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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) The bug name is maybe too general. I'm still discovering more messes based on changes to `pp.el' for v30.1. You added `pp-use-max-width' in v29. And now you're obsoleting it in v30.1? Not a good smell... A specific (but multifarious) bug to report is this - The defcustom for `pp-default-function' (new in 30.1) has this :tag, which is what users see in the Customize menu: "`pp-emacs-lisp-code' if `pp-use-max-width' else `pp-28'" That's odd enough. Unhelpful, as it means users need to look up three function definitions, just to grok what that menu item might mean. Worse still: It refers to a variable, `pp-use-max-width', that you've deprecated in 30.1! Hard to believe; one can't make this stuff up. You introduce a new option that depends for its understanding on something you tell users is no longer to be used. So to understand that menu item, you need to look up 3 functions, and grok their differences (using the doc, if sufficient). AND then you need to discover that one of those functions is deprecated, and you're told that the `CURRENT-NAME' for the function, that is, the function that should be used instead, is `pp-default-function'. But then ... `pp-default-function' isn't even a function! It's a variable. What's more, the :tag (menu item) that you're trying to figure out is for exactly that same variable!! Poor user - you're the snake who's just discovered it's swallowing its own tail. No doubt there are more problems introduced in `pp.el' in 30.1. I stumbled onto this because plain old lovable workhorse function `pp' has been changed in a backward-incompatible way. I have yet to figure out what all the other damage is. But suffice it to say that even vanilla bookmark.el has been forced to do this: wrap its call to `pp' with (let ((pp-default-function #'pp-28)). Sorry to say it, but this really smells like shoddy work. Standard, longstanding `pp' behavior is now relegated to a function called `pp-28'. You couldn't just keep `pp' as was, and add whatever bells & whistles you're convinced are an improvement as another function or an opt-in option? Is Emacs now trying to "move fast and break things"? `pp' is so basic. This surgery is akin to redefining `cons' to do lazy consing _by default_. I don't even know what to recommend that you do at this point, to clean up the damage done. You've tried to "prettify" PP, but you've made it a whole lot uglier, it seems. Should instead have added a prettified-pretty-print library to ELPA, as a substitute or add-on. Poor little `pp' didn't deserve this (well intentioned) trashing. In GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2025-02-23 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.26100 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.26100.4061) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2 prefix=3D/g/rel/install/emacs-30.1' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) Important settings: value of $LANG: ENU locale-coding-system: cp1252 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 16 03:18:06 2025 Received: (at 78801-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Jun 2025 07:18:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40736 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uR46X-0003Ac-Qb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 03:18:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uR46U-00039N-F2 for 78801-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 03:18:03 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uR46O-0001Gd-IJ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 03:17:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=NwIMp6wELG5UVq1KOJER3Hv1IEEXWugLIU6JAvMKDys=; b=oG2Unpd6yRVm 9lTG3JVoGPYo9YDhdlTaOOeD5+hvWTXAk/E/fQ/DD8A8FHJcVPRdBjCgIIiG6cZdVBdBEsu0vM3H0 f12FKvIsBsHP9waOxQnhQSiZNyhpjrzwYcBWX56yXCnLOHCBtieR2X9dMKhDQCXdA9nlcA8iWprg+ t25BQkz/hUgSbtMu3RZXguPe8nJFz25YXtFUhJRgz15PsC7oP8V8ubqKYHPhERoJtmtrT2lM7A2au b/orL/pXkhtyMYG/ui7ZfLFYVbbIsPvjqNEI2X17r9gJaZXOJjikaBqXXQh3vNZOEsrxQt0vXRX16 DT3qRm0sNGMChR1IIWpMmg==; Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 10:17:54 +0300 Message-Id: <86ecvkp331.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#78801: 30.1; `pp.el' changes for v30 References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78801-done Cc: 78801-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:08:59 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > The bug name is maybe too general. I'm still discovering more messes > based on changes to `pp.el' for v30.1. > > You added `pp-use-max-width' in v29. And now you're obsoleting it in > v30.1? Not a good smell... Please drop the attitude, it doesn't add motivation to read and handle your bug reports. When you report real problems with documentation and code, they are taken and handled seriously even without denigrating epithets and downright disdain for development decisions where we dared -- quelle horreur! -- to disagree with your ideas. > A specific (but multifarious) bug to report is this - > > The defcustom for `pp-default-function' (new in 30.1) has this :tag, > which is what users see in the Customize menu: > > "`pp-emacs-lisp-code' if `pp-use-max-width' else `pp-28'" > > That's odd enough. Unhelpful, as it means users need to look up three > function definitions, just to grok what that menu item might mean. Thanks, I fixed that tag. I also fixed others, which were not clear enough IMO. > Worse still: It refers to a variable, `pp-use-max-width', that you've > deprecated in 30.1! Hard to believe; one can't make this stuff up. > You introduce a new option that depends for its understanding on > something you tell users is no longer to be used. > > So to understand that menu item, you need to look up 3 functions, and > grok their differences (using the doc, if sufficient). AND then you > need to discover that one of those functions is deprecated, and you're > told that the `CURRENT-NAME' for the function, that is, the function > that should be used instead, is `pp-default-function'. > > But then ... `pp-default-function' isn't even a function! It's a > variable. > > What's more, the :tag (menu item) that you're trying to figure out is > for exactly that same variable!! Poor user - you're the snake who's > just discovered it's swallowing its own tail. This is completely uncalled-for and simply not useful. Just showing the tag makes it abundantly clear that it should be improved. > No doubt there are more problems introduced in `pp.el' in 30.1. Here's your attitude again: why "no doubt"? If you have specific issues to report, please do, but insinuations like the above are just that, and will not have any useful effect, let alone improve Emacs. > I > stumbled onto this because plain old lovable workhorse function `pp' > has been changed in a backward-incompatible way. I have yet to figure > out what all the other damage is. But suffice it to say that even > vanilla bookmark.el has been forced to do this: wrap its call to `pp' > with (let ((pp-default-function #'pp-28)). > > Sorry to say it, but this really smells like shoddy work. Standard, > longstanding `pp' behavior is now relegated to a function called > `pp-28'. > > You couldn't just keep `pp' as was, and add whatever bells & whistles > you're convinced are an improvement as another function or an opt-in > option? Is Emacs now trying to "move fast and break things"? > > `pp' is so basic. This surgery is akin to redefining `cons' to do > lazy consing _by default_. > > I don't even know what to recommend that you do at this point, to > clean up the damage done. You've tried to "prettify" PP, but you've > made it a whole lot uglier, it seems. Should instead have added a > prettified-pretty-print library to ELPA, as a substitute or add-on. > Poor little `pp' didn't deserve this (well intentioned) trashing. More bad-mouthing of the Emacs developers and the development process in general. Not useful and unbecoming. Please stop. I'm closing this bug, as the only problem it usefully reported is now fixed on the emacs-30 release branch. From unknown Sat Sep 20 05:02:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator