From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 18:09:36 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 23:09:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37218 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXTb-00037W-JG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:36 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:35284) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXTY-000371-3o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXTJ-0001g4-59 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXTI-0004iL-SM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:Subject:To:From:mime-version:in-reply-to: references; bh=zMZQSsFq7cL0EvMoTcOI/QacWE7Hu89Gm5dnAw993yE=; b=hyQIxlm2M8EsL3 bEhxv6RjA5V3VSo2aUIM9TXvK/miPdE3pipv8vMiNQ1SlfCbNiVjFLUm7HJsoxkjIxyVRLuIApPUT KgGO1LQvtsII1wmcmlDFKSVxB28NNVFtf9u9HOEKo6hR4kJotIPbDWcbU1g9ek43M6zQXTsN60BAR s+wXcfPYsYZJq6uxf53XT7q/PSik48Mf5e+XTZ69ecY2Q10SW8tN67nfmv636opP94bUhAa7SmC7R 9CI/pjbB2GvqLB8noovIaGRSpsB3VK/aWOKtYocsIlYtAE8aV+Th6MWXxrKqZ2aycCKKXLQUv9UHU 3doKLuatHrc6V7AD6EEQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXTH-0006Sk-OQ; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:16 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual Message-Id: Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:15 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I just lookd atthe definition of `defvar' in the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual and saw that many sentences use the passve voice. Here in the first paragraph are two instanes: This special form defines SYMBOL as a variable. Note that SYMBOL is not evaluated; the symbol to be defined should appear explicitly in the ‘defvar’ form. The variable is marked as “special”, Replacing them with active voice makes the text clearer in several ways. This special form defines SYMBOL as a variable. It does ot evaluate SYMBOL--the symbol to be defined should appear explicitly in the ‘defvar’ form. `defvar' also marks SYMBOL as “special” Here is a third instance, in an infinitive in the same paragraph: , meaning that it should always be dynamically bound (*note Variable Scoping::). should be so that every binding of the variable SYMBOL will be dynamic, not lexical (*note Variable Scoping::) It has been customary for manuals to use the passive voice, perhaps following a custom in scientific writing. Maybe people working on the manual have followed that practice, but it doesn't make for readable writing. But I had learned in the 1980s that active voice is clearer. We don't want our manuals to read like scientific papers. I am pretty sure I rewrote the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual early on to use the active voice by default, and wrote this text in the GNU Coding Standards: Whenever possible, please stick to the active voice, avoiding the passive, and use the present tense, not the future tense. For instance, write ``The function @code{foo} returns a list containing @var{a} and @var{b}'' rather than ``A list containing @var{a} and @var{b} will be returned.'' One advantage of the active voice is it requires you to state the subject of the sentence; with the passive voice, you might omit the subject, which leads to vagueness. So I looked at revsion 6336d8c3d7812815d083de055229ebb840fe6159 in 2007. In that version, this text had one active voice: This special form defines @var{symbol} as a variable and can also initialize and document it. The definition informs a person reading your code that @var{symbol} is used as a variable that might be set or changed. Note that @var{symbol} is not evaluated; the symbol to be defined must appear explicitly in the @code{defvar}. The last sentence there was passive already, but I have a hunch hat in 1996 (before we used git) it was active too. The next paragraph in the file, in the current version. If @var{value} is specified, and @var{symbol} is void (i.e., it has no dynamically bound value; @pxref{Void Variables}), then @var{value} is evaluated and @var{symbol} is set to the result. But if @var{symbol} is not void, @var{value} is not evaluated, and @var{symbol}'s value is left unchanged. If @var{value} is omitted, the value of @var{symbol} is not changed in any case. is also very passive. The 2007 version If @var{symbol} is void and @var{value} is specified, @code{defvar} evaluates it and sets @var{symbol} to the result. But if @var{symbol} already has a value (i.e., it is not void), @var{value} is not even evaluated, and @var{symbol}'s value remains unchanged. If @var{value} is omitted, the value of @var{symbol} is not changed in any case. Has active voice in a couple of places. We could make it better than that, like this: If @var{symbol} is void and you specify @var{value}, @code{defvar} evaluates it and sets @var{symbol} to the result. But if @var{symbol} already has a value (i.e., it is not void), @code{defvar} does not change its value. and it does not even evaluate @var{value}. If you omit @var{value}, @code{defvar} does not change the value. It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 18:28:05 2025 Received: (at 76135) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2025 23:28:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXlV-00042r-1f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:28:05 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:52237) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgXlR-00042J-W6 for 76135@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:28:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1738970873; x=1739575673; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=BUTS2h1S6qAmTDcERobn4wvDB5LZE9CfGJdqhYdl5Es=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=FxZS8YF42vj82O5QR80+6xHf/KFeuDetM9f/wWRjlc7gMhiIbgZsJpH/4NQRAHZZ /sNsdIvtNYI1+ghl9JpmZm/mkFGkCgQl3h/Yro1DLqwtyAh4DSASqSbfPLG6OwfMZ 0w5sTZ1j7hjOEqgKsyfnmVhqlt8gJU89EP43WFSoc0EZPlyrV6HLV3HVJ3ubFnWWT H0BPHtPikgntURuk8G9x7YfAble2gIXLggHwViMkP+k+v8YXx1MJJ8x4P8ewozSR/ yEv6nPM1GGy0Mg9C3rOjq+57WOWyLJiucu0S72SEsBmmceFxmE/zspmtzfsDABQFg ZKczoi3RsK2wNlncNg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [77.71.252.27] ([77.71.252.27]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Sat, 8 Feb 2025 00:27:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2025 00:27:53 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HthDG64DwKE676/bAr/+M1FleDjlaOddeWBMFcKduJBV1fbd3yvg7FcL8YgTwB3VKIGKQ Q+09htOad63OXZjhha8szVCDYm2no78bMVMJwke1OY/DY92rOStfrWLvya2vp1rnjpudPxiVu4/T 4wGBugTLtmVA48M+Z9963DpB+qlrp5ZDmQSRv2ce2/64EUK1AwudmYplg67gQfp+0wlKtDtiRiwO rHdUe0sMZRRrpY099hXVZ/icfOGqFiN/vlzkp+/QKh7yfzqOmkIlZPjv8NSy4rO5CUsOUGqYi/9q WQ= X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:4ucBy43qTPs=;kZGNKhFsPadKE7uo0yajxXRWPgI 3zBuQF/D8/xOcGPxV8sHw0omc7UDSkAxN8JBMLOOLULmu2Ki4bELwoKgYd0n1Evwv9jrYUkrz nBvWD8alavbcJlQbXuP5BX00sLkTPQJkFnfp430WyZS2W9OEMpJL0O2RANdX586gt+YUEepEX E2OIzKakp44kG2UHbuUkol+Z1WeMaToMpe2DaWVoN3+9i+kf34KwRfxHWCM7S9WRo1EUy7fF9 03fknaSbVfHjU+kkFmHPcFCquRUwLcvZGKb45fGzx04EghWr6Yzl+1/PRciZCia8jhmdKy990 2P6KqG7UkQH6tc71GBGfB8+bfU0Bc3rzsmGDS5DTIOWgUoha9sUaWNkulPDEcbyfVl7gHDaUJ z+f3WPa2S5UfAHeUU5Odd2igE06Xo2L2ohKTntHlqsfQGn5egBhFeuKPwMUuGWOgqBXdndc6Y qQSYYkE/P94Xp50hcMBVIui87nan5LNdBoGk3q6HD5i0i/FCom7u/NsLJ/D23qgdt1EQZRzCF HbWTY0oF0SrjpSV3eFqJdiSPL3pJI34qTF0tmgubf2An+2TM6Haqk0MkU1sjbUZ5QB5vyPPqC 69D7rpwozwP8BNYXdITO1LhiNQWXp6/yB2FDKyPvUfuFWA5hSDWvP3z0U5DtdEYRCxBtjq8JW 0fB2FUWCUBESOzALGpCiXLEWKUrKhv2vhvsnhbvhyFEjM4FANTc0Wcq8+FGHhBcoR6ZlL4Pd4 30xzWjAfID9+7zYH/JDXrq3yiAw6uiQtU5htChRD60z6rk3tYCROgi4PvujwJ2rnnYQS7V87v 6pxfOJTY0PGB95RDSljA+UT7PBLv0imTn74hC+8lBLRtH3eCm0FZc12M8A9uzWoUv8KWSAymh yGvA/60uDxzwGYafdTU+gPEGln98ZkBy/K/oILFFTL4DJvaSbmNZG2DCMkc2otX5Sbml193ak WAX06SRuMmhWcfAMcZnQaLyEESiKFSob5ZWUGSSGe1kMjlhoufkO4lP/3JkwcSuBF4EL1P2KQ yC5ugnYej+Ru4VgXemHnqZvrSoPQT7fyGJvEPDfx1peBQD9sZNC8yFpQpGhZOP1xwesk1NG47 H5capluSfIf2BLp34n7qzR/9HXjrqaZY20IEPS/HXaiRgZnGQ7YVCfOeTXSHEolr/rAoxzx15 jcgoO7UwTm2p5/+QBna00RzC3NcEVIZJam4xoAGv31V+5e1mNR3QRZLCBqPfGsKd9kEVgcqaJ eilP7yBS6CQDk7dkoqLqZc41xQVAFbkqYQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76135 Cc: 76135@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2025 at 11:09 AM > From: "Richard Stallman" > To: 76135@debbugs=2Egnu=2Eorg > Subject: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example=2E ]]] >=20 > I just lookd atthe definition of `defvar' in the Emacs Lisp Reference > Manual and saw that many sentences use the passve voice=2E >=20 > Here in the first paragraph are two instanes: >=20 > This special form defines SYMBOL as a variable=2E Note that SYMBOL > is not evaluated; the symbol to be defined should appear explicitly > in the =E2=80=98defvar=E2=80=99 form=2E The variable is marked as = =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D,=20 >=20 > Replacing them with active voice makes the text clearer in several > ways=2E Active voice is clearer=2E =20 > This special form defines SYMBOL as a variable=2E It does ot > evaluate SYMBOL--the symbol to be defined should appear explicitly > in the =E2=80=98defvar=E2=80=99 form=2E `defvar' also marks SYMBOL= as =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D >=20 > Here is a third instance, in an infinitive in the same paragraph: >=20 > , meaning that it should always be dynamically bound (*note Variable > Scoping::)=2E >=20 > should be >=20 > so that every binding of the variable SYMBOL will be dynamic, > not lexical (*note Variable Scoping::) >=20 > It has been customary for manuals to use the passive voice, perhaps > following a custom in scientific writing=2E Maybe people working on the > manual have followed that practice, but it doesn't make for readable > writing=2E But I had learned in the 1980s that active voice is clearer= =2E > We don't want our manuals to read like scientific papers=2E =20 > I am pretty sure I rewrote the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual early on > to use the active voice by default, and wrote this text > in the GNU Coding Standards: >=20 > Whenever possible, please stick to the active voice, avoiding the > passive, and use the present tense, not the future tense=2E For > instance, write ``The function @code{foo} returns a list containing > @var{a} and @var{b}'' rather than ``A list containing @var{a} and > @var{b} will be returned=2E'' One advantage of the active voice is = it > requires you to state the subject of the sentence; with the passive > voice, you might omit the subject, which leads to vagueness=2E >=20 > So I looked at revsion 6336d8c3d7812815d083de055229ebb840fe6159 in > 2007=2E In that version, this text had one active voice: >=20 > This special form defines @var{symbol} as a variable and can also > initialize and document it=2E The definition informs a person readi= ng > your code that @var{symbol} is used as a variable that might be set = or > changed=2E Note that @var{symbol} is not evaluated; the symbol to b= e > defined must appear explicitly in the @code{defvar}=2E >=20 > The last sentence there was passive already, but I have a hunch > hat in 1996 (before we used git) it was active too=2E >=20 > The next paragraph in the file, in the current version=2E >=20 > If @var{value} is specified, and @var{symbol} is void (i=2Ee=2E, it = has no > dynamically bound value; @pxref{Void Variables}), then @var{value} i= s > evaluated and @var{symbol} is set to the result=2E But if @var{symb= ol} > is not void, @var{value} is not evaluated, and @var{symbol}'s value = is > left unchanged=2E If @var{value} is omitted, the value of @var{symb= ol} > is not changed in any case=2E >=20 > is also very passive=2E The 2007 version >=20 > If @var{symbol} is void and @var{value} is specified, @code{defvar} > evaluates it and sets @var{symbol} to the result=2E But if @var{sym= bol} > already has a value (i=2Ee=2E, it is not void), @var{value} is not e= ven > evaluated, and @var{symbol}'s value remains unchanged=2E If @var{va= lue} > is omitted, the value of @var{symbol} is not changed in any case=2E >=20 > Has