From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 04 18:18:21 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Feb 2011 23:18:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlUuy-0000mM-H8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:18:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlUuw-0000m9-Io for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:18:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PlV3B-0003G7-CO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:26:50 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:58526) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PlV3B-0003G3-8n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:26:49 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=33490 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PlV39-0008I3-NQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:26:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PlV37-0003DX-Pe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:26:47 -0500 Received: from exprod7ob107.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.166]:51906) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PlV37-0003DR-Dd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:26:45 -0500 Received: from source ([74.125.82.182]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob107.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTUyLMl+sE7V9NsI5ueqjiPlQlt53sCeN@postini.com; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:26:44 PST Received: by wyf19 with SMTP id 19so2835227wyf.27 for ; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.141.16 with SMTP id f16mr11199452wej.80.1296861999982; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from canta (87-194-87-241.bethere.co.uk [87.194.87.241]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r6sm694238weq.44.2011.02.04.15.26.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:26:38 -0800 (PST) From: Reuben Thomas To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 23.2.91; Remove unwise advice from manual Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 23:26:37 +0000 Message-ID: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Received-From: 64.18.2.166 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 199.232.76.165 X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) In =E2=80=9CHooks for Loading=E2=80=9D the manual says: But it is OK to use `eval-after-load' in your personal customizations if you don't feel that they must meet the design standards for programs meant for wider use. This sort of advice tends to be unwise to give, because people write code for their own use, then later distribute it and forget to clean it up. In any case, the solutions in this case, as explained in the previous paragraph: Normally, well-designed Lisp programs should not use `eval-after-load'. If you need to examine and set the variables defined in another library (those meant for outside use), you can do it immediately--there is no need to wait until the library is loaded. If you need to call functions defined by that library, you should load the library, preferably with `require' (*note Named Features::). are easier to write than the bad code. Hence, I suggest the offending paragraph (the first one I quoted above) be removed. In GNU Emacs 23.2.91.4 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.22.0) of 2011-01-13 on canta Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10900000 Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Info Minor modes in effect: diff-auto-refine-mode: t shell-dirtrack-mode: t recentf-mode: t show-paren-mode: t savehist-mode: t minibuffer-electric-default-mode: t iswitchb-mode: t icomplete-mode: t global-whitespace-mode: t global-auto-revert-mode: t desktop-save-mode: t yas/global-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t column-number-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent input: C-n C-n C-n C-n C-p C-p C-f C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-s ; ; ; C-a C-s c u s t o m =20 o m C-s C-s C-a C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p=20 C-p C-p C-p C-p C-p C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n=20 C-n C-n C-SPC C-n C-n C-n C-w M-x r e p o r t - e m=20 a c s - b u g Recent messages: Mark set Quit Type "q" to restore this window. 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misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev loaddefs button minibuffer faces cus-face files text-properties overlay md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind system-font-setting font-render-setting gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 04 18:49:01 2011 Received: (at 7986) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Feb 2011 23:49:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlVOf-0001T2-EW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:49:01 -0500 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlVOd-0001Sn-Ow for 7986@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:49:00 -0500 Received: by eyd10 with SMTP id 10so1685383eyd.3 for <7986@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:57:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EHLagwsfKRD3VNvjPoHvGXLvg2HlEln0QrW/tX1WBkw=; b=PzhbB4K+K8hnD6pRVrVmJbvMYdySyUaWQyPJVjms792ZLPyFfpqYiT0RxcETFJPtXt 71YmZ5pvLXEGQH3AOFh2HNTISaoPh6x3nYWQCuqNy+28Ecy9+nzuhghXImnPVwdHobat mLHOLKaWXvuhn+0OcwDpnJIdmqGkbqyUl+7mg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bJbbfr49j202fVd20ovPcVSsHMs80e/vxcDKtYgveqWIQY7logU1JE9p3WqtecjJdE 4OLaj47+5aGgM3Nee1Qx0hdMaMY+XQB15DbVidM67O17YmW+CuiX0tSTHo8yuwriCwsz fhp5bs53b1qjcJStXA0YCBmnuNHTi+fEc0S+Q= Received: by 10.213.29.77 with SMTP id p13mr3523112ebc.2.1296863851287; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:57:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.13.20 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:57:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> References: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 00:57:11 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#7986: 23.2.91; Remove unwise advice from manual To: Reuben Thomas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7986 Cc: 7986@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Reuben Thomas wrote: > > =C2=A0 Normally, well-designed Lisp programs should not use > `eval-after-load'. =C2=A0If you need to examine and set the variables > defined in another library (those meant for outside use), you can do it > immediately--there is no need to wait until the library is loaded. =C2=A0= If > you need to call functions defined by that library, you should load the > library, preferably with `require' (*note Named Features::). You can't do that. Just imagine you write a library with one single purpose: doing something after another library is loaded. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 04 18:51:32 2011 Received: (at 7986) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Feb 2011 23:51:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlVR6-0001Wa-ML for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:51:32 -0500 Received: from exprod7og120.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.18]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PlVR4-0001WN-TO for 7986@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 18:51:32 -0500 Received: from source ([209.85.214.181]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob120.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTUyTAPPbcEV/zGQhS8y7lGWRk8pjXoll@postini.com; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:00:08 PST Received: by iwn3 with SMTP id 3so2872977iwn.12 for <7986@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:00:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.157.205 with SMTP id c13mr13789184ibx.103.1296863999909; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 15:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.19.73 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:59:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 23:59:59 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#7986: 23.2.91; Remove unwise advice from manual From: Reuben Thomas To: Lennart Borgman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7986 Cc: 7986@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) On 4 February 2011 23:57, Lennart Borgman wrote= : > On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Reuben Thomas wrote: >> >> =A0 Normally, well-designed Lisp programs should not use >> `eval-after-load'. =A0If you need to examine and set the variables >> defined in another library (those meant for outside use), you can do it >> immediately--there is no need to wait until the library is loaded. =A0If >> you need to call functions defined by that library, you should load the >> library, preferably with `require' (*note Named Features::). > > You can't do that. Just imagine you write a library with one single > purpose: doing something after another library is loaded. I don't think that is at odds with the advice "Normally, well-designed Lisp programs should not use `eval-after-load'." But if it is, then the manual should be corrected. However, that does not affect my suggestion that the advice about writing code for "personal customizations" be removed. --=20 http://rrt.sc3d.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 08 19:19:30 2011 Received: (at 7986) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2011 00:19:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PmxmM-0005D2-CZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:19:30 -0500 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.147]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PmxmL-0005Co-5q for 7986@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:19:29 -0500 Received: from furball (dhcp128036014143.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.143]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p190SBY0021575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:28:11 -0500 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B5961602B5; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:28:11 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: Reuben Thomas Subject: Re: bug#7986: 23.2.91; Remove unwise advice from manual References: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:28:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: <878vxv1ivm.fsf@sc3d.org> (Reuben Thomas's message of "Fri, 04 Feb 2011 23:26:37 +0000") Message-ID: <87y65qyrtw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.147 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7986 Cc: 7986@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Reuben Thomas writes: > But it is OK to use `eval-after-load' in your personal > customizations if you don't feel that they must meet the design > standards for programs meant for wider use. > > This sort of advice tends to be unwise to give, because people write > code for their own use, then later distribute it and forget to clean it > up. Fair enough. Removed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 08 19:19:44 2011 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2011 00:19:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PmxmZ-0005DP-Oc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:19:43 -0500 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.146]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PmxmX-0005DE-VG for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:19:42 -0500 Received: from furball (dhcp128036014143.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.143]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p190SOE2010043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:28:24 -0500 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3B35D1602B5; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:28:24 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 7986 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:28:24 -0500 Message-ID: <87wrlaoxuf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.146 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) close 7986 thanks From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:15:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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