From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 04 07:03:29 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jan 2011 12:03:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa5bs-0008A4-RQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 07:03:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa21s-00034W-OJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:14:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa28m-0001qi-DV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:21:13 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RFC_ABUSE_POST, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:53715) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa28m-0001qd-B5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:21:12 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43732 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pa28k-0006Oe-QI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:21:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa28j-0001q3-L2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:21:10 -0500 Received: from ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net ([150.101.137.143]:1206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pa28j-0001pj-1o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2011 03:21:09 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtEGAOJkIk15LGD5/2dsb2JhbACWFwEBjhx0rUqHGy6GU4VKBIUhhWM Received: from ppp121-44-96-249.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net (HELO puma.rapttech.com.au) ([121.44.96.249]) by ipmail05.adl6.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 04 Jan 2011 18:51:05 +1030 From: Tim Cross To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 19:21:03 +1100 Message-ID: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 07:03:28 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) According to the documentation for scroll-bar-mode, the way to set/change scroll-bar settings from within elisp code is to use the set-scroll-bar-mode function. However, this function is only defined when run under graphic capable environments, such as X, but not in other environments such as the Linux console. This means that if you don't want your elisp or .emacs to raise an error, you also need to wrap calls to this function inside something like (when display-graphic-p ...). This is not required for other display related functions that depend on an environment requiring support for graphics i.e. tool-bar-mode. For consistency and to help reduce environment related bugs, I would like to request a feature enhancement whereby set-scroll-bar-mode is defined in all environmennts, even if it is just a stub / do nothing operation in environments that do not support scroll bars. thanks, Tim In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.22.0) of 2011-01-04 on puma Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10900000 configured using `configure '--prefix=/usr/local'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 10 17:51:28 2011 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2011 22:51:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PcQaF-0006kS-OB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:51:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PcQaE-0006kI-IC for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:51:27 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55943) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PcQhM-0005az-Tr; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:58:49 -0500 To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> From: Glenn Morris X-Spook: PLO warfare STARLAN Exon Shell infowar UOP Saudi Arabia X-Ran: D1%MW+!6[u9(UyRe~"p]SdIlV55:`ra*PeZj-bL[3r,2@!^d5Pm|lP0 (Tim Cross's message of "Tue\, 04 Jan 2011 19\:21\:03 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) Tim Cross wrote: > According to the documentation for scroll-bar-mode, the way to > set/change scroll-bar settings from within elisp code is to use the > set-scroll-bar-mode function. However, this function is only defined > when run under graphic capable environments, such as X, but not in other > environments such as the Linux console. > > This means that if you don't want your elisp or .emacs to raise an > error, you also need to wrap calls to this function inside something > like (when display-graphic-p ...). This is not required for other > display related functions that depend on an environment requiring > support for graphics i.e. tool-bar-mode. It's not clear to me whether you mean --without-x builds or --with-x builds started with -nw (or both), but in either case: In a with-x build: emacs -Q -nw C-h f tool-bar-mode tool-bar-mode is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `tool-bar.el'. C-h f set-scroll-bar-mode set-scroll-bar-mode is a compiled Lisp function in `scroll-bar.el'. (tool-bar-mode 1) ; no error (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left) ; no error In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is defined. Thus, I see no inconsistency here and don't understand your request. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 10 18:38:09 2011 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2011 23:38:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PcRJR-0007nZ-9J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:38:09 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PcRJP-0007nN-En for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:38:08 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAAcpK01FxIbi/2dsb2JhbACkSnS7T4VMBIRnjiQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.60,303,1291611600"; d="scan'208";a="87571032" Received: from 69-196-134-226.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.134.226]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Jan 2011 18:45:33 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D6FC7660DC; Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:45:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments Message-ID: References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:45:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:58:48 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Tim Cross , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is > defined. That's the problem. I know Emacs has many such things already, but I think these are all bugs: I think we should adopt a convention that functions/variables should either be specific to one particular kind of display, or be display-independent. Since (set-)scroll-bar-mode is not specific to one particular kind of display (it is shared by w32, X11, and ns), it should exist independently from any particular display. Similarly, if a function doesn't signal an error when run in -nw, it should generally work just as well in --without-x. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 13 04:37:58 2011 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jan 2011 09:37:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdJd0-0007V9-Lb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 04:37:58 -0500 Received: from harpegolden.net ([65.99.215.13]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdJcy-0007Uy-Ph for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 04:37:57 -0500 Received: from [87.198.55.89] (87-198-55-89.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.55.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "David De La Harpe Golden", Issuer "David De La Harpe Golden Personal CA rev 3" (verified OK)) by harpegolden.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D0AE6841D; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:45:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4D2EC9B6.4090002@harpegolden.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:45:26 +0000 From: David De La Harpe Golden User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101226 Icedove/3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Glenn Morris , Tim Cross , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) On 10/01/11 23:45, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Since (set-)scroll-bar-mode is not > specific to one particular kind of display (it is shared by w32, X11, > and ns), it should exist independently from any particular display. Plus there's no real reason in principle we couldn't draw text-mode scroll bars on text terminals too, like old msdos borland ides etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 13 07:13:01 2011 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jan 2011 12:13:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdM33-0003yY-0f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:13:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdM31-0003yN-B4 for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:12:59 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdMAF-0001Sq-TG; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:20:27 -0500 From: Eli Zaretskii To: David De La Harpe Golden In-reply-to: <4D2EC9B6.4090002@harpegolden.net> (message from David De La Harpe Golden on Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:45:26 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> <4D2EC9B6.4090002@harpegolden.net> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 07:20:27 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:45:26 +0000 > From: David De La Harpe Golden > Cc: Tim Cross , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org > > On 10/01/11 23:45, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > Since (set-)scroll-bar-mode is not > > specific to one particular kind of display (it is shared by w32, X11, > > and ns), it should exist independently from any particular display. > > Plus there's no real reason in principle we couldn't draw text-mode > scroll bars on text terminals too, like old msdos borland ides etc. There's one valid reason, as usual: someone should write the code. Volunteers are welcome (no, I don't). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 15 18:29:59 2011 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Jan 2011 23:30:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PeFZH-0007ca-7C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:29:59 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PeFZE-0007cN-UB for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:29:57 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35776) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PeFga-0000Fi-Iq for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:37:32 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <19762.12220.298428.361256@fencepost.gnu.org> Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:37:32 -0500 Resent-From: Glenn Morris Resent-To: 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=C0bqZ2bDIpFiqKiS/7/CJib1urH6W44AQ0wB5f61nI4=; b=OODRkfltqK+ZZrGkzmzxLpU23XluouBZ+iFSPBVM1xK0iPJ0ZQGD0u+36oJBMP97vK 7D5beWnDSEPTSgrgT8+IOYng5NwPx8vuQTo+Te4H+8k8FVckYQr11Gv1cpNdmiV9EeQ3 JBKUVxEStDu+xcb+jvF5XcXGyig4uVh/4xsn0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=rNiBbPwDsXZfSFZgr/9KptLpUmoSqe+sknVQ83kH/9LjQvzaJMpXd8xLaF9Ah1FbPA Uh/GXRKBfBZvL3GW+ReIqYaMdU+J//7PD6u2hAaYzZxaMPr+8TS71C9gp7g9bvjgVQIL dFwibYPi85HkI7nAH5jg+bkPrAv1X+PiWoKmM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba18199878a68f0499eaf3fa X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 10:31:32 +1100 From: Tim Cross To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments X-Bogosity: no, spamicity=0.016172, v1.1.5 X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:29:59 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -5.9 (-----) --90e6ba18199878a68f0499eaf3fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Glenn Morris wrote: > Tim Cross wrote: > > > According to the documentation for scroll-bar-mode, the way to > > set/change scroll-bar settings from within elisp code is to use the > > set-scroll-bar-mode function. However, this function is only defined > > when run under graphic capable environments, such as X, but not in other > > environments such as the Linux console. > > > > This means that if you don't want your elisp or .emacs to raise an > > error, you also need to wrap calls to this function inside something > > like (when display-graphic-p ...). This is not required for other > > display related functions that depend on an environment requiring > > support for graphics i.e. tool-bar-mode. > > It's not clear to me whether you mean --without-x builds or --with-x > builds started with -nw (or both), but in either case: > > In a with-x build: > emacs -Q -nw > > C-h f tool-bar-mode > tool-bar-mode is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `tool-bar.el'. > > C-h f set-scroll-bar-mode > set-scroll-bar-mode is a compiled Lisp function in `scroll-bar.el'. > > (tool-bar-mode 1) ; no error > > (set-scroll-bar-mode 'left) ; no error > > > In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is > defined. > > Thus, I see no inconsistency here and don't understand your request. > OK, I just tried to re-create the error I was getting and now it isn't occurring. I have updated emacs since logging the report, but cannot see anything obvious in the change log that would explain the difference, so not sure. For the record, here is what I did originally and which does not repeat the problem now. 1. Built emacs under X with the GTK libs (emacs from bzr 24.0.50). 2. Login under the Linux console and run emacs --debug-init Originally, I got a backtrace with a void function error for set-scroll-bar-mode. Fixed this by putting the call inside a when block which tested for a window-syste of X. However, noticed that this was not an issue with tool-bar-mode. I could place a direct top-level call to tool-bar-mode in my .emacs without needing to wrap it in a test. This was the original inconsistency I observed. i.e. tool-bar-mode was defined but set-scroll-bar-mode was not when running an emacs built with X under a Linux console (not an xterm or X console). C-h f tool-bar-mode returns docs on that function as would be expected. C-h f set-scroll-bar-mode fails saying the function is not defined. After removing the when block from my .emacs and just having a top level call to set-scrolll-bar-mode and restarting emacs just now, I no longer get the error and backtrace. C-h f returns info on both functions. I cannot see anything in the change log which would explain why it was not working and now is, so I guess I must have screwed up somewhere. Sorry for the noise. The main reason for the report was I figured we should have consistency - either *all* graphics display related functions are always defined i.e. as tool-bar-mode appears to be or *all* of them are defined only for environments where they maie sense, such as X, but above all, avoid situations where some appear to be defined and some do not. Personally, I think they should all be defined regardless of the environment, even if in many environments, they are just function stubs that don't actually do anything. This avoids having to remember to put such code inside tests and to somehow know which such functions are defined in which environments. For the envrionments I've tested, this does not appear to be the case for tool-bar-mode and set-scroll-bar-mode, so all appears to be fine for at least these two cases. thanks, Tim --90e6ba18199878a68f0499eaf3fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Glenn M= orris <rgm@gnu.org&= gt; wrote:
Tim Cross wrote:

> According to the documentation for scroll-bar-mode, the way to
> set/change scroll-bar settings from within elisp code is to use the > set-scroll-bar-mode function. However, this function is only defined > when run under graphic capable environments, such as X, but not in oth= er
> environments such as the Linux console.
>
> This means that if you don't want your elisp or .emacs to raise an=
> error, you also need to wrap calls to this function inside something > like (when display-graphic-p ...). This is not required for other
> display related functions that depend on an environment requiring
> support for graphics i.e. tool-bar-mode.

It's not clear to me whether you mean --without-x builds or --with-x builds started with -nw (or both), but in either case:

In a with-x build:
emacs -Q -nw

C-h f tool-bar-mode
=A0tool-bar-mode is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `tool-bar.el&#= 39;.

C-h f set-scroll-bar-mode
=A0set-scroll-bar-mode is a compiled Lisp function in `scroll-bar.el'.<= br>
(tool-bar-mode 1) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; no error

(set-scroll-bar-mode 'left) =A0 ; no error


In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is
defined.

Thus, I see no inconsistency here and don't understand your request.

OK, I just tried to re-create the error I= was getting and now it isn't occurring. I have updated emacs since log= ging the report, but cannot see anything obvious in the change log that wou= ld explain the difference, so not sure. For the record, here is what I did = originally and which does not repeat the problem now.=A0

1. Built emacs under X with the GTK libs (emacs from bz= r 24.0.50).
2. Login under the Linux console and run emacs --debu= g-init

Originally, I got a backtrace with a void f= unction error for set-scroll-bar-mode. Fixed this by putting the call insid= e a when block which tested for a window-syste of X. However, noticed that = this was not an issue with tool-bar-mode. I could place a direct top-level = call to tool-bar-mode in my .emacs without needing to wrap it in a test. Th= is was the original inconsistency I observed. i.e. tool-bar-mode was define= d but set-scroll-bar-mode was not when running an emacs built with X under = a Linux console (not an xterm or X console).=A0

C-h f tool-bar-mode returns docs on that function as wo= uld be expected.
C-h f set-scroll-bar-mode fails saying the funct= ion is not defined.

After removing the when block = from my .emacs and just having a top level call to set-scrolll-bar-mode and= restarting emacs just now, I no longer get the error and backtrace. C-h f = returns info on both functions.=A0

I cannot see anything in the change log which would exp= lain why it was not working and now is, so I guess I must have screwed up s= omewhere. Sorry for the noise.=A0

The main reason = for the report was I figured we should have consistency - either *all* grap= hics display related functions are always defined i.e. as tool-bar-mode app= ears to be or *all* of them are defined only for environments where they ma= ie sense, such as X, but above all, avoid situations where some appear to b= e defined and some do not.=A0
Personally, I think they should all be defined regardless of the envir= onment, even if in many environments, they are just function stubs that don= 't actually do anything. This avoids having to remember to put such cod= e inside tests and to somehow know which such functions are defined in whic= h environments. For the envrionments I've tested, this does not appear = to be the case for tool-bar-mode and set-scroll-bar-mode, so all appears to= be fine for at least these two cases.

thanks,

Tim


--90e6ba18199878a68f0499eaf3fa-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 04 15:29:28 2021 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2021 20:29:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtbex-00070j-RV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:29:28 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40884) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtbes-000708-KP for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:29:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=l9BzbN85zQ0gacqxbbNSoHCXkV31cKP19VifbEh6wTo=; b=O3RocHRqMVKat1bQQT38nUAd+b 88vfxWcnuTUaei4QXDHNqCoiRERuTlhKnB85Vren8fo5bvRv8NLBH5Yd5n09Ok/Lat6/kltfSDihx PghRnSyLfIiedFyCiJLfDnTx7QkDWlk5LVT9arCiRWhodNkhxMifgK3t+yPpIlQurHLg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtbei-0000E5-CI; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:29:15 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> X-Now-Playing: Kraftwerk's _Exceller 8_: "Klingklang" Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:29:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:45:32 -0500") Message-ID: <87y2502jxm.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier writes: >> In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is >> defined. > > That's the problem. I know Emacs has many such things already, but > I think these are all bugs: I think we sh [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Glenn Morris , Tim Cross , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: >> In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is >> defined. > > That's the problem. I know Emacs has many such things already, but > I think these are all bugs: I think we should adopt a convention that > functions/variables should either be specific to one particular kind of > display, or be display-independent. Since (set-)scroll-bar-mode is not > specific to one particular kind of display (it is shared by w32, X11, > and ns), it should exist independently from any particular display. I think that makes sense conceptually, but I think that people that do a --without-x build do so for a particular reason: They want to have as lean an Emacs as possible. (Otherwise -- why bother?) So we could certainly do this (and similarly for a bunch of other stuff): diff --git a/lisp/loadup.el b/lisp/loadup.el index ed1570e778..b7e63cc656 100644 --- a/lisp/loadup.el +++ b/lisp/loadup.el @@ -260,8 +260,7 @@ (load "jit-lock") (load "mouse") -(if (boundp 'x-toolkit-scroll-bars) - (load "scroll-bar")) +(load "scroll-bar") (load "select") (load "emacs-lisp/timer") (load "emacs-lisp/easymenu") But I'm not sure we'd be doing anybody any favours. Does anybody have an opinion here? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 04 15:29:26 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2021 20:29:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtbew-00070b-M8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:29:26 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40900) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mtbev-00070B-26 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:29:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=NcSL8nIiEnuo4fgA9UvD1xz0Bpk1MS4B9Pa6BkiWhXc=; b=hIm5ZyngFOI/JUtzY2eWNREyBo ceHfS+k18K2lhS2LqYD8t1Of8Xzq1EnVF9zP/tSL5yndtCKbXiRyUs0uI11W40yduekA+T4KAUa5V 6wDe6yA9MyTHaBKq8UyPZWSEf4beeVFFa9IFIq9HeqqAd1VwjIrMzF1g/mVuc8Hls9mo=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtben-0000EA-D4 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:29:19 +0100 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:29:17 +0100 Message-Id: <87wnkk2jxe.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #7782 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 7782 + moreinfo quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 7782 + moreinfo quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 28 22:05:48 2021 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 03:05:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2PHg-0001KO-Bn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 22:05:48 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f175.google.com ([209.85.215.175]:33542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2PHe-0001K4-9Z for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 22:05:46 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 7so4720816pgn.0 for <7782@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Sl+kZSg9gbWUz4wPYnl/X9OPCa1cx9gvAf9cj34BZ4=; b=sxFty02wFE+OKmuTBI9gbAMmZIVATY2gJIZKkzCdv8MaWtFr7kKmAvXDYd9jMkU3fP SAIo6Fs6m5CvM+z7eC9VdE7c6239ZSo5B8iysrEzDgBoVD0QK7w98e56noK8mfajCL7G iBDqsINL7DZSdNm3usmKQVof/J0wnI6Iu/RhAoEz7+2eYenCF9GGJFHirePjvHDjX+p2 5sEwgwi+VdXPaWrO5043KNn54hYTsEA08m9uFHhAJFWalcAVk+1KfyFYPKb3X9KsEkR7 SawYyDOFek0e4xQ9mlC/TT1Jca+4+pS3sT0I7f5NQzP7v8HFJj5/PBHNk7qfp8QVQLfH Bf7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337neheNX8dGdwCYWuWK1ZueG0BD/DQS/CNqK8cSevY8ODsJWLJ SdpDfu5U6CpQxzvVnAvku7Vl0E4EzBAbHxNb/U/iVirn X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLVFpfP5+89e1DmaPqitq7s/0IB+54SN5JkxjAdw9nz+HRcXUTuElGMLHPBOEZMkGRCnoBEE6g+It1Qw8lBsE= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d41:: with SMTP id o1mr21417495pgm.325.1640747140812; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:05:40 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87y2502jxm.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat, 04 Dec 2021 21:29:09 +0100") References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> <87y2502jxm.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:05:40 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Glenn Morris , Tim Cross , Stefan Monnier , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>> In a without-x build, neither tool-bar-mode nor set-scroll-bar-mode is >>> defined. >> >> That's the problem. I know Emacs has many such things already, but >> I think these are all bugs: I think we should adopt a convention that >> functions/variables should either be specific to one particular kind of >> display, or be display-independent. Since (set-)scroll-bar-mode is not >> specific to one particular kind of display (it is shared by w32, X11, >> and ns), it should exist independently from any particular display. > > I think that makes sense conceptually, but I think that people that do > a --without-x build do so for a particular reason: They want to have as > lean an Emacs as possible. (Otherwise -- why bother?) [snip] > Does anybody have an opinion here? How many kilobytes does not preloading it save? It might be that the savings are so small that the code simplification is more worthwhile. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 29 09:49:44 2021 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2021 14:49:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2aGu-0004eO-M3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:49:44 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42328) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1n2aGs-0004e7-Uz for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:49:43 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WzgHV/Tevg0tbwdhunXTpU1WMVlyBzocJvH9gNyVfvY=; b=TzVDtIUWJKoKRnfN9nHqTsDZMv 40fScpk27XmdidUbDvGYrWlsiEx/EQ/RBNADn0vwY5E6Ke7Js2NFpgrj57naDDAal2AjyKO0uQAB3 /VNs7lARpbWN1QiaVj2ABOF8NRG1LVpINFOAigJbfNO79qZd/QlB3XsilYLICKUZzMbs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n2aGi-0006tX-8z; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:49:34 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> <87y2502jxm.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEX+/OfJs5vCkmie UT0mERNgJSN0VUb///98IOfRAAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+UMHQ4oMnLKkPIAAAG4SURB VDjLbdNRcusgDAVQ+60gOBso0jT/RUNWgFdg6H+dNvtfwrsS4JC0zPSjPkZcyWSantfM01mIJE2v QI43ieUVHJGXUmL6BSKylVLyKyyM93UNMJ/wt6B8g5Pr1b1Cfb6VjAf91LdpnqlBzBMZzAvinP5R BynTzs4WYXFoIID7nXyDRegZ2hYP5FgrSQR8OXdU43aE7fAdluHs/DdEhd09QCuJHo1ZjaB9owz6 Th1queXdkmJSChbKe229Qz5gqUDveI75dvBErkJE/dLB2zQ0kre02wOWgB0sdVJ2ExR2a8x9sOys IB0C4qNUENkl/FiDFTBbjBtw3yR820Ry2+GIhVmuN5E8ABmcie8ijEjSwRsEudxwjGYd4YyD5RYC tzuFtSoE3G+8jlL5gFbqyhpApPwCQiz8KlYMqh5hpRa57hqAL4+0FRgQNNlaS+VhB04IBNi0jw7o WuyGXhNGFR99II4BxXSEOiAg22Vow2alIIgVi33aktdhhy793HYXVr1XuDTUn2N96i1MBqIfTl8s a+r9lQb1KqP05wjcIKcKmiqPkAZYFaj+Kuzf3kfBSBqkJ1jz+h9Ajeeus5t/rAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMi0yOVQxNDo0MDo1MCswMDowMKavV5oAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5 ADIwMjEtMTItMjlUMTQ6NDA6NTArMDA6MDDX8u8mAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Four Tet's _Pause_: "You Could Ruin My Day" Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:49:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:05:40 -0800") Message-ID: <87ee5v8o05.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > How many kilobytes does not preloading it save? It might be that the > savings are so small that the code simplification is more worthwhile. I think it's less a matter of kilobytes, but more a sense of "cleanliness" that some people want to achieve. On the other hand, there's not really much to win to cater to that feeling, so perhaps we s [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Glenn Morris , Tim Cross , Stefan Monnier , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > How many kilobytes does not preloading it save? It might be that the > savings are so small that the code simplification is more worthwhile. I think it's less a matter of kilobytes, but more a sense of "cleanliness" that some people want to achieve. On the other hand, there's not really much to win to cater to that feeling, so perhaps we should always define functions like that. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 22 09:26:17 2022 Received: (at 7782) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2022 14:26:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36071 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLN-0003kD-CO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 09:26:17 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:46470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLL-0003jx-JY for 7782@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 09:26:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Qt48st8EKhPtAiBJ0z8/B1xaAEf9ZKlb7uzkA6DdR84=; b=W2cFTzSfoWwPmXbWQxSpDsyXAD 1zEVDB+NaNihJYb1zcQpZ4HKopEPdCUEi/9uHDrBQl088ikKW9QK1jl28GgDT4OZwqQ1v/y+SiaNG 5ImGAjJsHoMrTNp+38YHl+W9SXA08iqGMhXE1fYdk2RhUxlU6Mh0ixCAV5CTdI/LZC0U=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLB-00061r-BK; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:26:07 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#7782: 24.0.50; 24.0.50: set-scroll-bar-mode missing under non-GUI environments References: <87aajhgjv4.fsf@puma.rapttech.com.au> <87y2502jxm.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee5v8o05.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: Richard Strange's _The Live Rise of Richard Strange_: "I Won't Run Away" Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:26:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87ee5v8o05.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:49:30 +0100") Message-ID: <87pmojj18j.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think it's less a matter of kilobytes, but more a sense of > "cleanliness" that some people want to achieve. On the other hand, > there's not really much to win to cater to that feeling, so perhap [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7782 Cc: Glenn Morris , Tim Cross , Stefan Monnier , 7782@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think it's less a matter of kilobytes, but more a sense of > "cleanliness" that some people want to achieve. On the other hand, > there's not really much to win to cater to that feeling, so perhaps we > should always define functions like that. Nobody seemed to have a strong opinion one way or another, but pre-loading these things in all configurations may lead to regressions for people (they may be doing (fboundp 'scroll-bar-scale) etc to see whether we're in a non-X build), so I think it makes more sense to change nothing here, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 22 09:26:20 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2022 14:26:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36074 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLQ-0003kS-Lq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 09:26:20 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:46486) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLP-0003k3-DU for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 09:26:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gef8iO0AbBjSLR3iOYsH/+5bvQZoePRkIKMrAWuGMOM=; b=Xk2c/qaHkMDHQM/4zspj8DSwLT 8ImgAib+dMRWEtbIGMyVQwxymggmUawtBat370WrZwia28cvfh3k6vvQS9tu6V76esxLGJjQsMruX 7CXJucTSwZ4a+pduXNOOE+ueGTfiD7oKfBC734CIB60DQ9LYRZJdBko1ae+HLDm0A0/w=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nBHLH-00061y-Fe for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:26:13 +0100 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:26:11 +0100 Message-Id: <87o843j18c.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #7782 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 7782 wontfix close 7782 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 7782 wontfix close 7782 quit From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:50:43 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 12:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator