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From: Stephen Berman To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function X-Debbugs-Cc: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:41:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:H2YTwdjCzeA4DGeHoMCcD28qIWj/pBDsit05JZ0sx0CbI3GlE0h BDWk8FCWTBurjg1RUt8XSjttq+76we0mB69TCrLRRX9CNdosbfED3kg20mnxlNLzMU5GVku WdLjOZVsFU0Eabv09xSwCiZXrlCjB0inygjkvyR79iKwMAQh50f/6nn0B426Z8ru8Udv1FT y79GIBWszb67ybHTIOdZw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/AmMGvkzeHQ=;yM1aHzHdaBaw2SaUMIb07KbMI0y NKFpjfEP6z8i268BiUzxQa3EwKFfpmNTUIxND1pxGBfyR2KO8eIPcXvtmUTYznoB0fKjy1gkh oXEwQlXC+t9sDW8QHtqiexqCjv4CCMf0xAFnNpzUKHkCdBs5Vo2/+kK+fuyYZXavyC6OTjPIk 9cWrtIS7EAXHyWoZsTvRGUMq6obBSFaHU5DK+Cj4GIOR+gvOzR96qkUaiip03YA7RlJwOTOLm NrD29R51m3fk3bpfvm/nxhkESLSoOMDc8uV0H6ru4QkUoUN3+Rp1dWrwRZmPhM15U55Al+4GT 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: 0. emacs -Q 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive functi [...] Content analysis details: (3.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 3.6 RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL-CSS [94.134.95.122 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 T_SPF_PERMERROR SPF: test of record failed (permerror) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (stephen.berman[at]gmx.net) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.0 SPOOFED_FREEMAIL No description available. X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: 0. emacs -Q 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive functi [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 3.6 RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL-CSS [94.134.95.122 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 T_SPF_PERMERROR SPF: test of record failed (permerror) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (stephen.berman[at]gmx.net) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list manager --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: 0. emacs -Q 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive function from that file, e.g. `C-h f edt-setup-user-bindings RET'. =3D=3D> The *Help* buffer now begins with this sentence: edt-setup-user-bindings is a interpreted-function in =E2=80=98~/src/emacs/emacs-master/etc/edt-user.el=E2=80=99. It should say "...is an interpreted-function...". Here are three possible fixes: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: help-fns-function-description-header patch 1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index e9601d52e33..e71978fe3ba 100644 =2D-- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -1161,15 +1161,17 @@ help-fns-function-description-header (setq elts (cdr-safe elts))) (concat beg (if is-full "keymap" "sparse keymap")))) (t - (concat beg (format "%s" - (if (and (consp def) (symbolp (car def))) - (car def) - (let ((type (or (oclosure-type def) - (cl-type-of def)))) - (make-text-button - (symbol-name type) nil - 'type 'help-type - 'help-args (list type)))))))))) + (let* ((type (or (oclosure-type def) (cl-type-of def))) + (typ-str + (format "%s" + (if (and (consp def) (symbolp (car def))) + (car def) + (make-text-button + (symbol-name type) nil + 'type 'help-type + 'help-args (list type)))))) + (concat (if (string=3D type "interpreted-function") "= an " beg) + typ-str)))))) (with-current-buffer standard-output (insert description)) =20 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: help-fns-function-description-header patch 2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index e9601d52e33..9faee1bb959 100644 =2D-- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -1170,6 +1170,8 @@ help-fns-function-description-header (symbol-name type) nil 'type 'help-type 'help-args (list type)))))))))) + (when (string-match "\\(a\\) interpreted-function" description) + (setq description (replace-match "an" nil t description 1))) (with-current-buffer standard-output (insert description)) =20 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: describe-function patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index e9601d52e33..52fab0ab37f 100644 =2D-- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -317,7 +317,10 @@ describe-function (describe-function-1 function) (with-current-buffer standard-output (help-fns--setup-xref-backend) - + (save-excursion + (goto-char (point-min)) + (when (re-search-forward "\\(a\\) interpreted-function" nil t= ) + (replace-match "an" nil t nil 1))) ;; Return the text we displayed. (buffer-string)))))) =20 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Of these three I prefer the first, since it directly generates the correct string, while the other two change an incorrect string to the correct one. While all three are ad hoc fixes, I think the undoubted complexity of a more general fix is unjustified here, because (unless I've overlooked something) `interpreted-function' is the only function type symbol returned by `cl-type-of' in `help-fns-function-description-header' that results in the problem (since it begins with a vowel). In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.49, cairo version 1.18.4) of 2025-09-18 built on strobelfs2 Repository revision: 3415fa15e4f0a146d1f08df981dc9894bf2ff320 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101016 System Description: Linux From Scratch r12.3-20 Configured using: 'configure -C 'CFLAGS=-Og -g3' PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/opt/qt6/lib/pkgconfig' Configured features: ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG LCMS2 LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINERAMA XINPUT2 XPM XRANDR GTK3 ZLIB --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 18 12:55:35 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2025 16:55:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33880 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzHux-0000VU-F1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 12:55:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43218) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzHuv-0000Rv-3u for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 12:55:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzHup-0006RL-EL; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 12:55:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=yXb7bqzcwwPfHxG3hyLP7hQiEvQCzVuFer6u8AuC/u0=; b=dAOlzaQpDs2+EYBzlwg3 +htIpHFmcku9G1AXj0AydIbkk0ojnM3Zmw8mvG4jRi/50lA8vbGj1PghxOQFWj62u6a7ytUOfObSE INoqDo6JdLtXUBvVBZJTEPVvZ3YJwo3TlZe8Rmgi8C9EnZz7oIv5C/BOLV7kpX6X1rRSMpphPEh5a I3rnBtcNYs+Pp3h0lAZ8Uj5LCUzN5tHQeFkaJv3AFbjdWltem5JQ8T9MoidseFIL3WC1tUEzIGVYC GrCdFNG7bPasDGK4NDNoe0M+Z1ADpRfQMeN8tcJNN0o51F/McPA+SGadOdiJGlKb89iONVVJpIc8s B1+sYwmhIOubnw==; Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 19:55:24 +0300 Message-Id: <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stephen Berman In-Reply-To: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:41:16 +0200 > From: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled > function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: > > 0. emacs -Q > 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function > definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. > 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive function from that file, > e.g. `C-h f edt-setup-user-bindings RET'. > ==> The *Help* buffer now begins with this sentence: > > edt-setup-user-bindings is a interpreted-function in > ‘~/src/emacs/emacs-master/etc/edt-user.el’. > > It should say "...is an interpreted-function...". > > Here are three possible fixes: Thanks. I think this splits hair, but if we want to do that, let's do it right: instead of hard-coding specific words, implement a function that produces "a" or "an" depending on the following word. Because tomorrow someone will add yet another function qualifier, and what will we do then? add one more hard-coded phrase? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 18 17:27:31 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2025 21:27:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34591 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzMA6-00006T-H1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 17:27:30 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:56811) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzMA4-00006C-Lj for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 17:27:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=s31663417; t=1758230842; x=1758835642; i=stephen.berman@gmx.net; bh=VZNT6UGLNZJP140X7uGFWQHxwujBUZeeAcY9vuChZjw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=JZ1t2wygz5nk/a6pKr5YL/NQyCko5B/BMsSrGN0TFfnEAwmRS2frvceXBOiX9owt eAsK7XpX3i9XvbW8Cwe265G63SdmTsvNYLKxBG7/C7nXYKrlzODKhMzWhLLdPTYEC kwttOoRNUNKileCVLOfSeXujeqVMx6zOBu0QF3h39nCwodW9y5ni25pTVU5+jTIU1 E+xniprzl++SljzQraXRf+pOPMXVaxfxxsKaGfCRbPrh/iM4UL32Oc0lQ82zKeqlu usasCN5Ig+Uhb9cEjtMAZf7S9zTBEtiqP8bPgiHtQl8a15aea9rcVhXaa7SpbP4RO 6YUcrDlsLPpEIfGcmg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from strobelfs2 ([94.134.95.122]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N4hzZ-1uH7nB257n-015gDX; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:27:22 +0200 From: Stephen Berman To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:27:21 +0200 Message-ID: <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Provags-ID: 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Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:41:16 +0200 >> From: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >>=20 >> Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled >> function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: >>=20 >> 0. emacs -Q >> 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function >> definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. >> 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive function from that file, >> e.g. `C-h f edt-setup-user-bindings RET'. >> =3D=3D> The *Help* buffer now begins with this sentence: >>=20 >> edt-setup-user-bindings is a interpreted-function in >> =E2=80=98~/src/emacs/emacs-master/etc/edt-user.el=E2=80=99. >>=20 >> It should say "...is an interpreted-function...". >>=20 >> Here are three possible fixes: > > Thanks. > > I think this splits hair, but if we want to do that, let's do it > right: instead of hard-coding specific words, implement a function > that produces "a" or "an" depending on the following word. Because > tomorrow someone will add yet another function qualifier, and what > will we do then? add one more hard-coded phrase? How's this? --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: help-fns-function-description-header patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index e9601d52e33..d54e02dfef2 100644 =2D-- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -1161,15 +1161,19 @@ help-fns-function-description-header (setq elts (cdr-safe elts))) (concat beg (if is-full "keymap" "sparse keymap")))) (t - (concat beg (format "%s" - (if (and (consp def) (symbolp (car def))) - (car def) - (let ((type (or (oclosure-type def) - (cl-type-of def)))) - (make-text-button - (symbol-name type) nil - 'type 'help-type - 'help-args (list type)))))))))) + (let* ((type (or (oclosure-type def) (cl-type-of def))) + (typ-str + (format "%s" + (if (and (consp def) (symbolp (car def))) + (car def) + (make-text-button + (symbol-name type) nil + 'type 'help-type + 'help-args (list type)))))) + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-name= type)) + "an " + beg) + typ-str)))))) (with-current-buffer standard-output (insert description)) =20 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Steve Berman --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 18 18:47:12 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:46:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Joost Kremers To: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> (Stephen Berman via's message of "Thu, 18 Sep 2025 23:27:21 +0200") References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.13; emacs 30.2 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 Message-ID: <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=202.12.124.152; envelope-from=joostkremers@fastmail.fm; helo=fhigh-b1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stephen Berman , 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Thu, Sep 18 2025, Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swi= ss army knife of text editors" wrote: > On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 19:55:24 +0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:41:16 +0200 >>> From: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >>> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >>>=20 >>> Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled >>> function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: >>>=20 >>> 0. emacs -Q >>> 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive function >>> definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. >>> 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive function from that file, >>> e.g. `C-h f edt-setup-user-bindings RET'. >>> =3D=3D> The *Help* buffer now begins with this sentence: >>>=20 >>> edt-setup-user-bindings is a interpreted-function in >>> =E2=80=98~/src/emacs/emacs-master/etc/edt-user.el=E2=80=99. >>>=20 >>> It should say "...is an interpreted-function...". >>>=20 >>> Here are three possible fixes: >> >> Thanks. >> >> I think this splits hair, but if we want to do that, let's do it >> right: instead of hard-coding specific words, implement a function >> that produces "a" or "an" depending on the following word. Because >> tomorrow someone will add yet another function qualifier, and what >> will we do then? add one more hard-coded phrase? > > How's this? > + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-nam= e type)) Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". --=20 Joost Kremers Life has its moments From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 18 19:01:40 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2025 23:01:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34818 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzNdE-0005Fl-6z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 19:01:40 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:44471) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzNdB-0005FL-6L for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Sep 2025 19:01:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=s31663417; t=1758236490; x=1758841290; i=stephen.berman@gmx.net; bh=r35YDPAxzlBXWt7xXAgAVMHkm8GZQqxVv4aHYvterZM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=JM7HquoTZvZdAEKrJFeATYxTLLc/YVONl+4Hr/Om5cde93QaCQy5VkZLnXvqWWJy opZAKbmRXnxa9DyPZlk55xDf2Gba8Ajog/8uVC5TKM9XbyOQ4hmQWMYMM035TG6mA lkyQ0ggf+QdvI9ztycaI4eF+kFkQYs8KUFOq2yyEtXL0Wu/xrT2WIxHSEc9nTS5Z7 Tg4Ll9yRwW4EZ3KbS3xCzaE6qC4R+daz+o+eofODmPqSWj4fHWatQN6IGyJMzKoic ymONOTqSuGB4zkh1+yY29XUKSGijS1ftC6OhOUxkiZ53zK1eyoSMFRJtdH10O3YEc XZFn0d2Psv8OtYmFHg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from strobelfs2 ([94.134.95.122]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MJVDW-1ufdoo2EsC-00Oc59; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:01:30 +0200 From: Stephen Berman To: Joost Kremers Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:01:29 +0200 Message-ID: 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debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 Joost Kremers = wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18 2025, Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the S= wiss > army knife of text editors" wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Sep 2025 19:55:24 +0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >>>> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 18:41:16 +0200 >>>> From: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >>>> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >>>>=20 >>>> Calling `describe-function' on a noninteractive non-byte-compiled >>>> function produces an ungrammatical sentence in the *Help* buffer: >>>>=20 >>>> 0. emacs -Q >>>> 1. Load a non-byte-compiled file that contains a noninteractive functi= on >>>> definition, e.g. edt-user.el from the Emacs "etc" directory. >>>> 2. Call `describe-function' on a noninteractive function from that fil= e, >>>> e.g. `C-h f edt-setup-user-bindings RET'. >>>> =3D=3D> The *Help* buffer now begins with this sentence: >>>>=20 >>>> edt-setup-user-bindings is a interpreted-function in >>>> =E2=80=98~/src/emacs/emacs-master/etc/edt-user.el=E2=80=99. >>>>=20 >>>> It should say "...is an interpreted-function...". >>>>=20 >>>> Here are three possible fixes: >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I think this splits hair, but if we want to do that, let's do it >>> right: instead of hard-coding specific words, implement a function >>> that produces "a" or "an" depending on the following word. Because >>> tomorrow someone will add yet another function qualifier, and what >>> will we do then? add one more hard-coded phrase? >> >> How's this? > >> + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-na= me type)) > > Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets > "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". Yes, that's why I wrote in my OP: "While all three are ad hoc fixes, I think the undoubted complexity of a more general fix is unjustified here, because (unless I've overlooked something) `interpreted-function' is the only function type symbol returned by `cl-type-of' in `help-fns-function-description-header' that results in the problem (since it begins with a vowel)." Steve Berman From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 01:59:02 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 05:59:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36349 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzU98-0003jp-69 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:59:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzU95-0003jF-Ph for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:59:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzU90-0006Tv-A2; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:58:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=kkA10A/VpCSlmphL6BUc1E9SsCBpvL2PtMiwuM4eId0=; b=HOpHEJHVzFrj AIrV6MCtDlSWPsN2J7+sBQENKYv+Oj2VkcQtrBpkS/zMKYkaKHKh482S65dX3Lm4qGfmEOd+EtiXo UjXJ5xzI2PIpRa9SIMIsNpNCtg/h5Qkh6xgkPXnHclE5JOi/OXJ1aThZtCSEF4fGCFI8cRSt9AJB6 NUiLcOBW4DF7S+bww7li+miaPKJHlsNMiy5aALAWuv82c4XtICNdqyyOGlt9nLaivg/zRhyhTUW/B t4GieAuzjInAGEbhQWqcjPwi/prJi3CgB/pGfwjHmAG7VBsWFsvF2odt5A2UzbTxJosujCKduhGxu mo5L26hLZM7xQEeQPx8v+A==; Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 08:58:42 +0300 Message-Id: <86a52rj84t.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Joost Kremers In-Reply-To: <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> (message from Joost Kremers on Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: stephen.berman@gmx.net, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Joost Kremers > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stephen Berman , > 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 > > > How's this? > > > + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-name type)) > > Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets > "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". Right. And how harder would it be to write a more generally correct function? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 02:01:00 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 06:01:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36358 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUB2-0003xF-9v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:01:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUAz-0003wt-ER for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:00:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzUAt-0006tK-67; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:00:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=47YHm64y8weEwEygjfT98kXoyOldhK7GCmNOWgZBhpQ=; b=PABDABGtDufQ PjVOm3DKiuGuUmd9bzA+pR6W2qwx2y7C4hpkdWEvU+iDAdujs6OJaKRZi9XaLlxzG4hlKcx29iZi3 ui317UUO4JdbREBSsX9gFp2S42E6VS2yTdsvLBYXTuvtNAQcLm01qwXpCV6k+wemX9C9+KwSKZ+WI z60kzr+5O9sqKo3IwgtsOHFd70b7taAN2W4JeC1EIUbN5SWYep8IGLLHO2JrKJIS1x0TS6K894sk0 CC8Q/SJa1jYDfVz75yKG51dgKW4hFjX5kR/houxKRSwurvwRe8OaducsxgmHyDUUhqbV/LAlR8TKQ w0eGigVQZpeGY9DnP9ICNA==; Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:00:32 +0300 Message-Id: <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stephen Berman In-Reply-To: <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> (message from Stephen Berman on Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:01:29 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stephen Berman > Cc: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of > text editors" , Eli Zaretskii , > 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:01:29 +0200 > > On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 Joost Kremers wrote: > > > Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets > > "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". > > Yes, that's why I wrote in my OP: "While all three are ad hoc fixes, I > think the undoubted complexity of a more general fix is unjustified > here, because (unless I've overlooked something) `interpreted-function' > is the only function type symbol returned by `cl-type-of' in > `help-fns-function-description-header' that results in the problem > (since it begins with a vowel)." If we don't care about being wrong in some cases, then why fix this to begin with? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 03:10:05 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 07:10:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36602 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVFs-0000lw-FM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:10:05 -0400 Received: from fout-b6-smtp.messagingengine.com ([202.12.124.149]:56637) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVFp-0000l5-7b for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:10:02 -0400 Received: from phl-compute-02.internal (phl-compute-02.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C80B1D0022C; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-02.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:09:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1758265794; x=1758352194; bh=a4ZlOZGps/ wpNF8J8v9pxPx+YHJFG12BtiFs9RYwoxs=; b=xgGCVX3c3gtDQ4Lb5XMLeGbFma ly/ZYqFd+6I89gi8gr8SKGQmLVnaIiCSmPEBEDglVoPGcWS6JSQjaMBMwyKYBy8M +5sObQk2pLEVIeuUWz6F7KQnswDfKBLcVO9xN7ZjqqBFHA5bEzhsMUe7wUKSmc7v /mRy0IPvA6lZ8WOD/28jtJtWGd0jcC70lQslAWyMYg71V1x/fuNGGLSAdcY/9RtA kXWk0L0v/iBu0XxSmXn0JqbAcqLA878FpxC99G2zLPAVSBdJ8+lt72fd8ADSYvVs SFArIlpqT5MGxHMPyBmSYkBDwPav5ytUDDuLsZ/Dx3hEw8aKnssfUcBXnjQw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1758265794; x=1758352194; bh=a4ZlOZGps/wpNF8J8v9pxPx+YHJFG12BtiF s9RYwoxs=; b=eQa9YexfCFufNqBb9nS/ftyVYZe+G8ClG1zfPF8keEqRE7RGeIF 2il+AJKgABxJSSjNJ015K8QbgOwHPm+Xo/OJBcyq7/zhH1+zywFezdkMq86eYDXO ervcbxBeiqfHIP7P9eNb/k/QfPMuyyJnt3PsslEnUACqB0cm14c9cbRhP4uteHya n4dtjpeSL5Aj86Jj6nh3A+ZEeg4hJJlgXc4jAZQ6Z8Ywbtm9/XmU/8NTMK21rUf+ koDicoi1MBIf4r03Is5mwoD2i9jHA5M3TKA3adSpRU06QyA7symjXQ3FM/DvUjGW o/J/RGK2pKYY/r6cyCk0yI9ILMP/M3gmqWA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdeggdegkeehjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjug hrpefhvfevufgjfhgffffkgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpeflohhoshhtucfm rhgvmhgvrhhsuceojhhoohhsthhkrhgvmhgvrhhssehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefkeejgffftdfgffejudeukeetheduhfevtefhhfehiefhledt gffhgeekiedvheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehjohhoshhtkhhrvghmvghrshesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmhdpnhgspghrtghp thhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepjeelgeeileesuggvsg gsuhhgshdrghhnuhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehsthgvphhhvghnrdgsvghrmhgrnhes ghhmgidrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopegvlhhiiiesghhnuhdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie15541ac:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:09:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Joost Kremers To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <86a52rj84t.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Sep 2025 08:58:42 +0300") References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <86a52rj84t.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.13; emacs 30.2 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:09:51 +0200 Message-ID: <86o6r6dikg.fsf@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: stephen.berman@gmx.net, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Sep 19 2025, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Joost Kremers >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stephen Berman , >> 79469@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 >> >> > How's this? >> >> > + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-name type)) >> >> Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets >> "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". > > Right. And how harder would it be to write a more generally correct > function? It's impossible if you only know the spelling of a word and not its pronunciation, which is the case here. So you'd either have to hard-code a bunch of exceptions, or go online and consult Wiktionary or some other resource to get the pronunciation. Which hardly seems worth the trouble... -- Joost Kremers Life has its moments From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 03:16:01 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 07:16:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36628 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVLc-0001Lt-SC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:16:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46624) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVLX-0001LV-7A for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:15:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVLQ-0000q7-1n; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:15:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=vt3H2NLvryZewCHEaeLSDUqhA4ytm76UMfwmsK2fIxE=; b=K9CL9APZH6ZG XGfKvKdGqkMiLMBQkLtjRSXSGrxB5UzSZ5YlYZAk3Vz+w5rcYd4liZ1LVLHnwVIWrZbgcZ69cV7Ri +lbh7bcaEawaVG/+PwdeA/GKdMOlEjkDrW1Ol5LITQDjhon3P0KTmD/shHFOrYibTtTZnP+d6njqY WpnLS83df10AP+GAeijzybS1bZR4Ux8Hn4ux8cX497TfIkl3RthlBcuw4+4FLEBouhsSv77FVDtAr gmsSk9HYzHzoXiM8mXcReINYcC27bQvSLComJmVxwTPiHwNhZDWLPl5Vhje02qUN+fk7jI4hPfGDZ LNj+lFYz+BEjS4AGXlzczg==; Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 10:14:40 +0300 Message-Id: <86348ikj6n.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Joost Kremers In-Reply-To: <86o6r6dikg.fsf@fastmail.fm> (message from Joost Kremers on Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:09:51 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <86a52rj84t.fsf@gnu.org> <86o6r6dikg.fsf@fastmail.fm> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: stephen.berman@gmx.net, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Joost Kremers > Cc: stephen.berman@gmx.net, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:09:51 +0200 > > On Fri, Sep 19 2025, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Joost Kremers > >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stephen Berman , > >> 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 > >> > >> > How's this? > >> > >> > + (concat (if (string-match-p "\\`[aeiou]" (symbol-name type)) > >> > >> Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" gets > >> "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". > > > > Right. And how harder would it be to write a more generally correct > > function? > > It's impossible if you only know the spelling of a word and not its > pronunciation, which is the case here. You are saying that English pronunciation is determined by something beyond the spelling? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 03:52:54 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 07:52:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36743 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVvJ-0003xJ-Rz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:52:54 -0400 Received: from fout-b6-smtp.messagingengine.com ([202.12.124.149]:47881) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzVuu-0003vp-M6 for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:52:29 -0400 Received: from phl-compute-01.internal (phl-compute-01.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B8C1D00218; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-01.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:52:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1758268342; x=1758354742; bh=lC3aJnuKsL M90mefDeVSGuuTlTaddZsgjJyI8E9IX8U=; b=aPOy5FokRhR0K0woT+M83BorJb g8fpG6NC+IBOPxDOidFvztf7wUfwjP2IpNmansd4BX0yLcuxpsdwus2GMFeUiN13 CK/KGV/9KOT+n9AoCpK57FXHzQ+AW3Fp406cUUNJYvj+wDt6c+agjSnbLdltfcc0 YleKJNKwcr+tOs92n7b/eXz7XScF0ZojfQQVaaXvIBlsHW0V0UbcB1mxjCre+iJm nGqOwlIGeSDAwKynN/GhgjPYM0wOwxvZdFJ2lYUX38eeoUgwN4TdQq5H74otlYWf mP/tkueN2tKtnjtHtzWmpI5tKYjFVfc5xUuB85pIj6ipDOtiHK+F1wOF8Tbw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1758268342; x=1758354742; bh=lC3aJnuKsLM90mefDeVSGuuTlTaddZsgjJy I8E9IX8U=; b=Ce0mw6ItfC6XI7gIpSvdmE/Ku6s11SJaReTOo/Ak6ADqXomgOmO ZHwyjrpPUykmLaLPKBJeYAexjAExcivzU/+lpQs3lbuF4HAk2vcJvF4+Fy4NtCIb +NsIbyGaeHv2NiHMrxOuiaCF2my8aMqJINNSdr4Q8GXoOMCH2p9j7EPu/aKZET+z dUZNlsDO2Z7mUQuSBotw1reQgbejzlyFI+aAjXZTedwDab5c7fd2TEREtCi3gU0t s6jqri7rGhRongiQ4JdC1uMxZmgHWq42OJWoMvr2sKDYQDlLuBAZYQAMOiVaM/qX wO/YDKVb+X/AkROlwvNNvt7llQFID59g5AA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdeggdegkeeiiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjug hrpefhvfevufgjfhgffffkgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpeflohhoshhtucfm rhgvmhgvrhhsuceojhhoohhsthhkrhgvmhgvrhhssehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqeenuc ggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefkeejgffftdfgffejudeukeetheduhfevtefhhfehiefhledt gffhgeekiedvheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpehjohhoshhtkhhrvghmvghrshesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmhdpnhgspghrtghp thhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepjeelgeeileesuggvsg gsuhhgshdrghhnuhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehsthgvphhhvghnrdgsvghrmhgrnhes ghhmgidrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopegvlhhiiiesghhnuhdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie15541ac:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 03:52:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Joost Kremers To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <86348ikj6n.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Sep 2025 10:14:40 +0300") References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <86a52rj84t.fsf@gnu.org> <86o6r6dikg.fsf@fastmail.fm> <86348ikj6n.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: mu4e 1.12.13; emacs 30.2 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:52:19 +0200 Message-ID: <86bjn6c218.fsf@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: stephen.berman@gmx.net, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Sep 19 2025, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Joost Kremers > You are saying that English pronunciation is determined by something > beyond the spelling? Yes, I am. And not just for English, for every language that has a written form. The pronunciation is an inherent property of a word, its spelling is not. Just consider "row" (a line of objects) vs. "row" (noisy argument). Same spelling, different pronunciations. Anyway, this is off-topic here, obviously, so I'll shut up now. ;-) -- Joost Kremers Life has its moments From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 11:03:48 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 15:03:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzceJ-0002yj-V1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:03:48 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:47173) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzceF-0002yP-GE for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:03:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=s31663417; t=1758294203; x=1758899003; i=stephen.berman@gmx.net; bh=iASO1bklmkHgil3a5G6ZCNyIKJTY/522MJFfozCh6/I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=IUmNLn+rxM+IPcFspIryYwvkCkj+GhwNiuN8wq1r7xXyNtUjT65sx/+j+2+vFpaF JeNk0J8a7JRNhLY3042eoNcIi1xyzta0ONW0QJ6BYeecDVQvwXgAtNtU4INd/fVDc yjFWZaVgSJ8BY2hGaXWUDGgR1JTHUfkB6OaecsbxQNKQ24gYg44VeEhD/hINCWs8f I4SoCiCUT8xCYOJrW2cd4wtA67IooJBCZEJooIrx5S9xuWrmgqlq5x/d/fcQ6HMJY BAwHMrbBtwpriTR+lH3IS3FFOED2EPqXCR03rxViqDzo6j04hGFSDJEwqZecYfovI rwMtd35saKA1G2xEQg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from strobelfs2 ([88.130.62.208]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfYPi-1uSkj43x7I-00bn2S; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 17:03:23 +0200 From: Stephen Berman To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> 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-1.7 (-) On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 09:00:32 +0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stephen Berman >> Cc: Stephen Berman via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife= of >> text editors" , Eli Zaretskii , >> 79469@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 01:01:29 +0200 >>=20 >> On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 00:46:53 +0200 Joost Kremers wrote: >>=20 >> > Potentially problematic, because not every word that starts with "u" = gets >> > "an". And sometimes words starting with "h" also need "an". >>=20 >> Yes, that's why I wrote in my OP: "While all three are ad hoc fixes, I >> think the undoubted complexity of a more general fix is unjustified >> here, because (unless I've overlooked something) `interpreted-function' >> is the only function type symbol returned by `cl-type-of' in >> `help-fns-function-description-header' that results in the problem >> (since it begins with a vowel)." > > If we don't care about being wrong in some cases, then why fix this to > begin with? AFAIK there are no cases in the current code for which the fix I proposed (in any of the variants) is wrong, and the last version is likely to DTRT for many, if not all, plausible future additions to the repertoire of functions type symbols. I think a fix that would work in all possible cases would require consulting a large wordlist (that would have to be continually updated) and I don't think this issue justifies implementing and maintaining such a fix. But I do think it's better to have a limited fix known to work with the current code base than to leave such a silly bug in Emacs. Steve Berman From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 11:54:06 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 15:54:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40451 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzdQz-0001nf-Kh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:54:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzdQs-0001mZ-Fp for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:53:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzdQl-0005EV-Vd; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:53:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=dv9w+qRbgBRo8Y/qMVHV+uF9IxkOT9MWGXoU8oHafMA=; b=QsT3ZFyBSX9i YIFfbv39inwkrV7xqfjwW3LR544t48DdITkXqNyAMa8oM7SUgeMNAf4rikPqq/NG/9xpaVX18UJRf 7YyF0G2K3GktnOtwIxPeNXQw/zyNv0A2eKa0l018lmJ2BONMINXfvts1h8eU9s2oxkCm9W+fUdUwn cxcKJm2I92BDrd80d8JgyIUQIpNDlrvVcpEE44F90MSybi9hr7zlUrJ4FGtP46CYzdukQT6KnWnwF PN1vk1fvCZwLP0EzsZbQRjT8r77pxEHRgavhnjROqfeVLYJVOQy2skAK3dCD9YPkvEfnZBhQYMSWM PnnxDU7f/tc15w5KPrYjgA==; Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:53:34 +0300 Message-Id: <86qzw2igld.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stephen Berman In-Reply-To: <87frci5vt1.fsf@gmx.net> (message from Stephen Berman on Fri, 19 Sep 2025 17:03:22 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> <87frci5vt1.fsf@gmx.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stephen Berman > Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 17:03:22 +0200 > > > If we don't care about being wrong in some cases, then why fix this to > > begin with? > > AFAIK there are no cases in the current code for which the fix I > proposed (in any of the variants) is wrong, and the last version is > likely to DTRT for many, if not all, plausible future additions to the > repertoire of functions type symbols. I think a fix that would work in > all possible cases would require consulting a large wordlist (that would > have to be continually updated) and I don't think this issue justifies > implementing and maintaining such a fix. But I do think it's better to > have a limited fix known to work with the current code base than to > leave such a silly bug in Emacs. >From where I stand, it is not a bug, and certainly isn't silly. Don't we have anything better to do to improve Emacs? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 19 14:35:44 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2025 18:35:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41082 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfxK-0005RR-Fe for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:35:44 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:38259) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzfxG-0005QO-BY for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:35:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.net; s=s31663417; t=1758306927; x=1758911727; i=stephen.berman@gmx.net; bh=x5rhWVqtzQW8I+6DUQczVMUD2/7FGdv/gzVvrxptbQE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=nCyvTqh6Hi8Dk4kT18jQwMrDuNaDRWfLsATfd+62ozgm+2tT06rwNQAf/zG7zhPN gy0Uim6ELQsX9DYqi1T9OBZaqAiGjNLAkfM2mdoXVVsklXuyGxOfHd4IhEc3MaHD/ YhKUXaqpZ18gEmtj810yRx7aHRp21VsrwrDxuaMO61qfh+AGDjvZGYF1iBmKIZuk9 0bZxIxJX0n8MH7j/HZINsFP+vAQQFMfT6QwIWIkNKLmvWTvlF8vixSoniqpp+7ksP bs6hUfJkVmUZ+cfIb1RcGH7e0J1F+VdDyd1EhjqCAo0tyjdNHVgUayk/s4Q6wiGEb vr5NGmxFrQg9XUjpMw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from strobelfs2 ([88.130.62.208]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M1Ycl-1uxl4e0gDz-002UUp; Fri, 19 Sep 2025 20:35:27 +0200 From: Stephen Berman To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function In-Reply-To: <86qzw2igld.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> <87frci5vt1.fsf@gmx.net> <86qzw2igld.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 20:35:26 +0200 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Stephen Berman >> Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 17:03:22 +0200 >>=20 >> > If we don't care about being wrong in some cases, then why fix this t= o >> > begin with? >>=20 >> AFAIK there are no cases in the current code for which the fix I >> proposed (in any of the variants) is wrong, and the last version is >> likely to DTRT for many, if not all, plausible future additions to the >> repertoire of functions type symbols. I think a fix that would work in >> all possible cases would require consulting a large wordlist (that woul= d >> have to be continually updated) and I don't think this issue justifies >> implementing and maintaining such a fix. But I do think it's better to >> have a limited fix known to work with the current code base than to >> leave such a silly bug in Emacs. > > From where I stand, it is not a bug, and certainly isn't silly. Are you saying that code that unintentionally (and not by design, as with messages or doc strings that omit articles to save space) produces ungrammatical English in the help system is not a bug? If so, that's a surprising and rather disturbing statement coming from an Emacs maintainer. And the bug is silly because if the ungrammatical string were not generated by code but written by a human, it would rightly be treated as a typo and corrected without hesitation or discussion. > Don't we have anything better to do to improve Emacs? Sure, but not everyone who wants to improve Emacs can tackle the biggest issues; I hope you don't mean to imply that those who feel motivated to make less important improvements should not do so. And in particular fixes for less important bugs like this one should not be rejected just because they are not as general as possible: that would be like demanding disproportiate effort for small bug fixes, which in practice would be like saying we don't care about fixing small bugs. Steve Berman From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 20 02:42:13 2025 Received: (at 79469) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Sep 2025 06:42:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzrIS-0006Th-J0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2025 02:42:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uzrIQ-0006T9-Bm for 79469@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2025 02:42:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uzrIK-0001Lh-9V; Sat, 20 Sep 2025 02:42:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=xlrxvGz+5WgeKmpwQpEPGCH++OliGQtvwM4B9btHu0M=; b=Q2qA0dHSLEdq RzkQgtKbyaA2/NSdO6SikdNgqIeMPTB8Yc6xFlp0WqPklQlURt5NATMs2rK15n0tuqeoavTEJ8Idw na4IRoY6oB7raK8THt0qN2JAOgZmcBON71GFY8Jd8Kkk73PsUq94fzfIdsaPFCzf6+7itPKnoRL+K enQl3o0VjNiUdxxlfAC2hswiUXCd10M/8wzIiDEiZJ5pXnqgK5g7OqROoX7gZJxf3fkYTcB+0yBYL Dr7ZbxlUGLu+223Dm0O3mn6z32sF5/wxT1O30xYwj0gAkP1hdU3EzYK/XfpIfp17i7zIumEO73i4B Cl+T52G2O+PlYPSef3p+gg==; Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2025 09:42:01 +0300 Message-Id: <86ikhdiq12.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stephen Berman In-Reply-To: <87ms6q1ea9.fsf@gmx.net> (message from Stephen Berman on Fri, 19 Sep 2025 20:35:26 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#79469: 31.0.50; Ungrammatical sentence from describe-function References: <87y0qb4ssz.fsf@gmx.net> <86cy7nk8eb.fsf@gnu.org> <87tt0z4fk6.fsf@gmx.net> <86tt0ztm3m.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87ms6r4b7a.fsf@gmx.net> <868qibj81r.fsf@gnu.org> <87frci5vt1.fsf@gmx.net> <86qzw2igld.fsf@gnu.org> <87ms6q1ea9.fsf@gmx.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79469 Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stephen Berman > Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 20:35:26 +0200 > > On Fri, 19 Sep 2025 18:53:34 +0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> From: Stephen Berman > >> Cc: joostkremers@fastmail.fm, 79469@debbugs.gnu.org > >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 17:03:22 +0200 > >> > >> > If we don't care about being wrong in some cases, then why fix this to > >> > begin with? > >> > >> AFAIK there are no cases in the current code for which the fix I > >> proposed (in any of the variants) is wrong, and the last version is > >> likely to DTRT for many, if not all, plausible future additions to the > >> repertoire of functions type symbols. I think a fix that would work in > >> all possible cases would require consulting a large wordlist (that would > >> have to be continually updated) and I don't think this issue justifies > >> implementing and maintaining such a fix. But I do think it's better to > >> have a limited fix known to work with the current code base than to > >> leave such a silly bug in Emacs. > > > > From where I stand, it is not a bug, and certainly isn't silly. > > Are you saying that code that unintentionally (and not by design, as > with messages or doc strings that omit articles to save space) produces > ungrammatical English in the help system is not a bug? If so, that's a > surprising and rather disturbing statement coming from an Emacs > maintainer. And the bug is silly because if the ungrammatical string > were not generated by code but written by a human, it would rightly be > treated as a typo and corrected without hesitation or discussion. I'm saying that Emacs is not a text-generating tool, and this particular text does its job, even if it's not exactly according to English rules. We have other deviations from English, for example, when we omit the definite article for whatever good reasons. > > Don't we have anything better to do to improve Emacs? > > Sure, but not everyone who wants to improve Emacs can tackle the biggest > issues; I hope you don't mean to imply that those who feel motivated to > make less important improvements should not do so. And in particular > fixes for less important bugs like this one should not be rejected just > because they are not as general as possible: that would be like > demanding disproportiate effort for small bug fixes, which in practice > would be like saying we don't care about fixing small bugs. I didn't reject anything; please be fair and don't accuse me in something I didn't say or do. If you feel strongly about your fix, feel free to install it. It isn't worth the argument.