active voice in a couple of places=2E >=20 > We could make it better than that, like this: >=20 > If @var{symbol} is void and you specify @var{value}, @code{defvar} > evaluates it and sets @var{symbol} to the result=2E But if @var{sym= bol} > already has a value (i=2Ee=2E, it is not void), @code{defvar} does n= ot > change its value=2E and it does not even evaluate @var{value}=2E > If you omit @var{value}, @code{defvar} does not change the value=2E >=20 > It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, > which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read=2E =20 There has been a tendency for people to do more prose=2E Have got into some discussions with Leslie Lamport, who worked on formal correctness =20 about writing mathematical proofs=2E =20 One quickly discovers that the approach based on excessive prose collapses= =20 under the weight of the complexity of any nontrivial proof=2E One becomes lost in a maze of details, and can't keep track of what had and had not=20 been proved at any point=2E > --=20 > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman=2Eorg) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu=2Eorg) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf=2Eorg) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame=2Eorg) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 08 06:33:21 2025 Received: (at 76135) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2025 11:33:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38867 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgj5N-0003RE-E9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2025 06:33:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51668) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tgj5K-0003Qw-Dm for 76135@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2025 06:33:19 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tgj5E-0005Bj-ST for 76135@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2025 06:33:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=/LUnf1ZSSGzee6ew1nuSuMKWqH3cgDYKCAuJtCJMfkM=; b=OO746oBUdvyt Bao44DRopHxufoNH5wlORDnpx0/zrA9r55AJQQGKrij+FmMMLUSpZQ3QfPSuM0q7Byzmf+8/zm6qO 04yANX8MTu6BshTTp+1wPCPVuaBOyU/wxSOznFoxJQPBcSPR/HSoY0++5oLrshVZNEbF/kJ7RRZO7 KbZpEo7B/ncnoK39hzO+RCFDvFFx8LH51I+OFpjUwuLfPIFqyMlpW18OYZhp3eaD5cy/9uriUIoh0 jAo4TivccKrHf+N9gxmD9UWOuaXmu60Bt/GYht5u1P81wKk7Aklgf4P6GZdmqHUl23Wi1jNylFD1R 7u+mV79yA8Kxt2Y6PNSzNA==; Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2025 13:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:15 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76135 Cc: 76135@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:15 -0500 > > It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, > which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read. We try to find these cases during patch review and flag them, but it's an uphill battle that never ends. 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Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:11:53 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> References: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:11:53 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZmG_7J3FwRKFNx2lx1CK1HPcOFSA7evn0mJicpK0O3HH-7038gbtswXx3Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76135 Cc: 76135@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Richard Stallman >> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:15 -0500 >> >> It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, >> which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read. > > We try to find these cases during patch review and flag them, but it's > an uphill battle that never ends. I think we fixed the issues that were indicated here. Can this bug be closed? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 11 08:10:56 2025 Received: (at 76135-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Feb 2025 13:10:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54985 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1thq2R-0001BU-Ns for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:10:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34346) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1thq2P-0001B6-K7 for 76135-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:10:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1thq2K-0007Pr-6V; Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:10:48 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=nEJbxztZjklBSNUVAr2wHrhlA/7yubM6u9ZczXhulxc=; b=KlCs09uL2Sc1 PjOycxoEqruNKAEmLxOp6XXxTyTueVNI8zhLZVWVytHL2YA8jBNlLd1vW/bMJOfbuxCk1YjB4axxv W4imOlwsUmxqlMmZ+XJov+bvmyJcB0bBX0gj2FqO6w58u0OfcjBnfB0xJyaST1OZ9eAJ35JHJVgbu PfAWDWBqWfo6IgbUIGHmJ5F5ZjJv9BYdrswnbiRxZn3Sx8K1yGmEbZy6J8gL8j3nPiV46wxHJkxTr GQWPgHojx9TEn3cRf5P03UkEbBGsI4vxSzdoIvtzEKTK7xA/LYhEhONWRhYeEk73QrvSODYp7c7aj 4qlXKEx5Xg8mA086IOC9+w==; Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:10:39 +0200 Message-Id: <861pw4y6cw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:11:53 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual References: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76135-done Cc: rms@gnu.org, 76135-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:11:53 -0800 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, 76135@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Richard Stallman > >> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2025 18:09:15 -0500 > >> > >> It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, > >> which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read. > > > > We try to find these cases during patch review and flag them, but it's > > an uphill battle that never ends. > > I think we fixed the issues that were indicated here. > > Can this bug be closed? Yes, done. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Feb 12 05:38:27 2025 Received: (at 76135) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2025 10:38:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32857 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tiA8Q-0000Li-Q2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:38:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43204) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tiA8M-0000LO-3U for 76135@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:38:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tiA8G-0000sH-1T for 76135@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:38:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=7Os9NhVEi9Oc4hYf6w+4KleAWMd5mo/FJo2kTjgdjC8=; b=FUlaFssrj73x VceQX4gHCIgr+ZHKo4S/Ed5jQgnG9W83F7Rz+uWCHEd4q4F7lQDfFXWwkANO/VKVx003EEyywWdlG IZmtYxjbji4MwBc+25zMZgVNFRV4+BjXHfgy0U6MvuA4ez2Xdk2fDvOhGL3FE1TEJbSnbEM4UE8EH /fqg53dXHLw8h7Y+ntE0h8J4GXCC70oMN6JTxHC10IPnB/a4w8lP1Ngak3b08BFi7XJfCHEMgvNYN bC7uWSClMqpEBtbgQ8e5xUFpqFqBQ+gA9erRxK4W7KqLpY7N1xOlFIg8z6XhAPgKrB7ts0Zh2b8BD 5NuAM0H3CGjkcUvcQ5YpGA==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tiA8F-00079p-5m; Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:38:15 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 08 Feb 2025 13:32:43 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#76135: passive voice in Emacs Lisp Reference Manual References: <864j143c4k.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:38:15 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 76135 Cc: 76135@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > It seems that people have a tendency to reqrite text into passive voice, > > which is gradually making the manual a little harder to read. > We try to find these cases during patch review and flag them, but it's > an uphill battle that never ends. I know what that is like. Let's ask everyone to look for these when they read code or Info, and report or fix them. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Wed Aug 20 03:11:03 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:24:19 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator