31 GMT Received: from abhmt005.oracle.com (abhmt005.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p2SGOUJ2013668 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:24:30 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:24:29 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:24:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Thread-Index: AcvtZJw+loPwqv5lRXS+BhFivp0bJg== X-Source-IP: acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4D90B63F.00C2,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 199.232.76.165 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) I think it is a mistake to treat "temporary buffer" macros and functions as if they necessarily dealt with particular buffers such as *Help* and *Completions* or with particular modes such as `help-mode' and `completion-list-mode'. Based on their names and descriptions (doc), things such as `with-output-to-temp-buffer' should simply set up a temporary buffer, with no special treatment for it being a "help" buffer or a "completions" buffer etc. Why, for example, should `with-output-to-temp-buffer' always imply calling `help-mode-*' in that buffer? Based on the name, a "temporary buffer" is not necessarily a help buffer. And based on its doc, `with-output-to-temp-buffer', for example, is not about a help buffer. There is NOTHING in its doc that gives the slightest suggestion that the temporary buffer is a help buffer, is in `help-mode', etc. Nada. Please take a moment to read the doc string. But in help.el we do this, at top level: ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) Yes, I know that this has been the case for a long time. But I also know that the effect has resulted in confusion for at least some users. You can say that the problem is just the name. In that case, the doc should help to correct the false impression by stating explicitly that a "temp" buffer is really a "help" buffer, in `help-mode' (by default). Better, however, would be to rename *-temp-* to *-help-* whenever "temp" really implies "help". And after renaming functions/macros that way, I think it would be good to have real temporary-buffer facilities - a real `with-output-to-temp-buffer' (but we would need to pick a new name, to avoid confusion), one that does not imply using `help-mode' etc. In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-03-21 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.5) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.131067162323770 (code B ref 8368); Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jul 2011 19:27:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhRYo-0006B0-Uw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:27:02 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QhRYj-0006Al-4b for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:26:57 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhRYX-0007Vs-QY; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:26:41 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:24:28 -0700") Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:26:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Don Juan's Reckless Daughter_: "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110714:drew.adams@oracle.com::DkKXR5fTL7MFIl8S:0000000000000000000000000000000000000000hTtZ X-Hashcash: 1:23:110714:8368@debbugs.gnu.org::xDbCje8D1H3Jmfbl:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000j+ac MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1QhRYX-0007Vs-QY X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311276402.01327@2uE111Zy6uf0NqXj+PW93w X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > And based on its doc, `with-output-to-temp-buffer', for example, is not > about a help buffer. There is NOTHING in its doc that gives the > slightest suggestion that the temporary buffer is a help buffer, is in > `help-mode', etc. Nada. Please take a moment to read the doc string. > > But in help.el we do this, at top level: > > ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) That's pretty odd. Digging through the ChangeLogs, this is apparently the commit that added them, but it doesn't say why. 1999-01-11 Richard Stallman * help.el (help-mode-finish): Renamed from help-mode-maybe. Don't switch to Help mode here. (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-finish. (help-mode-setup): New function. (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-setup. Richard, why is `help-mode-setup' run in absolutely all `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers? This seems rather un-optimal, since that macro is used for many other things than showing help buffers. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 03:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.131571317515381 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 03:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 03:52:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2b6E-000401-MV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:52:55 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2b6C-0003zt-Du for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:52:53 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2b1x-0000Cd-KV; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:48:29 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:26:01 +0200") Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:45:21 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Now-Playing: Various's _Belgian Pop & Wave Songs From the 1980s_: "Vitor Hublot - Aller Simple" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1R2b1x-0000Cd-KV X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1316317710.25314@7rWjkFrQGzlkwxHFVVlgLw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > Digging through the ChangeLogs, this is apparently the commit that > added them, but it doesn't say why. > > 1999-01-11 Richard Stallman > > * help.el (help-mode-finish): Renamed from help-mode-maybe. > Don't switch to Help mode here. > (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-finish. > (help-mode-setup): New function. > (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-setup. > > Richard, why is `help-mode-setup' run in absolutely all > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers? This seems rather un-optimal, > since that macro is used for many other things than showing help > buffers. There's been no response in two months. I think the following is a bug: ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) Would removing these be a good idea? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:03:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13157173612999 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:03:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 05:02:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2cBk-0000mK-Nv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:02:40 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2cBi-0000mA-Lf for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:02:38 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AosJANs+bE5FxK3+/2dsb2JhbABBmHiIY4Y9eYFSAQEEAVYeBQULCzQSFBgNJIgKtAmGbgSgMoRD X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,363,1312171200"; d="scan'208";a="135624069" Received: from 69-196-173-254.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.173.254]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 11 Sep 2011 00:58:24 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 62CD6663AA; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:58:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:45:21 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > I think the following is a bug: > ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > Would removing these be a good idea? Not at this stage of the development, no. Stefan From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13157176723621 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 05:07:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2cGl-0000wL-9a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:07:51 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2cGj-0000wE-FA for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:07:50 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2cCX-00025I-CA; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 07:03:29 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:58:24 -0400") Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 07:00:27 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEV3fns0NjYDAwkNDhUa GyEGBw2B19BHAAACUUlEQVQ4jVVUS5biMAyUX/fs40c4wBi8b5C9J1h9AKzo/lfpkg1MjxfEUelT KolQFCml8Y0o4hBRWGg8V2lFhN2ywcnPBowIF95lI0fcysxlvElhrvzlV49mP4Xok4SrMi8DCNPu r5Gk4nKheQ7MxqUp1ws1M5bbE6CjsoJLtQc1ZJKXnQLXziIWd/K0XnpWoQ/zCA5lpFro32kM4AJA kPSXnQJSo5EG4M3pFWLIfUCDbfudyomBLBpsJcZfSMjGkDRAq22q+jx/wF7ckSX+B1SwGrmZHXjn Ch4wHEEKwPYCDsXHI1N2FFlfIXNUA2htX98hn57HgUArVxv1wxyV31eZgzLbngRC2eISJgAFzEqc nI+o59si9AEAEVxmSNfZ1uoA7KZ5JIs17x6DiUdX11K2s9sP6jMfEi2I8Fx11P9OJx4TvE2AFZ7I fTDLvku+WAvNVRK4YXmSKiriHUs6dnJqj4WpNaVueqEbMUK2yQk+9dpThq7hiziu63aLwSVqigBT X7cFsmPoyCTeaU8J1KuWm8+D61xxb6gny6lni2H8P6Ri7dB/RQEzj4Io7my5ewrnlHvO+AkPqr2V a66WL8YondJJQQCbVdNhvf89yrk89nK/n+/tez/bHqnmpK7irls+6fF0hXLKmDTCJ8+sKaOCdV9F bBaIgGN3I0DcbMgo5D2BfkbF5FX7CfNk9D6YvI6n0lpi2xfQnSabT2OFou2B4jZN3nrHoIpvHFdo hbFazs6RFRN3ieCzDEmqea4hl4yvhh4X/360wopZK79PXcIP1WO6X4JQUmcAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: The Wolfgang Press's _Water_: "Fire-Eater" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1R2cCX-00025I-CA X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1316322209.65901@4uND3j6xacKnpvV8dhXB4w X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Stefan Monnier writes: >> I think the following is a bug: > >> ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. >> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) >> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > >> Would removing these be a good idea? > > Not at this stage of the development, no. No, I was thinking after Emacs 24.1... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:46:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13157667451292 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:46:05 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 18:45:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2p2G-0000KP-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:45:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2p1z-0000Hr-3P for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:45:32 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R2oxp-0000SH-FG; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:41:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:41:09 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:45:21 +0200) References: X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) > Richard, why is `help-mode-setup' run in absolutely all > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers? This seems rather un-optimal, > since that macro is used for many other things than showing help > buffers. I think they were initially set up in Fundamental mode. Then, once Help mode existed, it was the right thing for most of these buffers, so it was useful to put them in Help mode. But there was no way to make that optional without changing all the callers. There are other ways to handle this, but just deleting that code would have bad results: most of these buffers would end up in Fundamental mode. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13157673974127 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 18:56:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2pCn-00014W-3M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:56:37 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2pCk-00014O-UK for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:56:35 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=stories.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1R2p8V-0005pe-Bh; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:52:11 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:41:09 -0400") Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:48:32 +0200 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEVQRGImGTHLzOX49/10 bYybmbeIp1R+AAACPklEQVQ4jW2SQZKjMAxF5S6xt6vIBUx8Aajs5ZS8pxnp/leZL+juSXUmgTj4 WfpfQrT9+qysFcsn/QYPH4H1Dax3/YNlf49ougD7e8SDodH6G9jqaMu2nmBdXiMOOvB7abyAteqE pckZUV9As1H/B2pT4m27zwHqC2iuclu2Zr8jmjvl52p0guOfs2raP7a75O+Ir6i1iQA8dj41jh8A Ce/Pral8i6/1zPUYg/q8teEXQA/Qhy0WU+Gl6f4T4eef5iZUjiaJQuLsM4579eFSyvOwcoL6Bczd XFL52DPA2iJ98z9bdZTnTDL2gjpWxx42l7W6H74Ll8lMT3BERMX+sIHKy5gSAJ7hCBROdfc996JU Cq0VkktEOAApUYcAFWptGPLDDhoOYaaE4w5X4eRYUcAFPhl5Jg2gw48HAnyI8ugJERoacXZB2FAV AUNADnFMntsBXVwgnwMtKSHTmmr40aFDiLuF+AVMza8AIpolTankFMCvVAqjSVTysDJ3AMg60kGA Ek0qqqlwYvKx4zaRqDpPdFgqibITXgC7AhAJZf1o2m93Rl4zBlCWECGrNnvUjq4oR36OO7G2nlF2 gNNohFKI31SwlXIAp3GVgOryPEsZllA9wRD8oBmMb8LZLCExkXs4hSDkhWZUXeI6CE7Zx51kwvum OCwFJVZowovtp6+Ywpx06pmdYBpb0VjGFGI084Ta506EoYspIHn66S4r3cIupcw28LYx4MRzVsZ8 RoEYFdiV6I1hFjIz8nIufwEjmdFkmASPbwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Nadja's _Radiance of Shadows_: "now i am become death the destroyer of worlds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1R2p8V-0005pe-Bh X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1316371931.69852@EOWkhN1T10na1KCPmWsuEg X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Richard Stallman writes: > I think they were initially set up in Fundamental mode. > Then, once Help mode existed, it was the right thing for most of these > buffers, so it was useful to put them in Help mode. But there was > no way to make that optional without changing all the callers. > > There are other ways to handle this, but just deleting that code would > have bad results: most of these buffers would end up in Fundamental > mode. If `help-mode' is the correct mode for these buffers, then I think `with-output-to-temp-buffer' should be documented to put the buffer in help mode, and it should be done explicitly in the code -- not by having help.el alter `temp-buffer-setup-hook' when help.el is loaded. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:29:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" , Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.131576931612709 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:29:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2011 19:28:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2phj-0003Iw-Eq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:28:36 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2phh-0003Ip-LI for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:28:34 -0400 Received: from rtcsinet22.oracle.com (rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id p8BJODXJ023965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:24:15 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by rtcsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p8BJOBPB014743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:24:12 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p8BJO6mH011092; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:24:06 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.62.110) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:24:05 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:24:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acxws/KwfqndIOD7Qou/+wABaUS3nAAA9W0A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 X-Source-IP: rtcsinet22.oracle.com [66.248.204.30] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4E6D0ADF.00AF,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > If `help-mode' is the correct mode for these buffers, then I think > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' should be documented to put the buffer in > help mode, and it should be done explicitly in the code -- > not by having help.el alter `temp-buffer-setup-hook' when help.el > is loaded. See the original bug report. There I stated that (a) it should at least be documented, (b) the macros should preferably be renamed (using `-help-', not `-temp'), and this (c): "And after renaming functions/macros that way, I think it would be good to have real temporary-buffer facilities - a real `with-output-to-temp-buffer' (but we would need to pick a new name, to avoid confusion), one that does not imply using `help-mode' etc. The point of the last part is that there is a need for creating and using temporary buffers. That should never have been co-opted for help, but now that it is we should fix it properly: (a) call a spade a spade and (b) create new macros for really dealing with temporary buffers. From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 02:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.131579587910990 (code B ref 8368); Mon, 12 Sep 2011 02:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2011 02:51:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2wcA-0002rD-KJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:51:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R2wc7-0002qz-FA for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:51:16 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R2wXv-0005Jl-K6; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:46:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:46:55 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:48:32 +0200) References: X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) If `help-mode' is the correct mode for these buffers, then I think `with-output-to-temp-buffer' should be documented to put the buffer in help mode, and it should be done explicitly in the code -- not by having help.el alter `temp-buffer-setup-hook' when help.el is loaded. I think the reason I did it in the hook was to create a way to turn it off. Your change would eliminate that possibility. It is surely possible to change how this area works, but please don't just delete these hook settings. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" Cc: 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13355722399857 (code B ref 8368); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2012 00:17:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55907 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNvLi-0002Yv-VG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:17:19 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:23269) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNvLg-0002Yg-2s for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:17:17 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q3S0G0SO025334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:16:00 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q3S0FwWK027965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 00:15:59 GMT Received: from abhmt114.oracle.com (abhmt114.oracle.com [141.146.116.66]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q3S0Fw5F021574; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 19:15:58 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.177.52) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:15:57 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AcxwP3SyO1G1jqkdRKWu3O9UyDZHJC0kDUNA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > From: Stefan Monnier Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 9:58 PM > Lars> There's been no response in two months. Lars> I think the following is a bug: Lars> ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. Lars> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) Lars> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) Lars> Would removing these be a good idea? > > Not at this stage of the development, no. So now it's been over a year since the bug was filed. Can't the help mode code add those hooks only for the use of *Help* and other help-mode buffers? Why should all uses of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' end up running those hook functions that are, after all, specific to help mode? Can we please move forward on fixing this bug? There is lots of stuff in a "temp" buffer now that has nothing to do with a temporary buffer. emacs -Q (setq debug-on-error t) (defun foo () "..." (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*TEMP*" (princ "FOOOOO\n-----\n\n"))) (foo) C-x b *TEMP* TAB Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "No buttons!") signal(error ("No buttons!")) error("No buttons!") forward-button(1 1 1) call-interactively(forward-button nil nil) No f___ing buttons? WTF? Who cares? Look at all the keys bound now in a "temporary" buffer (below). How many of them have to do with a temporary display of something other than outright *Help*? The only keys I can think of that might generally make sense for a temporary buffer mode are SPC, DEL, <, >, ?, h, q, maybe z (but why was `z' chosen to kill?), maybe the digits and -, and maybe (if `revert-buffer-function' says so) g. All of the special help link and navigation commands should be reserved for a help mode that is _derived_ from a (minimal) temporary buffer mode. While waiting for that, users have to do something like this, just to get rid of the *Help*-imposed stuff: (defmacro with-output-to-plain-temp-buffer (buf &rest body) "Like `with-output-to-temp-buffer', but with no *Help* navigation stuff." `(unwind-protect (progn (remove-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (remove-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) (with-output-to-temp-buffer ,buf ,@body)) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish))) It makes no more sense for *Help* to have co-opted temporary buffer display than it would have made for Info to have co-opted it. Dunno how we ever went down this road. key binding --- ------- C-c Prefix Command TAB forward-button RET help-follow ESC Prefix Command SPC scroll-up-command - negative-argument 0 .. 9 digit-argument < beginning-of-buffer > end-of-buffer ? describe-mode g revert-buffer h describe-mode q quit-window z kill-this-buffer DEL scroll-down-command backward-button help-follow-mouse Prefix Command C-c C-b help-go-back C-c C-c help-follow-symbol C-c C-f help-go-forward M-TAB backward-button From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 08:27:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133560160422724 (code B ref 8368); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 08:27:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2012 08:26:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56101 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO2zL-0005uR-Mo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 04:26:44 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:39217) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO2zI-0005uE-Qj for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 04:26:42 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 28 Apr 2012 08:25:25 -0000 Received: from 62-47-37-185.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.37.185]) [62.47.37.185] by mail.gmx.net (mp072) with SMTP; 28 Apr 2012 10:25:25 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+lumIGmOOlfk7YDeOjxBTu6VwNQjE9ZYVajeMdx/ g+OuXNJXoKUy+S Message-ID: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:25:16 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > Can't the help mode code add those hooks only for the use of *Help* and other > help-mode buffers? Why should all uses of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' end up > running those hook functions that are, after all, specific to help mode? > > Can we please move forward on fixing this bug? > > There is lots of stuff in a "temp" buffer now that has nothing to do with a > temporary buffer. Maybe we could proceed as follows: (1) In my Emacs I moved `internal-temp-output-buffer-show' to Elisp and intend to apply this change to the trunk soon. Other from that, leave `with-output-to-temp-buffer' unchanged. (2) Provide a new macro which does almost the same as `with-output-to-temp-buffer', runs similar hooks ... Maybe we find some improvements though. (3) Change all callers of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' in Emacs 24 to use the new macro and *not permanently* add their functions to the new hooks. Whether we use another wrapper for this like `with-help-window' or bind the hook temporarily seems a matter of taste. (4) Declare `with-output-to-temp-buffer' obsolete. martin From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 14:03:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133562173222617 (code B ref 8368); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 14:03:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2012 14:02:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56926 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO8Dz-0005sj-TO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:02:12 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:28533) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO8Dw-0005sV-UB for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:02:10 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q3SE0obJ000331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 14:00:51 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q3SE0mS3026251 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 14:00:49 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q3SE0mQb016931; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:00:48 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.164.157) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:00:47 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 07:00:40 -0700 Message-ID: <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> Thread-Index: Ac0lGHoB1J1IwI0YR0Km3H+R0jLEqQALSSUw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > (1) In my Emacs I moved `internal-temp-output-buffer-show' to > Elisp and intend to apply this change to the trunk soon. > Other from that, leave `with-output-to-temp-buffer' unchanged. > > (2) Provide a new macro which does almost the same as > `with-output-to-temp-buffer', runs similar hooks ... Maybe > we find some improvements though. > > (3) Change all callers of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' in Emacs 24 to > use the new macro and *not permanently* add their functions to the new > hooks. Whether we use another wrapper for this like > `with-help-window' or bind the hook temporarily seems a matter of taste. > > (4) Declare `with-output-to-temp-buffer' obsolete. Hi Martin, I'm not sure I understand all of your proposal, but I think I agree. Let me just say this. If it is addressed already by your proposal (I think so), great. If not, maybe you can try to take it into consideration. Whether we have one or more different macros to distinguish temporary from help displays does not matter much to me. Likewise, the names of the macros or whatever are not what is most important (to me). Obviously, if possible, I would prefer that the names reflect the meaning/behavior - so, e.g. "temp" in one name and, say, "help" in the other. And maybe it makes sense to derive the help mode from the temp mode - dunno. What is important to me is that we distinguish the two (or more) so that programmers at least have a simple, clean way to display something in a temporary buffer with no supposition that that buffer should also be a help buffer. I.e., without removing and re-adding the help-mode hooks. Probably we will need to leave the original name for the current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something with "help" in the name, and then the original name deprecated, that would be better. (I think that's part of what you suggest.) And create a new name for the temp-without-the-help-stuff case. Whatever you decide will I'm sure be better than the hard-coded take-it-or-leave-it situation we have now. And splitting the two this way will also reduce any pressure (e.g., from users like me) not to add more help stuff to the help-mode version. I hope this can be done soon. It's been over a year since the bug report was filed. Thx - Drew From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133562572828297 (code B ref 8368); Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2012 15:08:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56961 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO9GR-0007MJ-EZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:08:47 -0400 Received: from ironport-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.143.162]:32356) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SO9GO-0007M7-NM for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:08:45 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApYIACxOgk9soXnu/2dsb2JhbABDuCMDgQyBCIIJAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBwFtjKLYYR5BKRFgV2DA4E4Fw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,391,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="177353898" Received: from 108-161-121-238.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([108.161.121.238]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Apr 2012 11:07:28 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id F338058973; Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:07:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:07:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:25:16 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.94 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > Maybe we could proceed as follows: > (1) In my Emacs I moved `internal-temp-output-buffer-show' to Elisp and > intend to apply this change to the trunk soon. Other from that, leave > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' unchanged. > (2) Provide a new macro which does almost the same as > `with-output-to-temp-buffer', runs similar hooks ... Maybe we find some > improvements though. > (3) Change all callers of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' in Emacs 24 to > use the new macro and *not permanently* add their functions to the new > hooks. Whether we use another wrapper for this like `with-help-window' > or bind the hook temporarily seems a matter of taste. > (4) Declare `with-output-to-temp-buffer' obsolete. Sounds like a good plan, Stefan From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:43:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133569615010033 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:43:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2012 10:42:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57494 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SORaI-0002bm-DM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:42:30 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:39458) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SORaF-0002bY-C5 for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 06:42:28 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 29 Apr 2012 10:41:06 -0000 Received: from 62-47-62-154.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.62.154]) [62.47.62.154] by mail.gmx.net (mp041) with SMTP; 29 Apr 2012 12:41:06 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX194oXABCYt4YRpDrZtsWqgSCYIGkN6zz4osAT918/ 9lqVkXeEtwnUbU Message-ID: <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 12:40:56 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > What is important to me is that we distinguish the two (or more) so that > programmers at least have a simple, clean way to display something in a > temporary buffer with no supposition that that buffer should also be a help > buffer. I.e., without removing and re-adding the help-mode hooks. You don't have to remove and re-add any hooks. It's sufficient to turn off help mode in the body of `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Similarly, if you don't want to run `completion-list-mode-finish', turn off `completion-list-mode' in the buffer. > Probably we will need to leave the original name for the current behavior, but > if it could be aliased to something with "help" in the name, and then the > original name deprecated, that would be better. (I think that's part of what > you suggest.) And create a new name for the temp-without-the-help-stuff case. Basically, `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is a misnomer. The buffer is not necessarily temporary, hence `with-output-temporarily-bound-to-buffer' would be a better name for this. In addition, it displays the buffer in some window and this is not reflected in the name. martin From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13357134045421 (code B ref 8368); Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2012 15:30:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57890 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOW4Z-0001PN-4x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:30:03 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:30748) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOW4E-0001O7-IP for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:30:01 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q3TFSG3Z012720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:28:17 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q3TFSFd8022121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:28:16 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q3TFSFrq014611; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:28:15 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.176.150) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 29 Apr 2012 08:28:15 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 08:28:04 -0700 Message-ID: <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> Thread-Index: Ac0l9JcLTCdBSd+ZSUCeoEbNE1bmRQAJ14BA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > You don't have to remove and re-add any hooks. It's > sufficient to turn off help mode in the body of > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Similarly, > if you don't want to run `completion-list-mode-finish', turn off > `completion-list-mode' in the buffer. Sufficient? That sounds like more work, not less. Why turn help mode etc. on automatically and then turn it off again. Why not just remove the hook so it does not get turned on? I'm probably missing something in what you're suggesting. > > Probably we will need to leave the original name for the > > current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something > > with "help" in the name, and then the original name deprecated, > > that would be better. (I think that's part of what > > you suggest.) And create a new name for the > > temp-without-the-help-stuff case. > > Basically, `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is a misnomer. The > buffer is not necessarily temporary, hence > `with-output-temporarily-bound-to-buffer' > would be a better name for this. True, but I don't really have a problem with that. "Temporary" can mean different things depending on the use to which this is put. A buffer that I display showing some information might be considered temporary if the user is likely to throw it away soon after seeing the info. At another extreme, a temporary buffer might be one that a program uses without ever displaying and kills when done. > In addition, it displays the buffer in > some window and this is not reflected in the name. True again. This point is more important, IMO, than the "temporary" point. It would be good for the name to indicate that the buffer is shown to the user. From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13357789367155 (code B ref 8368); Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2012 09:42:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58520 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOn7Y-0001rL-HH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 05:42:16 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:35042) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOn7B-0001qJ-Jm for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 05:42:14 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 30 Apr 2012 09:40:26 -0000 Received: from 62-47-60-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.60.232]) [62.47.60.232] by mail.gmx.net (mp070) with SMTP; 30 Apr 2012 11:40:26 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/t2RpN8fztKY01MuvU6JMIm54ymmT8Z9KcvNMddi HHAYTWvhwAyl9e Message-ID: <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:40:24 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) >> You don't have to remove and re-add any hooks. It's >> sufficient to turn off help mode in the body of >> `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Similarly, >> if you don't want to run `completion-list-mode-finish', turn off >> `completion-list-mode' in the buffer. > > Sufficient? That sounds like more work, not less. Why turn help mode etc. on > automatically and then turn it off again. Why not just remove the hook so it > does not get turned on? Because it's non-trivial to "just" do that. We have to go through all users of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' and check whether they want to turn on help mode or not. I don't have the slightest idea whether, for example, the calls in ada-xref.el require activating help mode or not. > I'm probably missing something in what you're > suggesting. No. But you earlier said that > While waiting for that, users have to do something like this, just to get rid of > the *Help*-imposed stuff: > > (defmacro with-output-to-plain-temp-buffer (buf &rest body) > "Like `with-output-to-temp-buffer', but with no *Help* navigation stuff." > `(unwind-protect > (progn > (remove-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (remove-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > (with-output-to-temp-buffer ,buf ,@body)) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish))) and I simply explained that there's an easier way to achieve what you want. Obviously, dealing with `temp-buffer-show-hook' in `with-output-to-plain-temp-buffer' isn't necessary either if you don't run `help-mode-setup' before. martin From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:30:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.13357961959153 (code B ref 8368); Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:30:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2012 14:29:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59061 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOrbu-0002Na-Hd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:29:54 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:37024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SOrbs-0002NN-JK for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:29:53 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q3UESMKV029782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:28:23 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q3UESK8b010345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:28:21 GMT Received: from abhmt105.oracle.com (abhmt105.oracle.com [141.146.116.57]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q3UESKSn005566; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:28:20 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.172.167) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:28:19 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 07:28:04 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac0mtUhyqySTjdBxT1y0b1tok0o4NgAJj5iA X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > >> You don't have to remove and re-add any hooks. It's > >> sufficient to turn off help mode in the body of > >> `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Similarly, > >> if you don't want to run `completion-list-mode-finish', turn off > >> `completion-list-mode' in the buffer. > > > > Sufficient? That sounds like more work, not less. Why > > turn help mode etc. on automatically and then turn it off again. > > Why not just remove the hook so it does not get turned on? > > Because it's non-trivial to "just" do that. We have to go through all > users of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' and check whether they want to > turn on help mode or not. I don't have the slightest idea > whether, for example, the calls in ada-xref.el require activating > help mode or not. We might be miscommunicating. First, let me say that I don't really want to argue about the solution so much as report the problem and ask for a solution. Second, I was not talking about changing any existing code, especially Emacs Dev code. I was simply saying that because help-mode stuff is currently hard-coded into `w-o-t-t-b', then IF a programmer wants a temp buffer without that help stuff then s?he can do something like what I wrote, as a workaround: define a macro that uses `w-o-t-t-b', but first removes the help-stuff hooks and restores them afterward. That's all. Your suggestion was IIUC to instead use `w-o-t-t-b' and just turn off help-mode in the BODY. OK, but that means that help-mode is entered and exited for nothing - the hooks are run uselessly. That's all I was pointing out. Nothing wrong with such useless work, but it, like my workaround, does not seem like the solution to the problem. > Obviously, dealing with `temp-buffer-show-hook' in > `with-output-to-plain-temp-buffer' isn't necessary either if you don't > run `help-mode-setup' before. Ah, yes. Of course that means paying even more attention etc. Anyway, thanks for thinking about this. I really would like to see Emacs fixed in this regard. To my mind (not having thought much about it, and being pretty ignorant about it), I would think that inheritance could be used to factor out the stuff that is not specifically for help mode (i.e., have the help-mode stuff inherit from that). From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 08:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133585983315696 (code B ref 8368); Tue, 01 May 2012 08:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2012 08:10:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59853 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SP8AK-000455-AU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2012 04:10:33 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:56028) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SP8AI-00044s-EL for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2012 04:10:31 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 May 2012 08:08:58 -0000 Received: from 62-47-47-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.47.233]) [62.47.47.233] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 01 May 2012 10:08:58 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+55k0gQTS5Zvi/mDZ5S9bq9em0lIZvklQtn3cQeU rd4MAiAOf3Qwjf Message-ID: <4F9F9A19.30402@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 10:08:57 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > IF a programmer wants a temp buffer without that help > stuff then s?he can do something like what I wrote, as a workaround: define a > macro that uses `w-o-t-t-b', but first removes the help-stuff hooks and restores > them afterward. That's all. S?he could also write such a macro from scratch and post the result here together with a suitable name. > Your suggestion was IIUC to instead use `w-o-t-t-b' and just turn off help-mode > in the BODY. OK, but that means that help-mode is entered and exited for > nothing - the hooks are run uselessly. Who cares? The overhead for removing and adding a hook (with all the necessary protection) is just as high. > That's all I was pointing out. Nothing > wrong with such useless work, but it, like my workaround, does not seem like the > solution to the problem. We agree here. >> Obviously, dealing with `temp-buffer-show-hook' in >> `with-output-to-plain-temp-buffer' isn't necessary either if you don't >> run `help-mode-setup' before. > > Ah, yes. Of course that means paying even more attention etc. > > Anyway, thanks for thinking about this. I really would like to see Emacs fixed > in this regard. To my mind (not having thought much about it, and being pretty > ignorant about it), I would think that inheritance could be used to factor out > the stuff that is not specifically for help mode (i.e., have the help-mode stuff > inherit from that). That's the way to go, yes. The question is rather one of how to avoid confusing users when we have, for example, a `temp-buffer-setup-hook' and a `plain-temp-buffer-setup-hook' and BOTH get run when we invoke the inheriting macro. martin From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133587790216708 (code B ref 8368); Tue, 01 May 2012 13:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2012 13:11:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60514 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPCrl-0004LQ-GR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2012 09:11:42 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:23956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPCri-0004LD-Tl for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2012 09:11:39 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q41DA5Zl032559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 1 May 2012 13:10:05 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q41DA3EX011293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 1 May 2012 13:10:04 GMT Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q41DA2F6003224; Tue, 1 May 2012 08:10:02 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.222.14) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 01 May 2012 06:10:02 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> <4F9F9A19.30402@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 06:09:59 -0700 Message-ID: <44E8D30016CC4FBBBD986DD8F8FE5BC6@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4F9F9A19.30402@gmx.at> Thread-Index: Ac0ncavBkXmh6W8WTcimCVt94tFcNgAKKGag X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > The question is rather one of how to avoid > confusing users when we have, for example, a `temp-buffer-setup-hook' > and a `plain-temp-buffer-setup-hook' and BOTH get run when we > invoke the inheriting macro. I thought both what you proposed and what I proposed addressed this: rename (alias) and deprecate the old, misleading names. Seems like we're going 'round in circles now. I thought we (you & I & Stefan, at least) had already agreed on a reasonable solution. And I was pretty clear that the names are not what is most important to me. What matters most is to have a macro that does only the non-help stuff, separate from the macro that does also the help stuff. To repeat: >> Probably we will need to leave the original name for the >> current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something >> with "help" in the name, and then the original name deprecated, >> that would be better. (I think that's part of what >> you suggest.) And create a new name for the >> temp-without-the-help-stuff case. >> >> Whatever you decide will I'm sure be better than the hard-coded >> take-it-or-leave-it situation we have now. And splitting the >> two this way will also reduce any pressure (e.g., from users >> like me) not to add more help stuff to the help-mode version. From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 09:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133595173112275 (code B ref 8368); Wed, 02 May 2012 09:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2012 09:42:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33267 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPW4T-0003Bq-KL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2012 05:42:11 -0400 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.22]:56550) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPW4Q-0003BB-JE for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2012 05:42:03 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 May 2012 09:40:24 -0000 Received: from 62-47-54-98.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.54.98]) [62.47.54.98] by mail.gmx.net (mp004) with SMTP; 02 May 2012 11:40:24 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+DUeogh8KDsWKhHpWo8Qddd/B7rJZnhErnBdc+uy +n2YlZzVGp401z Message-ID: <4FA1011A.2070300@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 11:40:42 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> <4F9F9A19.30402@gmx.at> <44E8D30016CC4FBBBD986DD8F8FE5BC6@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <44E8D30016CC4FBBBD986DD8F8FE5BC6@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > I thought both what you proposed and what I proposed addressed this: rename > (alias) and deprecate the old, misleading names. Seems like we're going 'round > in circles now. I thought we (you & I & Stefan, at least) had already agreed on > a reasonable solution. > > And I was pretty clear that the names are not what is most important to me. > What matters most is to have a macro that does only the non-help stuff, separate > from the macro that does also the help stuff. Can you tell me what you mean here? In the first paragraph you say that you want to rename and in the second paragraph you say that the names are not important to you. What I proposed boils down to write (at least) two new macros: One which sets up `help-mode' and one which does not. The question (for me) is whether the former should call the later and which hooks these should run (if at all). The `with-output-to-temp-buffer' macro would stay in place until we can safely tell that it doesn't have any more callers. martin From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 14:22:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.133596847917189 (code B ref 8368); Wed, 02 May 2012 14:22:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2012 14:21:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33857 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPaQg-0004TC-Bu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2012 10:21:19 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:30118) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SPaQd-0004Sz-7H for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 May 2012 10:21:16 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q42EJZUp019988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 2 May 2012 14:19:35 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q42EJXAo020006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 2 May 2012 14:19:33 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q42EJX74004492; Wed, 2 May 2012 09:19:33 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.251) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 02 May 2012 07:19:32 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <4573CB93BA8F47DD922007A8C8CF3EB3@us.oracle.com> <4F9D1AB8.5090302@gmx.at> <2F5D2C7A2A6D44A3B25C5891EFEF7DF0@us.oracle.com> <4F9E5E08.4030400@gmx.at> <4F9F9A19.30402@gmx.at> <44E8D30016CC4FBBBD986DD8F8FE5BC6@us.oracle.com> <4FA1011A.2070300@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 07:19:25 -0700 Message-ID: <37DC1189281D4B009CC215D5C3A3B632@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4FA1011A.2070300@gmx.at> Thread-Index: Ac0oR5t8pCm1EZeFQnWjE5rqXZaWkgAI+qjQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > > I thought both what you proposed and what I proposed > > addressed this: rename (alias) and deprecate the old, > > misleading names. Seems like we're going 'round > > in circles now. I thought we (you & I & Stefan, at least) > > had already agreed on a reasonable solution. > > > > And I was pretty clear that the names are not what is > > most important to me. ^^^^ > > What matters most is to have a macro that does only the > > non-help stuff, separate from the macro that does also > > the help stuff. > > Can you tell me what you mean here? In the first paragraph > you say that you want to rename Just a proposal. If we have two macros, one for help stuff and one for only displaying etc but with nothing specific to help-mode, that would be good. If, in addition, the name of the help-mode specific one could have "help" in it, so much the better. One way to get the naming right is to defalias any name that will be inappropriate in the end to a new, more appropriate name (e.g. `...-help-...'). Deprecation does not mean immediate desupport, and it might not ever imply desupport. It means that what is deprecated _might_ be desupported at some time in the future. So users of the old name are not impacted. It's just a heads-up to users. They are forewarned that they might want to update the name sooner rather than later. But they _need not_ do so until desupport happens, if it ever does. The new, preferred name is what will be documented and increasingly used for new code etc. And even earlier I said: >> Probably we will need to leave the original name for the >> current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something >> with "help" in the name, and then the >> original name deprecated, that would be better. > and in the second paragraph you say that the names > are not important to you. No. Names are always important. What I said was that getting good names is not _as important_ as separating out the help-specific stuff, e.g., having two separate macros. Names are not the "most" important thing. And even earlier I said: >> Whether we have one or more different macros to distinguish >> temporary from help displays does not matter much to me. >> Likewise, the names of the macros or whatever are not what >> is most important (to me). >> >> Obviously, if possible, I would prefer that the names >> reflect the meaning/behavior - so, e.g. "temp" in >> one name and, say, "help" in the other. And maybe it >> makes sense to derive the help mode from the temp mode >> - dunno. > What I proposed boils down to write (at least) two new > macros: One which sets up `help-mode' and one which does not. And I agreed. And I said, "I don't really want to argue about the solution so much as report the problem and ask for a solution." > The question (for me) is whether the former should call the > lat[t]er and which hooks these should run (if at all). See above. I'm sure I'm OK with whatever you decide. As I said earlier: >> Whatever you decide will I'm sure be better than the >> hard-coded take-it-or-leave-it situation we have now. > The `with-output-to-temp-buffer' macro would stay in > place until we can safely tell that it doesn't have any more callers. Sounds good to me. My only proposal in that regard was to create an alias with a better name (e.g. `...-help-...'), and deprecate `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to encourage use of the new name. Am I still not clear enough? In sum, please go for it. I'm OK with what you propose to do. From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:29:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: martin rudalics , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.146183930531442 (code B ref 8368); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:29:02 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2016 10:28:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51246 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avjBJ-0008B4-8B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:28:25 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:34666) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avjBH-0008Au-7n for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 06:28:23 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avjBC-0000VI-84; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:28:20 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:28:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sat, 28 Apr 2012 11:07:27 -0400") Message-ID: <871t5qqb7h.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Stefan Monnier writes: >> Maybe we could proceed as follows: > >> (1) In my Emacs I moved `internal-temp-output-buffer-show' to Elisp and >> intend to apply this change to the trunk soon. Other from that, leave >> `with-output-to-temp-buffer' unchanged. This was done, I think... >> (2) Provide a new macro which does almost the same as >> `with-output-to-temp-buffer', runs similar hooks ... Maybe we find some >> improvements though. > >> (3) Change all callers of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' in Emacs 24 to >> use the new macro and *not permanently* add their functions to the new >> hooks. Whether we use another wrapper for this like `with-help-window' >> or bind the hook temporarily seems a matter of taste. > >> (4) Declare `with-output-to-temp-buffer' obsolete. > > Sounds like a good plan, But the rest was not. Instead `with-output-to-temp-buffer' has been documented to run help-mode by default, so perhaps somebody decided on not doing this changearoo? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Sat Sep 06 14:23:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#8368: 24.0.50; "temp" means "help" - rename or at least document Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 20:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8368 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: martin rudalics , 8368@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 8368-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8368.157082606623969 (code B ref 8368); Fri, 11 Oct 2019 20:35:01 +0000 Received: (at 8368) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2019 20:34:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60455 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1cI-0006EX-0R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:34:26 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:42178) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1cH-0006EQ-3N for 8368@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:34:25 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1c9-0002ET-PB; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:34:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <4F9BA96C.8070005@gmx.at> <871t5qqb7h.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:34:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: <871t5qqb7h.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2016 12:28:18 +0200") Message-ID: <87mue7komu.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > But the rest was not. Instead `with-output-to-temp-buffer' has been > documented to run help-mode by default, so perhaps somebody decided on > not doing this changearoo? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > But the rest was not. Instead `with-output-to-temp-buffer' has been > documented to run help-mode by default, so perhaps somebody decided on > not doing this changearoo? This was three years ago, and the bug report otherwise was last touched seven years ago, so I think indeed that was the decision, and I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 11 16:34:29 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2019 20:34:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60458 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1cL-0006En-AV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:34:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:42202) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1cJ-0006Ef-U8 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:34:28 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ1cH-0002Ec-8V for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:34:27 +0200 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:34:24 +0200 Message-Id: <87lftrkomn.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #8368 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 8368 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) close 8368 quit