From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 17 13:33:30 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Mar 2025 17:33:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60769 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuELA-0006i3-6G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 13:33:30 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:58036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuEL7-0006fe-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 13:33:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tuEKf-0008Rj-Bl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 13:33:01 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tuEKY-0002xR-HR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 13:32:57 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A4DD240101 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 18:32:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742232763; bh=9YUqVLEhREVXFE4ByBAfF4a+yZTO40H+rVZtGbSJ6E8=; h=From:To:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=RIa4ppBCmoPfUeFdetzBboixX2KmbhAlndtfhiMltS1fhNc2lh6wMj4Z17kKv4x9R TCoC16OuxpAM6nYnG9rvz89N1Ph/cy9fOShgIpgS5NhJhn5Fc1giYCTFtLzu1y+SS2 sgjCdPVHIVIIqV4552oI3Y0OJNy7LooDYuic37MFDVawh9Uu7zldodaS9D07twNEUZ rZ3Qyv4RpqCUbWS5xsqhoIXN+Hss/vWGWsE1RNYWWlQzQ3d2SzHSeH6GxBR4UKSts2 dlTt2JNX/r31YUE4hnkNTnYMg7fWCoNgc61AN/SuzAxJHw/PRzh1U75j8KgCmDDpmf d/aPSA4huB7NQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZGhrC0WvNz6tsf for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 18:32:43 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA X-Debbugs-Cc: "Stefan Monnier" Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 17:32:42 +0000 Message-ID: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Tags: patch Hi, I am attaching a patch from emacs-devel that was written two years ago, where we discussed the possibility of adding package.el to ELPA. There is a minor difference here, I propose setting the version to 1.1.1-pre, so as to prevent an immediate release on ELPA. It should be possible to gather some feedback from ELPA devel users before committing to a final release. As far as I am aware, the main objection to this idea is that this might introduce instability that is difficult to fix (If `package-delete' doesn't work, then it isn't obvious how to uninstall the newer package.el). Are there any other points we should discuss? In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 4, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.48, cairo version 1.18.2) of 2025-03-12 built on siskin Repository revision: 7c9ec8a56549740718bf764c9cefca648c45ea84 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12401006 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux trixie/sid --=-=-= Content-Type: text/patch Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Prepare-package.el-to-be-published-on-GNU-ELPA.patch >From 612acb9d9214aa981f732e890b364b05abfe49d6 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Philip Kaludercic Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 23:16:00 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA * lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el: Add Compat as a dependency. (package--native-compile-async): Check if 'native-comp-available-p' is bound. (lm-homepage, lm-website): Use backwards-compatible alias 'lm-homepage'. (package-buffer-info): Call 'lm-maintainer' if 'lm-maintainers' is not defined. (describe-package-1): Avoid using 'make-separator-line' if not bound. (package-report-bug): Expand 'custom--standard-value' definition. For the background and motivation behind these changes, please consult this thread: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-03/msg00995.html. --- lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el | 28 +++++++++++++++++++--------- 1 file changed, 19 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el index 8d2e2f09108..7a69e680880 100644 --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el @@ -5,9 +5,12 @@ ;; Author: Tom Tromey ;; Daniel Hackney ;; Created: 10 Mar 2007 -;; Version: 1.1.0 +;; Version: 1.1.1-pre ;; Keywords: tools -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) + +;; This is a GNU ELPA :core package. Avoid functionality that is not +;; compatible with the version of Emacs recorded above. ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs. @@ -147,6 +150,7 @@ (eval-when-compile (require 'subr-x)) (eval-when-compile (require 'epg)) ;For setf accessors. (eval-when-compile (require 'inline)) ;For `define-inline' +(require 'compat nil 'noerror) (require 'seq) (require 'tabulated-list) @@ -1151,7 +1155,8 @@ package--native-compile-async "Native compile installed package PKG-DESC asynchronously. This assumes that `pkg-desc' has already been activated with `package-activate-1'." - (when (native-comp-available-p) + (when (and (fboundp 'native-comp-available-p) + (native-comp-available-p)) (let ((warning-minimum-level :error)) (native-compile-async (package-desc-dir pkg-desc) t)))) @@ -1168,7 +1173,7 @@ package-read-from-string (declare-function lm-package-requires "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-package-version "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) -(declare-function lm-website "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) +(declare-function lm-homepage "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-keywords-list "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-maintainers "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-authors "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) @@ -1188,7 +1193,7 @@ package-buffer-info (let* ((version-info (lm-package-version)) (pkg-version (package-strip-rcs-id version-info)) (keywords (lm-keywords-list)) - (website (lm-website))) + (website (lm-homepage))) (unless pkg-version (if version-info (error "Unrecognized package version: %s" version-info) @@ -3033,8 +3038,10 @@ describe-package-1 ;; Insert news if available. (when news - (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n" - (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) + (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n") + (when (fboundp 'make-separator-line) + (insert (make-separator-line) "\n")) + (insert (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) "\n\n") (insert-file-contents news)) @@ -4750,8 +4757,11 @@ package-report-bug (dolist (ent (get (cdr group) 'custom-group)) (when (and (custom-variable-p (car ent)) (boundp (car ent)) - (not (eq (custom--standard-value (car ent)) - (default-toplevel-value (car ent))))) + (not (eq + ;; We are not using `custom--standard-value' + ;; to retain compatibility for Emacs 27. + (eval (car (get (car ent) 'standard-value)) t) + (default-toplevel-value (car ent))))) (push (car ent) vars)))))) (dlet ((reporter-prompt-for-summary-p t)) (reporter-submit-bug-report maint name vars)))) -- 2.47.2 --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 17 14:39:14 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Mar 2025 18:39:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60878 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuFMo-0006de-09 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 14:39:14 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([2a01:4f8:c012:9177::1]:58289 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuFMj-0006cU-L4 for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 14:39:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=daniel-mendler.de; s=key; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=vJWoim0eE8SoZ3xvmyG6+rUv8HCUYQn4qL+w8ZzWO8M=; b=QBtNr6vbYZVlx0/eQOqKebOqo8 XXZRsTvsvUbe/fgjXwrh/u8+TuB5Ne/9UaT0sWWvDqUJYvtkTYE8J4nBU7HedQCEUvHg50UirVVWQ zR1Ya70OexvnBD1te4dGu0aqkOe5lm4eSUPt4b1rdEkY+cM0+UYvEWXBCNMx8kuYdBoo=; From: Daniel Mendler To: Philip Kaludercic Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Mon, 17 Mar 2025 17:32:42 +0000") References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:39:00 +0100 Message-ID: <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: 77075@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Philip, a few comments below. > diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el > index 8d2e2f09108..7a69e680880 100644 > --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el > +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el > @@ -5,9 +5,12 @@ > ;; Author: Tom Tromey > ;; Daniel Hackney > ;; Created: 10 Mar 2007 > -;; Version: 1.1.0 > +;; Version: 1.1.1-pre > ;; Keywords: tools > -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) > +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. > +;; This is a GNU ELPA :core package. Avoid functionality that is not > +;; compatible with the version of Emacs recorded above. > > ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs. > > @@ -147,6 +150,7 @@ > (eval-when-compile (require 'subr-x)) > (eval-when-compile (require 'epg)) ;For setf accessors. > (eval-when-compile (require 'inline)) ;For `define-inline' > +(require 'compat nil 'noerror) > (require 'seq) (require 'compat) without the noerror argument should work, since we have the compat.el stub in Emacs. > (require 'tabulated-list) > @@ -1151,7 +1155,8 @@ package--native-compile-async > "Native compile installed package PKG-DESC asynchronously. > This assumes that `pkg-desc' has already been activated with > `package-activate-1'." > - (when (native-comp-available-p) > + (when (and (fboundp 'native-comp-available-p) > + (native-comp-available-p)) > (let ((warning-minimum-level :error)) > (native-compile-async (package-desc-dir pkg-desc) t)))) `native-comp-available-p' is provided by Compat. You can use it directly. It aliases `ignore' on Emacs 27 and older. > ;; Insert news if available. > (when news > - (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n" > - (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) > + (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n") > + (when (fboundp 'make-separator-line) > + (insert (make-separator-line) "\n")) > + (insert (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) > "\n\n") > (insert-file-contents news)) `make-separator-line' is provided by Compat. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 17 16:28:46 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Mar 2025 20:28:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32923 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuH4n-0003b5-GK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 16:28:46 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:51725) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuH4k-0003Zp-6O for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 16:28:43 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23FB9240101 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 21:28:34 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742243315; bh=fMUR4vvhsOfztwl6xFinK3FvCWAZBa0Z8bnheWuaxog=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=BLtkJi0S3WBkUbju1FSc6/WkU7cENrKX7It6pcsHuB+okIu/VoSecDjynLsSCqT5C +vG15KGDf3pdS2vb+axFMFhuuJOENGdfQsR+lozYnGWbIxKvY10ONPeh/peQxiU8RS AD4xSRXg4hWbucBbm7c9MoUMft8lZ8+L+Pn4RB4mNKHnSOncIrnl324NOhyyIhMiQQ dObJGAMCIUZu6M6wkO1GUFwbHd9THXy5P8hYUcApUNMPgpmiKptV2vbUbsKyE+iBTx cwmwFaKurhqN2rEOKq20EtuZObZw8I6JKMVdouelUN38/4FVGtSTXkw0aEyitlBwom uPNsw8K4SSCwA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZGml50lXCz9rxK; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 21:28:32 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 20:28:32 +0000 Message-ID: <87frjbwgen.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: 77075@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Daniel Mendler writes: > Hi Philip, > > a few comments below. Thanks for the reminders, I've update the patch! --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Prepare-package.el-to-be-published-on-GNU-ELPA.patch >From 5943b2de9efe54dc6f5170ca2733460ada6a6385 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Philip Kaludercic Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 23:16:00 +0200 Subject: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA * lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el: Add Compat as a dependency. (lm-homepage, lm-website): Use backwards-compatible alias 'lm-homepage'. (package-buffer-info): Call 'lm-maintainer' if 'lm-maintainers' is not defined. (package-report-bug): Expand 'custom--standard-value' definition. For the background and motivation behind these changes, please consult this thread: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-03/msg00995.html. --- lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el | 19 +++++++++++++------ 1 file changed, 13 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el index 8d2e2f09108..939289232d7 100644 --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el @@ -5,9 +5,12 @@ ;; Author: Tom Tromey ;; Daniel Hackney ;; Created: 10 Mar 2007 -;; Version: 1.1.0 +;; Version: 1.1.1-pre ;; Keywords: tools -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "30")) + +;; This is a GNU ELPA :core package. Avoid functionality that is not +;; compatible with the version of Emacs recorded above. ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs. @@ -147,6 +150,7 @@ (eval-when-compile (require 'subr-x)) (eval-when-compile (require 'epg)) ;For setf accessors. (eval-when-compile (require 'inline)) ;For `define-inline' +(require 'compat) (require 'seq) (require 'tabulated-list) @@ -1168,7 +1172,7 @@ package-read-from-string (declare-function lm-package-requires "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-package-version "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) -(declare-function lm-website "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) +(declare-function lm-homepage "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-keywords-list "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-maintainers "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) (declare-function lm-authors "lisp-mnt" (&optional file)) @@ -1188,7 +1192,7 @@ package-buffer-info (let* ((version-info (lm-package-version)) (pkg-version (package-strip-rcs-id version-info)) (keywords (lm-keywords-list)) - (website (lm-website))) + (website (lm-homepage))) (unless pkg-version (if version-info (error "Unrecognized package version: %s" version-info) @@ -4750,8 +4754,11 @@ package-report-bug (dolist (ent (get (cdr group) 'custom-group)) (when (and (custom-variable-p (car ent)) (boundp (car ent)) - (not (eq (custom--standard-value (car ent)) - (default-toplevel-value (car ent))))) + (not (eq + ;; We are not using `custom--standard-value' + ;; to retain compatibility for Emacs 27. + (eval (car (get (car ent) 'standard-value)) t) + (default-toplevel-value (car ent))))) (push (car ent) vars)))))) (dlet ((reporter-prompt-for-summary-p t)) (reporter-submit-bug-report maint name vars)))) -- 2.47.2 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain >> diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el >> index 8d2e2f09108..7a69e680880 100644 >> --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el >> +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el >> @@ -5,9 +5,12 @@ >> ;; Author: Tom Tromey >> ;; Daniel Hackney >> ;; Created: 10 Mar 2007 >> -;; Version: 1.1.0 >> +;; Version: 1.1.1-pre >> ;; Keywords: tools >> -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) >> +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) > > I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. > >> +;; This is a GNU ELPA :core package. Avoid functionality that is not >> +;; compatible with the version of Emacs recorded above. >> >> ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs. >> >> @@ -147,6 +150,7 @@ >> (eval-when-compile (require 'subr-x)) >> (eval-when-compile (require 'epg)) ;For setf accessors. >> (eval-when-compile (require 'inline)) ;For `define-inline' >> +(require 'compat nil 'noerror) >> (require 'seq) > > (require 'compat) without the noerror argument should work, since we > have the compat.el stub in Emacs. > >> (require 'tabulated-list) >> @@ -1151,7 +1155,8 @@ package--native-compile-async >> "Native compile installed package PKG-DESC asynchronously. >> This assumes that `pkg-desc' has already been activated with >> `package-activate-1'." >> - (when (native-comp-available-p) >> + (when (and (fboundp 'native-comp-available-p) >> + (native-comp-available-p)) >> (let ((warning-minimum-level :error)) >> (native-compile-async (package-desc-dir pkg-desc) t)))) > > `native-comp-available-p' is provided by Compat. You can use it > directly. It aliases `ignore' on Emacs 27 and older. > >> ;; Insert news if available. >> (when news >> - (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n" >> - (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) >> + (insert "\n" (make-separator-line) "\n") >> + (when (fboundp 'make-separator-line) >> + (insert (make-separator-line) "\n")) >> + (insert (propertize "* News" 'face 'package-help-section-name) >> "\n\n") >> (insert-file-contents news)) > > `make-separator-line' is provided by Compat. > > Daniel --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 17 19:13:15 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Mar 2025 23:13:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33255 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuJdz-0001so-A9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:15 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:22088) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuJdw-0001rV-E1 for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:13 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 4B3B21000DF; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:05 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742253184; bh=WaNUl1LlVckCxEW9O+Dju/A5WYGf5Xals/hyIh/Zwv8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=khVum9BFkZLScJUxKBib6VpUgakt4h/YoXQfBdPDxbwcU8Ah/S7TEl60W9n3chn3T QGNk26zv4Acxn34c9lI4EpQdJdkP93IfyiOHtipPI+cEmMoilc6HURkBk3Cc7/KsTY UpHMUQPliGCI8OwFSX3cq8ugygckq7YFI4vISnAOnOtrfQYkPc5wjqbfTlq3nzWzl1 XRI0b88sfKNNE7j1pEsQgkK27cQHBKCDwzvnEJ2cl4L+BR6/QhAhOVfleyo2J3vRJR Km/DAFErfknvkNL2UBiERerBPZagLgTngnt1SRGtWWSTPhp6SaIumAGQReX4zKIAq4 MqBKTitb5kZWg== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 638F510004C; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alfajor (unknown [104.247.242.5]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 340AE120602; Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:03 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.353 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) >> +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) > I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. Is there a particular technical need for it? As usual, I recommend we don't unnecessarily tighten dependencies. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 01:26:30 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 05:26:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuPTB-0000AU-1a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 01:26:29 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([2a01:4f8:c012:9177::1]:52541 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuPT6-00008g-Gv for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 01:26:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=daniel-mendler.de; s=key; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=b+O2YfrTT1iLXdGzDdyaCnsh8gN7ADWCPAPn2OrVxRY=; b=Sr5mOt3F1IA0FALxZuTvT5SgXq lBp+RI8eZxuuf8vacT5eKI//9hj26P/kOSwm0NLLJrTTducnWPoJ8yqLIP6M00ocMsJnWPmChqLSU v4z3ur3zastutlLdhin4X/5WRH0tlsxBWUFTet7A4lq9Js6R1bVR/NfiWvaG3ZRJel/U=; From: Daniel Mendler To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 17 Mar 2025 19:13:03 -0400") References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 06:26:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: >>> -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) >>> +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) >> I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. > > Is there a particular technical need for it? > As usual, I recommend we don't unnecessarily tighten dependencies. For builtin packages, which are published on ELPA, I recommend to require the newest available Compat such that more APIs are available. Sometimes it happens that unavailable APIs are required accidentally when the Emacs code is updated in bulk. Alternatively one can check what is provided exactly by the given Compat version. package-lint provides an API version check and has Compat support. It warns if an API is used which is not available by the specified Emacs or Compat version. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 11:55:31 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 15:55:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42545 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuZHu-0008QV-VA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:31 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:61132) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuZHs-0008P0-Np for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:29 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 2AFEE80191; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:22 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742313321; bh=URm1UJgG30kDMmR8Rk8Y+PYghjiEVSsIMpAMiht1yIc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=XQeuzn2baVUtU5Zl+EBOCdolCKsgVO3Pl3w18OybF2BoBdUcWqvEujemvw3R6U4xG RqQGjZ4J8xk/tUn4KjPj1Ej5Z8Zxj8AeUJMiPE6k4zH2et834GBxSqapl4ZMSGtVXJ EIUK7y/s9H3TIsd9ac5wDjnw88RSva7cP8wi1EtiSI6U+g8ZB2uVEIkROlZFEPDe20 WIoKRsLdgPkeaBet3edJ/y7qQ4vAe9evtjyGCH2P37Y2xR/IbqWNC4Ma9rr390fLZs MtClahNZiV69ePMKiGF+oHrgAUyUiHZncgmFSkx7kxUTvab3W6LQHGNxDPldSab1Dw IaiMuYVNSBcNA== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 47E4980038; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3874D12056B; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Daniel Mendler Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> (Daniel Mendler's message of "Tue, 18 Mar 2025 06:26:15 +0100") Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 11:55:14 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.210 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >>>> -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) >>>> +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) >>> I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. >> Is there a particular technical need for it? >> As usual, I recommend we don't unnecessarily tighten dependencies. > For builtin packages, which are published on ELPA, I recommend to > require the newest available Compat such that more APIs are available. > Sometimes it happens that unavailable APIs are required accidentally > when the Emacs code is updated in bulk. Right, but there is also a "quality of service" desire to avoid unnecessarily strict `package-requires:`. > Alternatively one can check what is provided exactly by the given Compat > version. Package-lint provides an API version check and has Compat > support. It warns if an API is used which is not available by the > specified Emacs or Compat version. Maybe it could also point out when the specified requirements seem to be more strict than necessary? Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 13:32:48 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 17:32:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuao3-0004wt-2b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:32:48 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:44183) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuanx-0004vO-Fz for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7213240101 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:32:32 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742319152; bh=nCRVGklqdmvRY+BJ0SigQwlo89nX8BNqzjXjFy2pqMk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=Y6OwWanXI7xtzTnYNlAlmiOdqyoeqWJ21642mn8dV7QpMuHXqUzlbih46VPlcC2tG M9DN3IR3gwPI4zhec+2/jDqnd4NsQEC9mCutR9ixngW28433eNg6xdlobsxUHlGu0P W7BH7b6sovYxJVLYFMo+bV9hxaakkMHIRExsm1J8QeYk2U3T+Zkw/OwETOFk/n4ClD nJmOCPzaZe5cbhZ7QJKS8DNQj0DUP+T0vnVis2sHIemFR8zuvGsrAfM/897MK035EP aqhmqAKuhCS+O8LqibjaLhmBkGdT7/8+U1wVag64skAwR9L3MXQP1r/f6emsuDP1ba 3FaaMPWb2OknQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZHJnW3QBqz9rxB; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:32:30 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:32:30 +0000 Message-ID: <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: >>>>> -;; Package-Requires: ((tabulated-list "1.0")) >>>>> +;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (compat "29")) >>>> I suggest to require the newest Compat 30. >>> Is there a particular technical need for it? >>> As usual, I recommend we don't unnecessarily tighten dependencies. >> For builtin packages, which are published on ELPA, I recommend to >> require the newest available Compat such that more APIs are available. >> Sometimes it happens that unavailable APIs are required accidentally >> when the Emacs code is updated in bulk. > > Right, but there is also a "quality of service" desire to avoid > unnecessarily strict `package-requires:`. > >> Alternatively one can check what is provided exactly by the given Compat >> version. Package-lint provides an API version check and has Compat >> support. It warns if an API is used which is not available by the >> specified Emacs or Compat version. > > Maybe it could also point out when the specified requirements seem to be > more strict than necessary? Does it matter much in the end, considering that package.el will fetch the newest version from ELPA, if any satisfactory version is available? > > Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 14:08:44 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 18:08:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43168 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubMo-0001oW-S9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:44 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:9049) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubMj-0001mh-PG for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:40 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A68CC100040; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:31 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742321311; bh=A3o62EsXXfcagzV8RZEkRvwGHLyQol0pV48qkWzOHT0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=VlzKJuverPRmHuwSQamCXSqjjzY3neW/5kLZPJ8Gf6OrsAuzwqevmjapAI+0077t4 76V70jwQqz8MeeN7EuA+cmcA3MA/PLHGJVdvVUz9ex3bp/ud40/3lX+fphFgxZdgUd ceZ+2UN42m4111N7KsOjCeXMX8F+lsGE386vfDiMLYUN6swjbmteUzLjTFS1VcpswG t4QlJp6AAObjjgGM6uS7ycOFyw95HlVMHDeg9U7XQH5sEErfZILddo8UihcRbthTry rVMYpUkwdEqlTECMSzQ4l0KMnUFyU2wlKbOjo99ZI1dxOeVZI845SnFX4SIbqSrIoj voMB1Ndj1xqIQ== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 09FD310002E; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2034120406; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Philip Kaludercic Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Tue, 18 Mar 2025 17:32:30 +0000") Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:08:30 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.108 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >>> Alternatively one can check what is provided exactly by the given Compat >>> version. Package-lint provides an API version check and has Compat >>> support. It warns if an API is used which is not available by the >>> specified Emacs or Compat version. >> Maybe it could also point out when the specified requirements seem to be >> more strict than necessary? > Does it matter much in the end, considering that package.el will fetch > the newest version from ELPA, if any satisfactory version is available? I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep dependencies no stricter than necessary. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 14:33:15 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 18:33:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43226 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubkX-0005MN-CF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:33:15 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42989) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubkU-0005Lh-QU for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:33:12 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF902240027 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 19:33:03 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742322783; bh=9OMtSgg66It5iZP+JQ9V/cWlEI6UEDGECXunDGyH4UU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=VlB6Z5lvRU5ize84Gm+IN+SH75GDBd7+U7VUz1wR7OyQ7gm/F/z3qa+CCx8qzpQ8y lf0ksnTNALKyIPT87o43MnPLyzd0/B5S1Vhnt/MMmr9AWI+425ldQJkrHXprqGUZRo PzYDzcYase0ndo9nld4XmOXAvX3EC7Ta+JAkoS12Ur0cKK4UIp7Nqwn1foYhgv+3UP PuMpa9rG4dqk55IFkjisACmy/TeBgY+vcZQ8Q2FC8AxCYe+A/cruHVKsdGvSSySSRk iHo+tLLxjPJKI0HSVMirLytRrySIyeHsvCfM0sa/+QIyGehc8cpyNBqNoYx37MXjzI Ut0IOPdspuFBA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZHL7L3cNFz9rxB; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 19:33:01 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:33:00 +0000 Message-ID: <8734faw5nn.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: >>>> Alternatively one can check what is provided exactly by the given Compat >>>> version. Package-lint provides an API version check and has Compat >>>> support. It warns if an API is used which is not available by the >>>> specified Emacs or Compat version. >>> Maybe it could also point out when the specified requirements seem to be >>> more strict than necessary? >> Does it matter much in the end, considering that package.el will fetch >> the newest version from ELPA, if any satisfactory version is available? > > I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other > systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade > everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by > Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which > we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep > dependencies no stricter than necessary. I agree entirely (anecdotally+tangentially, I've recently been using a offline system where I can only download packages via my web browser and copying them onto the system via "scp", and installing packages with any dependencies is a major annoyance), but in current case, it seems unfeasible to publish package.el on ELPA that is still usable on older releases without the help of Compat. I would certainly oppose adding any additional dependencies, and luckily in the future it might be unnecessary to install Compat given the stub we have added in Emacs 30. > > Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 14:45:54 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 18:45:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43257 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubwo-0007Eg-BX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:54 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:24994) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tubwl-0007DH-LO for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:52 -0400 Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 593C8100040; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:45 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742323544; bh=lVqv56AVxrsRSoKzfjpORi6eMtPiHl7q8xhCoAPq1/A=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=MtQdclLnKzs0k9pBrcJcqUcqvUmr9oBVz438uu8Lcul8TGUNu3DkwyZeTM1OR8amR 6xQ4jW2RG64j1lQByITsem7Cd2lnapkXe2u/GjunO1RygwYztSzSxkSlTsoGZAL7yo t+s0YDWSbREHRGHZvaUoe+jNj2HTHd2pobYEHZPyqqoKy+mEOiC+ezpm/3A6gY5DMx 7/ra7Xkfk2M7Af5HWZqgmrf3UfdQ7HbV+ZEXumVxqrOR1QKjglHAgXFBEgcmRwKGni vOAv9xIO0F2w1HZfZkosrkCnJMrsOmqcVIN9Hq09xBsdI6yzSbXqnQxLu1HVKWrS6r Kk7QjJ69NnD9g== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 930DE10002E; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8223F120304; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Philip Kaludercic Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <8734faw5nn.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:33:00 +0000") Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> <8734faw5nn.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 14:45:44 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL 0.107 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > I agree entirely (anecdotally+tangentially, I've recently been using a > offline system where I can only download packages via my web browser and > copying them onto the system via "scp", and installing packages with any > dependencies is a major annoyance), but in current case, it seems > unfeasible to publish package.el on ELPA that is still usable on older > releases without the help of Compat. I would certainly oppose adding > any additional dependencies, and luckily in the future it might be > unnecessary to install Compat given the stub we have added in Emacs 30. Note that I'm not discussing which packages we depend on, or which features we use in the code. I'm focusing on which versions we put in `Package-Requires:`, because I've seen recently an increase in commits that do nothing but bump one of those versions. Sometimes it's warranted, of course (it fixes a bug because the bump was made necessary by an earlier change), but I want to resist against making such changes "just because". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 18:50:34 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 22:50:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43747 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuflZ-000204-RU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:50:34 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::535]:61570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuflT-0001xZ-8e for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:50:30 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e673822f76so10216413a12.2 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1742338220; x=1742943020; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IDyCqQNs+luE3VXOrD7EN4hiByjvfGI84mlBYkKQNXI=; b=KweqC36DJYWZR9BKl0z7Zit/gb0tjfA7G+/yVxeCmFXJqD8IZlN6cmCstmaTV1A8FR hm9Jm66yaTQ/iZ3l3pYeUe0qhNoDXF/OBURJTfzcrUr6eAgTIYVbdcxui0TpkK2bZhFk L0Rvv5ihDcyVKwoY+Gc+v2YD2JmtoSjl/BtAlBVIqde4kQhPb24BH3jGNC69O/MPjaHy ql4oGOyuHKvVBryUkV3FOvP4bsbpjxSwsgwX9fN+9aXEOQlBwVn1Go7R2dmFEr8rHTkb vEdTbJ8AsgQ+OTnSB8pfY7EH1cJiDCH2WdCnVW+X5QLyD7KrgXYw9D4BYLsX430Stp1a V/4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1742338220; x=1742943020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IDyCqQNs+luE3VXOrD7EN4hiByjvfGI84mlBYkKQNXI=; b=mUmrJPr2nn+d7SwPz7RgaAYyVrS+/aTS4riluIpTNwtiqNAbBcDTRgbSH21RXxmXBG uOL1xlGBT56C0RkqqUPunpxvbphc8jF1Av9MFDSTwQq+HiH00TPdhtduRd3ceX8pGIxi FUi397MUKnL8NCewbExqGQ7uDL3D7PO4qktEfp3hLPppnAOLJngRlXMYIqNF3YEsesfc 9HuJiNXyBlJOl0qtMGQ2J88X05vy84zI0M5T5gLbgEcn4ggwJBP9m47jAsO7bVZ3JaXi iZvl6JIpTsx2WNHV8DQBgsR8Up8CynerInwBjPljCPFHevrhUu/77bYUNA20G1/KbHWf lrLQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXCMu7p6zml+psUlKRXWdLWlb2n5p7VlOM7Z2Yfe/SPmh70RljltlbNXnwzoWv9087JHv1M8g==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyQXG0zfYE68Cgm1lMkEzJzq5sCNpqnwqSawLMkB6rHnKYja+E9 W198Vvho3f9DBHmQZYlswyhMvOVEnVPBgJ3gwesNotjyl1rf+xyqgPu6SmQXAn+tZI8OpTIfUTI nAx+No1ToW5n5FvjK7pwRYKb5y7o= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv83AB29L2SEtCHxs0t0qO01vr0jfxBT9d9irdMY/MaxqNVZ9KWxFgcwiD44qE lD7OLHyWA9IN0+/fQVAzTIZeXM18KAX8PZKib1NZAsKDUBTkwYWWL8ip7HZBgob7kJuWsanRauL 0dM5jLL2AZ/U5SevSDrYFxc7nL+g6hNiTvezo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHtB9fqQr/E7dbdMk+XRts0vZex+nGULsSPDJcXAfb0ngTKObdpjklzW34d0HjM97ryqGDJb93+7x9kQInvP1g= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:d786:b0:ac2:c26:5608 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac3b7abbc17mr41890766b.8.1742338220082; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:50:19 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:50:19 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JrdmMiq--_sztgjtcD7vte-EYX7WvvJzW-vkYPQv9FLlrzJ5_pS1Th_pD4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA To: Stefan Monnier , Philip Kaludercic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other > systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade > everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by > Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which > we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep > dependencies no stricter than necessary. Could you perhaps briefly explain the philosophical argument? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 18:52:02 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Mar 2025 22:52:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tufmx-0002Ax-UB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:52:01 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]:53342) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tufms-00029h-1m for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 18:51:57 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e5e1a38c1aso7755762a12.2 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1742338307; x=1742943107; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Kxb6rrrBrTQLWnBeJn/Vb9d1YWy6Ix4xirNr4edp7nI=; b=ltv2MfoqBi6QDkCZ1HFpNFeUKIoyeJO2WdYSDJFcdNvSy0RcbhHVI5+8jJw8y77BrX c4nwJwcXLwfTRb46z3BrtUxB6CwAaXYLsRY7Za9eZj4S3QHvoODJCppFlgTIhb/Kkm+x 8X0Bhdhhoib1ysm5tv95FcgPYXl/JlpGHKCIWYITT++9DFEmC0ehepLC6ECCRqqq5R8g QBjLFmhK/z2+nC5JKfVPAcH4lzcqJy5SW1gkGfc64Ga++y2bWC3akYaOjuWWIGDLlgDe JYL/0buo4jF2G52xIUAmG3SOEG7KsDUOoELwIQBH5WZy1hXBaA8ChT4WLgmNpbhIqkIG PP1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1742338307; x=1742943107; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Kxb6rrrBrTQLWnBeJn/Vb9d1YWy6Ix4xirNr4edp7nI=; b=U89MRqlGCo1qXxIY1dg+vDwLeAlh8Tpw3hSC6zrrg5ZoHb7jvNrvf5whqnBVGKwayH Q6EIol9vhMa9JZXqLDFa0BZyQzVOSp7b5fInwGq3fDQb+NTA3Xy7I27R+XSlsSJrkM9s CxjBs+0z7+FeHLb11AOrvurQTzyv1TKqrLli4UEvnUPaszTyw+iK5kdbgR0iOFVcMDej 0NQfCYZENs4YVeosqJckKCnO962KbztNyAxIOrSX2oJwWsH8djYVMZ9Qs5ddKCI/08kr L3PcmCJPHesx3ngQl5Ib1xPuICEXFkI+EAeCgyHkqQOz+Gs7bbvQukTY97aSJ4Zs+++J PTyw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUtECprSfypGQ/XUUCOovT/EMwn7duhfB6vO4fOiMgUkqzOA/3//aEQrM3l8KGAKc7USmZ8Uw==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxaeREqnhxi0NuX4TsW3/5KDKHRxxzrqVSuoMK2IPb67eLLL7yR xLh9yKef4+ETridV/U1eyRVfyaHFOaUsRU3S26a6PoPIdOoPcVxSFbndhhumb03wf/JtUMKh5mZ HlK4g72XyIthF5BV4CP4QsHIDmEocffENd6k= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsFqZeT7PA28GnZWgPsbIWpAmpj5lmlhMCV/gxySequ7ZBQu+hJHYXYZ/sJVB0 6OO/rQ35PP33iVAHO+F9DhFt6NqAkt2s87nMmWRYhpjJnPmvDtKCfEn94YKXjoT+R8QWmoSCAOX G9ePAYRkO0NPsZH8JWjFWkWG8C X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFf/16MtI/vj51i4uYNBvu22OdIAjSbzfSw3GtaR6eE+lqcTceshX78KUE+tZIQjgSPpZZZHgrJVAo7461bDlU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:5109:b0:5e5:c0e7:f428 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5eb80abf227mr419654a12.0.1742338307227; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:51:46 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:51:46 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JpQaZ0BGkh5UyQCG6cwVYMZWvdZvuA1Rq656QFpZKc0EoizxtFt2KkRDRQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA To: Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Philip Kaludercic writes: > As far as I am aware, the main objection to this idea is that this might > introduce instability that is difficult to fix (If `package-delete' > doesn't work, then it isn't obvious how to uninstall the newer > package.el). Are there any other points we should discuss? Can you summarize what is our reply to that? Do we have a better workaround than `rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa`? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 20:02:57 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2025 00:02:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43887 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tugtb-00045K-GG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:57 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:42270) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tugtY-00044d-8B for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:53 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id BADF480898; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:44 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742342564; bh=UDk+93qRDwcAkLYg0KiOXBcYEJ5jD2io0yzye4RPbk4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=ES/1N6o724aPjprBnFoMTP9FnDsh6fH0hCYE4KPNVZpe0e2GhAJjqIfE3bFq1A1Uk jIcSQiN34xNbegk7lae61cGybqYiAPxK4dU4bIfdt4zBUzwUZqU1se2AZiw/WWr+Ce RMaB+1Cm1+f89QvLQpfCI5ZC+b3LuBTnGa36PNIGEh+a1izkYdb7pFtRq8lNedxIc5 BfRebjW+p39+SIkApaQrTMwnbvkye06jUobaOQnqhPWyjVs8fA81PYd1SEXZ9jRAV7 mbAF2My/ufaYacGFPZzqT0yKTdu4uBd+1cLgqxrOAcVlYfvz/Rohj94AUdJ1x+4Dz5 lnCDmewLLQ+Ig== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id ED97A8000E; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [104.247.242.5]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BAEAA12056B; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 20:02:42 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.315 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other >> systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade >> everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by >> Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which >> we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep >> dependencies no stricter than necessary. > > Could you perhaps briefly explain the philosophical argument? Not sure what you mean by that, but if you want me to explain why I think it erodes Free Software: in systems like Rust/Go/JS where dependencies tend to be very tight, it becomes a lot more difficult to maintain local changes to a piece of code, because pretty quickly none of the rest of the "world" will work with the version of the package FOO you modified, so either you stick to an old snapshot of all the packages (i.e. "stuck in time") or you have to port your change to a newer version of FOO (i.e. live on the bleeding edge). If you push the precise-version-dependency argument to its logical conclusion, packages should even refuse to work (unless you modify them, that is) with your locally modified version of FOO because, well, they haven't been tested against your version of the package, have they? Their coders wouldn't want to receive bug reports about people using their package with your modified FOO. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 18 23:17:33 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2025 03:17:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45496 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tujvw-0001Y1-R3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:33 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:16972) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tujvu-0001XV-La for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:31 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 73B54444308; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:24 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742354243; bh=RlxCXPkJpC9vYaRKzNnMU0Fqhlq+Q0CUllA+Mh8z/TE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=aRlVmTKQ2KX6XJmAcRTp+81AE6Rwhf3rbMn9LfBnkMTxXSZ6AVFcY2p1bgEV+WC+I ZE+izRBzBLaaa5d10BWfTzy/6bbOhmf15/aq4Sv0c7ln0mGC9sUBPqM0XJaFCzrDW6 d81b4ygJRMbyAvp2SyILGjpyCQqrhP7fhBxx/r4i6sjIy7qj0S6CG/6NuR67uwyGZe hUYH1wobY/LS+yZNc1Na9tHVy+yrkL1A60kLH7Uw4P4yT5QOG9vOqvmp6g4m/qKoHD eRt05XEIejGRR4S/LPguQnwnD4teaNTWKWdtyftKh2L0lYw7/RfX0oWlNUf231Af5x bZoZuKFVD7yAQ== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 72A09444301; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pastel (unknown [104.247.242.5]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3AD32120422; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 23:17:21 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.388 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Philip Kaludercic , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Not sure what you mean by that, but if you want me to explain why > I think it erodes Free Software: in systems like Rust/Go/JS where > dependencies tend to be very tight, it becomes a lot more difficult to > maintain local changes to a piece of code, Oh, and if you want to see this problem in real life, go check the status of packaging Rust/Go/JS applications in GNU/Linux distributions. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 19 12:27:30 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2025 16:27:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuwGN-0007ZL-Lf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:27:30 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:47207) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuwGJ-0007Y8-2E for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 12:27:25 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A295240103 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 17:27:13 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742401635; bh=lBCsiH1FA84EVzHKOeB7zyP3YjXjw3zY506obahPQzU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=kDu6B0k3TcITXDRBe7BLrhXlSSjQsw1vIWdtz2s0Tz/5BW5uHiFvKcZTaOnbUvKVm NCxJDuWl1tZqEGTq5O4LxzfcoL0yx/8fyl03RHlxyYNxr/SfbPuXfH6xh5lnEt9BHY q/ndSEH+puWQC3ZZrQ6oX/tSNSF1/xQcnzcCBYkDGcbw37/fWEZuZRlQ/iYtao68Ah YF9uU67RY4BD+GXLHiICC4T9GQv8/MtXcU4z7fLsOs0rrSjEd2ZPbqlHoo5SK/ZnWg mhefexLvGbRq9VMkpmB+stvothZ7SUxI0+Avy+/mU1cUL7EtDdynX4ZEkHC4R+9UFH OJyRjsTcmPVSw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZHvHh6fWSz9rxD; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 17:27:12 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:27:10 +0000 Message-ID: <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Stefan Kangas , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: >>> I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other >>> systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade >>> everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by >>> Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which >>> we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep >>> dependencies no stricter than necessary. >> >> Could you perhaps briefly explain the philosophical argument? > > Not sure what you mean by that, but if you want me to explain why > I think it erodes Free Software: in systems like Rust/Go/JS where > dependencies tend to be very tight, it becomes a lot more difficult to > maintain local changes to a piece of code, because pretty quickly none > of the rest of the "world" will work with the version of the package FOO > you modified, so either you stick to an old snapshot of all the packages > (i.e. "stuck in time") or you have to port your change to a newer > version of FOO (i.e. live on the bleeding edge). > > If you push the precise-version-dependency argument to its logical > conclusion, packages should even refuse to work (unless you modify them, > that is) with your locally modified version of FOO because, well, they > haven't been tested against your version of the package, have they? > Their coders wouldn't want to receive bug reports about people using > their package with your modified FOO. In that case I misunderstood what you are referring to, but I agree that it is a relevant concern. If you think it is worth it, I can check if reducing the version of Compat is feasible, or if that would just require the introduction of too many kludges. > > Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 19 13:02:07 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2025 17:02:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52862 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuwnu-0005f8-QE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 13:02:07 -0400 Received: from server.qxqx.de ([2a01:4f8:c012:9177::1]:51589 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tuwnr-0005eY-3y for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 13:02:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=daniel-mendler.de; s=key; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Uot8WJNLERXMF++MMD3OQVzgiNpjBzB7bYPVG+n/MV4=; b=E78iqgK+7x9D/VBGvZ7v36nVRx ffKj2RJjWPg1dBkzQngiePXUbB/7bD3RgiqQsH5IazMLqP/kdv6UH7ETPV3x/ur6gsqzdDThWOwJ1 onoviNFF3Ie/Cpaagl5Q5GO/zs9NILTjSOUxgFbc95qX1iPJNh2VvcVFm/tqzOH3ggjI=; From: Daniel Mendler To: Philip Kaludercic Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:27:10 +0000") References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 18:01:54 +0100 Message-ID: <87r02t54zh.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: 77075@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Philip Kaludercic writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>>> I'm worried that our standard practice is being polluted by other >>>> systems where it's routine to force all users to constantly upgrade >>>> everything (which I believe ultimately erodes the freedoms offered by >>>> Free Software), so I think it's important that the packages over which >>>> we have some control preserve the tradition of being careful to keep >>>> dependencies no stricter than necessary. >>> >>> Could you perhaps briefly explain the philosophical argument? >> >> Not sure what you mean by that, but if you want me to explain why >> I think it erodes Free Software: in systems like Rust/Go/JS where >> dependencies tend to be very tight, it becomes a lot more difficult to >> maintain local changes to a piece of code, because pretty quickly none >> of the rest of the "world" will work with the version of the package FOO >> you modified, so either you stick to an old snapshot of all the packages >> (i.e. "stuck in time") or you have to port your change to a newer >> version of FOO (i.e. live on the bleeding edge). >> >> If you push the precise-version-dependency argument to its logical >> conclusion, packages should even refuse to work (unless you modify them, >> that is) with your locally modified version of FOO because, well, they >> haven't been tested against your version of the package, have they? >> Their coders wouldn't want to receive bug reports about people using >> their package with your modified FOO. > > In that case I misunderstood what you are referring to, but I agree that > it is a relevant concern. If you think it is worth it, I can check if > reducing the version of Compat is feasible, or if that would just > require the introduction of too many kludges. We should not introduce kludges in order to reduce the version requirements. As Stefan argues, it is best to require the version of a dependency such that all necessary features are provided, but not unnecessarily depend on newer versions "just because". While I understand and share Stefan's arguments and concerns in general, and the problems in other systems like Rust/Go/JS, I find it a bit misplaced to bring them up in this particular case. We have made Compat specifically to make it easier for package authors to support older Emacs versions, which arguably increases freedom for the users. Daniel From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 19 16:31:49 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Mar 2025 20:31:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53322 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tv04r-0002I7-0r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:49 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:15701) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tv04o-0002Hl-KF for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:47 -0400 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id EA3074415F8; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:40 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1742416299; bh=uhH8ePrEAT7uWyuUzRVsRcYXi9hyO90WhnanzrP/vIE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=GtbDt4t0Dq45lQ9UJT+ZnrAOH06696q1ENXa6SEJJ8QkwOZ2p1ss0I9szg2MtwRqp YvR9utkZNnFT/XauSmtl4M1P/h5wE2ETypE+FM1J31joD+GpRUUDakiXNGewQQvMfG BQicICCSRpoJJWk3WmBu5Am4TF7S3uTNfoTiMbEqo6FiCkdxQ/BktHqWl9s0f5Wln3 xa2mVVP0/C9snOdhYr/kuy4i1+hpPDsbT5aGrhH8IkZvbdLUONdygh5gaHvR5R0yQ0 Qzu6JvdHGesNzFjYXZUty4zj5qybeZqwWQUuyMqJ0CnlJ3V7V0pttz+NHOPqtFlGmF kVH/FtlEOpZ0A== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id D9E63441588; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alfajor (modemcable005.21-80-70.mc.videotron.ca [70.80.21.5]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B0B57120618; Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Philip Kaludercic Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> Message-ID: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:31:39 -0400 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP AWL -0.203 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Stefan Kangas , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > In that case I misunderstood what you are referring to, but I agree that > it is a relevant concern. If you think it is worth it, I can check if > reducing the version of Compat is feasible, or if that would just > require the introduction of too many kludges. Again, I'm talking about changing only the `Package-Requires:` header, not changing the code. If the code uses a feature in a more recent version, then by all means, do bump up the `Package-Requires:` accordingly. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 24 14:27:50 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Mar 2025 18:27:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1twmWb-0005gK-OA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 14:27:50 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:57435) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1twmWY-0005fR-UE for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 14:27:47 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B3BB240103 for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742840859; bh=p0PHCDO6VVZX061v3PMxG8W1aP3U/ovmFas5Qv/ioSA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=Au8zxDAnPMOHVnJ7MozJbSbvWoFx9+xA+Pnpsrt4PFtJ58fT/S8d3pRHikGCh7XDo toBu58cRE0d0gIuBYH0jH6RaQxOWeHRK4hSJ+RlGavan3Ym1BfJz5+nQrO7XfRYwZ7 Nb2aM3TPIuJCqJnMel+y9nRZyRxKI1VhOeDf7pQ5ig12Z8BrRaCLUP7b77HN9nfExi Ti3TVIDGsGqT6KKV2IyC+QkRdQJ/aMG0YsGkSDUY8EQ4Rszwu+uUwlNf9bsMD95wvD N3a9yQ1MbfeBfGvgHfiAATIAQXe8f2yyh9Etr6HLRFY9Q7ZkWSAQ/SApiDS/aOMKDB p9O8y2BRt+7NQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZM1kL17PRz9rxF; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:27:37 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 18:27:37 +0000 Message-ID: <87y0wui8rq.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: 77075@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Philip Kaludercic writes: > >> As far as I am aware, the main objection to this idea is that this might >> introduce instability that is difficult to fix (If `package-delete' >> doesn't work, then it isn't obvious how to uninstall the newer >> package.el). Are there any other points we should discuss? > > Can you summarize what is our reply to that? Do we have a better > workaround than `rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa`? My idea was to have a specialised, specialised command to uninstall all ELPA versions of package.el. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 24 15:05:14 2025 Received: (at 77075) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Mar 2025 19:05:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58531 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1twn6n-0002bg-Kv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:05:13 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:46417) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1twn6j-0002Vl-L8 for 77075@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 15:05:11 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8646C24002B for <77075@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:05:03 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1742843103; bh=Rb8aiEfom/jxEcqgpyyaRiNL0IAMlIeGpZ58dcaaPzs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=f17LrUBVtGpeYhsSIt7vrTIcTXdDCSsNR7TR47a0x5Oa5TRVXc2lAmYTxP8FfzfOg Mr9n8GT1aco74vh+TVQWwCnudwnfLOr2+9Y7mEA4b/gHcw8KEBK+2+PKuT61vHESK1 t4YvFedeK6ZVroOrrYEK04eH7b5/9AKnX0GP9Qax3aZhy1q8BPPaHxfG6ymfjN3g1Y nrj7x31swoxzJpdDVkQGeLhEIly/vBh8k4jMuYiyDcqcCNCUTuhqt7abYhlxPNJQZr caiXT7dv4fgBDxKLvlA5brE4ok90z2ifwwBaqf0/tenirXAjvQ7mfPpmxqo6p5hl26 VWgeA+VWV9mRA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4ZM2YV2B8Fz6tsb; Mon, 24 Mar 2025 20:05:02 +0100 (CET) From: Philip Kaludercic To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#77075: [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA, [PATCH] Prepare package.el to be published on GNU ELPA In-Reply-To: References: <87jz8nwojp.fsf@posteo.net> <871puvsdrv.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87wmcmrjt4.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <87bjtyw8gh.fsf@posteo.net> <87v7s5f0kh.fsf@posteo.net> Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2025 19:05:01 +0000 Message-ID: <87tt7ii71e.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77075 Cc: Daniel Mendler , Stefan Kangas , 77075@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: >> In that case I misunderstood what you are referring to, but I agree that >> it is a relevant concern. If you think it is worth it, I can check if >> reducing the version of Compat is feasible, or if that would just >> require the introduction of too many kludges. > > Again, I'm talking about changing only the `Package-Requires:` > header, not changing the code. > If the code uses a feature in a more recent version, then by all means, > do bump up the `Package-Requires:` accordingly. At least according to package-lint, we appear not to be using any functionality added after Emacs 28. > > Stefan