From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 08 19:39:42 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2025 00:39:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49585 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVgaL-0004Uv-Gd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:41 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:35944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVgaH-0004Ug-Ei for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tVga8-0008Gb-Ei for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:30 -0500 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.161]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tVga5-0001QB-9m for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:27 -0500 Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [10.196.197.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YT5Wl4rf5z9smd; Thu, 9 Jan 2025 01:39:15 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fernseed.me; s=MBO0001; t=1736383155; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=jULIJDlgDIMwL05nfUEdK02VltSZGw29ZIeLUHJxN6E=; b=wZeS+1/SpucUU2/b0qBaRYCyYdROifvQ5mGHK/wc6v+D85WSqKKc9xQ5Ao0rxSRiagbxTH jP7bo6upsIaR2xLyQzNs7EAy6YVQRr7EXQQUyhNxhcfkXNpgpZN9agOpbfVH/b2xOqJ+NB wcYUk+obOsIq6HNTNqrKVhpNW5ae8rTcqzbTwTg9xxdQkrjRG3wZ7JqFjl40jhVfVWIJ+y 0G7/g0zqTXJunVrVZtkkc4bDDJr7rXoK2kK4/Y/U/9nu6dFmupCcfV5+quWJu9C701lrXV s8aTTmgIhAlvu5C4W2N+g5KtJxFhjpB/NgZo7/9g9p+K08ZSViwwhaT4mNyitA== From: Kierin Bell To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:12 -0500 Message-ID: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.161; envelope-from=fernseed@fernseed.me; helo=mout-p-103.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tags: patch This patch fixes a typo in the documentation for Iroquoian input methods for the Oneida endonym, propagated by copy-paste into comments, docstrings, and the NEWS entry. The previous spelling 'On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3=A1= :' was missing the third syllable and also used an idiosyncratic orthography. There are two common orthographic variants that I've seen: 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (common in community language p= rograms) and 'Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (used in Karin Michelson's 2002 'Oneida-English/English-Oneida Dictionary'). I opted for the former. There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of the input method docstrings.=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/patch; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Fix-documentation-of-Iroquoian-input-methods.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From 0fa5f6498e381a60066455595858bbf72c7428c4 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Kierin Bell Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2025 18:29:55 -0500 Subject: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods * lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el: Fix typos in Oneida endonym and in the docstring of `haudenosaunee-postfix' about keys for inputting Onondaga nasals. * etc/NEWS: Fix typo in Oneida endonym. --- etc/NEWS | 12 ++++++------ lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el | 14 +++++++------- 2 files changed, 13 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-) diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index 37e5669b139..ba73843825d 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -260,12 +260,12 @@ The Tifinagh script is used to write the Berber langu= ages. *** New input methods for Northern Iroquoian languages. Input methods are now implemented for Haudenosaunee languages in the Northern Iroquoian language family: 'mohawk-postfix' (Mohawk -[Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'oneida-postfix' (Onei= da [On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3=A1: -/ Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'cayuga-postfix' (Cayuga [Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn= =C3=A9ha:=CB=80]), -'onondaga-postfix' (Onondaga [On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94]), and 'sene= ca-postfix' -(Seneca [On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99]). Additionally, there is= a general-purpose -'haudenosaunee-postfix' input method to facilitate writing in the -orthographies of the five languages simultaneously. +[Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'oneida-postfix' (Onei= da +[On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'cayuga= -postfix' (Cayuga +[Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80]), 'onondaga-postfix' (Onondaga [= On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94]), and +'seneca-postfix' (Seneca [On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99]). Addit= ionally, there is a +general-purpose 'haudenosaunee-postfix' input method to facilitate +writing in the orthographies of the five languages simultaneously. =20 --- ** 'visual-wrap-prefix-mode' now supports variable-pitch fonts. diff --git a/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el b/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el index 51d02e822a9..63c24cf4590 100644 --- a/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el +++ b/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el @@ -28,7 +28,7 @@ ;; languages: =20 ;; - Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha) -;; - Oneida (On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3=A1: / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) +;; - Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9h= a) ;; - Onondaga (On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94) ;; - Cayuga (Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80) ;; - Seneca (On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99) @@ -229,7 +229,7 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 (quail-define-package "oneida-postfix" "Oneida" "ONE<" t - "Oneida (On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3=A1:) input method with postfix modifiers + "Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7) input method with pos= tfix modifiers =20 Modifiers: =20 @@ -896,7 +896,7 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") This input method can be used to enter the following languages: =20 - Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha) -- Oneida (On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3=A1: / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) +- Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) - Cayuga (Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80) - Onondaga (On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94) - Seneca (On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99) @@ -942,10 +942,10 @@ Vowels: | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | | (Onondaga Nation, New York) | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | -| en~ | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel = | -| EN~ | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) = | -| on~ | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel = | -| ON~ | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) = | +| en- | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel = | +| EN- | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) = | +| on- | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel = | +| ON- | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) = | | a\" | =C3=A4 | Low front rounded vowel = | | A\" | =C3=84 | Low front rounded vowel (capital) = | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | --=20 2.46.0 --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 08 20:28:50 2025 Received: (at 75448-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Wed, 08 Jan 2025 17:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 8 Jan 2025 19:28:39 -0600 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2025 19:28:39 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kvaVnKEJgaKeEIHqLNFertgJJk6uxFLbuAuC0W_CjdZJOhDZqIY36RdoWKw Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods To: Kierin Bell , 75448-done@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Version: 31.1 Kierin Bell writes: > This patch fixes a typo in the documentation for Iroquoian input methods > for the Oneida endonym, propagated by copy-paste into comments, > docstrings, and the NEWS entry. The previous spelling 'On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3= =A1:' was > missing the third syllable and also used an idiosyncratic orthography. > There are two common orthographic variants that I've seen: > 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (common in community language= programs) and > 'Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (used in Karin Michelson's 2002 > 'Oneida-English/English-Oneida Dictionary'). I opted for the former. > > There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of the > input method docstrings. Thanks! Pushed to master as commit bdccd4ea9e9. I'm therefore closing this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 01:18:45 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2025 06:18:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50108 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVlsS-0003Pt-OF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2025 01:18:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47862) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVlsQ-0003Pg-Ps for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2025 01:18:44 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tVlsK-0008Vw-Vm; Thu, 09 Jan 2025 01:18:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=9FEpKESnTTZkJJEB2BssWuhLOoqgnmg/3GGlPcO/iNY=; b=m80lrShruwG5WftN3mUb lhzndfqmEOCiDJJ30/SenP7olUF4Km0cSPT4sYyFpVjoj8j0KSaBLdTtPFlmWrGhzMGrl1LUh0hnK ESAjuL3ba81q0jCXySKQweEFEWbVTxUCM91du7tS6qPoA+Bb9v97ghUIW2r49uHDI7q+PMiKz23Ld dm93B2VAyypiOGQXHTgbBrC4RphtLyoV0RbsS506Edp4ex1nHBEck/nz/Qi+WMdn0kC4BCXWbugxX GmwfXiLmYlmDnHm7L8bDoJIqGyVibTmR4QweI+MRL2V5VFUBd6tlQjXrruTVGm+muQ57g77gG8KjA SR8AOIzIg0bVMg==; Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2025 08:18:33 +0200 Message-Id: <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Kierin Bell In-Reply-To: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> (message from Kierin Bell on Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:12 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Kierin Bell > Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:12 -0500 > > This patch fixes a typo in the documentation for Iroquoian input methods > for the Oneida endonym, propagated by copy-paste into comments, > docstrings, and the NEWS entry. The previous spelling 'Onʌyota:ká:' was > missing the third syllable and also used an idiosyncratic orthography. > There are two common orthographic variants that I've seen: > 'Onʌyote’a·ká·' (common in community language programs) and > 'Onyotaˀa·ká·' (used in Karin Michelson's 2002 > 'Oneida-English/English-Oneida Dictionary'). I opted for the former. Since these are very delicate matters, I'd like us to go by the orthography that is really widely accepted. In Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_language), I see "onʌjotaʔaːka" and "onʌjoteʔaːkaː", which is different from what you show. I wonder what should we use, given so many different variants. > There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of the > input method docstrings. I agree that factually the input method behaves as you describe in your patch, but is it not more reasonable to change the code to behave as the documentation says? Why should '-' after 'n' produce ñ? It sounds like using '~' for that is better mnemonically? Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 02:11:27 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2025 07:11:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50179 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVmhS-0006AU-VF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2025 02:11:27 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::533]:48354) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tVmhR-0006AA-0a for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2025 02:11:26 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d7e3f1fdafso1028025a12.0 for <75448@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 23:11:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1736406678; x=1737011478; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=NrF6vdvQ3IyWF78EhgVIkaKI2CF55VlBloozbgjz9gw=; b=W2pfTwkmOmjg8BZG9Hll5stHQlNFZY+/40np4Jc6PbFGTkh4BSd1E6IUQ1N/U7zRH8 D/G1HvAaDZTlkQGWNAJ9e592UO3brQe5F6Y0ESObwjfWGqVgDfd0RBH1NmGgJ9LuBRc5 d9qaVUGTX4xOxtFRtWfOfqXZXYiQUDDKm5zhm8N+MUd2Roa6pkQIXnw8SGS1+zeTXmp2 9ZK0U9wSsc/Kw02TwwRG5ZDWZQdnWMmcBTdtneatExQ7BPy++0NrRgsuD6FxmonFFDB+ Y0UmyoP4ZEg6ZLgogE9ldKyYEdwP7r2x2Op5QGwPmBtjFqhO4uStZ2q82R2YecotWSWR 3Aqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1736406678; x=1737011478; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NrF6vdvQ3IyWF78EhgVIkaKI2CF55VlBloozbgjz9gw=; b=ApWkHXeM+C09xqFuBZK8OAmCpH++jseGmcpKYa9MiWlBpTM0tM7tMYA6TSijMzOolQ B9trfwhwEgeHZzDJKfSQCXZLkNEygOckS2F5+zbkJWE/pZnc/wfX/xOt4B6X7GglMEhN 2BqOxd00opGXkazFMBhXb0Rkfexp6UqV9gJ54ltKsWzhLvvcF+m+6S2Z945XhTc9AhMZ JLHfwr//PhCt+LSUF0nWsqryKuCHUNtTnlCfi4oAN7XMf4CE80cZzNf6H3DLIiyyYUzg jfrCi3Lc8U6TdXkdkn4nTaPpi6LphKIzwDOUaDFl4fDj6vGrgveNe0uDegUa6cQpFWFu q6+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzjJQDjktFGhJKHRk+2PF6dGoYTdDt9Xx/1OeXNg2JNQRnQErmq incbxkJo20pQcQUkNfHmrxXbh1FIsOxQtJD2JJhgTL0p9gQvNn4EU+XDldaDV1eiFEbHMIQ6vN2 A7UBK+P0hJiQW8E92eh6qQtXG88uukg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctmFI9sba6nX+KW/BuZuUFXBrj+xI2OneODBUy42pXWBYADYh4/AUjXpQNYCs9 iDIPEJKlEJ1mh6jsWoNRn5TO9DCKHbbCTG05veL7E X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGxQ+FKpC+uxqTLPTsRz9TCBcq2as7uUQoscv5GY8UDVaZn/xLLeKI/ts2BR1Wvj0PhJL8pz39Eh+34i/9/K4Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:518f:b0:5d2:723c:a577 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d972e052f9mr4935515a12.14.1736406678055; Wed, 08 Jan 2025 23:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 9 Jan 2025 01:11:17 -0600 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2025 01:11:17 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kvbGkh8D8wBjM9Dwpr1dKx3EJQ7jA3MGkOWaNB_qN5ngekppZc-qvY5-Mwk Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods To: Eli Zaretskii , Kierin Bell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) reopen 75448 thanks Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Kierin Bell >> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2025 19:39:12 -0500 >> >> This patch fixes a typo in the documentation for Iroquoian input methods >> for the Oneida endonym, propagated by copy-paste into comments, >> docstrings, and the NEWS entry. The previous spelling 'On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3= =A1:' was >> missing the third syllable and also used an idiosyncratic orthography. >> There are two common orthographic variants that I've seen: >> 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (common in community languag= e programs) and >> 'Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (used in Karin Michelson's 2002 >> 'Oneida-English/English-Oneida Dictionary'). I opted for the former. > > Since these are very delicate matters, I'd like us to go by the > orthography that is really widely accepted. In Wikipedia > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_language), I see "on=CA=8Cjota=CA= =94a=CB=90ka" > and "on=CA=8Cjote=CA=94a=CB=90ka=CB=90", which is different from what you= show. I wonder > what should we use, given so many different variants. > >> There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of the >> input method docstrings. > > I agree that factually the input method behaves as you describe in > your patch, but is it not more reasonable to change the code to behave > as the documentation says? Why should '-' after 'n' produce =C3=B1? It > sounds like using '~' for that is better mnemonically? Thanks for paying attention to details, Eli. The patch is already installed, but I'm reopening the bug until we have agreed how to proceed here. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:49:58 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug No longer marked as fixed in versions 31.1 and reopened. Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2025 07:12:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug No longer marked as fixed in versions 31.1 and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 13:11:38 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2025 18:11:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58708 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWJTt-00085z-9D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:11:38 -0500 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050:0:465::103]:54352) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWJTq-00085X-JF for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:11:35 -0500 Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:b231:465::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YV8qG6ZTvz9sn8; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 19:11:22 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fernseed.me; s=MBO0001; t=1736532683; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CtSo/o0byz/HslX8Ta5Rl9UurHTmXqyOfC3bM69EZJk=; b=lLtxK/5AEImwR20WgSz33s1RQnjwBbQYIkF2NbhUSs0i2b8xBvtf5/JUkNh0/X4zdR9wNH Ac7HEEkpg2Yje07ayoccqxhvR+6P3QwWwC9iUyNbgjV7N//hLK348/IGlr2Gl/LQHzl57i sVHAtXzgcYjdVptDNksyskQt2E7++2ScyVg5mzzNpJYr1lBjdhsXphvnjVNtNnpxDXSeBq p0pf6ACTml/l71LACRwaFngZQwrRB2PoCHRdNdATK+D0XOffK+oMbrj5JhvOldGIVMG7Mx auK1JBoaNK6EzwU4+wlqWhmxXc1LP/9DW70Vtr8Fqy7rNL44iRACHtKnpm1Gtw== From: Kierin Bell To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods In-Reply-To: <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 09 Jan 2025 08:18:33 +0200") References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:11:17 -0500 Message-ID: <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YV8qG6ZTvz9sn8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Kierin Bell Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2025 >> 