From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:49:54 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#76993: Init files and UTF-8 Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 06:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 76993 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 76993@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.174184566522548 (code B ref -1); Thu, 13 Mar 2025 06:02:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2025 06:01:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52983 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tsbcu-0005rc-Pi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 02:01:05 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:52698) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tsbcs-0005qr-L8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:00:44 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:00:44 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JqApUecRPDtfycwa-13LOq1fWItpNX5L4dqnjqg-nQWgheqyK79jj7j1_E Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::533; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x533.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Severity: wishlist In (info "(emacs) Init Non-ASCII"), we read that: If you want to use non-ASCII characters in your init file, you should put a =E2=80=98-*-coding: CODING-SYSTEM-*-=E2=80=99 tag on the f= irst line of the init file, and specify a coding system that supports the character(s) in question. *Note Recognize Coding::. This is because the defaults for decoding non-ASCII text might not yet be set up by the time Emacs reads those parts of your init file which use such strings, possibly leading Emacs to decode those strings incorrectly. Is this correct? When I open ~/.emacs.d/init.el on this machine, `buffer-file-coding-system`, it is `prefer-utf-8-unix`, and I can't recall ever having had a problem with non-ASCII key bindings. Is the above only true on some platforms? Should that be noted, or should it be moved to some platform specific documentation? Should the default be changed somehow, such that we always use UTF-8 when reading the init file? From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:49:54 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#76993: Init files and UTF-8 Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 06:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 76993 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Kangas Cc: 76993@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 76993-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B76993.174184886732462 (code B ref 76993); Thu, 13 Mar 2025 06:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 76993) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2025 06:54:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tscSZ-0008RV-1O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 02:54:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tscSW-0008RH-5g for 76993@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 02:54:24 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tscSP-0005aH-QH; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 02:54:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=TSzLtUz36F6jdI9NPIuJUgXKXAqsmQg0buUSNSYRp9E=; b=al0EwRNm7mtwXtwe7Pd4 LGBKs3gFPl6/W+bdad0gfcQxabonoEgEOa03lLBVM527qfi45rnC0kFgxt9k/vq5YgmEPCXhwHMJV avVaxVVRKlK+IBXj0ntSlDZSxCDjib7yFw+9lTI86vEDaA9a8wu2L/TMX4o0N2eEmx/Kel9d+JdQk AL0XwTSdceI317AxcMKsiaGtXtfIoHbbluMNXtxSrnZFNil72YveEajZfMaeO6iDZBwKcewv+RDWk vWJZ2HQKROq90wBw7PyEwF+CGjEbDhxw09XWnK43j+SGiakizIQOkEo4taZoEGAJ9SK4E2eIPDYKU /yJljMzRCsVwkg==; Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 08:54:12 +0200 Message-Id: <86ecz14e0b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:00:44 -0700) References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:00:44 -0700 > > Severity: wishlist > > In (info "(emacs) Init Non-ASCII"), we read that: > > If you want to use non-ASCII characters in your init file, you > should put a ‘-*-coding: CODING-SYSTEM-*-’ tag on the first line of > the init file, and specify a coding system that supports the > character(s) in question. *Note Recognize Coding::. This is because > the defaults for decoding non-ASCII text might not yet be set up by > the time Emacs reads those parts of your init file which use such > strings, possibly leading Emacs to decode those strings incorrectly. > > Is this correct? When I open ~/.emacs.d/init.el on this machine, > `buffer-file-coding-system`, it is `prefer-utf-8-unix`, and I can't > recall ever having had a problem with non-ASCII key bindings. I'm guessing that that's because your system's encoding is UTF-8 to begin with. > Is the above only true on some platforms? What matters is the locale's codeset, not the platform. Though it is true that most users of most platforms except Windows use UTF-8 these days, I know of at least some users of GNU/Linux who still set up their systems to use non-UTF-8 encoding. > Should that be noted, or should it be moved to some platform > specific documentation? We could do that, but is that worth the hassle? . having a coding cookie can do no harm . having a coding cookie makes the init file portable and usable from several different systems with no subtle problems . explaining when this could matter and when it couldn't is not simple and could confuse users who do not know enough about locales and encodings > Should the default be changed somehow, such that we always use UTF-8 > when reading the init file? Why would we want to make such a breaking change, when all we suggest is to have a coding cookie, in a small minority of cases where init files bind non-ASCII keys? From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:49:54 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#76993: Init files and UTF-8 Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 07:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 76993 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 76993@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 76993-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B76993.17418496172578 (code B ref 76993); Thu, 13 Mar 2025 07:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 76993) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2025 07:06:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53171 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tscee-0000fV-Gy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 03:06:56 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::529]:45283) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tsceb-0000f9-SD for 76993@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 03:06:54 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e686d39ba2so1134269a12.2 for <76993@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741849607; x=1742454407; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DHtSeMYNQ21Ph5eH9bpWdhh8LXVgBEBT/sxq7fF8Rpw=; b=jjvcE8WaJTCsN7ud55UStezAmP7bM6b65oHaMfO4GVzsUj8SRWQk3Y8AU1EnST6Gq3 KL1NbxYbPFBH5ziPceWbnPZALx8ZyLAr//+fDzWJ6s4+3fH/YZt5SDU8EHZfJANOElrM 7qyuay0OMncttDxiqG32x7a2cFEH1dowB1/t0DJErf7N1nUYn/vefT/rrNxK3CHz4cae xKtnsCrLdOQ8+OOlPmicIJugWh4oL2kgorR1lUP9A1VwNRrC00YdNUwjrwR+GVFDSmXw 2iRNA5nG543bqz0lwMtFaP1gZdFDmnVTRI+7Zb6U9WPymuqC63tfkNxPPCvdd3s0dH58 7wcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741849607; x=1742454407; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DHtSeMYNQ21Ph5eH9bpWdhh8LXVgBEBT/sxq7fF8Rpw=; b=LsCeRUuHgBF61IfKwBpUt/9Kd6kxzmAW4R+9ey7qtLYoBXHUb3PrYXegLDrVH5+DB1 Ka6N0V+cc/ds+P6KOjSng5xiprvr4YFN/L1bpPXw/YHhUy9COjKtfbFDunGlrPnE7fvc OZVa+P+2es5ig2NDey9k8KH7G6posouSKmvngYeKsSNOqcMO8sCbS2yCzWV4ef1pRfHe alpNyy0h55qn9Jwugu/ZF1Pt5EVYAMD1r1mQRboZ//S3rFP9gDKsq9/dDyvmSaiQeX+c Ho5hfSgF4LwSiVQZvoc7D2E5iIDJbX/tpL1eJGPhnqL6cRiq6giNHpzEVU47KvKGWBlP L+vQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxhr7gSbSFxFXiXJojn6vB8kQnFRljeSuZdxE59YNDl07zCRuLm HEGqRLxUoLpkOHMIgFgPci61GFS04qIct4B9V5masKg13cw3Jt86CVOsnNccsj6mGGyIWGorHKX JK+ETEAwzRCvLYpj/2CI8j6v+Ov0= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvkbWfddyY4cxxVQBCrrZo3ccZ/sEAVOVmO5cpjqj1HeiIJq322GDeJiJAiAy8 CJBnUHmXBW44eiqnaDMcBB2oYtSMmLjCNJB+bBqeVpEihMMViuhS3FxG4a+/yNax+8IVzcK86c7 rvNlsNAHDciZQsdmVfL+WO3tcgjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGoG8JuBNs12Dlr1Qcay3IV3J59uB7uqs7aPgoplh9bAfP/gwcpUZCv6qHaDXaVfrW+urTspjkKeyTw50gAV1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1e88:b0:5e5:cb92:e770 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e75de575cfmr13284125a12.1.1741849607049; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:45 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <86ecz14e0b.fsf@gnu.org> References: <86ecz14e0b.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:45 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JpuBJ86_KLShCeal-byIVkf2v5kegmGP2PRbGhM6KbRShp7mSgLpfjMF-Q Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Is the above only true on some platforms? > > What matters is the locale's codeset, not the platform. Though it is > true that most users of most platforms except Windows use UTF-8 these > days, I know of at least some users of GNU/Linux who still set up > their systems to use non-UTF-8 encoding. Sure, I can see that some people will do that. They will run into all kinds of fun, I'm sure, and not just in Emacs. >> Should that be noted, or should it be moved to some platform >> specific documentation? > > We could do that, but is that worth the hassle? > > . having a coding cookie can do no harm > . having a coding cookie makes the init file portable and usable from > several different systems with no subtle problems The main hassle is not the coding cookie, but the complication of having an entire section in the documentation. I was thinking that perhaps we could spare our users that. The portability argument is fair enough. Maybe this suggests that this might no longer warrant a section in the manual and could be moved to (for example) the MS-Windows FAQ, or something? > . explaining when this could matter and when it couldn't is not > simple and could confuse users who do not know enough about locales > and encodings > >> Should the default be changed somehow, such that we always use UTF-8 >> when reading the init file? > > Why would we want to make such a breaking change, when all we suggest > is to have a coding cookie, in a small minority of cases where init > files bind non-ASCII keys? Maybe this "small minority of cases" part could be clarified without getting into the details. The section reads to me as if it's always a problem, which seems misleading. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:49:54 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#76993: Init files and UTF-8 Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 07:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 76993 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Kangas Cc: 76993@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 76993-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B76993.174185234911085 (code B ref 76993); Thu, 13 Mar 2025 07:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 76993) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Mar 2025 07:52:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53336 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tsdMj-0002sj-47 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 03:52:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tsdMf-0002sW-V4 for 76993@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 03:52:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tsdMa-0006R5-JI; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 03:52:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=oss3o1BRPTS+1VGnf2uRDat+XhMDGPh/OBKhRJx4ejY=; b=VQp4pOJ2Hv/g MuoDDtiVClhXaX4neYOmR5pUjO2hBFioStlZ20YS71gByZNUL+DPTiGgMbz/GdBBhEUlVJo9YnHib Z6y6DNCBo9eIsWQtyjYZyW02h7r02bU9PwSH19yyLdV6JeU0ciLdaOkJZxmTN+3gzRGhfDceYeSpx XoaPP3m1ZX1ZrPskgATWhTahrGGZmTtddnJ9L0lkyLADLYaPod3fumCp8kZBB+UlABpmWTfxko+eV P9GYAfcf2L2lvTh0EsWuRNAYtX4j5/HH4VV9cJH8ooU2cPcGR/2k1LnWujVoNIuGpanOk5UF20DSw Lx82BBCWCezHxUgqhl/A2g==; Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 09:52:18 +0200 Message-Id: <865xkd4bbh.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:45 -0700) References: <86ecz14e0b.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:06:45 -0700 > Cc: 76993@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> Is the above only true on some platforms? > > > > What matters is the locale's codeset, not the platform. Though it is > > true that most users of most platforms except Windows use UTF-8 these > > days, I know of at least some users of GNU/Linux who still set up > > their systems to use non-UTF-8 encoding. > > Sure, I can see that some people will do that. > > They will run into all kinds of fun, I'm sure, and not just in Emacs. Emacs should fully support such a setup. The fact that it works on MS-Windows is the best evidence to that effect. > >> Should that be noted, or should it be moved to some platform > >> specific documentation? > > > > We could do that, but is that worth the hassle? > > > > . having a coding cookie can do no harm > > . having a coding cookie makes the init file portable and usable from > > several different systems with no subtle problems > > The main hassle is not the coding cookie, but the complication of having > an entire section in the documentation. I was thinking that perhaps we > could spare our users that. > > The portability argument is fair enough. Maybe this suggests that this > might no longer warrant a section in the manual and could be moved to > (for example) the MS-Windows FAQ, or something? The section about key bindings in init files will be incomplete without that information. This was written in response to real problems people had in real use cases. We could move it into a sub-subsection of "Init Examples", which will move it out of the way to some extent. > Maybe this "small minority of cases" part could be clarified without > getting into the details. The section reads to me as if it's always a > problem, which seems misleading. Feel free to suggest changes in wording to make it less scary and misleading.