From unknown Fri Sep 19 22:29:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#79470: [PATCH] backward-sentence: Fix inaccuracy in manual's description Resent-From: ERIC Frederickson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 04:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 79470 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: 79470@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.17582554339386 (code B ref -1); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 04:18:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 04:17:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35903 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzSYa-0002RJ-VO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:17:13 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:39530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzSYX-0002Qw-3f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:17:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzSYR-0000Dx-9z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:17:03 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzSY1-0007El-2X for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:17:03 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4b61161dd37so10801841cf.3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 21:16:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1758255395; x=1758860195; darn=gnu.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Bm94oKJdo5/9aWURAx9Sfp83zmffGSHzRrKgxUW+TMI=; b=JSroW45cAIrRaoZU6wqZWn1c5VJ8rETu8/uFgu/tzu2zlmbzbyK9Nx4xbGUUUGdIDo QlNHZtC05OfKNE71QMy0rUe3HlvKLa5Bt4rb1+NBA9wymc4ylHpmEtAaHlCYRYvigYbl 2A7A9l/gyiTLsIFLaeIEAKsWG3VI2xZxnJtBrpMAHSYJ/Ev6TXjjhnD8IRSqw6Gp2uzO NQg6JDYmT7pger/pHTI2gC1UrvtUQrFOkVf5ZTxK1bjX8BxnaZhFKG+Kfq6nrNllEq/g a4NuHfN+WPrp4B9TfgUMnS/Tp5uzSfGKURaKvhsEpDyzlV2wMtr9Eh0sqpEplJUZtdok XtgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1758255395; x=1758860195; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Bm94oKJdo5/9aWURAx9Sfp83zmffGSHzRrKgxUW+TMI=; b=dEA8jrWrXnjQAUJdFljySPjHAZ2wcvTeKOLZcHwUT3TJoZzRCFZ1RRtq0E2CjI9RYo 0n31DMqgL0o2a97uj0PYLf5HliHs1SQbAJ+RNVIcR9TXbZEW2CqsIermt9SlZf6/1qXI LBXpdsFCNo6yNuYNv14JjthvGBMh+3odPFoUQWiRNxKqZgeQFsU17l8xBZk7NQp7DNd8 0I8Q6/AJPsSG6IyBYCeM7wIzw6QL9vrJ4KvNmj0B1m0u8AhDddaIfTa+3puXT2jREbrj PorC8G7hu0ZNHtrP7wZd0pXX2tX4W8HFqUWRCFSXwW9h+GV8ojC54H91zthXI44qA+og y0Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywk7tOLQjBPNLaTJHMkyOaG11CcwXsbkpDLBiQka9wlu8j3M/LX YGTg9HZOtSUBt+IXOnJ3T0DYq9H+ggaVT97z8Js4dv8qHTCiu4X43d1Flij6k7ZFlE2eIl7Ca/i iFW32APOWa32ytZPb1N5NJsBMRDI+lkz4QTEC X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct/k4vm6/DRCD5sIuCVKNZXZfnlUAijy3saZYL5XlU5rAXqGRCVylZyZhEGCcC DPCrAgEz8qZNHKOWxTzYixoIrZwtapTL/y2ip5NP6ATYMhsI2vt8XIMFRNRvU2Pt+PzlRn1sGac t2Q22juhNXXBctrT5GTcXr1LMCBr1TuD59N/0Ju1KVub74IvJzaSU0sHYn6ZXDOyb71c+i0O4gL l1mIKuPXQCArioG4eVSJt+vXTsThp85arbojZdG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFi4AJUwg4jkW0ThlSz8em2VQyaLWl6thm3aJ9u9bT+jsm0EJkNPhcg7WKhIfXpDByPofH6PY3wZbcWeIb+gp0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:8e:b0:4c0:5e82:86d3 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4c06e3fa6f6mr17258811cf.1.1758255395092; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: ERIC Frederickson Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:16:23 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWB17yICRkVaFvXt590sDh4-hN06-BKR2ksT73vJS_JhkKarYZ8m7abSC4g Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000403727063f1fbc67" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a; envelope-from=ericfrederickson68@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x82a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hello everyone, The patch attached to this message corrects a small inaccuracy in the description of the 'backward-sentence' command in doc/emacs/text.texi (Sentences). When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual states that this command leaves point "just before the first character of the sentence". This is incorrect, as 'backward-sentence' actua [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (ericfrederickson68[at]gmail.com) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (ericfrederickson68[at]gmail.com) 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) --000000000000403727063f1fbc67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello everyone, The patch attached to this message corrects a small inaccuracy in the description of the 'backward-sentence' command in doc/emacs/text.texi (Sentences). When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual states that this command leaves point "just before the first character of the sentence". This is incorrect, as 'backward-sentence' actually leaves point _on_ the first character of the sentence. When I first saw this, I thought I had to be missing something, but after reading through adjacent docs to make sure I had the right interpretation of point being "on" a character vs "before"/"after" it, and then multi-checking that I wasn't simply misreading the manual, I came to the conclusion that patching this description to use the word "on" instead of the words "just before" would be worthwhile. ^L Also: I hope that I'm not cluttering the mailing list with too many small patches sent close together. I've happened to have a good deal of free time this week and have been enjoying trying to make some improvements to my favorite program. If anything I've been doing lately has been causing too much noise for anyone, please do let me know what kind of conduct is best appreciated around here, and I'll do my best to align with that. Thank you for your time, -- Eric Frederickson --000000000000403727063f1fbc67 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="0001-backward-sentence-doc-fix.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-backward-sentence-doc-fix.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: X-Attachment-Id: f_mfqboqev0 RnJvbSA5MThlOWIwYjk3YzcxYjg3NzEyNjM0ZGIxNDIwMTYyZjgzZjUxMGExIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBFcmljIEZyZWRlcmlja3NvbiA8ZXJpY2ZyZWRlcmlja3NvbjY4 QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4KRGF0ZTogVGh1LCAxOCBTZXAgMjAyNSAxNjoyOTowNyAtMDUwMApTdWJqZWN0 OiBbUEFUQ0hdIDsgKiBkb2MvZW1hY3MvdGV4dC50ZXhpIChTZW50ZW5jZXMpOiBDb3JyZWN0IGEg c21hbGwKIGluYWNjdXJhY3kuCgpXaGVuIGRlc2NyaWJpbmcgdGhlIGJlaGF2aW9yIG9mICdiYWNr d2FyZC1zZW50ZW5jZScsIHRoZSBtYW51YWwgc3RhdGVzCnRoYXQgdGhpcyBjb21tYW5kIGxlYXZl cyBwb2ludCAianVzdCBiZWZvcmUgdGhlIGZpcnN0IGNoYXJhY3RlciBvZiB0aGUKc2VudGVuY2Ui LiAgVGhpcyBpcyBpbmNvcnJlY3QsIGFzICdiYWNrd2FyZC1zZW50ZW5jZScgYWN0dWFsbHkgbGVh dmVzCnBvaW50IG9uIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgb2YgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlLgoKRml4IHRo aXMgc21hbGwgaW5hY2N1cmFjeSBieSByZXBsYWNpbmcgdGhlIHdvcmRzICJqdXN0IGJlZm9yZSIg d2l0aAp0aGUgd29yZCAib24iLgoKQ29weXJpZ2h0LXBhcGVyd29yay1leGVtcHQ6IHllcwotLS0K IGRvYy9lbWFjcy90ZXh0LnRleGkgfCA0ICsrLS0KIDEgZmlsZSBjaGFuZ2VkLCAyIGluc2VydGlv bnMoKyksIDIgZGVsZXRpb25zKC0pCgpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL3RleHQudGV4aSBi L2RvYy9lbWFjcy90ZXh0LnRleGkKaW5kZXggZDhhN2UwZmMyNWUuLmQ3MDNkNGU5OTdhIDEwMDY0 NAotLS0gYS9kb2MvZW1hY3MvdGV4dC50ZXhpCisrKyBiL2RvYy9lbWFjcy90ZXh0LnRleGkKQEAg LTIwMCw4ICsyMDAsOCBAQCBzZW50ZW5jZSwgcmVzcGVjdGl2ZWx5LiAgVGhlaXIgYmluZGluZ3Mg d2VyZSBjaG9zZW4gdG8gcmVzZW1ibGUKIGxpbmUuICBVbmxpa2UgdGhlbSwgQGtiZHtNLWF9IGFu ZCBAa2Jke00tZX0gbW92ZSBvdmVyIHN1Y2Nlc3NpdmUKIHNlbnRlbmNlcyBpZiByZXBlYXRlZC4K IAotICBNb3ZpbmcgYmFja3dhcmQgb3ZlciBhIHNlbnRlbmNlIHBsYWNlcyBwb2ludCBqdXN0IGJl Zm9yZSB0aGUgZmlyc3QKLWNoYXJhY3RlciBvZiB0aGUgc2VudGVuY2U7IG1vdmluZyBmb3J3YXJk IHBsYWNlcyBwb2ludCByaWdodCBhZnRlciB0aGUKKyAgTW92aW5nIGJhY2t3YXJkIG92ZXIgYSBz ZW50ZW5jZSBwbGFjZXMgcG9pbnQgb24gdGhlIGZpcnN0IGNoYXJhY3Rlcgorb2YgdGhlIHNlbnRl bmNlOyBtb3ZpbmcgZm9yd2FyZCBwbGFjZXMgcG9pbnQgcmlnaHQgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlCiBwdW5jdHVh dGlvbiB0aGF0IGVuZHMgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlLiAgTmVpdGhlciBvbmUgbW92ZXMgb3ZlciB0aGUK IHdoaXRlc3BhY2UgYXQgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlIGJvdW5kYXJ5LgogCi0tIAoyLjUwLjEuOTY3Lmcy MTUwMzNiM2FjCgo= --000000000000403727063f1fbc67-- From unknown Fri Sep 19 22:29:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#79470: [PATCH] backward-sentence: Fix inaccuracy in manual's description Resent-From: Manuel Giraud Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 05:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 79470 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: ERIC Frederickson Cc: 79470@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 79470-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B79470.175826100510299 (code B ref 79470); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 05:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 79470) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 05:50:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36299 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzU0S-0002fn-H8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:50:05 -0400 Received: from ledu-giraud.fr ([51.159.28.247]:43296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzU0P-0002e1-Ir for 79470@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:50:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=simple/simple; s=ed25519; bh=hvLCc75b 4fOmdnvVylvqmTFOWrzJtK5EL8cnWWL5cbw=; h=date:references:in-reply-to: subject:cc:to:from; d=ledu-giraud.fr; b=mHT+NjEhPxfmsvefYwN4CFj9mIIzCu zjPPPIBWY/UW++xZPSsH1M3+8GiBGv/fJLjwUkb2mvycANq8sV9cH8DQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; s=rsa; bh=hvLCc75b4fOmdnvV ylvqmTFOWrzJtK5EL8cnWWL5cbw=; h=date:references:in-reply-to:subject: cc:to:from; d=ledu-giraud.fr; b=J2gteL+bZjPKKuZXWWQh/In89Ksl0WY9bZkF2l 9Qtk41aIiXz4n+bdsP4EeZkm5YPYNlsq+iEBQDzdnuKLycd23Lb3+hz9m05eWf9nxJor/R 6z76yx1vKu6rMLksaQDAxknFRpVVDd1wz2w/PPxjUfSqMCAiBYtQeoHq6IKWOVuG9eH/1C +aNMeX27JnoX94PHDQmIHJNIPLvjKOqMbKK6wvfUHfi6CzUL7HFv/LayHLqezDD7RWl6km eJwQ09KadAp+l5c75EH2xuwKGm0/ZD6k9KmZkqBpo9SaPRBy1CER83xoveAo/wc7cbVkew ymq9jYBPKEF0gRcD3PrNa8Yw== Received: from computer ( [10.1.1.1]) by ledu-giraud.fr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 84cf440c (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 07:49:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Manuel Giraud In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 07:49:58 +0200 Message-ID: <87segjj8jd.fsf@ledu-giraud.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ERIC Frederickson writes: > Hello everyone, > > The patch attached to this message corrects a small inaccuracy in the > description of the 'backward-sentence' command in > doc/emacs/text.texi (Sentences). > > When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual states > that this command leaves point "just before the first character of the > sentence". This is incorrect, as 'backward-sentence' actually leaves > point _on_ the first character of the sentence. Hi Eric, I think that "just before" is also correct because the point of insertion *really is* just before the first character of the sentence. And IMO, in this regard, "just before" is more precise than "on the character". > When I first saw this, I thought I had to be missing something, but > after reading through adjacent docs to make sure I had the right > interpretation of point being "on" a character vs "before"/"after" it, > and then multi-checking that I wasn't simply misreading the manual, I > came to the conclusion that patching this description to use the word > "on" instead of the words "just before" would be worthwhile. Do you have example of such usage of "on"? -- Manuel Giraud From unknown Fri Sep 19 22:29:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#79470: [PATCH] backward-sentence: Fix inaccuracy in manual's description Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 06:15:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 79470 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: ERIC Frederickson Cc: 79470@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 79470-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B79470.175826247818120 (code B ref 79470); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 06:15:01 +0000 Received: (at 79470) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 06:14:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36392 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUOD-0004iC-RX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:14:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45688) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUOA-0004hp-NC for 79470@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:14:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUO4-0003bO-R7; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:14:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=vPFHUEqPTXPJVxxin1LfjG9U2WFBql/DorwSkV68hVs=; b=A5w/D8EU46aCY+n6Erpz +1FeTHUwopw7rgY7q2AFu2MN0TUeygntwtldn1JVOYJ50xOCJ2053I1D7f8R1xMv6FCuaLkH0ylcI dAgOpmLl365Diwp9CW9fOmMaG7Hvd+7glN5fTXms0danTRTVYdMJ1fRy8av0yKbK+nZrhNKgdxlk9 Tv3K6vcNl/VBkJsUlChvTFgvbutSSqeHKJRIpz+1/+DdBKy0aHhBD/fcAOuP0Fr1QQ7HFdloFzRV+ tuGpJsDQZkfDG7oONXtIY04Re62R3KX1AWVkpmI3K913rHiN9dCFPOEh5m/q8Acc0ITbwea4IzV1B Xc6S65XTAQF2KQ==; Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:14:25 +0300 Message-Id: <865xdfj7em.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from ERIC Frederickson on Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:16:23 -0500) References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: ERIC Frederickson > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:16:23 -0500 > > The patch attached to this message corrects a small inaccuracy in the > description of the 'backward-sentence' command in > doc/emacs/text.texi (Sentences). > > When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual states > that this command leaves point "just before the first character of the > sentence". This is incorrect, as 'backward-sentence' actually leaves > point _on_ the first character of the sentence. In Emacs, point cannot be _on_ a character, it is always _between_ two characters. The Emacs user manual says: By default, the cursor in the selected window is drawn as a solid block and appears to be _on_ a character, but you should think of point as _between_ two characters; it is situated _before_ the character under the cursor. For example, if your text looks like ‘frob’ with the cursor over the ‘b’, then point is between the ‘o’ and the ‘b’. If you insert the character ‘!’ at that position, the result is ‘fro!b’, with point between the ‘!’ and the ‘b’. Thus, the cursor remains over the ‘b’, as before. So you should understand the "before the first character" part of what the manual says in this context. So I don't think what the manual says is inaccurate. > Also: I hope that I'm not cluttering the mailing list with too many > small patches sent close together. I've happened to have a good deal > of free time this week and have been enjoying trying to make some > improvements to my favorite program. If anything I've been doing > lately has been causing too much noise for anyone, please do let me > know what kind of conduct is best appreciated around here, and I'll do > my best to align with that. No problems here, feel free to submit any issue you think is worthy of discussing. From unknown Fri Sep 19 22:29:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#79470: [PATCH] backward-sentence: Fix inaccuracy in manual's description Resent-From: ERIC Frederickson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 79470 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Manuel Giraud Cc: 79470@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 79470-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B79470.175830562215245 (code B ref 79470); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 79470) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 18:13:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41004 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfc5-0003xp-IC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:13:41 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]:56407) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfc2-0003xZ-1c for 79470@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:13:38 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-826fe3b3e2bso256367685a.0 for <79470@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1758305611; x=1758910411; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=72DLwKQGy3QI8Fe35IJTal2EPuZpBY/ZTIHDU6wgb50=; b=af37T8iLTm4E3827yFc2A7dftystnC+lHtAnwyp2wYgc25184RyYt5vfWt2byeAXZi 3rWkG8R6V4JNbFoOGGEbBJ1n1PhNy3ZcRnRRv/9PLwQoB8EMnSsUPg4FYEqmZdQvTKkN qwpeVPhERUZZoP7ytrsW7l8vS183Ps5f7l7XpL0hRCi6+6+3c6lrTNNo783Zv7tlabeU NGc/TF5uH3CwSiZAwxjSR81yFiFcUtzcq+0wuW2UjJn3qT1ZyaPXh2mXA2xtid5cpFJN VIDLr/MU/wy77ScbHFbyPW2m0T53t0op5nGL+NeU5u+7bF6lTkDpcDnxjM/y2qO8eVNf 6wcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1758305611; x=1758910411; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=72DLwKQGy3QI8Fe35IJTal2EPuZpBY/ZTIHDU6wgb50=; b=nnsRtpZRyWCJ6H6CEh6+G3sxyNGuoOMvfcJaSBN4vgxWFUswuVFjF81zafKLwMMEuG 9atcY5YxHKDDjprOeUqq1S8SQKzNQjgDrypHPqbWjlUZjNpb9iFviUvJdmV/MY2QnUVO 34axa1TZg4xy+z6tkk/tgSuY5SYMZIP7GV6sbOW86rJhKsYkD2GCAuS0Xu16XZX4ocro YbGcLZNBveaCRYNMEY32mxzpJK5fIqZ2u+p+5v4ijOzZQjmsDWBKRq/X8ahLA7J0eQ+I LXPhf/FZ7HpTf/dcDLj3aYNmzP1pXlJMVefdRGx8vDUDYdfRJ+Clz/6hoxgJZohaKCuV teqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxyv+8zjG4QrGakzvuBoN9GeAIeG9j1ODP78eqbUGxlDVKxjF9Z RK7h/zeW0SNHwqANtu5vXy3CoGt/LqsFwntArK9XTIFgzrbOHQsG85xh/vBPaIMRl5wZPfZe5Gq kekgF61pwy5b4ha+S3QzfqkvIrO2QacXhp5v0xnw= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsTeIefN0IOUoSDPgIxzu0qR8Wf5vaEwNmxf84BwRGbs4cz7ZkrQwq5d5j5Pzt zyGO/aZFrYWFwqkYYEXZKaT10bqxYfOnabgFoTxlCbSvZ10/4zbf96jlQIFeDDcENCK6jxboa8/ nzCHNgt/bGZDs3o+znwzSfKzleXqZQe1WHmttBqKMRFTDag/YAINcHDw84EgN/7DwHRbkRBayqj FGHZNeT25vwW6lbi5EqC1zEb2vYmN6KEpVpoCw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IETXdvZmehmcNeDRlJf6DabKjaKwp7WcAyULzViWCSguiUekb9WUGHdqk9vzek5GchYk6+867F9WMRPbS8ghkc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:454e:b0:83b:525d:b110 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-83bad7d1890mr428720885a.56.1758305611382; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:13:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87segjj8jd.fsf@ledu-giraud.fr> In-Reply-To: <87segjj8jd.fsf@ledu-giraud.fr> From: ERIC Frederickson Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 13:13:20 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWA76e5fY-3NlBXjn6GqWlpkr_P-z85PLg0O8qQBKhtOTFb7C-oAMOzLrlA Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Fri, Sep 19, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFAM Manuel Giraud wrote: >> When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual states >> that this command leaves point "just before the first character of the >> sentence". This is incorrect, as 'backward-sentence' actually leaves >> point _on_ the first character of the sentence. > Hi Eric, Hi Manuel, Thanks for your reply. > I think that "just before" is also correct because the point of > insertion *really is* just before the first character of the sentence. > And IMO, in this regard, "just before" is more precise than "on the > character". You are correct. I had been misunderstanding the term "point" to mean "cursor", and somehow did not see this mistake when exploring this (non-)issue. >> When I first saw this, I thought I had to be missing something, but >> after reading through adjacent docs to make sure I had the right >> interpretation of point being "on" a character vs "before"/"after" it, >> and then multi-checking that I wasn't simply misreading the manual, I >> came to the conclusion that patching this description to use the word >> "on" instead of the words "just before" would be worthwhile. > Do you have example of such usage of "on"? I didn't have any exact examples, but did have some pieces of "supporting evidence", which are now irrelevant as such, since I was reading them with the same misunderstanding as the manual text I was trying to fix. In case someone is interested though, one such piece comes from the Elisp manual's description of 're-search-backward' (which is used under the hood by 'backward-sentence'), which says that: "This function searches backward in the current buffer for a string of text that is matched by the regular expression REGEXP, leaving point at the beginning of the first text found." I had been interpreting the word "at" to be synonymous with "on", due to my aforementioned misunderstanding of point vs cursor. Sorry for the noise on this, -- Eric Frederickson From unknown Fri Sep 19 22:29:28 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#79470: [PATCH] backward-sentence: Fix inaccuracy in manual's description Resent-From: ERIC Frederickson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 79470 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 79470@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 79470-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B79470.175830605716616 (code B ref 79470); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 79470) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 18:20:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41020 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfj7-0004Jw-46 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:20:57 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]:58517) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfj4-0004Jc-6t for 79470@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:20:54 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-8173e8effa1so171314485a.0 for <79470@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:20:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1758306048; x=1758910848; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=g1rjIvrts+puZQ80vZV5B3AGDE+fZf31+dHfqC2PDsM=; b=cAVCy9Dx9/Pcw0Dz1R0cGeV/LBegk8bp67O6O8GJ8UKn1MAXxKgvpQr4qWO9UzzrAD 8QKpa4fWVqlH5EQj8NvgOhQmww86DJmAMrL3NBcfxqS4qTk8DjTK27/RSC2+qtc9vkS3 uQuQrnyD0ANw+sKH0mb61VShCgJNBAdHSJdGa7YcvCBy0OXTbl57G0ZAnWGE8x5z43ax Yrr2KgcUFJoBoYlXwusvPHC1AtJF95+ztnKUDqh4r57RkMeOsVEd8ng/MJt7Ey7rb3Ig /6FLnZ8JhMQYHFhjzERjCWC8jUiYECsI8Tkc5x72Ec03EZ+NfvoYfUj99QfP83N0EZhA pYeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1758306048; x=1758910848; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=g1rjIvrts+puZQ80vZV5B3AGDE+fZf31+dHfqC2PDsM=; b=r2Muwx8lU9grs+f+4WclMv6Eo6rLNC6k/u9VpXlVbKdd0pDyBZzIG5WQRkqM22RVzx MTcgcCdGx+fYbIsaiPtbc3QR2yNSv9brKd3hGbb6mNudicTdScrvkhBdFCdYNWY1mTtF dfQmBOxyiEudMavvxImPimQAuhj0HB0hLKVtjoYZA78hNf0yGV2Z90eJuevEVLteeMrY AYJgnQYoyYsLj3XPFJHn+F31xBz5a8JYa39PnsviMY8KuxCtLzkzxvqhznCmJSE2b7Hg 9kQr5ngKDn4R2XMEdyztTtofEcURuqGnFcheIdETxGXA601Xr8MSQ+8Bw0nPl3c5P2qC 5F3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxOKHmEluEuawruMLPALCw7aha495RKouKYo7w7bxnEn+doe4NY b3lyfXz2gcZtIOIpgdw5ZrBF1hzFGcMw1SqUVHwLEtjujKeDphfUgwmysoN0lC/OOw4zyNN6ePP Ow3Jm1PGXeE1RvM54NknsL0OqmFe8uIfPAcRrzX8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvD4nQw++dwOQ8/zVYyRDrDyCMtsQq2CgtwYGdy2cVDykmXCT6fOXyfyyd27ja TkfiS1raLLC42VhsMdp69d3ls6kkPKNAhd7zphpF9ordtnZhwb2HUKN6jwruFwa4ilgbpQg3uBL k8UrJINJKqhAsFpn6FX5cJIYMwHp2oP0FcLtkqGvOPMSqR9b8maAwW7qUL1X+/Ih65N8D6g0LYO WvcXvBhklgD5i0yH6qR7CMMbMAU9o5uLYztvbiicEUGYFIsrg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEDDbYO1kG/6YX2AV7HJTL//XhfQK5MMv0UBIHUaTZGtCTieQof46xEmEAELBXyuatEMVN/c+kCkjDm8L4hTH8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2097:b0:800:a501:a352 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-83ba4481376mr521119185a.22.1758306048127; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:20:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <865xdfj7em.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <865xdfj7em.fsf@gnu.org> From: ERIC Frederickson Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 13:20:37 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWBlr6IbOKMkD1-fvjYxelcGA-fm9yhJAg4fldc7ROc6Zosmzw2sa-c_FaQ Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Fri, Sep 19, 2025 at 1:14=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> When describing the behavior of 'backward-sentence', the manual >> states that this command leaves point "just before the first >> character of the sentence". This is incorrect, as >> 'backward-sentence' actually leaves point _on_ the first character >> of the sentence. > > In Emacs, point cannot be _on_ a character, it is always _between_ > two characters. The Emacs user manual says: > > By default, the cursor in the selected window is drawn as a solid > block and appears to be _on_ a character, but you should think of > point as _between_ two characters; it is situated _before_ the > character under the cursor. For example, if your text looks like > =E2=80=98frob=E2=80=99 with the cursor over the =E2=80=98b=E2=80=99, th= en point is between the =E2=80=98o=E2=80=99 > and the =E2=80=98b=E2=80=99. If you insert the character =E2=80=98!=E2= =80=99 at that position, > the result is =E2=80=98fro!b=E2=80=99, with point between the =E2=80=98= !=E2=80=99 and the =E2=80=98b=E2=80=99. > Thus, the cursor remains over the =E2=80=98b=E2=80=99, as before. Understood. Thanks for explaining. I'm surprised that I wasn't aware of this key difference between point and the cursor. I had thought that point was simply a synonym for "cursor". Misunderstanding fixed. > So you should understand the "before the first character" part of > what the manual says in this context. > > So I don't think what the manual says is inaccurate. Yes. Apologies for the amateur mistake. >> Also: I hope that I'm not cluttering the mailing list with too many >> small patches sent close together. I've happened to have a good >> deal of free time this week and have been enjoying trying to make >> some improvements to my favorite program. If anything I've been >> doing lately has been causing too much noise for anyone, please do >> let me know what kind of conduct is best appreciated around here, >> and I'll do my best to align with that. > > No problems here, feel free to submit any issue you think is worthy > of discussing. Sounds good. Thanks for bearing with me on this thread, -- Eric Frederickson