19:39:12 -0500 >>=20 >> This patch fixes a typo in the documentation for Iroquoian input methods >> for the Oneida endonym, propagated by copy-paste into comments, >> docstrings, and the NEWS entry. The previous spelling 'On=CA=8Cyota:k=C3= =A1:' was >> missing the third syllable and also used an idiosyncratic orthography. >> There are two common orthographic variants that I've seen: >> 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (common in community languag= e programs) and >> 'Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' (used in Karin Michelson's 2002 >> 'Oneida-English/English-Oneida Dictionary'). I opted for the former. > > Since these are very delicate matters, I'd like us to go by the > orthography that is really widely accepted. In Wikipedia > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_language), I see "on=CA=8Cjota=CA= =94a=CB=90ka" > and "on=CA=8Cjote=CA=94a=CB=90ka=CB=90", which is different from what you= show. I wonder > what should we use, given so many different variants. > Thank you Eli for your careful attention to detail! I'm glad that Stefan applied the patch as a stop-gap, but I agree that we should go by widely accepted orthographies. The issue with Oneida in particular is that there is a relatively high amount of orthographic variation, and there is definitely no single accepted orthographic variant for this term. The orthography you cite from Wikipedia is actually a phonetic transcription that would not be used in prose, although an orthographic transcription is given also: 'On=CA=8Cyota=CA=94a=EA=9E=89ka'. This appears= highly idiosyncratic, with no citation given, and is halfway between the more common orthographies 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' and 'Onyot= a=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7' cited above. Because there is so much variation, I reached out to a number of teachers and friends involved in Oneida language revitalization. A language teacher from Oneida Nation, New York, United States (one of the three main Oneida communities), who prefers to remain anonymous, has responded, and I quote from her response here (with permission): "I understand your concerns about choosing the Ukwehuwehne=CC=81ha name for Oneida. It's essential to do what one can to represent our culture and language, and I appreciate the feedback. However, I believe this name holds significant meaning and reflects our heritage, where people like to disagree on specific issues. Believe me, it=CA=BCs a battle; no one is perfect, which is all part of being an u:kw=C3=A9=CC=B2. It's fascinating how different dialects can influence the spelling and pronunciation of words, especially in languages like Oneida. The variations are intriguing, such as Karin Michelson's use of "Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7" compared to the "On=CA=8Cyote=CB=80a=C2= =B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7" that you've encountered. Here in New York, we aim for consistency in spellings, often writing it as "Onyota=CA=BCa:k=C3=A1:" while being mindful of the specific geographical regions and their diacritical marks.=20 It makes sense that there could be regional differences, like those between Wisconsin and London. Language is dynamic, and these variations enrich it. It would be beneficial to have more discussions about these differences to enhance our understanding of the dialects and diacritics within the Oneida language. Indeed, the variations in dialects depend on speaker differences and their phonological backgrounds. I understand your point about the differences in formatting between Emacs maintainers and Wikipedia. Variations in notation can be confusing, especially when it comes to unconventional spellings. I personally prefer consistency and tend to lean towards one style over another. It's interesting to see how these choices can impact clarity and readability. A central aspect of my experience is the online certificate program I took through the University of British Columbia last year. It has been helpful in understanding Indigenous languages. One important topic addressed in the program is avoiding "language mixing" while remaining within a specific community. It is also crucial to be mindful of the geographical regions where the language is being taught." One insight that she provides is that she uses 'Onyota=CA=BCa:k=C3=A1:', an orthographic variant of 'Onyota=CB=80a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7'. The latter is c= ommon in dictionaries and academic writing, but it would be pronounced exactly the same. She relates another very important point about avoiding language mixing (preserving dialect and orthographical differences) and aiming for consistency in orthography within each community. The orthography used in my patch, 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2= =B7', appears to be representative of different dialect variant, with a different orthography to represent vowel lengthening. But it appears to be the most common orthography used by language programs from communities in Wisconsin, NY and Ontario, Canada (going by community resources from classes that I myself have taken). So, what I would like to suggest, if we can practically accommodate it, would be to list both of these two forms whenever one would be used, e.g.: 'On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7/Onyota=E2=80=99a:k=C3=A1:'. The most important place where the endonym occurs from a user-standpoint is in the initial line of the docstring for the `oneida-postfix' input method, which is also displayed as completion metadata for `set-input-method'. I don't think that this would make that line too long in this case, but that is what had prevented me from suggesting this type of approach earlier. Another issue is that there are orthographic variants in relatively common use for the Mohawk and Onondaga endonyms. These are purely orthographic and do not represent actual dialect differences as in the Oneida case, but if it can be done for Oneida, a similar combined endonym listing in docstrings for these input methods would make sense for consistency, as well. >> There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of >> the input method docstrings. > > I agree that factually the input method behaves as you describe in > your patch, but is it not more reasonable to change the code to behave > as the documentation says? Why should '-' after 'n' produce =C3=B1? It > sounds like using '~' for that is better mnemonically? > The only issue that I take with using '~' over '-' is that it is quite unergonomic to enter this repeatedly (at least on a QWERTY keyboard). However, if the convention used by other input methods is to prioritize mnemonics in cases like this, then I would be in favor of changing this in the next version of the patch. > Thanks. Thanks! Kierin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 13:31:45 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2025 18:31:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58754 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWJnM-0000kJ-Tz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:31:45 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]:46262) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWJnL-0000k0-5B for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:31:43 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d96944401dso3833424a12.0 for <75448@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 10:31:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1736533897; x=1737138697; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/3SPrhNgyuSkYM3YX9ml/vZErEPMXsMH2mn5Q9W4bQs=; b=NYa2Jto+TGaz78zBf698vZICes92Cj3+Ej6AExNIhDc/u9QmtTcTmvNjPoc+VrfRYj KQzx6STso497dv5KWH+lupKQCvfxVD8uO8qocUx881AEgciy2GRvlljikJUpFSTGrNJJ XIURGpjq3MswGECY87vEB3JueQeNUc2UCs691e/bkwAcoQ24w9N/Ak3yhVX6pUVKEQQT v557+GmoQ2bRelBBHg+H2sNP5uc8+yQQpPmwSCZ+uTd2GPDn+rPdzde6x+gufN0MGUo8 fHpBtqQaF4UOE1MRA5HdQ3WyudzbQNPPjjjNkXbf+HRgNxugabop+dkeclRhHNv82T2z khsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1736533897; x=1737138697; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/3SPrhNgyuSkYM3YX9ml/vZErEPMXsMH2mn5Q9W4bQs=; b=GhcbxDcIYXhYKCyrkMUfQggIUlB5+kJ05rQggNqSco4r8uljutfYYS15kW2th+O+9J 4fovLXurcOUxQ45U9wYu1JNosZZL7mK5hTSqC+/BECLDXnxgPK7db6rPQARpeAkiuBpF ZHIr9KG5fQFjPlLNiskxH/dclwy1kZZOIoglfmxKL2ElA+6wf5cqZt8epyKfMtI+sqLk Qf6yb30WUKmDCkH3qzXaXaN9S1DcukGvFtx3/Kd987HBYSCWMAYJuBQCpDyVCQlP44yn O+JKDBgvteBrT645kEcIzo/72VPQ8mbwfRYcmphrHKOVGLBJPC4ffpJEP+44eC8SXlj7 C4lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz1i4bjwDFBqIdtwO00+GoI0bDOh8U9312afqEl2izkveioI052 yie+7CsYJJ5yXNe1K/kF4C6Yv9GjEfqlszNbyPjUYRSvg7G9Q4XtOY0C/ymBiHGWJVbCM5Jw4tY xIYW3qKsqnlDoGPzUmxyX02um3D94dQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv9uQl57iXuUGRJPMyr+Q9Pm+C2aLlMXRUG2UJGBOLKQvOBk05km/drouMwh0G 7yjOMV3DbvkcOLl3cL/Id0ySPwIhTwcohj0n8Dh/j X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHe7wU4NiT0qBwat0MKeN9bMcEw9CTL6ZKroQOSNHjgDrYGW065MRo76DpvMdjLus3fQXSrbATx4lj4nXD+fF0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2690:b0:5d2:7199:ae5 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d972dfbe9amr10580535a12.5.1736533896781; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 10:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:31:36 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:31:36 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AbW1kvYAD7OZKW_ag81caxFB7PSep9d1ZXg1BRo-JYmIbDaOxm6GQbC89r2LX5A Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods To: Kierin Bell , Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Kierin Bell writes: > The only issue that I take with using '~' over '-' is that it is quite > unergonomic to enter this repeatedly (at least on a QWERTY keyboard). > However, if the convention used by other input methods is to prioritize > mnemonics in cases like this, then I would be in favor of changing this > in the next version of the patch. Would it be feasible to support both versions, with "-" being documented as the more ergonomic shorthand? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 21:40:44 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2025 02:40:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40757 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWRQZ-0006rD-Jq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 21:40:43 -0500 Received: from mout-p-202.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.172]:41880) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWRQW-0006qy-Ib for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2025 21:40:41 -0500 Received: from smtp202.mailbox.org (smtp202.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:b231:465::202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-202.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YVN6m1Nnwz9sq6; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 03:40:32 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fernseed.me; s=MBO0001; t=1736563232; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=qcEagKZ2L+GT5XhasYlYwniQU1gvVKJZBnJwMOs3X8c=; b=yDiV7sIr7AcD5e152vIuT0htNo2M2VITBVSBElCBge87/Rlp5dw3UEChCNa47tMiCwgKCU 9Ibjm0p3Pq+9KIxE0FCf+7wgJS9hyTPgNaxTGJ4ZFsmwtwZpFMGUyu5V2VGqeDhRYfev0z wJ5gyHY1ypyd5UwmEk8CTSUTscN9OeT3NChikrN0tDOqQ4bF6pIygRFt4q3D3vImqMxxO0 w6OPS8h9Qr726Lt3hHzo5zNGDpUJpCBElN58VHy5VSsN5K7+rRHt2K77Y1FtKWCBwQeIz2 h/nCAabokf2BrRqM4dejTbdz8nkQdo8wE7aqHNQdWg4v+W4oLA0uNexRhL3ZVA== From: Kierin Bell To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:31:36 +0000") References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 21:40:27 -0500 Message-ID: <87a5by5azo.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YVN6m1Nnwz9sq6 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Kierin Bell writes: > >> The only issue that I take with using '~' over '-' is that it is quite >> unergonomic to enter this repeatedly (at least on a QWERTY keyboard). >> However, if the convention used by other input methods is to prioritize >> mnemonics in cases like this, then I would be in favor of changing this >> in the next version of the patch. > > Would it be feasible to support both versions, with "-" being documented > as the more ergonomic shorthand? Yes, this is a great suggestion, and it's easy to do. I've already starting working this into v2 of the patch. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 11 04:50:14 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2025 09:50:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWY8E-0001so-0o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 04:50:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56746) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWY8B-0001qE-Nx for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 04:50:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tWY85-0007Yz-OL; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 04:50:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=nJgRKJWd4BP/z3b+pk/2O9IErJcbWo3DKdvOXTIlB4A=; b=py2bgZmUsjqiOB63D6As r2Mr1TTmJMJFkHQUq35HvOM1zyvu7SUoh3ScLPBWbycHzR8DmB27WmyNljt6mrSUggwRf6gLXyoOq BEX5Bd7j/tLy3WuFkGOG7s6Pl0HW8bn8xrkqDm7iRKZzu53/BOSDSVSpzwNONqLDFEBahdezR2zBG UbGTek+oLBPO+u9KFp4nYsmJwwWem0w0NBkoxKCywznbzqW26MWQuj6ffAwaiYroNGF0SX4yffdU/ skp49XU2So8MKKehHmYZHpDdXal7fVOTPTV37+29xs0BK8CUt4niz9icWXf7iE1biEk9dCmWRsJb8 dUC+jsywtp3bjA==; Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 11:50:03 +0200 Message-Id: <86ldvhznlg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Kierin Bell In-Reply-To: <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> (message from Kierin Bell on Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:11:17 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Kierin Bell > Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 13:11:17 -0500 > > One insight that she provides is that she uses 'Onyotaʼa:ká:', an > orthographic variant of 'Onyotaˀa·ká·'. The latter is common in > dictionaries and academic writing, but it would be pronounced exactly > the same. > > She relates another very important point about avoiding language mixing > (preserving dialect and orthographical differences) and aiming for > consistency in orthography within each community. > > The orthography used in my patch, 'Onʌyote’a·ká·', appears to be > representative of different dialect variant, with a different > orthography to represent vowel lengthening. But it appears to be the > most common orthography used by language programs from communities in > Wisconsin, NY and Ontario, Canada (going by community resources from > classes that I myself have taken). > > So, what I would like to suggest, if we can practically accommodate it, > would be to list both of these two forms whenever one would be used, > e.g.: 'Onʌyote’a·ká·/Onyota’a:ká:'. > > The most important place where the endonym occurs from a user-standpoint > is in the initial line of the docstring for the `oneida-postfix' input > method, which is also displayed as completion metadata for > `set-input-method'. I don't think that this would make that line too > long in this case, but that is what had prevented me from suggesting > this type of approach earlier. I'm okay with this, so please show a patch to make these changes. > Another issue is that there are orthographic variants in relatively > common use for the Mohawk and Onondaga endonyms. These are purely > orthographic and do not represent actual dialect differences as in the > Oneida case, but if it can be done for Oneida, a similar combined > endonym listing in docstrings for these input methods would make sense > for consistency, as well. Sure, let's do that as well. > >> There is also a small fix for an incorrect input key given in one of > >> the input method docstrings. > > > > I agree that factually the input method behaves as you describe in > > your patch, but is it not more reasonable to change the code to behave > > as the documentation says? Why should '-' after 'n' produce ñ? It > > sounds like using '~' for that is better mnemonically? > > > > The only issue that I take with using '~' over '-' is that it is quite > unergonomic to enter this repeatedly (at least on a QWERTY keyboard). > However, if the convention used by other input methods is to prioritize > mnemonics in cases like this, then I would be in favor of changing this > in the next version of the patch. I agree with Stefan that having both variants is the best. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 11 18:26:18 2025 Received: (at 75448) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2025 23:26:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45359 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWkrx-0002pK-D4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:26:18 -0500 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050:0:465::103]:41476) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tWkru-0002p2-Pl for 75448@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:26:15 -0500 Received: from smtp102.mailbox.org (smtp102.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:b231:465::102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YVvly4lXvz9sPv; Sun, 12 Jan 2025 00:26:06 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fernseed.me; s=MBO0001; t=1736637966; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=JT7RRd8nH3sb93QPAz9LNjfo+vYgYcvzMOaoo3UTLvo=; b=rMF2h84CsFn2jw6F9Nui0H4CQHDLtnDOd3M+4e/6tICEnstn0HOlHlXWV88ZhDxFHFbgYQ pqRkwgcroy4Y5Nmz9wHEEHNRp9B87v1q1cJ2upG+qJLXo9AHaC7KwpmkSnZyZ5E4cEXJL9 3/5zxzN+DllSDXC2M7CG6nadc5fcgdpqbdOGD3pSsyKpUnfNWrDpD8dwY3RSKDzNOcqeCH yenfej0CDvgJGNu4GdXvSH9Z4ZOL6rtpfxC+wze4nbqe5CCOzFkuEYyRp5Cguv8lAtmHOW TkE36yqI+sR9obTQuBkhKnHEm98ZiBsRbv9HAw25labmZpvyfjXsRInSr8upbw== From: Kierin Bell To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods In-Reply-To: <86ldvhznlg.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 11 Jan 2025 11:50:03 +0200") References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ldvhznlg.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:26:04 -0500 Message-ID: <87y0zh3pbn.fsf@fernseed.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YVvly4lXvz9sPv X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448 Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eli Zaretskii writes: > I'm okay with this, so please show a patch to make these changes. Attached is v2 of the patch. I did not add the Onondaga endonym variant, because I could not find enough evidence for commonplace usage of it. I also updated the 'oneida-postfix' input method so that the easiest of the two glottal stop characters to input (via two consecutive semicolons) is the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, which is used in both of the endonym variants given. This also aligns nicely with the 'haudenosaunee-postfix' input method, which assigns the same keys to that glottal stop character. Thanks. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=0001-Improve-usability-and-documentation-of-Iroquoian-inp.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From ed49f5e950202d7d05821d6e2f6b854294ba1abd Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Kierin Bell Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 17:25:51 -0500 Subject: [PATCH] Improve usability and documentation of Iroquoian input methods * lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el: Add variants for Mohawk and Oneida endonyms in comments and docstrings. Update the 'oneida-postfix' input method to make the most commonly used glottal stop character easiest to input. Update the 'onondaga-postfix' input method with mnemonic keys for nasals in the Onondaga Nation, New York orthography. (Bug#75448) * etc/NEWS: Add variants for Mohawk and Oneida endonyms to NEWS entry. --- etc/NEWS | 13 +++++---- lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el | 54 +++++++++++++++++++++--------------- 2 files changed, 39 insertions(+), 28 deletions(-) diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index d017c872fa3..0879bde5628 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -277,12 +277,13 @@ The Tifinagh script is used to write the Berber langu= ages. *** New input methods for Northern Iroquoian languages. Input methods are now implemented for Haudenosaunee languages in the Northern Iroquoian language family: 'mohawk-postfix' (Mohawk -[Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'oneida-postfix' (Onei= da -[On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'cayuga= -postfix' (Cayuga -[Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80]), 'onondaga-postfix' (Onondaga [= On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94]), and -'seneca-postfix' (Seneca [On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99]). Addit= ionally, there is a -general-purpose 'haudenosaunee-postfix' input method to facilitate -writing in the orthographies of the five languages simultaneously. +[Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Kanyen=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9h= a]), 'oneida-postfix' (Oneida +[On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Onyota=E2=80=99a:k=C3=A1: / U= kwehuwehn=C3=A9ha]), 'cayuga-postfix' +(Cayuga [Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80]), 'onondaga-postfix' (On= ondaga +[On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94]), and 'seneca-postfix' (Seneca [On=C3=B6= dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99]). +Additionally, there is a general-purpose 'haudenosaunee-postfix' input +method to facilitate writing in the orthographies of the five languages +simultaneously. =20 --- ** 'visual-wrap-prefix-mode' now supports variable-pitch fonts. diff --git a/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el b/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el index 63c24cf4590..6671a1d20f1 100644 --- a/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el +++ b/lisp/leim/quail/iroquoian.el @@ -27,8 +27,8 @@ ;; Input methods are implemented for all Five Nations Iroquois ;; languages: =20 -;; - Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha) -;; - Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9h= a) +;; - Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Kanyen=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkweho= nwehn=C3=A9ha) +;; - Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Onyota=E2=80=99a:= k=C3=A1: / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) ;; - Onondaga (On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94) ;; - Cayuga (Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80) ;; - Seneca (On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99) @@ -123,7 +123,7 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 (quail-define-package "mohawk-postfix" "Mohawk" "MOH<" t - "Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha) input method with postfix modifiers + "Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha/Kanyen=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha) input method = with postfix modifiers =20 Stress diacritics: =20 @@ -216,8 +216,8 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 (defconst iroquoian-oneida-consonant-alist - '((";;" ?\N{MODIFIER LETTER GLOTTAL STOP}) - (";'" ?\N{RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK})) + '((";;" ?\N{RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK}) + (";'" ?\N{MODIFIER LETTER GLOTTAL STOP})) "Alist of rules for consonant letters in Oneida input methods. Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 @@ -229,7 +229,7 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 (quail-define-package "oneida-postfix" "Oneida" "ONE<" t - "Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7) input method with pos= tfix modifiers + "Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7/Onyota=E2=80=99a:k=C3= =A1:) input method with postfix modifiers =20 Modifiers: =20 @@ -258,8 +258,8 @@ Consonants: =20 | Key | Translation | Description | |-----+-------------+--------------------------| -| ;; | =CB=80 | Glottal stop | -| ;\\=3D' | \\=3D=E2=80=99 | Glottal stop (alternate) | +| ;; | \\=3D=E2=80=99 | Glottal stop | +| ;\\=3D' | =CB=80 | Glottal stop (alternate) | =20 h, k, l, n, s, t, w, and y are bound to a single key. =20 @@ -393,9 +393,11 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 (defconst iroquoian-onondaga-nasal-alist - '(("n-" ?=C3=B1) + '(("n~" ?=C3=B1) + ("n-" ["=C3=B1"]) ("n--" ["n-"]) - ("N-" ?=C3=91) + ("N~" ?=C3=91) + ("N-" ["=C3=91"]) ("N--" ["N-"])) "Alist of rules for nasal modifier letters in Onondaga input methods. Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") @@ -433,10 +435,14 @@ Vowels: |-----------------------------------------------------------| | Onondaga Nation, New York orthography | |-----------------------------------------------------------| -| en- | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel | -| EN- | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) | -| on- | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel | -| ON- | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) | +| en~ | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel | +| en- | e=C3=B1 | (same as above) | +| EN~ | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) | +| EN- | E=C3=91 | (same as above) | +| on~ | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel | +| on- | o=C3=B1 | (same as above) | +| ON~ | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) | +| ON- | O=C3=91 | (same as above) | | a\" | =C3=A4 | Low front rounded vowel | | A\" | =C3=84 | Low front rounded vowel (capital) | |-----------------------------------------------------------| @@ -895,8 +901,8 @@ Entries are as with rules in `quail-define-rules'.") =20 This input method can be used to enter the following languages: =20 -- Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwehn=C3=A9ha) -- Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) +- Mohawk (Kanien=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Kanyen=E2=80=99k=C3=A9ha / Onkwehonwe= hn=C3=A9ha) +- Oneida (On=CA=8Cyote=E2=80=99a=C2=B7k=C3=A1=C2=B7 / Onyota=E2=80=99a:k= =C3=A1: / Ukwehuwehn=C3=A9ha) - Cayuga (Gayogo=CC=B1ho:n=C7=ABhn=C3=A9ha:=CB=80) - Onondaga (On=C5=B3da=CA=94geg=C3=A1=CA=94) - Seneca (On=C3=B6dow=C3=A1=E2=80=99ga:=E2=80=99) @@ -942,10 +948,14 @@ Vowels: | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | | (Onondaga Nation, New York) | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | -| en- | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel = | -| EN- | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) = | -| on- | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel = | -| ON- | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) = | +| en~ | e=C3=B1 | Mid front nasal vowel = | +| en- | e=C3=B1 | (same as above) = | +| EN~ | E=C3=91 | Mid front nasal vowel (capital) = | +| EN- | E=C3=91 | (same as above) = | +| on~ | o=C3=B1 | Back high nasal vowel = | +| on- | o=C3=B1 | (same as above) = | +| ON~ | O=C3=91 | Back high nasal vowel (capital) = | +| ON- | O=C3=91 | (same as above) = | | a\" | =C3=A4 | Low front rounded vowel = | | A\" | =C3=84 | Low front rounded vowel (capital) = | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | @@ -991,8 +1001,8 @@ Consonants: |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Oneida | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | -| ;\\=3D' | =CB=80 | Glottal stop = | -| ;; | \\=3D=E2=80=99 | Glottal stop (alternate) = | +| ;; | \\=3D=E2=80=99 | Glottal stop = | +| ;\\=3D' | =CB=80 | Glottal stop (alternate) = | | Single-key consonants: h k l n s t w y | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Onondaga | --=20 2.47.1 --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 16 11:35:44 2025 Received: (at 75448-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Jan 2025 16:35:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tYSqN-00068b-LK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jan 2025 11:35:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40184) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tYSqK-00068J-MC for 75448-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jan 2025 11:35:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tYSqE-0002BS-0B; Thu, 16 Jan 2025 11:35:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=8EvglX0WQBqRENWenUTRFRz0UtlITFomNZcE7qCP+sY=; b=h2nYgZK/HRmp 26HFzbxsYtSSukXxK71nHIazcD6zpitHisNb5fviaRb8h4n8zL19uO4bgC6CmO6CxwAi8TW5nRO9k xnVplx/6rDIaW4p5/5Du8se0ms2l4oHEDBpM+mv0zNyr8xpat040VOGOtLmlvgL9pDSssZjnLgVB+ wP7miwTRrIKL8NRHXlrD8tCdwm+w+P6I6kQqxdcK9SpLMFZF0q09HrajDL4jZozJa0mq0CwtBoLLP DvKZv7NEYQS/JjgS5bbAD57R98hn863NAwWAlTRwbAg1qVBbumDtj1oD0E6Bk9FC6W0zoKr8ajXgI WR0oA4EF9p0fD0W157hynw==; Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 18:35:20 +0200 Message-Id: <865xmehg3b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Kierin Bell In-Reply-To: <87y0zh3pbn.fsf@fernseed.me> (message from Kierin Bell on Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:26:04 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#75448: [PATCH] Fix documentation of Iroquoian input methods References: <87cygwom6n.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ikqo33ye.fsf@gnu.org> <87plku5yka.fsf@fernseed.me> <86ldvhznlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87y0zh3pbn.fsf@fernseed.me> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75448-done Cc: 75448-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Kierin Bell > Cc: 75448@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:26:04 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I'm okay with this, so please show a patch to make these changes. > > Attached is v2 of the patch. > > I did not add the Onondaga endonym variant, because I could not find > enough evidence for commonplace usage of it. > > I also updated the 'oneida-postfix' input method so that the easiest of > the two glottal stop characters to input (via two consecutive > semicolons) is the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK, which is used in both of > the endonym variants given. This also aligns nicely with the > 'haudenosaunee-postfix' input method, which assigns the same keys to > that glottal stop character. Thanks, installed, and closing the bug. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:49:58 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:24:15 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator