From unknown Thu Sep 11 11:56:30 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#79261 <79261@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#79261 <79261@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction Reply-To: bug#79261 <79261@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 18:56:30 +0000 retitle 79261 coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong dir= ection reassign 79261 coreutils submitter 79261 james@nurealm.net severity 79261 normal tag 79261 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 17 22:11:56 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2025 02:11:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48459 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1unpLl-0001XN-IY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:11:55 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:57730) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1unfqh-0004Pa-Rt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 12:03:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1unfqc-0005ft-B3 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 12:03:06 -0400 Received: from primary.nurealm.net ([2001:470:4b:28c:0:1:0:2]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1unfqa-0003l4-Sc for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 12:03:06 -0400 Received: from jade.local (jade.local [10.44.33.5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519) (Client did not present a certificate) by primary.nurealm.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7761E4E85AA for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 10:02:40 -0600 (MDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nurealm.net; s=s2primary; t=1755446560; bh=hyeDO/O+ZcyJZxNeMooYAqLEmkxoNpUqY8nUK8lOX0A=; h=Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date; b=T0Su9KzAlZ6IpzbXQ31TaoA7cXCqTiwzMeoIff9RsAXodaGTojuv3EjyffdARUQGM BHLXYuCUSpjbxo38yVurEb/eiSlotncDrKVeXtK+D4KtCNO/alTHL+9OowCaP28W95 TB3KwWufnNc3N0cYOqUMY0zmqX3bCAUlZRxA+VfE= Message-ID: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> Subject: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction From: James Feeney To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 10:02:40 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:470:4b:28c:0:1:0:2; envelope-from=james@nurealm.net; helo=primary.nurealm.net X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:11:51 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: james@nurealm.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Arch Linux coreutils 9.7-1 $ timedatectl;date;date -u Local time: Sun 2025-08-17 09:50:24 MDT Universal time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 UTC RTC time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 Time zone: US/Mountain (MDT, -0600) System clock synchronized: yes NTP service: active RTC in local TZ: no Sun Aug 17 09:50:24 AM MDT 2025 Sun Aug 17 03:50:24 PM UTC 2025 `timedatectl` is correct. `date` is correct. `date -u` is off by 2x the timezone offset, showing UTC as 6 hours earlier,= which is wrong, instead of 6 hours later, which is correct. Please fix. James From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 17 22:21:39 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2025 02:21:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48496 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1unpVC-00024S-W4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:21:39 -0400 Received: from fhigh-b8-smtp.messagingengine.com ([202.12.124.159]:35297) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1unpV9-00024B-S3 for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:21:37 -0400 Received: from phl-compute-08.internal (phl-compute-08.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545407A0028; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-imap-06 ([10.202.2.83]) by phl-compute-08.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:21:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zplane.com; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date:date :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1755483689; x=1755570089; bh=lN7dDLHh2LmQ+jmzs7dxX255K/MaAo1ACvovlyEEzjQ=; b= PtJvUaLauUwFBa4V8WtB/h3Ty/ycCz7BZyZ5YdLEEQ12ZKmwByS6r+HRXrnBSju/ QPrTHKbGGvCvS1qeDDxOg3s70d/9T89HGUEP5aiBiLR5XNjUvFAH4iTp8TZfupxW wc2QffSc7UIIORqO5wWA/VQN8h4eMoLnv+R7mcGHo0LWEvfmv7sUi7HkT4alIxSs 1vuF8DAF/XQm2uvZtRcM4w7snQgobd/aJh0+Tz8hLzO5rkZUCnEx9bzTxiHHpouD 8fefvmFHAvQIZd5MaMtxStPdXunAfoAFvk4jSlB3nOtqKnmpB7o26/vzsoBCBD42 z9pSx6afoN1/gW6hQD1GSg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1755483689; x=1755570089; bh=l N7dDLHh2LmQ+jmzs7dxX255K/MaAo1ACvovlyEEzjQ=; b=cZiE5qDqS5IWn5WeI w+KKQabgNMtquCfgXAFH4lmhPBtxdUBayb0u3RS/fIC0qB2oGrVgZsQIev1zOtvb VGscYSX7Osw8GDlRottPpsQUrXJk0TRvFQZkeg3nEcVEK8eKvuE22mBTYmo/zhc4 C42VJjoOUjnQYn4iHruTAdDdgs35fGH3EmxcyNsfwclrvFgo3MW0+Cl6ivSavmho Z05Cjr6xJ7NO7W47vS2VwVE7YqxUBDTo1VhgajFHIsYxTWSzc97ZPEtbqGfvhdpN sSUoVVh5bQ4mUduoUz6gNJ5+RVfIftyhbMWSfNIBZJWd7HlxxMlTOQRyttejhEf7 6snfA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdefgdduhedugedtucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceu rghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefoggffhffvkfgjfhfutgfgsehtjeertd ertddtnecuhfhrohhmpedfifhlvghnnhcuifholhguvghnfdcuoehgughgseiiphhlrghn vgdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeeitdejhfejuddtfeelheffuedvvdejge dtgffgjeejueetgeehgeduleelteegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghr rghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepghgughesiihplhgrnhgvrdgtohhmpdhnsggprhgtphhtth hopedvpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopeejledvieduseguvggssghu ghhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepjhgrmhgvshesnhhurhgvrghlmhdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i002c41f6:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.phl.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id CC93B2400099; Sun, 17 Aug 2025 22:21:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: AG2ISPbRJ9X- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 20:20:40 -0600 From: "Glenn Golden" To: james@nurealm.net, 79261@debbugs.gnu.org Message-Id: <30413c82-b4e5-436a-aabb-fd1c1f5d0bf7@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Sun, Aug 17, 2025, at 10:02, James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > Arch Linux > coreutils 9.7-1 > > $ timedatectl;date;date -u > Local time: Sun 2025-08-17 09:50:24 MDT > Universal time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 UTC > RTC time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 > Time zone: US/Mountain (MDT, -0600) > System clock synchronized: yes > NTP service: active > RTC in local TZ: no > Sun Aug 17 09:50:24 AM MDT 2025 > Sun Aug 17 03:50:24 PM UTC 2025 > > `timedatectl` is correct. > `date` is correct. > `date -u` is off by 2x the timezone offset, showing UTC as 6 hours > earlier, which is wrong, instead of 6 hours later, which is correct. > UTC = 09:50:24 MDT + 6hr = 15:50:24 = 03:50:24 PM, which is what date -u shows. 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[86.44.211.146]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45a223279fcsm124092745e9.19.2025.08.18.02.26.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Aug 2025 02:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 10:26:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction To: james@nurealm.net, 79261@debbugs.gnu.org References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Language: en-US From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=C3=A1draig_Brady?= In-Reply-To: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tag 79261 notabug close 79261 stop On 17/08/2025 17:02, James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > Arch Linux > coreutils 9.7-1 > > $ timedatectl;date;date -u > Local time: Sun 2025-08-17 09:50:24 MDT > Universal time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 UTC > RTC time: Sun 2025-08-17 15:50:24 > Time zone: US/Mountain (MDT, -0600) > System clock synchronized: yes > NTP service: active > RTC in local TZ: no > Sun Aug 17 09:50:24 AM MDT 2025 > Sun Aug 17 03:50:24 PM UTC 2025 > > `timedatectl` is correct. > `date` is correct. > `date -u` is off by 2x the timezone offset, showing UTC as 6 hours earlier, which is wrong, instead of 6 hours later, which is correct. I think you missed the "PM" in the output above. cheers, Pádraig From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 19 11:14:13 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Aug 2025 15:14:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54435 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uoO2O-0005WB-Gq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 11:14:12 -0400 Received: from resqmta-c2p-570919.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fd00:56::3]:33954) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uoO2L-0005Vn-15 for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 11:14:10 -0400 Received: from resomta-c2p-555482.sys.comcast.net ([96.102.18.233]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resqmta-c2p-570919.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPS id oO1Zu6vBBaAPqoO2Eu8N16; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 15:14:02 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20211018a; t=1755616442; bh=XY3BdMsXqOvfg6fbKTSj1yjExH4GF4MNRpbKa/Z26wE=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Xfinity-Spam-Result; b=pCFjvbhlU+Z2kDnle0aL+bPvjSEfLy8ehdh+V1fEqb8CRkVf6cqWBIQ/mdCYFT8VD ue6kWZa4892L5ZavfTHSMgPaRMG94SLpMtnQH3yaqFRH9vVD5SDHYe9IdSMdl6MTlM W3QEXhtqgtaNvRiYMQEJVlDmpTwchJq/Hjwf99H7TX1vOcs9aXk7+9Ewiyd/JGGZGZ T/IGdMTvIaW+ojJferc4bxrv97wbziI/vy3+fDpcnrPokdR5CbIyf4vfL1IHb9kfTX x40O/PUowmeijCGR/6vR0mqN4VH8XbMOCviT6fy+aGOzuMRINTrFqoiIyJcr63QsUP u72L4yi3keBjQ== Received: from [IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59] ([IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resomta-c2p-555482.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id oO1Lu1Ksk9AhpoO2Cuit89; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 15:14:01 +0000 Message-ID: <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction From: James Feeney To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady , 79261@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2025 09:13:05 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfLTiQH+j82oKpIvpELyRhLLAqxuMRLxZhtC7sUX9/f3UHewXq4hZZHPWmkWemlONSvns80js0gZ3ez6wE+/pTKaN3D/Dxm5u2e0xFLauTj2jLyl+qMEf U6tjVcArVmdq9p0sdSyAqtSts3LRYpCTHHmBib+VaffITlwISU92x9+cYuYQ73B6vtbISK3bs2p8GmjhupEDKzDCrfG6qbwYxYM6jK0N86f2lHaGm7uX2r1I Kz8o9ceeKs/3eq9eKFrugS+ENx98Fyo3VrKrAOiAm915mjFdVJZdqwZnivgiLug1MKcBOJ/1sPeaX8nuHTGK2Q== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: james@nurealm.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hey P=C3=A1draig On Mon, 2025-08-18 at 10:26 +0100, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > tag 79261 notabug > close 79261 > stop >=20 > ... >=20 > I think you missed the "PM" in the output above. >=20 > cheers, > P=C3=A1draig Yes, that's it, along with the coincidence that MDT relative to UTC is exac= tly 12 hours. Thanks for pointing-out the glaringly obvious in retrospect. Reviewing the `man 1 date` page, and after some trial and error: ---- $ date -uR Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:35:50 +0000 ---- I did also resort to "time format 24 hours on shell with date command": https://askubuntu.com/questions/1238397/ubuntu-server-20-04-time-format-24-= hours-on-shell-with-date-command which comments that: ---- 24-hour clock in en_US locale was a bug in glibc locale definition and has = been corrected in this commit. So, the change was intentional. =E2=80=93= =20 Mateusz Commented May 14, 2020 at 19:29 ---- referencing: https://sourceware.org/git/?p=3Dglibc.git;a=3Dcommit;h=3D7395f3a0efad9fc51b= b54fa383ef6524702e0c49 ---- en_US: define date_fmt (bug 24046) author Aurelien Jarno =09 Sun, 30 Dec 2018 17:29:53 -0600 (00:29 +0100) The en_US locale use a 12h am/pm format in both d_fmt and d_t_fmt, which is= correct, but does not define date_fmt. This causes the default value to be= used, which is in 24h format. ---- Apparently, I do not use the date command often enough to have appreciated = this "misfeature" applied to the `date` command six years ago - of course, = coupled with not being able to properly read what is printed on the screen. There is another comment, which expresses well my opinion on the matter: ---- I don't know why the 24-hours format has to have anything to do with "Great= Britain" or "United States". =E2=80=93 Yan King Yin Commented Dec 19, 2022 at 7:16 ---- Still, thanks for the hand-holding. James From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 19 14:55:42 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Aug 2025 18:55:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uoRUk-0008As-8s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:55:42 -0400 Received: from fout-b5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([202.12.124.148]:41741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uoRUf-0008AW-CT for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:55:40 -0400 Received: from phl-compute-08.internal (phl-compute-08.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EA11D002A8; Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-imap-06 ([10.202.2.83]) by phl-compute-08.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:55:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zplane.com; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date:date :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; 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Tue, 19 Aug 2025 14:55:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: AG2ISPbRJ9X- Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2025 12:55:10 -0600 From: "Glenn Golden" To: james@nurealm.net, 79261@debbugs.gnu.org Message-Id: <87c57080-ce93-4541-b9ba-5ebebcc61a64@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Tue, Aug 19, 2025, at 09:13, James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > > Yes, that's it, along with the coincidence that MDT relative to UTC is > exactly 12 hours. > That coincidence is true only in base 4. :) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 24 17:34:29 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Aug 2025 21:34:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47143 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqIM8-0003MS-3O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 17:34:29 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:44548) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqIM4-0003M4-C9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 17:34:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uqILy-00062q-DX for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 17:34:19 -0400 Received: from resqmta-h2p-547392.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fd02:2446::4]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uqILw-0003CL-19 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 17:34:18 -0400 Received: from resomta-h2p-555060.sys.comcast.net ([96.102.179.198]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resqmta-h2p-547392.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPS id qIKmudMxbgGa6qILYu2LZH; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 21:33:52 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20211018a; t=1756071232; bh=YxorDr3msdRb3ausuPxoUN3ziwQ+1/PkVbYvMypKhAA=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Xfinity-Spam-Result; b=Andfwzfg8ADc3JdZ+qYsWNyckTqdX4smGXDbAOn+PJwCi8h1D7xBAMs55IknOutH8 gfxBLTq42xHFR2yR4/SfPtxPAoJbhEKR7hR4TCY6ZwQHwObNzaxNfhhaestLg3FSDo gl/LU1xwiWNxc158x/x+IQ+VyHNOcXjExn8zOrP1AqjIB1egIYTfVZjcFnwKZ5Zl+I /8nEUn3/uvlxpw5TtSoY+ATRSAd2kK9RwjeuTB+q2oYmn0LFxsBzrVcTKk5hCsULlY Tc/S8g5Mp+oqyAuzFTwlgD0ybS/piW1Q9WRlNTQkkL6tjsRrDaSguMmEaFYQb1d9YW DPiQmSsiPCY2A== Received: from [IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59] ([IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resomta-h2p-555060.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id qILOuY1TDMUoaqILUuOboN; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 21:33:50 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction From: James Feeney To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=E1draig?= Brady , 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 15:33:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfLO83LsMfc4R5evP1S20lLxNaTEbRM8fGbKS/d4rPOPyqjDdfg98Yd14KL8rfWBPRaSjR+t71r1oYjNouCKsfbE3uqlcBzOg8oPkHVhn+ds14VJQBX4f Zn48mKOmLBZtlxvtNIsG99S02cEonDixGYUzx0iTC7+6l8dZi1Cxwim7kqQWP5gs7AdJd40B2O3Ct6w1+iO5YmcZtqNGORexTI7Cb6q24/tLqHu98DjQoTp4 XR37vhSy4tz6jdnTU6qTWdcw/Mi86pLCA3ybbFBpih7qek9dYJxXCjQ5begUOoHV+0ZSATUWWRvduAL/xgvPR31d9TpjIovvXsZ6giKfeBHKlKrjUc4EHzpX ADc+bRAaFokh+M1u2sCtdCi1AJYliw== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:558:fd02:2446::4; envelope-from=james@nurealm.net; helo=resqmta-h2p-547392.sys.comcast.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Aurelien Jarno X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: james@nurealm.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) By the way, aside from properly reading what is actually on the screen, or = not, it must also be noted that "UTC" is in *Great Britain*, where the loca= l "locale" is "en-GB", and the standard time format in Great Britain is 24 = hour, not 12 hour. Thereby, it seems to me that reporting UTC in 12 hour f= ormat is just plain wrong. Some people will argue that UTC is a "time" and not a "time zone". Then al= so, it is not entirely sensible say both that "the current UTC time must ha= ve a display format in this such time zone", and then to say that "UTC is n= ot a time zone". Consider, when reading from https://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov= /html/FAQs_1.html in the United States: ---- When you see 12 UTC or 1200 UTC or 12Z (all are the same and depend on fore= caster preference), it refers to noon at Greenwich. 00 UTC or 00Z is midni= ght Greenwich time. ---- "Greenwich time" is the time in Greenwich, not the time somewhere else in t= he world. Since 1968 December, the audio announcements from the WWV broadc= asts from Fort Collins Colorado always say "Coordinated Universal Time", in= 24 hour format, and *not* "Mountain Daylight Time", in 12 hour format. We note that `man 1 date` explicitly says that `date -u` will display "UTC"= time: ---- -u, --utc, --universal print or set Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) ---- It never occurred to me that UTC could ever be reported in a 12 hour format= . I still think of this as a bug, or at least a "misfeature", where conver= sely, someone had reported *not* using the local "locale" to display the ti= me in the `date` command as a bug. While this might be thought of as a "cu= ltural" difference in interpretation, I believe that "UTC" itself should be= the "UTC" of Great Britain, "+0000", never some UTC in MDT, despite the US= NIST-F4 time standard being in Boulder Colorado. Actually, it may be proper to display the result of `date` in the local "lo= cale" format generally, but then also, to display UTC from `date -u` as pro= perly in "Greenwich time", in England, with the en-GB locale. When "UTC" f= rom `date -u` is displayed in a different format, in every different countr= y and in every different time zone, there is much less that is "universal" = about "UTC", and "UTC" is much less of a constant that you can trust. I would like to know other people's thoughts on the question of whether "UT= C" has the time format of Great Britain, or the time format of some other l= ocation. Perhaps also read comments from the prior change to the display format here= : https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/project/glibc/patch/20181230235437.20485-1-aur= elien@aurel32.net/ James From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 24 19:17:24 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Aug 2025 23:17:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47455 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqJxk-00009M-5X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:17:24 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:51862) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqJxi-000091-28 for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 19:17:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3347D3C30672D; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id xzi9L97ToR6Q; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA4D3C306934; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 0BA4D3C306934 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1756077434; bh=TfV4c7W+Cytf/gIMmdqOQrC6Kuy66SMPE1q+SHWekB8=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=mrUHU6lDSQSyXVtfSqyELtPj+xdBtnoX3YNf/s+aBLnb+sd57upbhcYKLwnml9hSV O1bzK8mbHnHX9UB4JkKVsI1sVLT9fKGBUUufzbUEgQXcZjftm8UKMD+oMdbnN0aVxu e7KukMmQGR3IURK5S9LtJaYjbVy3Txeo00P9ug4M8fCPDQb2Vu+fKHk2b1aEmrZfti qZUSe9vHFJ6qVkVGNVqAiOl7IoLhPPIJByiWrlMPIuwZiwVOmZTmSh33xl1q9D0Di4 BcyikgJaaZGAnZV27IvCrffHsEns4Ma43yBkEhY84/a33TQa6JYzIsROzsV+F7rIgH w2igRaItxwhYg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id 2L3GMCxsj1bL; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (47-154-18-19.fdr01.snmn.ca.ip.frontiernet.net [47.154.18.19]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E15BA3C30672D; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46149681-f91f-47a1-901a-7ccc57a0f6cf@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:17:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction To: james@nurealm.net References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 Cc: 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, Aurelien Jarno X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2025-08-24 14:33, James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > reporting UTC in 12 hour format is just plain wrong. No it's fine, actually. UTC is a world-wide standard; it's not local to Greenwich. Many people prefer 12-hour format, and there's nothing wrong with displaying UTC that way. And even if I agreed with you, longstanding practice is to for "date -u" to respect the current locale, and POSIX requires this behavior. So there are good reasons for keeping the behavior the way it is. To get the behavior you prefer, you can run "LC_ALL=C date -u", "date -u +'%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'", or similar commands. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 25 17:15:55 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Aug 2025 21:15:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqeXi-0005gX-Ef for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 17:15:55 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:59474) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqeXY-0005fY-67 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 17:15:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uqeXP-0006Pb-Bm for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 17:15:38 -0400 Received: from resqmta-c2p-570217.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fd00:56::7]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uqeXH-0000fX-Bu for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 17:15:35 -0400 Received: from resomta-c2p-555694.sys.comcast.net ([96.102.18.237]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resqmta-c2p-570217.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPS id qdLouBJeHD7isqeX7uwmjA; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 21:15:17 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20211018a; t=1756156517; bh=CnCs0Gdt8TIdoD2OK5nP77WY3XaOTeagKEIXxi5zjyA=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Xfinity-Spam-Result; b=Y62weA+g9psvWPPqSawvveAaQ/Ia6ABWIGfaf8GV+kDQ+HDLMxID2Plpeiq7SRYUH KD7O2FIcjebKGiOkASQlROMUS+E2SBtsx5lkS2DXTSRTdv/RinJ6myapfv4aKftFOu xeRMeRBTx2pU8T+N7VHqzFRX4Q2eer5gRcWVzJNQJefUFI/t0ZBi46lDSR2iz6r7JH +yp+XMKTkTXMjVSshljWZ+T4dzlU1hyAVZoGuXK/b439TQOQTxeuAn5m3qYJFtVdsE 4X1P5nXxHper4DovmpXxwBvd5qilmhyHTzXM2FzHckRaZJCcRQCYrNxqpTyeMycq1F Pfz212iQwqDEQ== Received: from [IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59] ([IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resomta-c2p-555694.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id qeWxuo5spHd3gqeX3uUmy4; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 21:15:16 +0000 Message-ID: <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction From: James Feeney To: Martin D Kealey , 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:15:06 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfFmLiWLJkbYCurZLe6IM8UejYqhr1DEHi0PSBwJ//rC6a48TmwKMZ5Sn9MsT9gxW+qjwrJLTtpPrZ7jhkfHqHp200ucs0H3m5guOfvsd1Ag8PpeQdN7c jlfJ8k+T5smTcaSMTcdIBFoCE0neLeLrZnDDLK9X349pihOlzKrbfF+vRQdRsHnLFaqIuDLxxzE8QE9e/3+FFOTZG3feMmUxtKn172SPCzcfpdAyl7SQhoc5 wcqBTn7nrtlWGWNs/dIXajKiH7j3upMC3Tg+h0N38u0kvZc6a8zkkele8dMxwQtxZ0T8AWRLhmaMfgggJo5ssdXWRD61qgHMms+Fc3YJ20ftkgW+nJoMkYz3 uPMHgtcH Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:558:fd00:56::7; envelope-from=james@nurealm.net; helo=resqmta-c2p-570217.sys.comcast.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: james@nurealm.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hey Martin On Mon, 2025-08-25 at 20:10 +1000, Martin D Kealey wrote: > Hi James >=20 > On Mon, 25 Aug 2025, 07:33 James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports, wrote: > > it must also be noted that "UTC" is in *Great Britain*,=C2=A0 >=20 > To be honest, referring to UTC as "in" Britain is pretty weird. UTC may b= e used in Great Britain, but it's also used in Burkina Faso, Canary Islands= , C=C3=B4te d'Ivoire, Danmarkshavn, Faroe Islands, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, G= uinea-Bissau, Iceland, Ireland, Liberia. Mali, Mauritania, Portugal, S=C3= =A3o Tom=C3=A9 and Pr=C3=ADncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, & Togo. >=20 > If this is motivated by geography, it's worth considering that less than = 5% of the length of the Greenwich Meridian is actually within the bounds o= f the British Isles. >=20 > We in the rest of the world don't think at all about Britain when we hear= or mention UTC (or GMT). >=20 > TL;DR locale and timezone are independent; neither implies the other. >=20 > -Martin Thanks for your note. Short version: your point is taken, and I submit a r= evised argument, an appeal to ISO 8601. My essential question is this: What is the "proper" time *display format* = for "UTC"? And just to be clear, referencing https://www.timeanddate.com/time/gmt-utc-= time.html UTC is a time standard officially used to determine the civil time in t= ime zones worldwide. GMT is a time zone observed in some European and African countries. UTC itself is a bit complicated to understand because of the many different= methods used to define "time". Referencing https://www.itu.int/hub/2023/07/coordinated-universal-time-an-o= verview/ ---- Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) is the worldwide reference time scale comp= uted by the Bureau international des poids et mesures (BIPM). UTC is based on about 450 atomic clocks, which are maintained in 85 nationa= l time laboratories around the world. The International Earth Rotation and Reference Systems Service (IERS) deter= mines and publishes the difference between UTC and the Earth rotation angle= indicated by UT1. Whenever this difference approaches 0.9 seconds, a new l= eap second is announced and applied in all time laboratories. BIPM first computes a weighted average of all the designated atomic clocks = to achieve International Atomic Time (TAI). The algorithm for computing TAI= is complex, involving estimation, prediction and validation for each type = of clock. Similarly, measurements to compare clocks at distance are based either on g= lobal navigation satellite systems (GNSS) or on other techniques, such as t= wo-way satellite time and frequency transfer, or via optical fibres. These = all need to be processed to compensate for the delay due, for example, to t= he ionosphere, the gravitational field, or the movement of satellites. ---- As an aside, I find the most interesting "fudge factor" to be the correctio= n for "the gravitational field", wherein a "correction factor" is applied t= o the "time" from each of the world's atomic clocks to account for "gravita= tional time dilation". None of the world's atomic clocks actually keep the= same "time". Nevertheless, rather than discussing the complicated *source* of UTC, inste= ad, the question I am raising here has to do with how we *communicate* UTC,= and in particular, how we communicate the UTC using the POSIX compatible c= ommand `date -u`. And for that, it might be most useful to reference ISO 8= 601, "Date and time format", https://www.iso.org/iso-8601-date-and-time-for= mat.html And for those people prone to "TL;DR", summarizing: ---- For example, September 27, 2022 at 6 p.m. is represented as 2022-09-27 18:0= 0:00.000. ---- Translating, ISO 8601, the International Standard for Date and Time Format = uses a 24 hour clock time format, not a 12 hour format. Furthermore, it must be noted that UTC itself is *not* dependent upon any "= time zone", though ISO 8601 does provides display formats which *include* a= n offset relative to UTC to display local time in different time zones. Then perhaps I am contradicting my original argument, that "UTC" should be = displayed in 24 hour format because "UTC is in England", where the C locale= uses a 24 hour time format and because the USA NOAA compares UTC to GMT, s= uch that your point is taken. I=C2=A0make this appeal to ISO 8601 in its p= lace. For anyone inclined to accept my appeal to ISO 8601, the current display fo= rmat returned by `date -u`, especially within the USA, is wrong, and that i= s a bug that needs to be fixed. Are you inclined to accept the time format of ISO 8601 for the display of U= TC - or no? As an aside, for anyone inclined to read further, I found this bit of trivi= a interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Mean_Time#Ambiguity_in_the_definiti= on_of_GMT Which to understand, note=C2=A0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_instru= ment and that astronomers would not see the sun at midnight - thus the sign= ificance of Latin "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem" - while European astr= onomers would record 24 distinct hours in a "day", as was Roman tradition, = though Japanese astronomers used a complete day of 12 hours up to 1873, and= Hindu astronomers a complete day of 30 muhurtas, up to British colonial ru= le. However, perhaps given the inconvenience to merchants of having the "= day of the week" change in the "middle" of the business day, the Internatio= nal Meridian conference of 1884 adopted a resolution that "the astronomical= and nautical days will be arranged everywhere to begin at mean midnight." = Related: http://www.royalobservatorygreenwich.org/articles.php?article=3D1= 077 and http://www.royalobservatorygreenwich.org/articles.php?article=3D108= 7 James From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 25 18:21:16 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Aug 2025 22:21:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51856 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqfYy-000125-1v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 18:21:16 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:58380) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqfYn-00010p-3O for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 18:21:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8734E3C32B0E6; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id OH89dF_6GlAI; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD373C32B0D0; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu 5FD373C32B0D0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1756160456; bh=KCOB0KBij8WJgXLOGzqZ/zzgj1NfNqQ9Ls6mDyF9VPI=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=V+JlMXj62Cyz3+ywGqEhoqqUWx6ML1dKxWy5Of/v3Qw910WfifFjTGoClcRiOYwiS ZpAyptWnKQ7RslzqajVW+d8Mx13CXB+Y/ByuUQbDkE+FqJ+BySyg0xIdhEBtUJ6Wj9 8cOMhhtUBSsvJgfWKNyFKpoNS3zJTQRY6wrJCrWYYmcGmAENiRgRpfF3j068HQej02 pNZb04QeTlA+4YJY38NGBEGIluq0MuVgIPF5gtF3IyACkvNyQNaspDS59zxbhvz1+U cBid5wQmOioQic4IPQmt8Zo3bj53H3SD7BqYbQiesrMEF2rovLlzZRRla2RqkfLgHK WOzlJhwRrEZUA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id vkqHKjMe8rEd; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (47-154-18-19.fdr01.snmn.ca.ip.frontiernet.net [47.154.18.19]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41B903C32B0C6; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5f450251-1837-4f2d-a153-7c6131001da7@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 15:20:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction To: james@nurealm.net References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 Cc: 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, martin@kurahaupo.gen.nz X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2025-08-25 14:15, James Feeney via GNU coreutils Bug Reports wrote: > For anyone inclined to accept my appeal to ISO 8601, the current display format returned by `date -u`, especially within the USA, is wrong, and that is a bug that needs to be fixed. > > Are you inclined to accept the time format of ISO 8601 for the display of UTC - or no? We should not change the behavior of plain 'date -u' based on any arguments presented so far in this thread. The current behavior is longstanding, documented, required by POSIX, and plenty of people undoubtedly depend on it. To get 24-hour notation for UTC with 'date', you can run this: date -u +'%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S' or this: LC_ALL=C date -u Either of these work with any POSIX-conforming 'date'. GNU 'date' has other options (--iso-8601, --rfc-3339) that may be more convenient but are less portable. This sort of thing should be enough to satisfy the need here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 26 11:43:45 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Aug 2025 15:43:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56192 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqvpp-00079Z-0f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 11:43:45 -0400 Received: from resqmta-c2p-570641.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fd00:56::9]:29444) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqvpk-000799-D7 for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 11:43:41 -0400 Received: from resomta-c2p-555920.sys.comcast.net ([96.102.18.227]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resqmta-c2p-570641.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPS id qvA7uLXjc1RDpqvpbuJ6dC; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:43:31 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20211018a; t=1756223011; bh=9MWKHpXBLj89nmax1RgMsDjklj5FRB1Hh2cFMXJEjZI=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date: Content-Type:MIME-Version:Xfinity-Spam-Result; b=dl8GV3GUrNxwaZdt3pHPLpFm5PXzZgzUIyXJ8N9dMBBsAaMBgyvu1LjUcKDFVKcdd i+T6SIBbJQw6Vt0hF0yMlyOsnf4JK2ev3RvLP86HVBrFJ1f2I/tHo7JPwlfU7T6TfU M2g6rrbbboWmqQW8VeJnlY8M0WB8AdgP/nuPpT6G8B1zSodKaGqLVb7OUsegnTX6Hv X4CHBg8kNXFyIU6iGFSHl/+dUium954d0svTu9nG6ArDXcCgjFb8YOH95Pd+ZBKjWD KI0oGBOI77NsJjZpABfMImvkPB1bLgp5Cwrwlg76KFdBWZtfvyk5pzGNQko+soYo39 Kd2Mwu6w4xVsA== Received: from [IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59] ([IPv6:2001:558:6040:59:4012:32bb:d16b:1f59]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 256/256 bits) (Client did not present a certificate) by resomta-c2p-555920.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id qvpSuBsgu6TsDqvpYumeak; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:43:31 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction From: James Feeney To: Paul Eggert Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:43:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: <5f450251-1837-4f2d-a153-7c6131001da7@cs.ucla.edu> References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> <5f450251-1837-4f2d-a153-7c6131001da7@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfC9TOPyOeqpmmtNwwTRm+UmBoPRkYqeSLbTNe5F8dcOh7FjTkUIi1R5EBHE/g5TDLOvHtJdE+S7arPC/BQPE/cXK4gtEXP/4PoUG5WY5v7mYNuqBEkeB 5tgUkj8Hk1XgdvOO7w2x7GaRC8MOl7UwZU3ln/eAGeNPA2CSaamqZ7qe78OKsQ7CvoLkMZmedHRtTzOatTRxczwHZCRmQYfELFBxpp6ZLY2YdxjLcWtARdMa mNkHaYgnDbJs8+s5qyPgS5S0aT0TyOincl3PzGd+pCy9cHF4gnTt9aCyCzJ0TCBuKJb6qZ6GLgx8ftXzWQ3Q+Uoc2on5gXiczwZ9iLwYqZNI9UfMvTZ12qeS 9HcqLEAudPV4ouiFckxjcDuqH886wc7+PbyDPzO7nJXjNEwky5Y= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 Cc: 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils , martin@kurahaupo.gen.nz X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: james@nurealm.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, 2025-08-25 at 15:20 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > >=20 > > Are you inclined to accept the time format of ISO 8601 for the display = of UTC - or no? >=20 > We should not change the behavior of plain 'date -u' based on any=20 > arguments presented so far in this thread. The current behavior is=20 > longstanding, documented, required by POSIX, and plenty of people=20 > undoubtedly depend on it. >=20 Your definition of "longstanding" seems a bit disingenuous, since this chan= ge, from the default POSIX `date -u` 24 hour format to the 12 hour format, = was made in 2020, 5 years ago, while the GNU shellutils package was announc= ed in 1991, 21 years prior to this change to the time format. And then, to= say "undoubtedly depend" is to presume a conclusion, with no evidence what= soever. As was reiterated by Martin, and admitted, UTC *itself* has nothin= g to do with time zones. James From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Aug 26 15:54:47 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Aug 2025 19:54:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqzkl-0002tL-25 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:54:47 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:38974) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uqzkh-0002t1-Vo for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:54:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CF13C24094C; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id nka7WEsDPmQM; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BFE3C32B0F6; 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Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:54:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction To: james@nurealm.net References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> <5f450251-1837-4f2d-a153-7c6131001da7@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Eggert Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBlQQTAQgAPwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwEC HgECF4AWIQR+N5Kp2Kz31jO8FYjtl+kOYqp+NAUCZiLOewUJHWQLDAAKCRDtl+kOYqp+NHGE D/9Wmbk+cAaQsYLPGBvyzIjZIRzo/V2p3ZwckVA1VEQivx5azu1cs86qDoVIe45AtwmKOvdV wTQd/QeglkZR6D2YPW7UR/7emajyJZZcy+etVTDKoaw1i6/hmd/CpGjUeUSvgoPs6nYR+1lo pSXTpaGrh1W0qQHalSkOOwCHG3HtGk9Ve2AERDUYxmcn8/eZHb7xpUJEJMBBI1bx/zcw1EtB rjsQ1R1faJ/r/7LPAyV36RLvnbX69PylHKQEbJoaY9aUb2Vpm63ni3FeTA7/3jpPvaSRWHJh vPYx6Fm2Ln8pI0Yf/W2B8QMiPTnF/LnH2kvUcf9VXm+1mQJ3fBFU25HZwBhuqZ24IeKymPEt BUMQAum97Dto0jSgR2OUvX7z+twhpQEgRGBzPHYwDi4SxF5Z4Q5Y7B7a++HP9tIxG6CVFIwI 4xVaZud18bPa0YBL+cISmMgxq7h7yoVXl6u3pm9Yiv+W6Lp9QGN8Rw1VuJMOoFCYuoxG8mXO TA5b1jvlQ32gHFFhqErDAhNJRsfgrpe9Gok4Ycp+rWljbvS5Wrl0uth5MP7FbaHN2kmTZibq KXAd//IqczhDyU6qnW6ao+h4iDBDgYgRbQjmToX/vmIdEMzvPGqWXKhe/q1TYMuOO+IfP+bI fyPFH29nVN/o9c4J7myeKvv3HKSXdSVjlh2V787BTQRMgHJkARAApoXrvxP3DIfjCNOtXU/P dwMShKdX/RlSs5PfunV1wbKP8herXHrvQdFVqECaTSxmlhzbk8X0PkY9gcVaU2O49T3qsOd1 cHeF52YFGEt0LhsBeMjgNX5uZ1V76r8gyeVlFpWWb0SIwJUBHrDXexF67upeRb2vdHBjYDNe ySn+0B7gFEqvVmZu+LadudDp6kQLjatFvHQHUSGNshBnkkcaTbiI9Pst0GCc2aiznBiPPA2W QxAPlPRh3OGTsn5THADmbjqY6FEMLasVX8DSCblMvLwNeO/8SxziBidhqLpJCqdQRWHku5Xx gIkGeKOz5OLDvXHWJyafrEYjjkS6Ak6B5z6svKliClWnjHQcjlPzyoFFgKTEfcqDxCj4RY0D 0DgtFD0NfyeOidrSB/SzTe2hwryQE3rpSiqo+0cGdzh4yAHKYJ+UrXZ4p93ZhjGfKD1xlrNY DlWyW9PGmbvqFuDmiIAQf9WD/wzEfICc+F+uDDI+uYkRxUFp92ykmdhDEFg1yjYsU8iGU69a Hyvhq36z4zctvbqhRNzOWB1bVJ/dIMDvsExGcXQVDIT7sDNXv0wE3jKSKpp7NDG1oXUXL+2+ SF99Kjy753AbQSAmH617fyBNwhJWvQYg+mUvPpiGOtses9EXUI3lS4v0MEaPG43flEs1UR+1 rpFQWVHo1y1OO+sAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJgIbDBYhBH43kqnYrPfWM7wViO2X6Q5iqn40BQJm Is58BQkdZAsMAAoJEO2X6Q5iqn40Q68QAJ9GubS/ej30Vc4idoZdc0IyMcL7kQJbMohF+Tyn ZE+TGn9WvzP10yLyzoI0vNlcNfP92d2MS//pFjOuANb5mwyiEYA+rDZIdS4ZZpHxCs2sxMC4 afLCf3kv4aMnTeBvb9na403dlczz9cAacvsmniSFdpb1+BzMpYbybglU5oYMGhYT2nnCRjXN 6S2nKYt4mjJeeOuxHrdeqQQdVBNYeNfTcPePeqvZ2+bD6u9yxZtaV+wxdpqglosQvjqhOYz7 h50/ZTSq70/npoCq44TzdJKttaYvlW6ziRz0g4RRAqZyoxjYXiy5qj8r8zXJuB11ApZCGuKn /usbji9RYbflAhxFeh4LMmpDVi6BrF30b73Md59K7PuEKN1NxzlWiqqQHZZ9momN0GXLPcGq 4uyfq7yVEy7wP5PMOh6oqscKklE3gFQtq0P1Ki0xqdF6Fq5LPJc+0Db2CYkVIy7Xaa/f74I3 sOfQfEeDylVXR5iDfUJEYv/0DYhOr7q5/0b1kh3M4wkrB4C5jVNHjIIj+RsAK90c3t38OhAl jiSN7Bkwy24Afy8eIu6wWzvhnsQGpZPB+IffmxT1wkTy8UxZKjUWV0C82iphVgCUUi2f9sDV Q/tNcwVWmOS+gdv9Wk6tdGeM+Ee+Qs6YG05jcSoajzF0TL07ajLcayRq2j1Os2CtQ8qu Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 Cc: 79261@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils , martin@kurahaupo.gen.nz X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 8/26/25 08:43, James Feeney wrote: > Your definition of "longstanding" seems a bit disingenuous, since this change, from the default POSIX `date -u` 24 hour format to the 12 hour format, was made in 2020 ? No it wasn't. I just now ran 'date -u' from the coreutils 5.93 (2005) shipped with Solaris 10, and it uses 12 hour format when run in a locale specifying that format. And I'm sure this behavior predates 2005. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 29 11:51:31 2025 Received: (at 79261) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2025 15:51:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42936 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1us1Ny-00042g-C8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:51:30 -0400 Received: from shaun.sig.nz ([103.6.212.24]:44044) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1us1Ns-00041I-De for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:51:27 -0400 Received: from kohi.sig.nz ([114.23.207.132] helo=u2.kohi.sig.nz) by shaun.sig.nz ([103.6.212.24]:587) with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1us1Nm-0001yd-1S for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 15:51:18 +0000 Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com ([209.85.219.181]) by u2.kohi.sig.nz ([192.168.2.224]:587) with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_X25519__ECDSA_SECP256R1_SHA256__AES_128_GCM:128) (Exim 4.96 #2) id 1us1Nl-002B7m-1n for 79261@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 15:51:17 +0000 Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e96e892081eso1673307276.3 for <79261@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzsUKSavvZ7b6QDeXr8A/cQPi2H2dVZJXyMK8ErWV4J+WANvPxe lZHSbtw9xLKmLG+nuxLdyrHDpcvamP8DsYZxNPVHOrQNK4mZBFe3oOqAm2dqHRy02TOQDqs863N 0I7dD0lZaJ4bnqr5eJftI1kEnTcIzyuI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEOT8cKzwqb4BlMJOcA/ffAElkkU30vXjbPEpB7H5KFp4q+C4NLdXqyRYdxXIA08khouL/EwPQ+jCJ8M6gU+N8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:4a09:b0:e97:fef:d52f with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e970fefdd8bmr5107710276.18.1756482675058; Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <22796160af45fa1402d8b648bdad24d7e3762453.camel@nurealm.net> <8a15c79233e5fba47651a5d84700a1d2a1658858.camel@nurealm.net> <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> In-Reply-To: <5510c357fe2d87d68a575642b5135f2a0e331380.camel@nurealm.net> From: Martin D Kealey Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 01:51:02 +1000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXyxIl2wPbGUN0cGQHJ05aCLInziGUOINzdIYWjHA4UtJV96SYXKjJgs3U0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#79261: coreutils 9.7 "date -u" - timezone offset is in the wrong direction To: james@nurealm.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e6ad24063d82fd02" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79261 Cc: 79261@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000e6ad24063d82fd02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 26 Aug 2025, 07:15 James Feeney, wrote: > Hey Martin > > On Mon, 2025-08-25 at 20:10 +1000, Martin D Kealey wrote: > > TL;DR locale and timezone are independent; neither implies the other. > > Thanks for your note. Short version: your point is taken, and I submit a > revised argument, an appeal to ISO 8601. > > My essential question is this: What is the "proper" time *display format* > for "UTC"? > My personal preference? @%s%N My second preference? %F,%T%N That said, I don't think TZ=UTC (or equivalently date -u) should control the time format; that's what LC_TIME is for. Perhaps we would ask for 'date' to have option '-x' to be a synonym for '--iso-full', then we can type 'date -zx'. ('x' because it's adjacent to 'z', to be quick to type.) The International Earth Rotation and Reference Systems Service (IERS) > determines and publishes the difference between UTC and the Earth rotation > angle indicated by UT1. Whenever this difference approaches 0.9 seconds, a > new leap second is announced and applied in all time laboratories. > There have been several proposals to abandon this approach, or to increase the difference limit by a factor of at least 60, which would mean adjustments could be published decades in advance and the next in will be centuries away. The main supposed beneficiaries of leap seconds are astronomers, but in practice this is a chimera: (1) astronomy requires sub-second resolution to identify & track distant objects so allowing even 0.9 seconds drift is too much, and (2) reference time is translated to sidereal time, which itself drifts and jitters due to Earth's axial tilt precession. Almost nobody else benefits from having such a small permitted difference because it's utterly swamped by the seasonal drift of solar noon by several minutes, due to Earth's eccentric orbit. Meanwhile leap seconds are actively problematic to precise timekeeping, especially GPS & financial transactions. -Martin --000000000000e6ad24063d82fd02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, 26 Aug 2025, 07:15 James Feeney, <james@nu= realm.net> wrote:
Hey Martin

On Mon, 2025-08-25 at 20:10 +1000, Martin D Kealey wrote:
> TL;DR locale and timezone are independent; neither implies the other.<= br>
Thanks for your note.=C2=A0 Short version: your point is taken, and I submi= t a revised argument, an appeal to ISO 8601.

My essential question is this:=C2=A0 What is the "proper" time *d= isplay format* for "UTC"?

My personal preference? @%s%N
My second preference? %F,%T%N

That said, I don't think TZ=3DUTC (or equivalently d= ate -u) should control the time format; that's what LC_TIME is for.

Perhaps we would ask for &#= 39;date' to have option '-x' to be a synonym for '--iso-ful= l', then we can type 'date -zx'. ('x' because it's = adjacent to 'z', to be quick to type.)

<= /div>
The International Earth Rotation and Reference Systems Service (IERS) deter= mines and publishes the difference between UTC and the Earth rotation angle= indicated by UT1. Whenever this difference approaches 0.9 seconds, a new l= eap second is announced and applied in all time laboratories.

There have bee= n several proposals to abandon this approach, or to increase the difference= limit by a factor of at least 60, which would mean adjustments could be pu= blished decades in advance and the next in will be centuries away.

The main supposed beneficiaries = of leap seconds are astronomers, but in practice this is a chimera: (1) ast= ronomy requires sub-second resolution to identify & track distant objec= ts so allowing even 0.9 seconds drift is too much, and (2) reference time i= s translated to sidereal time, which itself drifts and jitters due to Earth= 's axial tilt precession.

Almost nobody else benefits from having such a small permitted differ= ence because it's utterly swamped by the seasonal drift of solar noon b= y several minutes, due to Earth's eccentric orbit.

Meanwhile leap seconds are actively problema= tic to precise timekeeping, especially GPS & financial transactions.

-Martin
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