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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) (elisp)`Character Properties' describes variable `printable-chars', but it doesn't say what "printable" means in this context. Please add something about that. Searching the manual elsewhere, we find only a mention in node `Usual Display' of "printable ASCII characters" and non-printable ASCII control characters". But the printable chars, in general, are not limited to printable ASCII control chars, so this mention doesn't help with understanding `printable-chars'. Please say what's meant by "printable" for `printable-chars'. [ And I wonder if something shouldn't perhaps be added about (Lisp) readability in this context. Some things in Lisp have a print representation but that can't be read by the Lisp reader. I believe all printable chars can be read by the reader. It wouldn't hurt to mention this. ] In GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2025-02-20 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19045.5487) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2 prefix=3D/g/rel/emacs-30.1-rc1' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) Important settings: value of $LANG: ENU locale-coding-system: cp1252 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 28 09:33:54 2025 Received: (at 76611) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2025 14:33:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47924 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1to1R3-0004sM-Nb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 09:33:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1to1R0-0004rq-HU for 76611@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 09:33:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1to1Qt-00031D-O2; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 09:33:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=33VQQ4Z402qOua52NJQEqJsd/SSRfh44CoFxiWH5XeY=; b=KD+Q2wsKIPuq qshXooJowHrZJyACKQMn7c/v6jFSNg/+F3Mm97TC7mtKqMakys7RMF9eTvEBpDc3NPCOuySmnlbQq 9ayT9nYcdmUOhVTFcNs5OYEG8UeFIPXLJcFFfsQo8cUHE7HBJPbtBjProRpP0w/ONU3WgAJd4kxFi dl09FUZuv/o4Lj6Pqss9mSP6dItq/c92qMye/J4hm2y9JGvz3I1BEVgZhySc2fzVbU2lxELzVV6QO C083UvV/61FXGzmxg3Ofn50vcLhqFBTm4S+7Jl2yFJgRh8cZK+Da6iyZzPgfE5qs6+aFAzbD8yvPE 9rRH6K9oDzhhl+XSFW40Ag==; Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:32:55 +0200 Message-Id: <86h64ervfs.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#76611: 30.1; Elisp manual: Say what it means for a char to be printable References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76611 Cc: 76611@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 17:48:40 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > (elisp)`Character Properties' describes variable `printable-chars', but > it doesn't say what "printable" means in this context. Please add > something about that. > > Searching the manual elsewhere, we find only a mention in node `Usual > Display' of "printable ASCII characters" and non-printable ASCII control > characters". > > But the printable chars, in general, are not limited to printable ASCII > control chars, so this mention doesn't help with understanding > `printable-chars'. If you don't know what are printable characters, how did you deduce that they are not limited to ASCII? (No, don't answer that.) > Please say what's meant by "printable" for `printable-chars'. I added on the master branch a cross-reference to where the [:print:] regexp character class is described, because that's what "printable character" means in Emacs. But the more serious problem with the printable-chars table was that its value was incorrect for many Unicode codepoints; I fixed that as well. > [ And I wonder if something shouldn't perhaps be added about (Lisp) > readability in this context. Some things in Lisp have a print > representation but that can't be read by the Lisp reader. I believe all > printable chars can be read by the reader. It wouldn't hurt to mention > this. ] I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Is something missing from the "Character Type" node of the ELisp manual and its sub-nodes, wrt the read syntax of characters? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 77624d25-6667-4e91-6f94-08dd58212af7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2025 17:56:03.4236 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: jjD+V57odSLFtZA21av4IE2mQIS9//9/XllXw3w8aDQtYUEQo75zwcqbBDDHVjgwu6S561rSWAZRePKSRRIwjw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS7PR10MB4925 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-28_05,2025-02-27_01,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=844 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2502100000 definitions=main-2502280131 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: uaATiC8yUMZzWrzZRKlUW9XmCC_hwLjq X-Proofpoint-GUID: uaATiC8yUMZzWrzZRKlUW9XmCC_hwLjq X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76611 Cc: "76611@debbugs.gnu.org" <76611@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > (elisp)`Character Properties' describes variable `printable-chars', > but > > it doesn't say what "printable" means in this context. Please add > > something about that. > > > > Searching the manual elsewhere, we find only a mention in node `Usual > > Display' of "printable ASCII characters" and non-printable ASCII > control > > characters". > > > > But the printable chars, in general, are not limited to printable > ASCII > > control chars, so this mention doesn't help with understanding > > `printable-chars'. >=20 > If you don't know what are printable characters, how did you deduce > that they are not limited to ASCII? (No, don't answer that.) >=20 > > Please say what's meant by "printable" for `printable-chars'. >=20 > I added on the master branch a cross-reference to where the [:print:] > regexp character class is described, because that's what "printable > character" means in Emacs. >=20 > But the more serious problem with the printable-chars table was that > its value was incorrect for many Unicode codepoints; I fixed that as > well. Thank you! > > [ And I wonder if something shouldn't perhaps be added about (Lisp) > > readability in this context. Some things in Lisp have a print > > representation but that can't be read by the Lisp reader. I believe > all > > printable chars can be read by the reader. It wouldn't hurt to > mention > > this. ] >=20 > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Is something > missing from the "Character Type" node of the ELisp manual and its > sub-nodes, wrt the read syntax of characters? I had in mind just mentioning in the context of the doc about printable chars that what's printed can be read by the Lisp reader. This is different from the read syntax of character objects: ?. It's not about reading character objects as such. It's about the reader's handling of printable chars. (aref printable-chars ?^L) =3D> nil (pretend it's ^L) A Ctrl-L char isn't read by the reader, e.g. as part of a symbol name. But now that I think about it, it would probably be more confusing than helpful, because to explain it would dig a new rabbit hole, to no good. Feel free to close, if you haven't already. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 28 13:56:12 2025 Received: (at 76611-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Feb 2025 18:56:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52771 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1to5Wt-0003ex-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 13:56:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1to5Wr-0003ed-9N for 76611-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 13:56:10 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1to5Wl-00014W-Hv; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 13:56:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=b9KbamIkxHFGHgQtrckQ8KqXp+AhH4stkakDT22oSSA=; b=enzrjRySdIzB J+Ms2yNLtX7TqvO/lcWG3OZ0pnMMpd/9s39aMNfFw/0ATLWaBQW7p0E5/NVoArzX0jhpl9C1f4Ekr GWeVkh8PQaJ8jGwHLWDeIDSca989pX6yYrB/zf1cLz4S7i1dgtQiQTmV4/1ZXpkS6SticAyYmQBD9 1sa8JX9ET5utF8aKR2OhBG2RK0qa8IWhOrKVDGacopbDCoVH6XkUAdSAjoX09Qm1TWBGAdtUoNWpH cpTiB56z+CNZNQ1Q3la7Ph7MscSX/87eKkkjxE5Y7jK3arISEymTWX5WM7gBO5ZjCQtbXyb9/V3y/ Z1cXyNmvfmj6DLCFzQrc6Q==; Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 20:56:02 +0200 Message-Id: <867c59sxtp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:56:03 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#76611: 30.1; Elisp manual: Say what it means for a char to be printable References: <86h64ervfs.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76611-done Cc: 76611-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "76611@debbugs.gnu.org" <76611@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:56:03 +0000 > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Is something > > missing from the "Character Type" node of the ELisp manual and its > > sub-nodes, wrt the read syntax of characters? > > I had in mind just mentioning in the context of the > doc about printable chars that what's printed can > be read by the Lisp reader. > > This is different from the read syntax of character > objects: ?. It's not about reading character > objects as such. It's about the reader's handling > of printable chars. > > (aref printable-chars ?^L) => nil (pretend it's ^L) > > A Ctrl-L char isn't read by the reader, e.g. as part > of a symbol name. > > But now that I think about it, it would probably be > more confusing than helpful, because to explain it > would dig a new rabbit hole, to no good. > > Feel free to close, if you haven't already. Done now. From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:04:44 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 11:24:14 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator