From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:45:59 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#7561: Soft hyphens should probably normally not be shown Resent-From: Lennart Borgman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2010 16:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 7561 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 7561@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Emacs Bugs Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.129156793815864 (code B ref -1); Sun, 05 Dec 2010 16:53:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2010 16:52:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHow-00047p-HS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:52:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHou-00047d-Gv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:52:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHuT-0007kT-Ts for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:58:06 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:50145) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHuT-0007kN-RD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:58:01 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44755 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PPHuP-0000dS-B2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:58:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHuL-0007hj-Hc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:57:57 -0500 Received: from mail-ey0-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:41404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PPHuL-0007hS-Cp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 11:57:53 -0500 Received: by eydd26 with SMTP id d26so19653389eyd.0 for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 08:57:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=1eOr2ykJstCqVS7SlE2xz9JX22xC5Wn3Vk9x03LkNNM=; b=CBA+qIO4YDyvY9dycqEnarvw/duLUMO9q9I0rJPnwrVgb72EyqdFwhLO1vR5r5y1gq N/uT34jh7JraMA052GBlq9+HaYb5zAUfs2SdBB27UtoxDnr3Jy95G8t4Eb/ncWMsNDUW alvS16pYWLuQouOWFFAYqBIF/NJl3qbbpvMvE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=qKEIC0W1qPG2HxoZn/I+RcVi/zhZTkQYbLCLtUjDdMZl3z9tlxE85xJzuZc7tHEC0m 7iwbkXBpK1NANeEBR76TTBenwv9W6o8HXOpUHldnXfWpBsy/FBcKTEfsbV1t5R9lgPaQ 9l+m1zPntzETDZjk7HzU2oTg1NI4FSv2IBeB8= Received: by 10.213.5.5 with SMTP id 5mr4560169ebt.84.1291568271162; Sun, 05 Dec 2010 08:57:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.29.8 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Dec 2010 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) From: Lennart Borgman Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2010 17:57:30 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) The soft hyphen (173) is currently shown in the buffer. That is unexpected to me though it seems to be a "hard problem": Soft hyphen (SHY) - a hard problem? http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/shy.html I would expect it to be shown only if a line break happens within a word. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:45:59 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#7561: Soft hyphens should probably normally not be shown Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 7561 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lennart Borgman Cc: 7561@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 7561-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B7561.1291661491394 (code B ref 7561); Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 7561) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2010 18:51:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPg9q-00006J-PW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:51:31 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPg9c-00005n-8h for 7561@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:51:29 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AicIAMvA/ExFxLmf/2dsb2JhbACiMIELcr5KhUkEhF+NfQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,306,1288584000"; d="scan'208";a="84681291" Received: from 69-196-185-159.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.185.159]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2010 13:57:07 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8D5CF661BF; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 13:57:07 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:57:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Sun, 5 Dec 2010 17:57:30 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > The soft hyphen (173) is currently shown in the buffer. That is > unexpected to me though it seems to be a "hard problem": > Soft hyphen (SHY) - a hard problem? > http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/shy.html > I would expect it to be shown only if a line break happens within a word. Regardless of the controversies over its actual semantics, Emacs historically has tended to display all chars (control or not), because it is meant to give you access to the markup rather than its rendering. Admittedly, over time, Emacs has added various wysiwyg-ish features, but it is still the case that completely hiding a char, by default, is considered as undesirable since it makes it more difficult to manipulate it (delete/insert/move/...). So if/when we decide to hide such a char, it will be under the control of something like a variable which a major-mode can set to indicate that this buffer is meant as the rendering of a piece of text, rather than meant for editing that text. Stefan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:45:59 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#7561: Soft hyphens should probably normally not be shown Resent-From: Lennart Borgman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:38:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 7561 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 7561@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 7561-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B7561.12916642407386 (code B ref 7561); Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:38:02 +0000 Received: (at 7561) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2010 19:37:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPgsB-0001v4-Nq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:37:19 -0500 Received: from mail-ey0-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPgs9-0001ur-SR for 7561@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 14:37:18 -0500 Received: by eyd10 with SMTP id 10so6408652eyd.3 for <7561@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 11:43:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yuYmKNTzPVQnZmjPSWiZMIFb5pvChsOrjW0PIyMJCkQ=; b=Qug6v1GKtI0oGg8TwltOuK8jvvLc9a1df6Wo35GS7RvPsdVpoJhqraNyBblrGfvnN8 d7spXcvSUWiLu4k9/7WgHtgx7fDz3ZRR0/snMWNn/MTf3VyTUkBuo90RJCe10Zc9mBai PlQQJP0UQGKq70ggUJJNQ0JwOQscADNY+cFUE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NBHc4DEefh+ggOhGkdQ8fbi6wThEbPtfbxGD2tZXLF6+plUtlQ8fyAS8Bhve9kc6aq xU6qniC7lXIMqQuWR/eVd1hO+vwbBO7qNN3ObiKUyu6EFLXk97NpIwRX6Avar57wCoaD jqvvjwAr3zmQXskiR1DlAlEDFJzOJDCAaluEQ= Received: by 10.213.5.5 with SMTP id 5mr6118431ebt.84.1291664589270; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.29.8 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:42:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lennart Borgman Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:42:48 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Stefan Monnier w= rote: >> The soft hyphen (173) is currently shown in the buffer. That is >> unexpected to me though it seems to be a "hard problem": > >> =C2=A0 Soft hyphen (SHY) - a hard problem? >> =C2=A0 http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/shy.html > >> I would expect it to be shown only if a line break happens within a word= . > > Regardless of the controversies over its actual semantics, Emacs > historically has tended to display all chars (control or not), because > it is meant to give you access to the markup rather than its rendering. > > Admittedly, over time, Emacs has added various wysiwyg-ish features, but > it is still the case that completely hiding a char, by default, is > considered as undesirable since it makes it more difficult to manipulate > it (delete/insert/move/...). > > So if/when we decide to hide such a char, it will be under the control > of something like a variable which a major-mode can set to indicate that > this buffer is meant as the rendering of a piece of text, rather than > meant for editing that text. That sounds very reasonable to me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 06 15:03:30 2010 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2010 20:03:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPhHW-0003zL-FB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:03:30 -0500 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-04.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.145]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PPhHV-0003z4-Bg for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:03:29 -0500 Received: from furball (dhcp128036014027.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-04.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id oB6K9MJq024746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:09:22 -0500 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28834160C98; Mon, 6 Dec 2010 15:09:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 7561 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 15:09:21 -0500 Message-ID: <87hbeq4qa6.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.145 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) close 7561 thanks