From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 10 15:41:00 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2011 20:41:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfL-0001Z2-Vq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:41:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfK-0001Yr-GU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfD-0005qd-5H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:53 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_DKIM_INVALID, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:57454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfD-0005qT-2l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:51 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=55365 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxmfC-0006lq-1N for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfA-0005ni-30 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:49 -0500 Received: from mail-yi0-f41.google.com ([209.85.218.41]:47785) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxmfA-0005n3-0N for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:40:48 -0500 Received: by yib2 with SMTP id 2so1096830yib.0 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:40:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Z3+VQ565nz31EDChR2uzMthhAPiyqCflh/ua/MeR0xo=; b=fJYp4HgUWiXa7HNQCwl1PakZGSZlbA6iSmZ7+bP8HJ2b6sLbQs7eIbtuJNjgZyO5w6 WH94PapKFW48ceG6TLkBdIHKoz0olcRY2vwUR0GLRbpeu+sb9W89DF0FAfGq+p1s6Efp /vfCKGGVA19MA2vqURFKQ7R7i4dnshNvEnvlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=D/9QW5fZnpM79288LgZSSBSvQ1pLYL8BNGAPzumzsTQib8ADes0c5FZ7cm/oc3MNx+ zq8yDafzVFQXHLW6IELbTQc3LHJ5GXifVfT2yzEBES5OIQ8gavesMp2OqXFD83Xiob10 EgSYJIpRoTzoMZCb+7ZMLiF7Rc0plKmiQG5Po= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.56.17 with SMTP id e17mr1617991yba.190.1299789647089; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.78.4 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:40:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:40:47 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup From: Dani Moncayo To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 199.232.76.165 X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) Hi, 1.- Set up a Windows XP system in such way that Emacs, during its statup, can't find any possible "init file" (.emacs, .emacs.el, .init.el, ...) in any of the possible paths it may look for (see [1]). 2.- Create a brand new emacs init file with the single sentence (setq inhibit-startup-screen t), and save it as "c:\_emacs". 3.- Start emacs "normally" (whithout -Q, because we want to test the search of our init file). According to [1], Emacs should be able to find (and execute) the init file created in #2, i.e., the statup screen should NOT be shown. But in fact it is, i.e., Emacs could not find the file. [1] (info "(emacs) Windows HOME") -- Dani Moncayo In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-02-28 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: ESN value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: cp1252 default enable-multibyte-characters: t From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 10 21:36:46 2011 Received: (at 8220) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 02:36:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxsDe-0004IQ-1Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:36:46 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.213.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxsDc-0004IE-OS for 8220@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:36:45 -0500 Received: by yxk30 with SMTP id 30so1022997yxk.3 for <8220@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:36:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=biH5LYKk8w7WEDFQ8I6V5DOu/w2N+EJ16VtaKg3mwFg=; b=dL/Mno/fZP5b9jseyZTvIFUiJe86/6IyfqDoDF4vRBzT6RCPu3uIsOc8g9JlonNivv pgHh4dTl3UbiX76LhMfRArSCpdfkCTJQwNz2U7azpYBqrLsk4pWqUd4SRFJk9AeQFOtu 2TECWYGNLfHsAa7kNiJ04M2ghEPqpkDS2wdHU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FWLVReAN7A6l/fhTJ627+9VmugawPhY+nEgLmbJ64Ah21q6zN8XRcLwRDSYiI1xLLp ykLibqEIWpNPSPQxK5sGKoupFfKNWThJ3VPX1tdYNd6wKmOA8jBjvYWhxt/81F0ZMbmz YuSPUdmdQt4+7E69QcaDFd4Xksnl9O6ayLQKI= Received: by 10.236.181.163 with SMTP id l23mr2181776yhm.153.1299810999121; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:36:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:35:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:35:59 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Dani Moncayo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220 Cc: 8220@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 21:40, Dani Moncayo wrote: > According to [1], Emacs should be able to find (and execute) the init fil= e > created in #2, i.e., the statup screen should NOT be shown. But in fact > it is, i.e., Emacs could not find the file. The wording is a bit ambiguous, because it only says [...] the Windows port of Emacs supports an alternative name `_emacs' as a fallback, if such a file exists in the home directory, whereas `.emacs' does not. and the paragraphs before that one aren't 100% specific about whether in this case "the home directory" means the directory pointed by the HOME environment variable, or all searched ones. I'd say the former, but the comment Whatever the final place is, Emacs sets the value of the `HOME' environment variable to point to it, makes this less than clear-cut, and in fact, the order in which [._]emacs is searched (I'm ignoring ~/.emacs.d/init.el) is %HOME%\.emacs %HOME%\_emacs C:\.emacs %APPDATA%\.emacs %APPDATA%\_emacs so there *is* an inconsistency. That said, _emacs is an obsolete name (on Windows, not MS-DOS), so it's not worth changing this IMO. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 00:56:27 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 05:56:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKs-0000xl-P2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKr-0000xa-9w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKk-0005Gd-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:20 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_DKIM_INVALID, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:57182) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKk-0005GZ-S1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:18 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49260 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxvKj-00032M-ET for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKh-0005Fq-Fz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f41.google.com ([209.85.210.41]:48893) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxvKh-0005Fl-4A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 00:56:15 -0500 Received: by pzk32 with SMTP id 32so283796pzk.0 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:56:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=654M2WhlT+nm59xilYOcHXOAkSZajOSEBlmjzQK2xJM=; b=Z5YApHb1tTCHJ0r+8qlfkKIlMn+hVxuMUajVENTcUmF9SMVdFHXcH5OQYs5gzmjsvW zDiip0mvpGMHLrM0Tdw3TFLigtxs6AoqgUlGtFyayIwx34/Fgo55FD7p9eRnoYTJ6UJQ FTHR6VhG5Y6f8R38y24mJbV1DkqifKb3Z1Jx0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iztR3Fk8bXfKA+mBjBoZCU6IOkf6D3i1iXpajtZemZymi0sEYT8o4AZV8lbY2j//lZ hkj/BWM24r+Tx6XG+h98uJglMS4/AJouObTznf7RSQCr+mVWhplvr513zmXjDDm4Sf7+ GEFnQf6ypdw4BPm0555eBzPDR70cgWtVpc7W0= Received: by 10.142.163.9 with SMTP id l9mr1847964wfe.231.1299822973963; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.1.54] ([61.4.103.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s41sm4902911wfc.3.2011.03.10.21.56.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:56:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:56:03 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 199.232.76.165 X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On 11/03/2011 10:35, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > makes this less than clear-cut, and in fact, the order in which > [._]emacs is searched (I'm ignoring ~/.emacs.d/init.el) is > > %HOME%\.emacs > %HOME%\_emacs > C:\.emacs > %APPDATA%\.emacs > %APPDATA%\_emacs > More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are searched there. Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for backwards compatibility with older versions) Otherwise %HOME% is implicitly set to the user's Application Data directory, obtained through system calls. (ignoring the fact that these system calls are not available on Windows 95 and NT4 without IE5 or later installed, since such systems are unlikely to still exist). > so there *is* an inconsistency. That said, _emacs is an obsolete name > (on Windows, not MS-DOS), so it's not worth changing this IMO. > This is the first bug report since the change was made in 22.1 (I think). And it appears the user is not encountering problems upgrading an older working installation but trying to set up a new installation, so I agree it is not important to fix this now. In fact, we could start issuing a warning if the fallback directory of C:\ is detected as being used in Emacs 24, so we can remove this fallback in a future release. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 01:43:07 2011 Received: (at 8220) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 06:43:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pxw42-0001yH-JF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:43:06 -0500 Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.213.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pxw3z-0001xl-P0 for 8220@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:43:04 -0500 Received: by ywi6 with SMTP id 6so1098664ywi.3 for <8220@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:42:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TpE6yOVG3m/ryLvlgv/Z1p33ubuEV/LUjwvfzhyxFvg=; b=LlT6mrOlx1M2cg96l3J0lzVeklk/d6E+4znywX/0XQD88yoVGdVA+UefQReEiaoKCX THPNvfyDDaDHClAB2YF2xHW8uc1VxezL/TdNi1WuRkI3H6B6FpualP+OtPuS6/jsjYxv UMEgmJfFuwwTZ7FImN5qf1YuXfVEjnFV5Zji8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=yEdiR1p7yVgWK4D0ZxY+r5EC1FAcd+p+m0SP8SBtCFg51x08mAPH2+RRN7DvLryD60 KK5CONx/6eWDj7k1HwQpEGAReib4KwFQIDqI2zzqX79eVvseFC8k0+ElgF1yxWZGqCFM qQUpvxQa4daJklvCfGQd3NvGnFYGvO98XWHug= Received: by 10.236.120.45 with SMTP id o33mr2022758yhh.53.1299825778099; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:42:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:42:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:42:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Jason Rumney Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220 Cc: 8220@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 06:56, Jason Rumney wrote: > More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are searche= d > there. > Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for > backwards compatibility with older versions) Well, sort of, because when HOME is implicitly set to C:\, only the existence of .emacs is checked, not _emacs, while the same is not true for an explicit HOME or for the AppData directory. > In fact, we could start issuing a warning > if the fallback directory of C:\ is detected as being used in Emacs 24, s= o > we can remove this fallback in a future release. Yes, I think that's a good idea. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 04:33:34 2011 Received: (at 8220) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 09:33:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pxyiz-0005mc-Rf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 04:33:34 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.161.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pxyiy-0005mR-F1 for 8220@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 04:33:32 -0500 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so46218gxk.3 for <8220@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:33:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=w+4Y0RNjnW2SkNtvQGGr03gWyONcz1EBIxmC0AyqzxU=; b=VDtQ0aUqPC5Q+hWuaABCQ1Uep1QqFydIce8UcxAOlsNUbCTR8enXOR8fioMW47DBY8 fYDLDuOc30408EXYzVj4+brtSOZnB29gH7MCkgBGqFcj0+G6RvR8P+nyUHxK3HlDsBjE 4yK0S+8OpPflACF3OlymGsTgYVSacv+CFg/RQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=xzKe3xLsPZriY2frh7gYa2Vf1BiVou8GaiW9QE6chQsSXZetm3Hfvv3/Fs1Jpfv2qw df6zHXoFsZgy1BSxYT8lc4yZV0NmH7CM1hExZBWcWVfftv2sMhEQhnsf6h8LbTbOdtxb iGLepK13KKuIkS/Di9T9HFvr7xD0l+kxwB29I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.198.8 with SMTP id u8mr2646817yhn.104.1299836006952; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.78.4 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 01:33:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:33:26 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup From: Dani Moncayo To: Juanma Barranquero Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220 Cc: 8220@debbugs.gnu.org, Jason Rumney X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 07:42, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 06:56, Jason Rumney wrote: > >> More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are searched >> there. >> Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for >> backwards compatibility with older versions) > > Well, sort of, because when HOME is implicitly set to C:\, only the > existence of .emacs is checked, not _emacs, while the same is not true > for an explicit HOME or for the AppData directory. > Yes, and I wonder why to have this inconsistency. Why don't check always for the same alternatives of init file? Even when checking under "C:\"?. >> In fact, we could start issuing a warning >> if the fallback directory of C:\ is detected as being used in Emacs 24, so >> we can remove this fallback in a future release. > > Yes, I think that's a good idea. > Fine by me too. -- Dani Moncayo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 06:23:59 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 11:24:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0Rr-0008Cv-BM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:23:59 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0Rq-0008Ci-Ik for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:23:58 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LHW00B004INAD00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:23:27 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.58.59]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LHW008GZ4Z1VMT0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:23:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:23:29 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Dani Moncayo Message-id: <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:33:26 +0100 > From: Dani Moncayo > Cc: 8220@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 07:42, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 06:56, Jason Rumney wrote: > > > >> More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are searched > >> there. > >> Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for > >> backwards compatibility with older versions) > > > > Well, sort of, because when HOME is implicitly set to C:\, only the > > existence of .emacs is checked, not _emacs, while the same is not true > > for an explicit HOME or for the AppData directory. > > > Yes, and I wonder why to have this inconsistency. Why don't check > always for the same alternatives of init file? Even when checking > under "C:\"?. Because we want to deprecate both C:\.emacs and the _emacs features. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 06:25:39 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 11:25:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TS-0008Gi-TO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TQ-0008GU-Gu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TK-0002Rp-4D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:31 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB autolearn=no version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:60661) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TJ-0002Ra-Tj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:30 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58991 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Py0TI-0007Ho-0T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TA-0002NB-9s for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:21 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:35066) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0TA-0002Mb-2y; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:25:20 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LHW00M004K6MB00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:25:18 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.58.59]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LHW00M2U5258ND0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:25:18 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:25:21 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup In-reply-to: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Jason Rumney Message-id: <83vczpucf2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 199.232.76.165 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:56:03 +0800 > From: Jason Rumney > Cc: > > On 11/03/2011 10:35, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > > > makes this less than clear-cut, and in fact, the order in which > > [._]emacs is searched (I'm ignoring ~/.emacs.d/init.el) is > > > > %HOME%\.emacs > > %HOME%\_emacs > > C:\.emacs > > %APPDATA%\.emacs > > %APPDATA%\_emacs > > > > More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are > searched there. > Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for > backwards compatibility with older versions) > Otherwise %HOME% is implicitly set to the user's Application Data > directory, obtained through system calls. I tried to explain this algorithm in the manual in more user-friendly terms. Please take a look (posted in another mail in bug #8221). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 06:29:32 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 11:29:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0XE-0008MF-7b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:29:32 -0500 Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com ([209.85.218.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0XB-0008M0-Bq for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:29:29 -0500 Received: by yic13 with SMTP id 13so1170965yic.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:29:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=B5cdTfVlJF97LhFX7gVYhxNS4/qwO6xcIR2xeS8GOnM=; b=haBObaXDnt6YT/Gcx4AyNyFSyFG/j1WFICBeLjGjH69LoPzHH/DqGsBBdwsw1pRTPl dNcvIziPyET3acmT4xgzF0JrDS9dOdJBaiEW6mtZ1CWV7xVMsl6n2FzcQo/qEremcKDV 1HYm73g3N95CDB9nAN4Wi/DDLh8JMUsZDJuR4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=n65G8bZBb38cpyrefrjEwwiNiJzkjKa+VjSDWwe3lpw2fWEpApFGVWKo8iL7nWw8aN PUMlaXUdjaPA3qH9WmU+F49xPw6mbWTIavhPdS1dVJq/ZIP/5OQXjjR93xdvNNuza1pf iP/E2khKeuCb5PHDuME/UmtLztpbGMphPotXk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.143.178 with SMTP id l38mr2361151yhj.54.1299842963908; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.78.4 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:29:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:29:23 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup From: Dani Moncayo To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:33:26 +0100 >> From: Dani Moncayo >> Cc: 8220@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 07:42, Juanma Barranquero wrote: >> > On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 06:56, Jason Rumney wrote: >> > >> >> More accurately, if %HOME% is set explicitly, then init files are searched >> >> there. >> >> Otherwise if c:\.emacs exists, then %HOME% is implicitly set to C:\ (for >> >> backwards compatibility with older versions) >> > >> > Well, sort of, because when HOME is implicitly set to C:\, only the >> > existence of .emacs is checked, not _emacs, while the same is not true >> > for an explicit HOME or for the AppData directory. >> > >> Yes, and I wonder why to have this inconsistency. Why don't check >> always for the same alternatives of init file? Even when checking >> under "C:\"?. > > Because we want to deprecate both C:\.emacs and the _emacs features. > Thanks, Eli and Juanma. -- Dani Moncayo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 06:32:13 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 11:32:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0Zo-0008QG-Uh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:32:13 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.161.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py0Zn-0008Q3-65 for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:32:11 -0500 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so84914gxk.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:32:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=lSAtXN5iYq8Jz7U9hFxf5AKZ+NfrNqD7ZH2IaxK+FM0=; b=pC23Ph8Jd84oDN3GjHhR8sDTqCwvtyN4S4otz0iKzH0bEXESzW+BPQ2fFLhd2UIQTy U0jYP5HzC10L1oZaAusAq83G5E3n1CS8sNkVIN7pUywzOhJr0vCZrajUyZvaEi6kdAaN jfL2+GD6PwhF8TMgZl7iep6VRfzWaB+CtsZ0s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Ed7xBwUTMjcCUqR3v5+EC2gRBHMj+J4mi65Iicb3iONeP20Z1eCaSfwG1+fI+Ev7Px iuhYXJykk2fw0c5x5OPCWLwh9zbS5w3r5sn6NWs/8CvFa1YZCl7Yn4/ezhO9KDNlVpCs SRQZEoFNmzLlmKbTLq4IycARsSN3XlqbD0+nY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.56.17 with SMTP id e17mr2634051yba.190.1299843125570; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.78.4 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:32:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:32:05 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup From: Dani Moncayo To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 12:29, Dani Moncayo wrote: > > Thanks, Eli and Juanma. > ...oops, and Jason (everyone who spent time o this) ;) -- Dani Moncayo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 09:49:18 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 14:49:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py3eY-000531-2X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:49:18 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py3eW-00052n-1G for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:49:16 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2BEn7OI011210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:49:08 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2BEn5e8022959; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:49:05 GMT Received: from abhmt020.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1130140981299854844; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:47:24 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.37.232) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:47:23 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , "'Dani Moncayo'" References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 06:47:21 -0800 Message-ID: <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Acvf4MTxsZ38gJBRSP6XaUmoLLLa3wAGf/ng X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4D7A3663.003D,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > > Well, sort of, because when HOME is implicitly set to > > > C:\, only the existence of .emacs is checked, not _emacs, > > > while the same is not true for an explicit HOME or for the > > > AppData directory. A bug, IMO. > > Yes, and I wonder why to have this inconsistency. Why don't check > > always for the same alternatives of init file? Even when checking > > under "C:\"?. > > Because we want to deprecate both C:\.emacs and the _emacs features. Too bad. $HOME as c:\ should not be treated differently from other dirs as $HOME. And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not something that should be removed. Just one opinion. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 10:28:32 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 15:28:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py4GV-0005y7-LS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:28:32 -0500 Received: from mail-yx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.213.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py4GU-0005xq-6B for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:28:30 -0500 Received: by yxk30 with SMTP id 30so1280955yxk.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:28:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OZTOr8ePROfz3cZkvjLPP2DCQraJpIke0B13TY6ipQ4=; b=Dwc6mjsg9q/ydsuDAIubZepYYdNr/lzTKwk42m5nUKG5w/eX5voQ03xiX1RBCAGoQM gXlX2+a4HtCNdQS7+sTOhhsHTDoRgYdMZVHXbljNpaXiDESxpE/mFp5YWZ4V6up54SRm +7MrvXUcscWnPWVQSYO8jtAL7cdQD4UXkQZHY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=SxAAXNi8cpTd3No9ELSBp4kphKPgSTyuVo+wXx/I68Cadl2YYu0D0ghVzEkHfjvSaL fi5cs+akToI5nJVz0K/unkjcpfh2S+z3abD2TFoxp5V+VpJ+SQIhZtmaIKkx21X+wQuM wWcypyIIpna1UgQqlk1gQjxcfsfDFBlGX2U2s= Received: by 10.236.120.45 with SMTP id o33mr2705907yhh.53.1299857299628; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:28:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:20:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:20:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Dani Moncayo X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 15:47, Drew Adams wrote: > Too bad. =C2=A0$HOME as c:\ should not be treated differently from other = dirs as $HOME. It isn't, if you set HOME to C:\. Which you should, IMHO, if you want to use it as home. > And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not something that should= be > removed. Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for compatibility with older versions of Emacs". Sooner or later it's time to go forward and abandon such cruft. > Just one opinion. Same here. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 10:43:10 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 15:43:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py4Ug-0006Ji-Nf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:43:10 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py4Uc-0006JB-Lh for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:43:07 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LHW00E00GRHJ100@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:42:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.58.59]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LHW00DFMGY79OF0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:42:08 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:42:11 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Juanma Barranquero Message-id: <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Juanma Barranquero > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:20:51 +0100 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Dani Moncayo , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not something that should be > > removed. > > Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for > compatibility with older versions of Emacs". Actually, it's for compatibility with older versions of _Windows_, and, more importantly, for helping users migrate from DOS (which simply doesn't allow file names that begin with a period). That migration is all over by now; whoever still uses DOS will never go to Windows on the same machine. So it's time to deprecate that old feature, which makes documentation harder and Emacs operation trickier. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 11:40:49 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 16:40:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py5OS-0007mJ-Tg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:40:49 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py5OQ-0007m7-TO for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:40:47 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2BGedLO026658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:40:40 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2BEUMBv030161; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:40:38 GMT Received: from abhmt005.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1130506401299861603; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:40:03 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:40:03 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , "'Juanma Barranquero'" References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:40:02 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcvgAwL/5fnHadapSZ666HF4NbLgAwABgbqQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4D7A5087.0098,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > > And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not > > > something that should be removed. > > > > Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for > > compatibility with older versions of Emacs". > > Actually, it's for compatibility with older versions of _Windows_, So there is a doc bug, anyway. > and, more importantly, for helping users migrate from DOS (which > simply doesn't allow file names that begin with a period). That > migration is all over by now; whoever still uses DOS will never go to > Windows on the same machine. So it's time to deprecate that old > feature, which makes documentation harder and Emacs operation > trickier. That was the reason for _introducing_ support for `_emacs'. It does not at all follow that when that reason is no longer pertinent we should _deprecate_ support for `_emacs'. It is very common in many types of evolution that an entity comes into being for one reason but becomes co-opted and kept for other reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology) IMO `_emacs' is just as good a default name as `.emacs', if not better. One could just as well argue that `.emacs' should be desupported. Certainly `.emacs' has the special property on some OS's that it is a hidden file. That special property can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. And it is a platform-specific special property. And just creating `.emacs' on some platforms (e.g. Windows) invariably prompts user questions - how to do so is a FAQ, even if the answer is simple. `_emacs' has no such special property on any platform AFAIK. Similarly, that can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. Just one user's opinion: Keep support for `_emacs' as a default init-file name; and extend it to any platforms where it is not already supported. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:00:32 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:00:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py5hY-0008Dm-Gx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:00:32 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py5hV-0008DY-TH for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:00:31 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LHW00F00KK8B600@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:00:23 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.58.59]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LHW00F3KKKLB400@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:00:23 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:00:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:40:02 -0800 > > > > > And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not > > > > something that should be removed. > > > > > > Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for > > > compatibility with older versions of Emacs". > > > > Actually, it's for compatibility with older versions of _Windows_, > > So there is a doc bug, anyway. ??? Where? The doc doesn't say anything different. > That was the reason for _introducing_ support for `_emacs'. It does not at all > follow that when that reason is no longer pertinent we should _deprecate_ > support for `_emacs'. It does, if there are no other reasons to keep it. > IMO `_emacs' is just as good a default name as `.emacs', if not better. One > could just as well argue that `.emacs' should be desupported. One could argue that, but why would one want to, unless one wanted to get silly. > Certainly `.emacs' has the special property on some OS's that it is a hidden > file. `.emacs' is not a hidden file on any platform that I know of. `ls' does not show files that start with a period, but that's a "feature" of that application, those files are not otherwise special in any way. There's no hidden attribute on it, just because its name starts with a period. > `_emacs' has no such special property on any platform AFAIK. Similarly, that > can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. Emacs is about uniformity of user experience on all platforms, and about living up to user expectations on all platforms. `_emacs' is a deviation from that uniformity. It was introduced out of necessity (and on DOS, it still is a necessity). But now that the necessity is gone, it's time to correct this deviation. > Just one user's opinion: Keep support for `_emacs' as a default init-file name; > and extend it to any platforms where it is not already supported. Sorry, but the converse decision was made a long time ago. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:35:05 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:35:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Ez-00014j-Ft for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:35:05 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Ew-00014F-VP for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:35:04 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2BHYsvU020037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:34:56 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2BEOu6H004680; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:34:54 GMT Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1079587101299864892; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:34:52 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:34:52 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:34:51 -0800 Message-ID: <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcvgDdHYBFvVGpq/Q4+WLCQQpl3vYQAACMfA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4D7A5D3E.009A,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > > > Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for > > > > compatibility with older versions of Emacs". > > > > > > Actually, it's for compatibility with older versions of _Windows_, > > > > So there is a doc bug, anyway. > > ??? Where? The doc doesn't say anything different. Juanma quoted a phrase that says that this is for compatibility with older _Emacs_ versions. _You_ corrected him. If the passage quoted is in fact in the doc (Juanma said "according to the docs"), and if your correction of that passage is valid, then your correction applies equally well to the quoted doc. > > That was the reason for _introducing_ support for `_emacs'. > > It does not at all follow that when that reason is no longer > > pertinent we should _deprecate_ support for `_emacs'. > > It does, if there are no other reasons to keep it. I gave reasons. BTW, what are the reasons for keeping `.emacs'? "If there are no reasons to keep it" then... (But I personally have no quibble with supporting `.emacs' also.) > > IMO `_emacs' is just as good a default name as `.emacs', if > > not better. One could just as well argue that `.emacs' > > should be desupported. > > One could argue that, but why would one want to, unless one wanted to > get silly. It is just as silly to argue that `_emacs' should be desupported. That's the point. > > Certainly `.emacs' has the special property on some OS's > > that it is a hidden file. > > `.emacs' is not a hidden file on any platform that I know of. `ls' > does not show files that start with a period, Exactly what I meant. That is a special treatment for files that begin with `.' on certain platforms. Google "dot file" and you will soon see... Quoting Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Configuration_file): On UNIX variants dot files remain "hidden" from listing by default. On Mac OS X these files are sometimes called "hidden files" although other mechanisms exist on Mac OS X to hide a file from view in various tools. The Explorer interface of Microsoft Windows XP does not allow the user to rename a file with an initial '.' though it does allow access to such files, and Windows' Notepad program does allow files to be saved with such names. Where Unix programs that use dotfiles are ported to Windows, they are sometimes modified to accept some other naming convention; for example, GNU Emacs permits its configuration file to be named _emacs instead of .emacs. Beyond `ls'... File names with base part and extension are common across platforms. File names with only a base part (no extension) are also common across platforms. But file names that consist of only a `.' followed by an extension are not so common across platforms. > > `_emacs' has no such special property on any platform > > AFAIK. Similarly, that can be both an advantage and a > > disadvantage. > > Emacs is about uniformity of user experience on all platforms, and > about living up to user expectations on all platforms. `_emacs' is a > deviation from that uniformity. On the contrary. `_emacs' behaves similarly across platforms. `.emacs' does not, as you confirmed wrt `ls'. > It was introduced out of necessity (and on DOS, it still is a > necessity). But now that the necessity is gone, it's time to > correct this deviation. There is no deviation, and nothing to correct. It does not follow at all that because the reason for its _introduction_ is no longer relevant a feature should be removed. That's not logical. It does not matter why it was introduced. What matters is whether it is a useful feature. `_emacs' is useful now, as before, precisely because its behavior is platform-independent. (And it is generally tools-independent - it's quite possible that some tools barf or misbehave with a file name that is only `.' followed by an extension.) > > Just one user's opinion: Keep support for `_emacs' as a > > default init-file name; and extend it to any platforms > > where it is not already supported. > > Sorry, but the converse decision was made a long time ago. Too bad. Wonder what the _logic_ was behind that... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:43:14 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:43:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Mr-0001GU-TM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:43:14 -0500 Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com ([74.125.83.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Mp-0001GH-Tk for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:43:12 -0500 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so1091931gwb.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:43:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xRjieaX8qelms/qZu0SyggT+YVItBhDJjNb38c8/q7Y=; b=luWjsr1XcHcyK1XZJezHgUjHbzgvwDWsQf584UEhCFYpAur+Zg+WQKVAhQVDWGmwHh 8otfGyhK4KiN0e9KLF2q1Vb5U8jALKGFmjcK8ygZNwMlBwlbkkrX9bTOiNBZhB+KvfQt driLs4+u5cJESjvi7Cd8qSoy7KOi/DChyaM3I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dFZhkPvxulXa/H3md4dzzmy04J/fspTcIpAP3kdEmjdoQrSqfJ7zwvQuROUxud07og jKMtTu4cLxnfKzCH1YOEgxGS7APknH8uLoS3pSxAkMgX2neJ1qqVMMpjZuiHoZnHrMbf EATOvRb7QJQA9XxjGYA4AtLTKtUVdUg5eIpCk= Received: by 10.236.120.45 with SMTP id o33mr2869795yhh.53.1299865386098; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:43:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:42:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:42:26 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 18:34, Drew Adams wrote: > If the passage quoted is in fact in the doc (Juanma said "according to th= e > docs"), When I quote, I quote :-) But... the passage I quoted is the footnote in the Emacs manual page "G.5 HOME and Startup Directories on MS-Windows", and the footnote does not talk about _emacs, but about checking C:\ for .emacs. Both things are related, but perhaps the way I brought up the quote was misleading. Sorry. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:50:21 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:50:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Tk-0001Qb-4D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:50:20 -0500 Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com ([209.85.161.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Ti-0001QN-JP for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:50:18 -0500 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so244158gxk.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jAEyyVU5ac5xCp8QWWU7pNbJ+12GiEaF9ovibmXOF+w=; b=DvKt0THIysutua+Jlwkehv7fzUkuP8AYeHVZ/xuoF2tXxBZDPlnKQzek0zRB/MMCsg tjzMqFPwXvGI7QXcTM/D48dtGQ/+yd17VPDCKtlMSdPt1Dq6UZUxg6Yd5n27/X/k61HW ooQ/QSIvCGr9dVeU9Cn1NrzTc5GZQbzJXzdRg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uXOe6iJibKTPlzodaeLqKUxf4dYAnQNvfGk9meebIzBNXAqqqCayJsPoxESJiEadQQ Mx2k5s0vW005cBsr+jW11j/V4oQfpycz4RT5N2Ep3URgnjtfy5YiE8OzbSLmDD7QlYnH mbefre2K6aUMk87OZGWUvW/gLnXu+jYOCgdmw= Received: by 10.150.193.10 with SMTP id q10mr2972233ybf.413.1299865813098; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:49:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:49:33 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 18:34, Drew Adams wrote: > It is just as silly to argue that `_emacs' should be desupported. > That's the point. I disagree. > On the contrary. =C2=A0`_emacs' behaves similarly across platforms. No, it doesn't, because non-DOS, non-Windows Emacsen do not load _emacs. Yes, you're talking of `ls' and/or `dir', but the point is that you're arguing in favor of keeping an old compatibility feature by *extending* it, making detection of [._]emacs(.elc?)? / init.el (and, more important, explaining how that detection is done) no less complex on Windows/DOS, and more complex on POSIX environments. For a net gain of... what? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:53:16 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:53:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6Wa-0001Ul-4t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:53:16 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6WX-0001UZ-C1 for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:53:13 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2BHr5IZ029679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:53:07 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2BGQrHY016539; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:53:04 GMT Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1079645941299865879; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:51:19 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:51:19 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:51:18 -0800 Message-ID: <8D2607441E0E4BC791E31A448C68FD4B@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcvgAPSwOVDp0ClkT1Sft6BKwChncwAE71qQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4D7A6181.0182,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Dani Moncayo' X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > Too bad. =A0$HOME as c:\ should not be treated differently=20 > > from other dirs as $HOME. >=20 > It isn't, if you set HOME to C:\.=20 I misunderstood from the thread that if you set HOME to c:\ it will be = handled differently wrt the default init-file names that are considered. > Which you should, IMHO, if you want to use it as home. I agree. Implicit c:\ should be abandoned (deprecated). > > And _emacs is a longstanding, positive feature, not=20 > > something that should be removed. >=20 > Not according to the docs, which clearly say that it is "for > compatibility with older versions of Emacs". Sooner or later > it's time to go forward and abandon such cruft. My opinion differs from this (doc and your opinion). I think `_emacs' = is a fine name and should be supported, regardless of platform and regardless of = the history behind it. > > Just one opinion. >=20 > Same here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 12:59:54 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 17:59:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6cz-0001dG-Tb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:59:54 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py6co-0001cw-9h for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 12:59:52 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p2BHxZBX017847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:36 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p2BDW27w016157; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:34 