From unknown Sat Aug 16 16:00:18 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#75634 <75634@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#75634 <75634@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode Reply-To: bug#75634 <75634@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 23:00:18 +0000 retitle 75634 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode reassign 75634 emacs submitter 75634 Howard Melman severity 75634 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 17 11:03:26 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Jan 2025 16:03:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tYoog-0004jC-Ha for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:03:26 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:53424) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tYooc-0004iw-NI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Fri, 17 Jan 2025 08:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([72.85.185.24]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6e1afc1ab60sm12541306d6.14.2025.01.17.08.03.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jan 2025 08:03:10 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Melman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6.1.9\)) Subject: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:02:59 -0500 To: GNU Emacs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6.1.9) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34; envelope-from=hmelman@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf34.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) I was reading emacs-devel in gnus and while reading a patch I wanted to lookup named-let in the manual. I ran info-lookup-symbol but instead of having info open as usual I was confronted with the prompt "Use symbol help mode: ". My completion system (vertico) showed me a bunch of elisp symbols, though it didn't quite register that they all ended in "-mode" and I was wondering why named-let wasn't the symbol at the top of the list as would normally happen. I now understand the reason for this. It needs to find the right manual and normally looks that up based on the major mode, but gnus-article-mode wasn't of help here, so it was asking me which major mode to use; but I didn't understand the prompt and think it could be improved. The prompt is in info-lookup-change-mode and the "symbol" is either "symbol" or "file" depending on how the lookup command was invoked. I think something like "Major-mode to lookup %s with: " would be much clearer. It would be even better if the prompt could include the actual string that would be looked up ("named-let" in my example). Howard In GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin21.6.0, Carbon Version 165 AppKit 2113.6) of 2023-08-08 built on Mac-1691500888998.local Repository revision: e173249a143cee72d59ae78c4e11038512f5a00f Repository branch: 29.1-mac-10.0 Windowing system distributor 'Apple Inc.', version 13.7.2 System Description: macOS 13.7.2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 18 06:22:47 2025 Received: (at 75634) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jan 2025 11:22:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40469 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZ6ud-0004mD-Gy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 06:22:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZ6ub-0004lu-0s for 75634@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 06:22:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZ6uV-0000Nb-Hk; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 06:22:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=i05Ttlua4swLjUMH0m9yIQ1SGMGnq/R78VFI5NBVTQ4=; b=OJGyJkLSO3r9 PMqnbUa9dD5NYeezYp1qR8yXe5BVlxTTQ6umHM1YLei8GB8HMQbg1sYRLTXGS0cuYm0Kl5B4yRy9C Qys1jzdtNULtnT8ZKVhnNtmkELvn437NG5GFB1K6ezf0W74IHbg8dyfQnZhbJfxlIaVbyuMJVjFg5 SLBQQ8bRFrFZiyCL8VXR6/xSw0Outek2Chw0ICQ1c0h+aG42wFqgZxUDhx6fTNpT0y2CRqhimtiYX xCYkb+n5PIoNYmmOrzJFrptkKgoZaJKBMPHjLWvqXWeDhUG2EgkEG8PL8epEPmQ73l2xj3KKZW2KP aGV7IregQqW5MBuGOXUHJw==; Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:22:22 +0200 Message-Id: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:02:59 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75634 Cc: 75634@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:02:59 -0500 > > I was reading emacs-devel in gnus and while reading a patch > I wanted to lookup named-let in the manual. I ran > info-lookup-symbol but instead of having info open as usual > I was confronted with the prompt "Use symbol help mode: ". > My completion system (vertico) showed me a bunch of elisp > symbols, though it didn't quite register that they all ended > in "-mode" and I was wondering why named-let wasn't the > symbol at the top of the list as would normally happen. > > I now understand the reason for this. It needs to find the > right manual and normally looks that up based on the major > mode, but gnus-article-mode wasn't of help here, so it was > asking me which major mode to use; but I didn't understand > the prompt and think it could be improved. > > The prompt is in info-lookup-change-mode and the "symbol" is > either "symbol" or "file" depending on how the lookup > command was invoked. I think something like "Major-mode to > lookup %s with: " would be much clearer. How about Major mode to use for looking up help on this %s instead? > It would be even better if the prompt could include the actual > string that would be looked up ("named-let" in my example). That'd need redesigning how these commands prompt for stuff. Currently, they first prompt for a mode, and after that for the symbol/file. Patches welcome. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 18 11:12:15 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jan 2025 16:12:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43472 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZBQl-0007pt-Ch for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:12:15 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:42674) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZBQj-0007pc-L0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:12:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZBQc-0007QF-8K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:12:06 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZBQa-0003pf-VS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:12:06 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tZBQX-0001um-MM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 17:12:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:11:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:jBmxm31/Uj50p1NyJnLwSpGzsUA= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The prompt is in info-lookup-change-mode and the "symbol" is >> either "symbol" or "file" depending on how the lookup >> command was invoked. I think something like "Major-mode to >> lookup %s with [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 T_SPF_PERMERROR SPF: test of record failed (permerror) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hmelman[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different 1.0 FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD 'From' gmail.com does not match 'Received' headers -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The prompt is in info-lookup-change-mode and the "symbol" is >> either "symbol" or "file" depending on how the lookup >> command was invoked. I think something like "Major-mode to >> lookup %s with: " would be much clearer. > > How about > > Major mode to use for looking up help on this %s > > instead? It's better than original. 1. I don't love "help" in here, because it's not using help-mode but is looking up documentation in info manuals. 2. Both your and my suggestions suffer that they don't explain that the major mode is used to qualify the symbol (it's a lisp symbol) and not the "lookup mode" (like help or info or man). How about this? Use which major mode's manuals to lookup this %s Other's I considered if you don't like the above: Which major mode's manuals to use to lookup this %s Major mode's manuals to use to lookup this %s Lookup this %s using the manuals of which major mode Lookup this %s using which major mode's manuals -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 18 13:39:57 2025 Received: (at 75634) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jan 2025 18:39:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43715 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZDjh-0006BK-3x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:39:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55400) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZDje-0006B5-Pf for 75634@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:39:55 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZDjZ-0005nq-Bn; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 13:39:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=QDU5txg5wuzXij0qwx43l83NdmXAMkjWPzv6payQwm4=; b=FGjrgyAShs9/ Rv4xK3WCSRmRC7BhBL2nKQo6nWaybYT2GqAxS/E3xJgB6ghgmqJennHudAq0EI/O4b0J2wa8AlIXD 3dCvZfA2geI4oMugitV5OSqOzctp5Kpz2IewMcEoJHWm+y82U3JNHWPwah7Fs40ZWOAEonssedqVL J2MWhI5imrRR9w76TRMRnm8Tit95Qg6/JE/O/KFrtGwsRyI9DBuBCvE6K9g7Wb0wzf2uQAuUUcmfn 0w8KudkkpzqwpHf29W3LrihDfC1CWlfj0r108k7169qytfhz//zgq49bq0Y7iFtlR/4WUEOB3V3aX ErWXeMTS8qQqba41xML2Sw==; Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 20:39:45 +0200 Message-Id: <867c6s9dam.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:11:52 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75634 Cc: 75634@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:11:52 -0500 > > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> The prompt is in info-lookup-change-mode and the "symbol" is > >> either "symbol" or "file" depending on how the lookup > >> command was invoked. I think something like "Major-mode to > >> lookup %s with: " would be much clearer. > > > > How about > > > > Major mode to use for looking up help on this %s > > > > instead? > > It's better than original. > > 1. I don't love "help" in here, because it's not using > help-mode but is looking up documentation in info manuals. Then I can suggest Major mode whose documentation to look up about this %s > 2. Both your and my suggestions suffer that they don't > explain that the major mode is used to qualify the symbol > (it's a lisp symbol) and not the "lookup mode" (like help or > info or man). > > How about this? > > Use which major mode's manuals to lookup this %s This is confusing English-wise, IMO. Please see if my suggestion above solves your problem #2 as well. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 18 16:09:49 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jan 2025 21:09:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZG4i-0004at-Mg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:49 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:37510) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZG4g-0004ac-92 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZG4Z-0003UT-MX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:39 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZG4Y-0000lG-5p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:39 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tZG4V-0007XC-KN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 22:09:35 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:25 -0500 Message-ID: References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> <867c6s9dam.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Qo/7qcroRg8xyuMGFySyh30Pnjc= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> 1. I don't love "help" in here, because it's not using >> help-mode but is looking up documentation in info manuals. > > Then I can suggest > > Major mode whose documentation to look up about this [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 T_SPF_PERMERROR SPF: test of record failed (permerror) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hmelman[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different 1.0 FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD 'From' gmail.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> 1. I don't love "help" in here, because it's not using >> help-mode but is looking up documentation in info manuals. > > Then I can suggest > > Major mode whose documentation to look up about this %s > >> 2. Both your and my suggestions suffer that they don't >> explain that the major mode is used to qualify the symbol >> (it's a lisp symbol) and not the "lookup mode" (like help or >> info or man). >> >> How about this? >> >> Use which major mode's manuals to lookup this %s > > This is confusing English-wise, IMO. Please see if my suggestion > above solves your problem #2 as well. Can you explain what you find confusing about this? (native US english speaker here). I see that "lookup" should properly be "look up" but I don't think that's confusing. I find the possessive "major mode's manuals" clearer than "Major mode whose documentation". Also the mapping is really major mode to manuals to find the symbol's documentation, as confirmed in info-lookup-symbol's docstring "MODE is the major mode whose Info manuals to search for the documentation of SYMBOL." Also I find "to look up about this %s" a bit awkward. I had copied the original's prompt beginning with "Use" but I see you're not. It's also perhaps too generic a verb. Maybe this works for both of us? Search which major mode's manuals for documentation of %s -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 00:48:15 2025 Received: (at 75634) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2025 05:48:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZOAQ-00008x-Ob for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 00:48:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50314) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZOAO-00008k-Sm for 75634@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 00:48:13 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZOAJ-0002lo-Fl; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 00:48:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=55w9jfYFpfNZ16RCqU92h9jXk05g9P7OtFHPAYv37cY=; b=X2VrHgN9nPpo L13Ywhex3bqLYZAtpOnQ/IHuvVj6AivuQMeXf+loYpMHs7WMbMlHF4EG8kBfJ35I15V/110R1yqrd Z60oH/R4PcugpprBNaDVRkzE/ptczDzUHPvQka/WnsWOQNnddQZ4yAtupXvHuB5Psmm72VkvHR/VG Mc4ZLyxPFdTXT4rVihK8ARuiZPzADV42tabjJ8W8BGr/m7uOPHC7IIjvKw8bxofdgcJhLjGoAjWkO y30I9i/IUf+TW0gafaPp6d++JtV3haQStG6fY75MxTT7sMOHCwvV3aKkIB41IlfvNtVay9UpIHvVm wMf8nn5Scw74cA2mCsvUrw==; Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 07:48:03 +0200 Message-Id: <86tt9v8ics.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:25 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> <867c6s9dam.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75634 Cc: 75634@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:09:25 -0500 > > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> 1. I don't love "help" in here, because it's not using > >> help-mode but is looking up documentation in info manuals. > > > > Then I can suggest > > > > Major mode whose documentation to look up about this %s > > > >> 2. Both your and my suggestions suffer that they don't > >> explain that the major mode is used to qualify the symbol > >> (it's a lisp symbol) and not the "lookup mode" (like help or > >> info or man). > >> > >> How about this? > >> > >> Use which major mode's manuals to lookup this %s > > > > This is confusing English-wise, IMO. Please see if my suggestion > > above solves your problem #2 as well. > > Can you explain what you find confusing about this? (native > US english speaker here). The "Use which mode" part. It's more natural to say "Which mode to use" instead, but in any case, both wordings are phrased as a question, whereas our prompts in Emacs are usually not questions. For example, "C-x C-f" prompts with "Find file:", not with "Find which file" or "Which file to find". > I find the possessive "major mode's manuals" clearer than > "Major mode whose documentation". We could use "manuals", but that would reveal some of the command's implementation. What if tomorrow the command will be extended to search the doc strings as well? "Documentation" sounds less specific and still accurate. > Also the mapping is really major mode to manuals to find the > symbol's documentation, as confirmed in info-lookup-symbol's > docstring "MODE is the major mode whose Info manuals to search for > the documentation of SYMBOL." I know what the command does and how it works, but do we really need to describe all that in the prompt? > I had copied the original's prompt beginning with "Use" but > I see you're not. It's also perhaps too generic a > verb. Maybe this works for both of us? > > Search which major mode's manuals for documentation of %s This is again phrased as a question. Also, "documentation of symbol" sounds vague and somewhat confusing (did you think %s stands for the name of the symbol, perhaps?) But if you prefer this choice of words, then how about Major mode whose documentation to search for this %s From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 09:20:08 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2025 14:20:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45321 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZW9m-0003aZ-1t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:20:07 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:44376) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tZW9i-0003Zp-3f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:20:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZW9b-0007yX-6O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:19:55 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tZW9Z-00030K-R0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:19:54 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tZW9X-0007i3-LL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 15:19:51 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:19:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> <867c6s9dam.fsf@gnu.org> <86tt9v8ics.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cancel-Lock: sha1:XcrP+TeTh5SgVoRjH1X5r5GE3A4= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > The "Use which mode" part. It's more natural to say "Which mode to > use" instead, but in any case, both wordings are phrased as a > question, whereas our prompts in Emacs are usually not questions. [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [2001:470:142:0:0:0:0:17 listed in] [list.dnswl.org] 0.0 T_SPF_PERMERROR SPF: test of record failed (permerror) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hmelman[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different 1.0 FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD 'From' gmail.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > The "Use which mode" part. It's more natural to say "Which mode to > use" instead, but in any case, both wordings are phrased as a > question, whereas our prompts in Emacs are usually not questions. For > example, "C-x C-f" prompts with "Find file:", not with "Find which > file" or "Which file to find". I looked for documentation about conventions for prompts and couldn't find any. Is this written someplace? >> I find the possessive "major mode's manuals" clearer than >> "Major mode whose documentation". > > We could use "manuals", but that would reveal some of the command's > implementation. What if tomorrow the command will be extended to > search the doc strings as well? "Documentation" sounds less specific > and still accurate. That seems unlikely given the command is in the info package and there are other commands to search docstrings. If the command is changed, its prompt could be changed (and in fact this prompt probably wouldn't be needed). >> Also the mapping is really major mode to manuals to find the >> symbol's documentation, as confirmed in info-lookup-symbol's >> docstring "MODE is the major mode whose Info manuals to search for >> the documentation of SYMBOL." > I know what the command does and how it works, but do we really need > to describe all that in the prompt? I know you know what it does. My point was the prompt needs to say what it's asking the user for, and that this mapping is exposed to the user in the docstring. It's an uncommon prompt (first time I saw it in years if not decades of use) so being clear helps, and what it's asking for is indirect, so it's complicated. > This is again phrased as a question. Also, "documentation of symbol" > sounds vague and somewhat confusing (did you think %s stands for the > name of the symbol, perhaps?) No, but I find the inclusion of symbol or file in this prompt kind of vague and I thought my proposal sounded similar in that respect to all the others. > But if you prefer this choice of words, then how about > > Major mode whose documentation to search for this %s I prefer "manuals" to "documentation" but otherwise this is fine. 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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2025 12:12:23 +0200 Message-Id: <86sep7urqw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:19:44 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75634: 29.1; Clearer prompt in info-lookup-change-mode References: <86zfjo9xjl.fsf@gnu.org> <867c6s9dam.fsf@gnu.org> <86tt9v8ics.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75634-done Cc: 75634-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 09:19:44 -0500 > > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > But if you prefer this choice of words, then how about > > > > Major mode whose documentation to search for this %s > > I prefer "manuals" to "documentation" but otherwise this is > fine. Thanks, installed on the emacs-30 branch, and closing the bug. From unknown Sat Aug 16 16:00:18 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:24:21 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator