From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language Resent-From: Bruno Haible Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: automake-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 78481 X-GNU-PR-Package: automake-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, Paul Eggert Cc: gaiusmod2@gmail.com, 78481@debbugs.gnu.org, jemarch@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: Gaius Mulley , automake-patches@gnu.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9?= Marchesi Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.174757925724327 (code B ref -1); Sun, 18 May 2025 14:41:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2025 14:40:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58964 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfCC-0006KE-J8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 10:40:57 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:42302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfCA-0006Jc-8S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1747579230; s=strato-dkim-0003; d=clisp.org; h=Message-ID:Date:Subject:Cc:To:From:Cc:Date:From:Subject:Sender; bh=NwwmeaF7ErBmEKE88I96Q04nq79nlk8RcvSRQio0Tu0=; b=Si7kBFV4LqKErJguNfqa6VBJreu33MutA30iVJmhRTEfwGb5X/nOPML/RichkWf3K2 m8WPrEj2cLvWFxSoaoAg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":Ln4Re0+Ic/6oZXR1YgKryK8brlshOcZlLnY4jECd2hdUURIbZgL8PX2QiTuZ3cdB8X/nqj+aFzsvOBt0ZSCr0I2Ex3fv8Pqp" Received: from nimes.localnet by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 51.3.0 AUTH) with ESMTPSA id N7dcf814IEeUARG (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Bruno Haible Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:29 +0200 Message-ID: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> Organization: GNU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: none client-ip=85.215.255.21; envelope-from=bruno@clisp.org; helo=mo4-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, Reply to this mail thread: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00014.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00015.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00016.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00004.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-03/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00001.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00004.html In Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale: "Use the shell variable A68C, not A68, for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to support for other languages like Go." In Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, with = the rationale: "as mandated by the GCS" The result of these renamings makes no sense to me: 1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'. [1] The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should encompass non-GNU implementations as well. 2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program name, uppercased. 3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but there is no such command. I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2 compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natural (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS. * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there is a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it produces C code, not an executable. And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. * The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-letter variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the program variable 'DC'. * Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency with CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated. I think part of the problem comes from looking at the Go support. * Go is different than Algol 68 and Modula-2. The reference implementation ('go') and the GNU implementation ('gccgo') are multi-purpose programs. To compile a program, one uses $ go build foo.go or $ gccgo build foo.go To compile and run a program, one uses $ go run foo.go or $ gccgo run foo.go * The AC_PROG_GO macro [6] sets variables GOC and GOFLAGS. Which already violates the letter of the GCS [2]. Since the AC_PROG_GO macro already violates the letter of the GCS [2] and is instead following the rule "The compiler options for programming language X is in variable XFLAGS", it is hard to reach both goals at the same time: (I) Following the letter of the GCS [2], (II) Consistency with the existing language support in Autoconf. I can see two reasonable ways of naming the variables; the current proposal from Jos=C3=A9 is, unfortunately, not among them: Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal. GO GOFLAGS A68 A68FLAGS M2 M2FLAGS DC DCFLAGS This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and deprecating the GOC variable. Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal. GOC GOFLAGS A68 or A68C A68FLAGS M2 M2FLAGS DC DFLAGS Here (II) is nearly fulfilled, except that we cannot use M2C as variable, as explained above. So, goal (II) is not entirely reached. Instead, the *FLAGS variable depends on the programming language, not on the compiler command. Goal (I) cannot be reached either, but it's a reasonable comprom= ise nevertheless. Bruno [1] https://gitweb.git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=3Dautomake.git;a=3Dblob;f= =3Dt/a68-demo.sh;h=3Da69d2328bbe7d74c65bdfd19be2e49e7b30a038f;hb=3DHEAD#l19 [2] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Command-Variables.html [3] https://www.mathematik.uni-ulm.de/modula/man/man1/m2c.html [4] https://www.nongnu.org/m2c/ [5] https://github.com/m2sf/m2c [6] https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.7= 2/html_node/Go-Compiler.html From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language Resent-From: "Jose E. Marchesi" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: automake-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 15:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78481 X-GNU-PR-Package: automake-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Bruno Haible Cc: ibuclaw@gdcproject.org, autoconf-patches@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, jklowden@schemamania.org, rdubner@symas.com, 78481@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.cohen@embecosm.com, gaiusmod2@gmail.com X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: Iain Buclaw , autoconf-patches@gnu.org, Paul Eggert , "James K. Lowden" , Robert Dubner , automake-patches@gnu.org, arthur.cohen@embecosm.com, Gaius Mulley Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.17475816871143 (code B ref -1); Sun, 18 May 2025 15:22:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2025 15:21:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfpP-0000IM-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 11:21:27 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:48794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfpL-0000I1-ML for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 11:21:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfpD-0008I9-7s; Sun, 18 May 2025 11:21:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfp9-0006Lh-VU; Sun, 18 May 2025 11:21:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=ZzLOEQd6XIl/IN+qf7JSgfbETGXSLVADlz1mUraHBBE=; b=o+OHaJNt4Ym5obHRLhOW FHtHJ4p/UGyP83xfml06TCMjqR4w61XYOsLx8kcRJA7VkNoM7faTk8weBreGCvdu5dARg3UqpCP+I YeEzG4X1P0NdX+1ocbUJ5H15Dhqe680MqIx8d6xuDDqfexehXhHtUkks2u62oCFCHVIWYNnTWSanP OXSyFFqBhZfkd63qhhwWDyA/IG1wDD5vT15awNSc0Lq0RsRsQJ9AWPngANsS3FD/6468t8XoXaRYm bxoxGCTTdZLH44RCFW+tp69Pl46VFIxtRfO0KZapQR2r/ufHmu7a4qEOHBlrZdvrDOl0Pw55CKf5d 7tVwwa/yszXWSw==; From: "Jose E. Marchesi" In-Reply-To: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> References: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 17:21:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87y0uu7xnl.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) [Adding in CC: - Iain Buclaw, the D front-end maintainer for GCC. - Arthur Cohen, the Rust front-end maintainer for GCC., - James K. Lowden and Robert Dubner, the COBOL front-end maintainers for GCC.] Hi Bruno. > In > Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale: > "Use the shell variable A68C, not A68, > for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to > support for other languages like Go." > > In > Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, wit= h the rationale: > "as mandated by the GCS" > > The result of these renamings makes no sense to me: > > 1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'. = [1] > The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal > to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should encomp= ass > non-GNU implementations as well. Some other GCC compilers use 'gcc' as a prefix, which I think could also be considered "specific for the GNU implementation". If so, we would have: gcc CC g++ CXX gdc DC ga68 A68 gcobol COBOL gm2 M2 objc OBJC gccrs RS gccgo GO > 2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program name, > uppercased. > > 3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but there = is > no such command. Yes I agree, that is bad. > I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2 > compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natur= al > (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS. > > * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there = is > a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it > produces C code, not an executable. > > And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we want > to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > * The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-letter > variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the program > variable 'DC'. > > * Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency with > CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated. > > I think part of the problem comes from looking at the Go support. > > * Go is different than Algol 68 and Modula-2. The reference implementat= ion > ('go') and the GNU implementation ('gccgo') are multi-purpose program= s. > To compile a program, one uses > $ go build foo.go > or > $ gccgo build foo.go > To compile and run a program, one uses > $ go run foo.go > or > $ gccgo run foo.go > > * The AC_PROG_GO macro [6] sets variables GOC and GOFLAGS. Which already > violates the letter of the GCS [2]. > > Since the AC_PROG_GO macro already violates the letter of the GCS [2] and= is > instead following the rule "The compiler options for programming language= X > is in variable XFLAGS", it is hard to reach both goals at the same time: > (I) Following the letter of the GCS [2], > (II) Consistency with the existing language support in Autoconf. > > I can see two reasonable ways of naming the variables; the current propos= al > from Jos=C3=A9 is, unfortunately, not among them: It actually was, initially ^^ > Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal. > > GO GOFLAGS > > A68 A68FLAGS > > M2 M2FLAGS > > DC DCFLAGS > > This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and > deprecating the GOC variable. > > Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal. > > GOC GOFLAGS > > A68 or A68C A68FLAGS > > M2 M2FLAGS > > DC DFLAGS > > Here (II) is nearly fulfilled, except that we cannot use M2C as variabl= e, > as explained above. So, goal (II) is not entirely reached. Instead, the > *FLAGS variable depends on the programming language, not on the compiler > command. Goal (I) cannot be reached either, but it's a reasonable compr= omise > nevertheless. For Algol 68 I always preferred A68/A68FLAGS to A68C/A68CFLAGS, and it matches both proposals A and B. So if the Autoconf and Automake maintainers agree to use Proposal A or Proposal B, I will happily submit patches to change it in Automake and update the Autoconf patch to reflect it. Fortunately the Algol 68 support in Automake hasn't been released yet, so there is still time to correct this. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language References: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> Resent-From: Karl Berry Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: automake-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 21:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78481 X-GNU-PR-Package: automake-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: jemarch@gnu.org Cc: ibuclaw@gdcproject.org, autoconf-patches@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rdubner@symas.com, arthur.cohen@embecosm.com, jklowden@schemamania.org, 78481@debbugs.gnu.org, bruno@clisp.org, gaiusmod2@gmail.com Received: via spool by 78481-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B78481.174760229329502 (code B ref 78481); Sun, 18 May 2025 21:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 78481) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2025 21:04:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60991 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGlBl-0007fh-16 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 17:04:53 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:43154 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGlAQ-0007aW-Eg for 78481@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 17:03:30 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 54IL3IdZ2898808 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:19 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 54IL3IoT2898807; Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:18 -0600 Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 15:03:18 -0600 Message-Id: <202505182103.54IL3IoT2898807@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry In-Reply-To: <87y0uu7xnl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Personally I prefer A68 and A68FLAGS, without the C. (And I'd like to make the Automake release quite soon.) Thanks, Karl (for Automake) From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language Resent-From: ibuclaw@gdcproject.org Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: automake-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 04:30:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78481 X-GNU-PR-Package: automake-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: "Jose E. Marchesi" , Bruno Haible Cc: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rdubner@symas.com, 78481@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.cohen@embecosm.com, jklowden@schemamania.org, gaiusmod2@gmail.com X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, Paul Eggert , Robert Dubner , automake-patches@gnu.org, arthur.cohen@embecosm.com, "James K. Lowden" , Gaius Mulley Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.17477153622723 (code B ref -1); Tue, 20 May 2025 04:30:05 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2025 04:29:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51122 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uHEbQ-0000hb-2S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 May 2025 00:29:22 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:40190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uHB8T-0004Rt-9N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 May 2025 20:47:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uHB8M-0006uo-Bn; Mon, 19 May 2025 20:47:06 -0400 Received: from mout-p-101.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.151]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uHB8J-0004cE-W4; Mon, 19 May 2025 20:47:06 -0400 Received: from smtp102.mailbox.org (smtp102.mailbox.org [10.196.197.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-101.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4b1bV627qVz9sNt; Tue, 20 May 2025 02:46:54 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gdcproject.org; s=MBO0001; t=1747702014; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GOINCMbEgQGwfIz38Cinfiif5jad+mpXbpEvu6cvUCQ=; b=OVC7oIpfhnZa7S+T+CdgvtGcOb0DjXwlnSd/SPBqmQ2YsiiLrxNIBbrOI5Z2UF7BPp2EyZ kQj0M/Krg8Gye4OCgKax5x3lbK7PJNILpQuh3vAdqD0P64dtUmnpA7/95z3xRXmqVepnZL +BaJhqSuJwh/nS47keE7JV6IqlLogD0lq5Xz894BxqcbSbDPeuWj7/0TUC9puj006ppCL/ 5oyX16o5cvbqYKaMOdqMnK5I4wEoSKyn/3eFVCh+mmMh450gUqUVPP6449yikUILAJsbmS CBpOK5x+prt+9iPydiDFhjZMRXxbHIApG08Lgm0MDl2LD6331hHanzHhfbvI4g== Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 02:46:51 +0200 (CEST) From: ibuclaw@gdcproject.org Message-ID: <392619657.222438.1747702012009@office.mailbox.org> In-Reply-To: <87y0uu7xnl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> <87y0uu7xnl.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.151; envelope-from=ibuclaw@gdcproject.org; helo=mout-p-101.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 May 2025 00:29:16 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > On 18/05/2025 17:21 CEST Jose E. Marchesi wrote: >=20 > =20 > [Adding in CC: > - Iain Buclaw, the D front-end maintainer for GCC. > - Arthur Cohen, the Rust front-end maintainer for GCC., > - James K. Lowden and Robert Dubner, the COBOL front-end maintainers > for GCC.] >=20 > Hi Bruno. >=20 > > In > > Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale= : > > "Use the shell variable A68C, not A68, > > for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to > > support for other languages like Go." > > > > In > > Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, w= ith the rationale: > > "as mandated by the GCS" > > > > The result of these renamings makes no sense to me: > > > > 1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'= . [1] > > The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal > > to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should enco= mpass > > non-GNU implementations as well. >=20 > Some other GCC compilers use 'gcc' as a prefix, which I think could also > be considered "specific for the GNU implementation". If so, we would > have: >=20 > gcc CC > g++ CXX > gdc DC > ga68 A68 > gcobol COBOL > gm2 M2 > objc OBJC > gccrs RS > gccgo GO >=20 > > 2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program na= me, > > uppercased. > > > > 3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but ther= e is > > no such command. >=20 > Yes I agree, that is bad. >=20 > > I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula= -2 > > compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > > > * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be nat= ural > > (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS. > > > > * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because ther= e is > > a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, = it > > produces C code, not an executable. > > > > And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we wa= nt > > to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > > > * The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-lett= er > > variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the prog= ram > > variable 'DC'. > > > > * Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency w= ith > > CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated. > > WRT D env flags, this was added quite some time ago, I can't say I recall t= he rationale, but mirroring CC/CFLAGS seems to be what was done. However, within GCC configure/make scripts, the env variables are GDC and G= DCFLAGS respectively. In the DM implementation of D, they also used DC/HOST_DC in their make scri= pts at one point. This is now dropped in favour of DMD/HOST_DMD. > > Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal. > > > > GO GOFLAGS > > > > A68 A68FLAGS > > > > M2 M2FLAGS > > > > DC DCFLAGS > > If you were to go with this convention, I think it would make more sense to= name the flags D2 and D2FLAGS. Pedantically, it *is* version 2 of the language (and there's no appetite to= change the versioning from 2.xxx to 3.x) - though no one expresses it that= way in conversation, it's either D or dlang. Iain. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#78481] [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language Resent-From: Gaius Mulley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: automake-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 11:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 78481 X-GNU-PR-Package: automake-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Bruno Haible Cc: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 78481@debbugs.gnu.org, jemarch@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, Paul Eggert , automake-patches@gnu.org, =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9?= Marchesi Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.174774161111594 (code B ref -1); Tue, 20 May 2025 11:47:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2025 11:46:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56064 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uHLQo-00030t-Fd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Tue, 20 May 2025 01:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gaius by lancelot with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1uHIA5-00FJt6-1J; Tue, 20 May 2025 09:17:21 +0100 From: Gaius Mulley References: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 09:17:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> (Bruno Haible's message of "Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:29 +0200") Message-ID: <87zff74rxq.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::331; envelope-from=gaiusmod2@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x331.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Bruno Haible writes: > I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2 > compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gaiusmod2[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (gaiusmod2[at]gmail.com) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 May 2025 07:46:49 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) Bruno Haible writes: > I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2 > compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. > > * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natural > (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS. > > * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there is > a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it > produces C code, not an executable. > > > Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal. > > GO GOFLAGS > > A68 A68FLAGS > > M2 M2FLAGS > > DC DCFLAGS > > This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and > deprecating the GOC variable. > > Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal. > > GOC GOFLAGS > > A68 or A68C A68FLAGS > > M2 M2FLAGS > > DC DFLAGS > Hi Bruno, from the modula-2 perspective - this looks great thanks regards, Gaius From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:50:09 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Bruno Haible Subject: bug#78481: closed (Re: [bug#78518] [PATCH] algol68: rename A68C and A68CFLAGS back to A68 and A68FLAGS) Message-ID: References: <202505212018.54LKIaGk3194611@freefriends.org> <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 78481 X-Gnu-PR-Package: automake-patches X-Gnu-PR-Keywords: patch Reply-To: 78481@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 20:19:03 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1747858743-21661-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1747858743-21661-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #78481: [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language which was filed against the automake-patches package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 78481@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 78481: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D78481 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1747858743-21661-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 78481-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 May 2025 20:18:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53284 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uHptg-0005b6-W1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 May 2025 16:18:41 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:36450 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uHptd-0005ac-AY; Wed, 21 May 2025 16:18:38 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 54LKIa9K3194612 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 21 May 2025 14:18:36 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 54LKIaGk3194611; Wed, 21 May 2025 14:18:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 14:18:36 -0600 Message-Id: <202505212018.54LKIaGk3194611@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: jemarch@gnu.org Subject: Re: [bug#78518] [PATCH] algol68: rename A68C and A68CFLAGS back to A68 and A68FLAGS In-Reply-To: <87frgyhq9f.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 78481-done Cc: 78518@debbugs.gnu.org, 78518-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 78033-done@debbugs.gnu.org, 78481-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Installed, and closing this (and related bugs from the same discussion). Thanks Jose. -k ------------=_1747858743-21661-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 May 2025 14:40:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58964 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfCC-0006KE-J8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 10:40:57 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:42302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfCA-0006Jc-8S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 May 2025 10:40:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfC1-0002Zv-2c; Sun, 18 May 2025 10:40:45 -0400 Received: from mo4-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([85.215.255.21]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1uGfBy-00017k-RW; 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Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Bruno Haible To: autoconf-patches@gnu.org, Paul Eggert Subject: Re: [PATCH V2] Support for the Algol 68 language Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 16:40:29 +0200 Message-ID: <5211192.097qLLJo0e@nimes> Organization: GNU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: none client-ip=85.215.255.21; envelope-from=bruno@clisp.org; helo=mo4-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Gaius Mulley , automake-patches@gnu.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= Marchesi X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, Reply to this mail thread: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00014.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00015.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-01/msg00016.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-02/msg00004.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-03/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-04/msg00001.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00000.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/autoconf-patches/2025-05/msg00004.html In Paul Eggert renamed the variable A68 =E2=86=92 A68C, with the rationale: "Use the shell variable A68C, not A68, for the compiler. This is for consistency of names compared to support for other languages like Go." In Jos=C3=A9 Marchesi renamed the variable A68FLAGS =E2=86=92 A68CFLAGS, with = the rationale: "as mandated by the GCS" The result of these renamings makes no sense to me: 1) The GNU Algol 68 compiler is meant to be named 'ga68', not 'ga68c'. [1] The prefix 'g' is specific for the GNU implementation; it's normal to ignore it here, when we talk about conventions that should encompass non-GNU implementations as well. 2) The GCS [2] has examples where the variable name is the program name, uppercased. 3) As a result, users would be looking for a command 'a68c', but there is no such command. I'm bringing this up because a similar case will be with the GNU Modula-2 compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. * The GNU Modula-2 compiler is called 'gm2'. Therefore it will be natural (per GCS [2]) to call the variables M2 and M2FLAGS. * Calling the variable M2C would be very very confusing, because there is a Modula-2 to C translator called 'm2c' [3][4][5] and, unlike gm2, it produces C code, not an executable. And the big picture should also consider the GNU D compiler, when we want to support it in Autoconf and Automake. * The GNU D compiler is called 'gdc'. Therefore, and because a 1-letter variable 'D' would be really odd, it makes sense to called the program variable 'DC'. * Whether the flags variable is then called DFLAGS (for consistency with CFLAGS) or DCFLAGS (per GCS [2]), can be debated. I think part of the problem comes from looking at the Go support. * Go is different than Algol 68 and Modula-2. The reference implementation ('go') and the GNU implementation ('gccgo') are multi-purpose programs. To compile a program, one uses $ go build foo.go or $ gccgo build foo.go To compile and run a program, one uses $ go run foo.go or $ gccgo run foo.go * The AC_PROG_GO macro [6] sets variables GOC and GOFLAGS. Which already violates the letter of the GCS [2]. Since the AC_PROG_GO macro already violates the letter of the GCS [2] and is instead following the rule "The compiler options for programming language X is in variable XFLAGS", it is hard to reach both goals at the same time: (I) Following the letter of the GCS [2], (II) Consistency with the existing language support in Autoconf. I can see two reasonable ways of naming the variables; the current proposal from Jos=C3=A9 is, unfortunately, not among them: Proposal A: Define (I) as the more important goal. GO GOFLAGS A68 A68FLAGS M2 M2FLAGS DC DCFLAGS This implies changing AC_PROG_GO so that it defines the GO variable, and deprecating the GOC variable. Proposal B: Define (II) as the more important goal. GOC GOFLAGS A68 or A68C A68FLAGS M2 M2FLAGS DC DFLAGS Here (II) is nearly fulfilled, except that we cannot use M2C as variable, as explained above. So, goal (II) is not entirely reached. Instead, the *FLAGS variable depends on the programming language, not on the compiler command. Goal (I) cannot be reached either, but it's a reasonable comprom= ise nevertheless. Bruno [1] https://gitweb.git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=3Dautomake.git;a=3Dblob;f= =3Dt/a68-demo.sh;h=3Da69d2328bbe7d74c65bdfd19be2e49e7b30a038f;hb=3DHEAD#l19 [2] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Command-Variables.html [3] https://www.mathematik.uni-ulm.de/modula/man/man1/m2c.html [4] https://www.nongnu.org/m2c/ [5] https://github.com/m2sf/m2c [6] https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.7= 2/html_node/Go-Compiler.html ------------=_1747858743-21661-1--