GMT Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1130767021299866371; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:59:31 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:59:31 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:59:31 -0800 Message-ID: <87AEAC747666486CB6BF584A4D64C229@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcvgFMdtyTSer4VqStyY6WcEhb1gDAAAFIkQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Source-IP: acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4D7A6306.01CD,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii' , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > It is just as silly to argue that `_emacs' should be desupported. > > That's the point. >=20 > I disagree. >=20 > > On the contrary. =A0`_emacs' behaves similarly across platforms. >=20 > No, it doesn't, because non-DOS, non-Windows Emacsen do not=20 > load _emacs. It behaves similarly as a _file_ - that's what I meant. Most platforms = do not treat `_emacs' specially because of its _file name_. Many platforms do = treat `.emacs' specially because of its _file name_. My point was that `_emacs' _should_ be handled by Emacs as a default = init-file name on all platforms, just as it is handled that way on Windows. Why? = Because it's a good, simple name that is not treated specially by different = platforms. > Yes, you're talking of `ls' and/or `dir', but the point is that you're > arguing in favor of keeping an old compatibility feature by > *extending* it, making detection of [._]emacs(.elc?)? / init.el (and, > more important, explaining how that detection is done) no less complex > on Windows/DOS, and more complex on POSIX environments. For a net gain > of... what? Shouldn't be complex. The gain is simplicity: `_emacs' is simpler than `.emacs' because it is = not a name that is handled specially on various platforms. I'd say keep `.emacs' handling too, so that users on UNIX or GNU/Linux = can, if they want, take advantage of the special treatment of dot files. But allow `_emacs' also as a default init-file name. Anyway, as Eli has said, this is all moot - it has already been decided. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 14:28:46 2011 Received: (at 8220-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2011 19:28:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py80z-0003ZY-QC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:28:46 -0500 Received: from mail-gw0-f44.google.com ([74.125.83.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Py80w-0003ZL-Ob for 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:28:43 -0500 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20so1128228gwb.3 for <8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:28:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5k5/3RbIrlmunX/NBN9iGB/JNn3MIrlPj0G5Sa+PF58=; b=rI83nBrbynSNCl1o+klTgFr08VoW/BLd0VShaEz1PtLLuVLXFLv8Qr75cMX8wTaFXN nAlbyiVVcDB45mhCZDbH7yvmXZGCoPqJvutl03YE+FHADEJt4Y+F5DJ3m9By2EVnQMIL uPpCCcA6H2oua7ZyIjF+moZ4nE/3CqY+9zkFY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Rl9MJLQtjrHeuVykX+soPAS1X+ggtiK0oSNDG12+TkymNhGRCirnZfPtSD4WETQd4F DO9sNFBzxixjiUumUF8OVfxJ4gxIwQipQ0qnYhXOIoDN/znkstkaKOsVoMS87GOJUPpr CWh0ftGYlCF9tfl2N/b/346/K3AOJbgAni1/U= Received: by 10.150.132.3 with SMTP id f3mr3121922ybd.242.1299871717268; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:28:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.147.137.2 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:27:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87AEAC747666486CB6BF584A4D64C229@us.oracle.com> References: <4D79B973.6000508@gnu.org> <83wrk5uci6.fsf@gnu.org> <2F566320DEEC430AA37796987955C7AB@us.oracle.com> <83mxl1u0j0.fsf@gnu.org> <83fwqttwwl.fsf@gnu.org> <58E597E1F75046F0A933743F0D267A41@us.oracle.com> <87AEAC747666486CB6BF584A4D64C229@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:27:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#8220: 24.0.50; (On Windows XP) "c:\_emacs" isn't found during startup To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 8220-done Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 8220-done@debbugs.gnu.org, dmoncayo@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 18:59, Drew Adams wrote: > It behaves similarly as a _file_ - that's what I meant. Yes, I know. I said as much in the next paragraph. > Most platforms do not > treat `_emacs' specially because of its _file name_. =C2=A0Many platforms= do treat > `.emacs' specially because of its _file name_. That's true, but that does not concern Emacs. For users of POSIX systems, that treatment is expected and welcome; for Windows it is not treated specially (other than the difficulty of creating it on older Windows), and users do expect that too. It's specialness is not a problem for anyone. > Why? =C2=A0Because > it's a good, simple name that is not treated specially by different platf= orms. I don't see why is that a plus. On a POSIX system, I would expect my Emacs configuration file to be hidden, as I would expect it from the configuration files of most other applications. Having _emacs around on Ubuntu, for example, would be ugly IMHO; I very much doubt I would chose to use _emacs in preference to .emacs. > Shouldn't be complex. Meaning what? I'm not talking about complexity from a OS point of view, but Emacs'. And this very bug report thread is a witness to the fact that it is, in fact, complex. > The gain is simplicity: `_emacs' is simpler than `.emacs' because it is n= ot a > name that is handled specially on various platforms. You're conflating two things, and I disagree on both. First, that it is simpler. Apparently you think it is simpler for POSIX users to adapt to Windows ways (at least, with respect to application's configuration files) and I don't agree. Second, what I'm talking about, when I say "more complex", is explaining to the user how it works. If we were to *remove* .emacs and init.el and keep just _emacs (let's forget X vs X.el vs. X.elc issues here) it would be simpler; but as that is not possible, your proposed change adds complexity for POSIX users. Removing _emacs brings less complexity for Windows users, without adding it for anyone else. > Anyway, as Eli has said, this is all moot - it has already been decided. Thanks god :-) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From unknown Mon Jun 23 16:46:01 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator