GNU bug report logs - #77160
raising hell (frames)

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 17:35:35 -0400

In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:

I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no 
special effects.

At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation 
when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on 
some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be 
requesting it.

The railwaycat Cocoa port 
(https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the 
effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.  
When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No 
effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.

To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS 
control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This 
replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader 
effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball 
source-compare by switching frames.

I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window 
manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux 
very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as 
well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last 
booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.

I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) 
the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the 
window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, 
which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to 
control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.

So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.
For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.
If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.
i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for 
a variety of purposes.
I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to 
set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it.

Thank You for any clues and hacks!

Message #8 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 17:57:28 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 5:36 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

> In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:
>
> I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no
> special effects.
>
> At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation
> when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on
> some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be
> requesting it.
>
> The railwaycat Cocoa port
> (https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the
> effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.
> When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No
> effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.
>
> To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS
> control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This
> replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader
> effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball
> source-compare by switching frames.
>
> I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window
> manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux
> very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as
> well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last
> booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.
>
> I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a)
> the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the
> window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system,
> which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to
> control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.
>
> So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.
> For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.
> If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.
> i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for
> a variety of purposes.
> I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to
> set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it.
>
> Thank You for any clues and hacks!
>

I use Monterey with 29.4, 30.1, 31/master and I never see any such
animations (which I consider childish, like emojis).  I also never see such
things on Linux.  The code for Emacs makes no explicit requests that I can
discern.  I'm guessing you have installed something else on your system or
have some other setting that is interfering.

Or...

Are you running "full screen" windows?  I never use those (only "maximized"
in Emacs parlance) so it is possible what you are observing is something
related to switching among full-screen frames.  Disable Mission Control and
Spaces and see what happens.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #11 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 18:16:43 -0400

Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.

You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.

When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in 
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!

:)

Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
So we can't look there for the answer.

I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, 
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.

This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these 
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, 
and I don't think he's going to update from 29.

Message #14 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 18:32:24 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>
> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>
> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>
> :)
>
> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
> So we can't look there for the answer.
>
> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.
>
> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>

Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stands
out.

Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #17 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>, 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:10:58 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>     Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>
>     You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>
>     When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>     front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>
>     :)
>
>     Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>     So we can't look there for the answer.
>
>     I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>     since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>     adjustments.
>
>     This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>     years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
>     Emacs 30,
>     and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that 
> stands out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?

The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to 
windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)

Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
System Description:  macOS 12.7.6

Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
Which supposedly comes from: 
https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164 
AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08

Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60 
Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24

Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these 
builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #20 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:16:08 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.
>>
>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stands
> out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>
> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
> Which supposedly comes from:
> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
out more.  You should.

Try this build https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1
and
see if it differs.  This is the one I use when not building my own from
source.

You should also check your macOS settings for full-screen application
behaviors.  It is possible there's something to them that you need to
understand.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #23 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>, 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:43 +0100

On Mär 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:

> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)

system-configuration-options

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Message #26 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:28:38 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:25 PM Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
wrote:

> On Mär 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:
>
> > Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> > builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
> system-configuration-options
>

Right.  And he needs to know what third-party patches were applied by each
builder that aren't reported by system-configuration-options.  Why he needs
to know more about the builds because core Emacs folk won't be of that much
help if a patch is the culprit.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #29 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:29:16 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>     On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>     <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>
>>         Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>>         You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>>         When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
>>         Emacs in
>>         front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>>         :)
>>
>>         Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>>         turns out.
>>         So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>>         I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on
>>         the OS,
>>         since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>         adjustments.
>>
>>         This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
>>         these
>>         years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
>>         Emacs 30,
>>         and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>>
>>     Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything
>>     that stands out.
>>
>>     Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
>     The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>     windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
>     Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>     System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>
>     Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>     This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>     brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>     Which supposedly comes from:
>     https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>     GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
>     164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
>     Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>     (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>     GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>     appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
>     Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
>     these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and 
> find out more.  You should.

What is a "Caldwell"?

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #32 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:32:01 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.
>>>
>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>
>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>> stands out.
>>
>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>
>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>
>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>> Which supposedly comes from:
>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
> find out more.  You should.
>
> What is a "Caldwell"?
>

You'll see.

>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #35 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:44:40 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>
>     On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>>     <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>
>>         On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>         On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>         <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>>             You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>>             When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just
>>>             want Emacs in
>>>             front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>>             :)
>>>
>>>             Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>>>             turns out.
>>>             So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>>             I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>>             setting on the OS,
>>>             since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>>             external adjustments.
>>>
>>>             This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs
>>>             all these
>>>             years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>>             upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>             and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>>         anything that stands out.
>>>
>>>         Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>>         The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated
>>         to windowing. (Just other things that were broken and
>>         recently fixed.)
>>
>>         Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>         System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>
>>         Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>         This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>         brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>         Which supposedly comes from:
>>         https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>         GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
>>         Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>>         Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>         (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>         GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>>         appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>>         Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used
>>         on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
>>     It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's
>>     site and find out more.  You should.
>
>     What is a "Caldwell"?
>
>
> You'll see.

Not if I don't have the URL.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #38 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:48:22 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>
>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>> adjustments.
>>>>
>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>> stands out.
>>>
>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>
>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>
>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>> find out more.  You should.
>>
>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>
> You'll see.
>
> Not if I don't have the URL.
> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>

You gave it to us
https://emacsformacosx.com/

>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #41 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
To: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:42:29 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>
>     On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>
>>         On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>         On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>         <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>             On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>>             On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>>             <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
>>>>                 frames.
>>>>
>>>>                 You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
>>>>                 for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>>                 When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
>>>>                 just want Emacs in
>>>>                 front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>>                 :)
>>>>
>>>>                 Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode,
>>>>                 too, turns out.
>>>>                 So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>>                 I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>>>                 setting on the OS,
>>>>                 since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>>>                 external adjustments.
>>>>
>>>>                 This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
>>>>                 Emacs all these
>>>>                 years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>>>                 upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>>                 and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>>>             anything that stands out.
>>>>
>>>>             Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>>             The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
>>>             unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
>>>             broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>>             Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>>             System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>>             Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>>             This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>>             brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>>             Which supposedly comes from:
>>>             https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>>             GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
>>>             Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>>             Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>>             (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
>>>             malware.)
>>>             GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>>>             appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
>>>             2025-02-24
>>>
>>>             Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
>>>             used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
>>>             tell me?)
>>>
>>>         It doesn't really take much effort to click around
>>>         Caldwell's site and find out more.  You should.
>>
>>         What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>>
>>     You'll see.
>
>     Not if I don't have the URL.
>     I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/

There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am 
reporting here.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #44 received at 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ship Mints <shipmints <at> gmail.com>
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 06:56:11 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 12:42 AM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy <at> dtpq.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>>> adjustments.
>>>>>
>>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs
>>>>> 30,
>>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>>> stands out.
>>>>
>>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>>
>>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>>
>>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>>
>>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>>
>>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>>> find out more.  You should.
>>>
>>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>>
>>
>> You'll see.
>>
>> Not if I don't have the URL.
>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/
>
> There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am
> reporting here.
>
Christopher, at this point, it should be apparent that if you are not using
vanilla GNU Emacs, and have chosen a build you haven't yourself made, that
you need to dig into that build yourself--it's your responsibility and
especially if you are concerned about "supply-chain" issues.  If you
"clicked around" the emacsformacosx.com site as I suggested rather than
just reading it, you would have wound up here
https://github.com/caldwell/build-emacs and you can see for yourself what's
going on with the build you chose.

Did you try the alternative build
https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1 I suggested
for comparison?  That's the build I use when not compiling my own.  Both
Caldwell's and jimeh's builds apply patches that are not in the supported
GNU Emacs source.

Until you put in a little more work on your own, it's not clear this is a
bug in GNU Emacs.  I also suggest that you attempt to replicate the
behavior when running "emacs -Q".  You cannot do that from the macOS
launcher so run the binary directly from its location.

-Stephane

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

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