From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 02 12:22:57 2025 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Jan 2025 17:22:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tTOuO-0004SL-Gk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 12:22:56 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:54726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tTOuM-0004S7-CQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 12:22:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tTOuG-0003sJ-RL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 12:22:49 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tTOuE-00067p-Ur for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 12:22:48 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d7e3f1fdafso23674523a12.0 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 09:22:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1735838565; x=1736443365; darn=gnu.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:from:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VC8im9qxHgkrKHrig3OEEXgtwCxAbOs/dCH8shBMqgM=; b=KqTngBppoUManKve9dVutmMRjD2ne+ibKeJjX0o9ZKpMnwic4Hr1rzxdGu6IXVqoly bAIB0ZpU+FJicYF01hdEBH0IdjlAyCmCs3j20qs0mUUfxGWTjbyIZ+hYBTHK2ayK0/LW JqjS25p3UqU9x3wYbt+V++WHSs7mQzYEu7pmkJAO6WWKWusNVIenyM14RMo6hbXtm+Oe aQsU0iw1ZUAqLbvHpfAkCS5nS+cAlvTDHLa1ofIn9AICjX2llHMYx/LjL02l8PUE/K57 db4+Qw4rzYO8G/ZdTavvryGm2J4Di89CiKtU6LTcNhjNL72YEUYqIrUYpq7JxyWPYoBn 7fZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1735838565; x=1736443365; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VC8im9qxHgkrKHrig3OEEXgtwCxAbOs/dCH8shBMqgM=; b=qndjKvLBYiGEmZBO86o8eDCyMvHiq8uF4iFlxnaLh6f7sCCU3+0CN3gaeKTh/T/8TO SQ+7/x4beENOejp6Pnx7tpr7eOs0E64JUr4baUpvz3ovTwOJlnLoTloBquaOaSTYOsOr /+zJhqZUrUa9vgyhKxHWS2atY8HCMQ2xgQYceGabVt7On5ZYwhNfGzz8iOPJtuodlls3 flT5a3Kf6neOn729tDEKACxGxtpkbFgI4F2eoqh85TVpHkm4lBaxP28LS9l+a3qE19Qr IbZpzj4PLhhMa3l71vAgIo9IooYuMAn9AU8s9yu/IDDCw97y0Rk43kXA0EMElQDxdrJb UR4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwkMP6JD5E5fQXHOOVT/oECyVVFFHKG4O190mWSil0hcqkGRpSS VQzZZ2wxRbbel17yAdFtCbOuJ8lSldqrMU6Z14+wj/moh7JnO+k/iICEU14fEV62FnqaVE7Hbzy 6RuZFOeFDnJiYzMafG9hc5xsx7UiHufXlcpO/xw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv9Qiu8jIr0PCV0EvV7tefNPSXAy9S/NXX3eQXf6gowGq/+KGkQV6aY2vElWiM 6LnKBgE1nubp+ZToNns35esUAOYE5Bj8PvL16Qqs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHGrM1jjgXqqzgcAfhydXsXu3CG0gsuVbyeGY8XTArOsYcHKusIf3PMTdljZhqAXH3bzKhYov8fGA5ZQRf+j68= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:4492:b0:5cf:d19c:e21c with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d81ddec945mr46470107a12.20.1735838565042; Thu, 02 Jan 2025 09:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 2 Jan 2025 11:22:44 -0600 From: Stefan Kangas References: X-Debbugs-CC: rms@gnu.org, acm@muc.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 11:22:44 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52d; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x52d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Severity: wishlist I'm forwarding this to the bug tracker so that we don't lose track of it. Alan, any comments here? -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- From: Richard Stallman To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 22:39:23 -0400 [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The doc string of remove-pos-from-symbol says to compare it with bare-symbol. The doc strings are too sketchy to make clear what the difference is. Someone who knows should make that clear. Is the difference what they do to an argument that is not a symbol? If so, it would be good to state that explicitly in the doc string of bare-symbol. "If need be" is not explicit, not concrete. I tried looking at the macros they call, which are in lisp.h. But those don't have doc strings and just call other functions that have no comments to say what they do. The macros and inline functions in lisp.h need to be documented there. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 05 11:08:47 2025 Received: (at 75290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jan 2025 16:08:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tUTBG-00037U-KX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2025 11:08:47 -0500 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:48121) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tUTBE-00037E-9d for 75290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2025 11:08:45 -0500 Received: (qmail 60211 invoked by uid 3782); 5 Jan 2025 17:08:36 +0100 Received: from muc.de (p4fe153b2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.83.178]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2025 17:08:36 +0100 Received: (qmail 4104 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jan 2025 16:08:35 -0000 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2025 16:08:35 +0000 To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290 Cc: acm@muc.de, 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Stefan. Thanks for the Cc:. On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 11:22:44 -0600, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Severity: wishlist > I'm forwarding this to the bug tracker so that we don't lose track of > it. Alan, any comments here? Yes. I remember vaguely having some difficulty formulating these doc strings. Making them accurate would have made them less readable. So I erred on the side of sketchy rather than unreadable. I underestimated the amount of difficulty this would cause. > -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- > From: Richard Stallman > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 22:39:23 -0400 > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The doc string of remove-pos-from-symbol says to compare it with > bare-symbol. The doc strings are too sketchy to make clear what the > difference is. Someone who knows should make that clear. > Is the difference what they do to an argument that is not a symbol? Yes. bare-symbol signals an error, remove-pos-from-symbol returns a non-symbol argument unchanged. > If so, it would be good to state that explicitly in the doc string > of bare-symbol. "If need be" is not explicit, not concrete. OK. The current doc string for bare-symbol is: Extract, if need be, the bare symbol from SYM. SYM is either a symbol or a symbol with position. Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enabled'. How about the following replacement? Extract and return the bare symbol from SYM, when it is a symbol with position. Return SYM unchanged when it is a symbol. Otherwise signal an error. Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enable'. Compare with `remove-pos-from-symbol'. > I tried looking at the macros they call, which are in lisp.h. But > those don't have doc strings and just call other functions that have > no comments to say what they do. > The macros and inline functions in lisp.h need to be documented there. I agree, this is bad and needs rectifying. The time taken to fix this would be less than the time wasted by people reading it and having to figure out for themselves what each macro/function does. When I added symbols with position to this part of lisp.h, I just did so in the style of the existing code, i.e. undocumented. I think somebody should fix it now. > -- > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > -------------------- End of forwarded message -------------------- -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Mar 01 23:18:02 2025 Received: (at 75290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Mar 2025 04:18:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49730 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1toamA-0008JH-GW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:18:02 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::532]:46108) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1toam8-0008IP-AN for 75290@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 23:18:01 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e4b410e48bso5145011a12.0 for <75290@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 20:18:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1740889074; x=1741493874; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lwE/vNPhOpVyO2VThTJB86kYZw5cD4uNjalqcUE6Sbg=; b=Qb5xA07Ae4+dOvuYGb2jjssEti06YKQi7g24xdIrHM5Z5THL0WkG1u9I2c52oE8N6A CbzM19859Dx1duBYroQczqz535hwfVr9sNX6aqiNl9gDonP40QyWyvRfHPrxEzKkeMKP tziy1JtopSLwCLdPfJ3ZfCMdnrcyQeeNoIMIMTfaWI1wYfP7itb7uGPY3ONq9rEagwDV VQu6ZT0+vxjeCCCi7LBo/R6cX3aCOZk2XFjd9tnRtxgwbMRBIR1S6Gq/GoVr6NJR1Lg7 wqD4bTq94bD6dietAZoJ+yG5q09NR7nBYMJ5EU1vos7infx0qHF4Is2EFWJwPmKtAg/M Enlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740889074; x=1741493874; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lwE/vNPhOpVyO2VThTJB86kYZw5cD4uNjalqcUE6Sbg=; b=P8vGbXvNmV/SxJ/aa4OMkUZWeFJ0tMJ5C/ykV3vCnpdDyTKSNojgq1Gp4dhqyJPwX5 aZpUWE+QY2IkE4/137TAVknYg2iBEl2GysfMxpYZYtJC3FB4PKTLB7jkP+qt4ktVmJ62 lWMydGAiLQUKrK83y2diLUhJdMh5txa49q17YwqXcWx/aO/bM+Gm7LNd2Ye1C+sImpJz 3qjtleyq3Tsziw3j3ASaZGPIep3EHxIJvU2MmbBJS4My8PO+UulMgmf0BWhGaoedDsWD nWHpMQodO8CKo5vwAjDgeYyvG1GwvoliQZnXuiVs1ZfmcP2dTmrXq4Kj6aFZmPHYDFCS jN+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzNEWhxc/4DJKryQMfUromuYM/TyURD0sOeYJD2IaywzidoEd8A Pr06xromRkp+MeWZTdU3KRc8aE6vfIYn58VW1zILi9klKY4IIGwZAoD9rq+1/Cj4nojVQbI8RJu BPg4esJTARt/NF/BXjQlK/uMFZDLHi4Yaiqk= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsn0nfuQ/hrQfapCwJnVrOUVm2/M64jZpdFJxzgI8KAUVgZ+iPD2vooyV75sxy ZUfdajvjn5e0hsc3oTKk/0t3cjYrxxtdijNg6hdk9jWmqEWfJpgFQYo1APOJtva4HNd9QyzhpnF TiRz4Nxae8E0tVvQ+la8Mn5ha01w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGcPoOj9/JZzHFuhfUgzJ409pqm4Hx/iCCRX/KgRTrGJUQy1a7+JyHjZAbo9mFwezt8X4oa84TxibtqLja9a54= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:d0b:b0:5e4:c532:d693 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e4d6b8535fmr8546359a12.31.1740889073823; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 20:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 1 Mar 2025 20:17:53 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 20:17:53 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JpPXcC4PxJkzvOiI2hTOQt9lvwxOQI9RcQiR9hAJOcDNib3JCZ1nP82Bwc Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol To: Alan Mackenzie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290 Cc: 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Stefan. > > Thanks for the Cc:. > > On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 11:22:44 -0600, Stefan Kangas wrote: >> Severity: wishlist > >> I'm forwarding this to the bug tracker so that we don't lose track of >> it. Alan, any comments here? > > Yes. I remember vaguely having some difficulty formulating these doc > strings. Making them accurate would have made them less readable. So I > erred on the side of sketchy rather than unreadable. I underestimated > the amount of difficulty this would cause. > >> -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- >> From: Richard Stallman >> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Subject: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol >> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 22:39:23 -0400 > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> The doc string of remove-pos-from-symbol says to compare it with >> bare-symbol. The doc strings are too sketchy to make clear what the >> difference is. Someone who knows should make that clear. > >> Is the difference what they do to an argument that is not a symbol? > > Yes. bare-symbol signals an error, remove-pos-from-symbol returns a > non-symbol argument unchanged. > >> If so, it would be good to state that explicitly in the doc string >> of bare-symbol. "If need be" is not explicit, not concrete. > > OK. The current doc string for bare-symbol is: > > Extract, if need be, the bare symbol from SYM. > SYM is either a symbol or a symbol with position. > Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enabled'. > > How about the following replacement? > > Extract and return the bare symbol from SYM, when it is a symbol > with position. Return SYM unchanged when it is a symbol. Otherwise > signal an error. Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enable'. > > Compare with `remove-pos-from-symbol'. Richard, could you please comment on this? >> I tried looking at the macros they call, which are in lisp.h. But >> those don't have doc strings and just call other functions that have >> no comments to say what they do. > >> The macros and inline functions in lisp.h need to be documented there. > > I agree, this is bad and needs rectifying. The time taken to fix this > would be less than the time wasted by people reading it and having to > figure out for themselves what each macro/function does. > > When I added symbols with position to this part of lisp.h, I just did so > in the style of the existing code, i.e. undocumented. > > I think somebody should fix it now. Would you be willing to propose such docstrings? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 04 15:06:43 2025 Received: (at 75290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Mar 2025 20:06:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33077 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tpYXK-0005XV-FF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:06:42 -0500 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:56178) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tpYXH-0005XC-2G for 75290@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:06:40 -0500 Received: (qmail 77733 invoked by uid 3782); 4 Mar 2025 21:06:31 +0100 Received: from muc.de (pd953a22b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.83.162.43]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 21:06:30 +0100 Received: (qmail 12051 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 2025 20:06:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 20:06:30 +0000 To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290 Cc: 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Stefan. On Sat, Mar 01, 2025 at 20:17:53 -0800, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > Hello, Stefan. > > Thanks for the Cc:. > > On Thu, Jan 02, 2025 at 11:22:44 -0600, Stefan Kangas wrote: > >> Severity: wishlist > >> I'm forwarding this to the bug tracker so that we don't lose track of > >> it. Alan, any comments here? > > Yes. I remember vaguely having some difficulty formulating these doc > > strings. Making them accurate would have made them less readable. So I > > erred on the side of sketchy rather than unreadable. I underestimated > > the amount of difficulty this would cause. > >> -------------------- Start of forwarded message -------------------- > >> From: Richard Stallman > >> To: emacs-devel@gnu.org > >> Subject: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol > >> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 22:39:23 -0400 > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> The doc string of remove-pos-from-symbol says to compare it with > >> bare-symbol. The doc strings are too sketchy to make clear what the > >> difference is. Someone who knows should make that clear. > >> Is the difference what they do to an argument that is not a symbol? > > Yes. bare-symbol signals an error, remove-pos-from-symbol returns a > > non-symbol argument unchanged. > >> If so, it would be good to state that explicitly in the doc string > >> of bare-symbol. "If need be" is not explicit, not concrete. > > OK. The current doc string for bare-symbol is: > > Extract, if need be, the bare symbol from SYM. > > SYM is either a symbol or a symbol with position. > > Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enabled'. > > How about the following replacement? > > Extract and return the bare symbol from SYM, when it is a symbol > > with position. Return SYM unchanged when it is a symbol. Otherwise > > signal an error. Ignore `symbols-with-pos-enable'. > > Compare with `remove-pos-from-symbol'. > Richard, could you please comment on this? > >> I tried looking at the macros they call, which are in lisp.h. But > >> those don't have doc strings and just call other functions that have > >> no comments to say what they do. > >> The macros and inline functions in lisp.h need to be documented there. > > I agree, this is bad and needs rectifying. The time taken to fix this > > would be less than the time wasted by people reading it and having to > > figure out for themselves what each macro/function does. > > When I added symbols with position to this part of lisp.h, I just did so > > in the style of the existing code, i.e. undocumented. > > I think somebody should fix it now. > Would you be willing to propose such docstrings? I'm afraid I need to decline such requests. I'm no longer working on Emacs (except for CC Mode, and possibly things I'm "responsible" for). I'm now working on other things. Sorry. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 04 15:50:27 2025 Received: (at 75290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Mar 2025 20:50:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33162 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tpZDf-0007lv-0S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:50:27 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::532]:46559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tpZDb-0007lb-Om for 75290@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:50:25 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e538388dd1so3835191a12.1 for <75290@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 12:50:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741121417; x=1741726217; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kQyLWTpY2BGqpuNV2FsDpH0SzKvRB10bAFo2/4YWL/c=; b=Gb40ARanTp0KJpmNHxlCXL7odgr9pQJv4U+zenp3eeU5x+qoRXbAHRi8Deu+pseopH ZJt5mw/NSvbNE6xGHOJa6PBvTfzuXwKFwgSFSKBhTvEM9lhZsjrn2yY2smOgSYzRuzxZ OPitgUe9Y+Vhwqxq76TwV1B1QLxRZDf7bFATeMW/EpxXNb6puF+uCeh6cVh3VkyYHWSp /3d4wYzlPyZkA2NugpCj0gaqoBuaAkOeFfbKFGnv+vjU1syYcicTQgtDP3yiOz5CwAQz ZVay2c8uh1Tsrj7QTvVPcFKcR1kA5VtFn49wDvzUTOISreu/lKLOAJn8CWWG4MqJFOID 2jMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741121417; x=1741726217; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kQyLWTpY2BGqpuNV2FsDpH0SzKvRB10bAFo2/4YWL/c=; b=Z4PXZC1X3QCex+kXx62Z0CshZyqu4oq6MN+p868icCxhseVeZAYBkM3qZQOFsYS00A o5kViNWGpd4roJEelcFUiKadtUWQiA7BCXJQUxg9kY+CeIMW8ebbCjnJ/LCMO5zpCrcV iXbqs4f0JDemBqM/MwNlKMhPwlZxJzxrG5nhLZiFDlbEiZ+9SBd21lRvVnig/PKOtPhl YNGuuFVOx1zP8PhUxonwf+A5pB/oRt+Vwz4yT3hhiY3dEFAaRoaW9SQLX2T8s+s9pGea 9rObl29frnT2z2woQ/MhG2xX12SRqUtlifS1vEnrNHIXSG7VopowtM+uYvQzgpxe1ibS u7bA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwHmmLvv6TQEal+S/G1ZsoBk+o9krv0gGajg7CVndGL7kkkKHsx o0baSpZp7J+DGDqQwcM/JcuS4luXlN/IKtVI6H4dqbTKgUBen/A3VBWcgcv+NsTJX6EoQ2j63++ WcTeoLZhkmLGvbcFVxemxQHa27XJvNJ3T45cxkA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctJbahVlbj9WDEk/R5iRuRbU9KHlT5GvNreeYR239jojWmFJGEf3TyS5I4gQwf ra+sEV9ily9a+gBhdS/d4nLs81BWy1o0HxmimD60kFbOPvMMdRlpdSr0dexeqnxVywCujjoreGQ 0oT9el8C/KNB1CEJ9UKKoy4Mzm8YQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGitJ+IKhOgrVhhMkiDENqZ1Q+vVKH65B7yHwnme8M7cORnbaI+Vr6MAG/F2+l8Ww4Wbo8qsePm0xOZ6iqD5D0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:5113:b0:5e4:d530:31a0 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e59f1c3debmr547621a12.0.1741121417348; Tue, 04 Mar 2025 12:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 4 Mar 2025 20:50:17 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 20:50:17 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1Jq88jjZUFiTkHMTiV-F2aDfyd7pvz6_OL4FovkF0e-Wov8hrdM1jjpqvDg Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol To: Alan Mackenzie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290 Cc: 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Alan Mackenzie writes: >> Would you be willing to propose such docstrings? > > I'm afraid I need to decline such requests. I'm no longer working on > Emacs (except for CC Mode, and possibly things I'm "responsible" for). > I'm now working on other things. > > Sorry. Understood, and thanks for letting us know. I suppose we need someone else to familiarize themselves with this code and make the docstring improvements here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 06 05:55:20 2025 Received: (at 75290-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2025 10:55:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41698 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tq8sq-0006Ab-7j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 05:55:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60662) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tq8sn-00064t-IM for 75290-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 05:55:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tq8sh-0002Ka-DW; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 05:55:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=O97THHEEdPpm5H3yEaqjzsqnsN8UjI0fGCkT+qPQ2E0=; b=lxf79vQpmzhV qTZf3Oi7VJQ12AQnBACysckjkSrtqkhIsV0mS0s1efyRxc2CVoM7mTVnzyNmOWQMawWWM4eYsniT2 sRkzXbxf0CBp4QqorGNP4TnYNntju5LzyVNJr64gbfLTQYNQXbLLUk/tZXKSvLGI+4MQfg0ey4GBt F0SGGTsRSbW7TTrNSi5Ofmaa9ICzjWRfrDUCBO1bbbEWKJnkktgbSqORb1KzdEfKB9MlBZxAyeYRJ Hi4GiAgU2La54gslg5g/Aw/DvX709rTG3po8tWPa5ncd7ybJHVgebRwL7TAh/w1+BD2IJ9P50cv2h gwTfjICcjvkI50GOu/EqTQ==; Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 12:55:00 +0200 Message-Id: <86tt86mnsr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 4 Mar 2025 20:50:17 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290-done Cc: acm@muc.de, 75290-done@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 20:50:17 +0000 > > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > >> Would you be willing to propose such docstrings? > > > > I'm afraid I need to decline such requests. I'm no longer working on > > Emacs (except for CC Mode, and possibly things I'm "responsible" for). > > I'm now working on other things. > > > > Sorry. > > Understood, and thanks for letting us know. > > I suppose we need someone else to familiarize themselves with this code > and make the docstring improvements here. The required changes in the doc strings are so simple that frankly I was surprised by Alan's response. Anyway, this is now fixed on the emacs-30 release branch; closing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 06 06:08:56 2025 Received: (at 75290) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2025 11:08:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41719 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tq960-0006os-GY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 06:08:56 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]:60512) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tq95y-0006oU-24 for 75290@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 06:08:54 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e5bc066283so694665a12.0 for <75290@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 03:08:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741259327; x=1741864127; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tMhot3xAIy9TI7c6java6iT/+Th/kYTI/Q3HGHZTids=; b=L33wDhSIvYA7Lf/cSh6IUP5fadKulzZI7sq6bKNx/NsJ6OyQaBK/EN3LzP32q40BrC L8fZNowW6Qmp2OEzgBv93ry82WSI0xdXnh0mP8WoGFmZ/tqVK6tC3R1Ex6THtuxgQ+GZ ngsDAaH4UbFJnmIduGD5jWI56hsLBfgGTd9kYEUEQGf6mgCZ6Yn3S5uT6hZXFaA2IJpD 426zV3sHqcTNyTyttRJip2A+VEmI2zE4QEOTnifnQYxMNS8Cevy/IUaXnKjuAhsJCwuA eeGfYEpttRwmH+CoFki9NIRPTOKEyhpkFmQzo+UzHQobZqFExtv7DqF7s1DNgXjj4qYb t2+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741259327; x=1741864127; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tMhot3xAIy9TI7c6java6iT/+Th/kYTI/Q3HGHZTids=; b=vrPdEgZwXRLrPyvzT6nsR1UhlLlfO6iHGLi/V8WYjd0d8RSrmxue4PyDwNA/edoPUN ACfUjK5faT5izB6HNcuH5qHdG5SFOicKnMfVMMT9I274a+Qt9j8K4/KIEm432nPR7/Hx wyfNJ6IXEQn4/cKfYS7M7mkPJN4aj+GPAMefLJll9w+EqpKFET093ONZRej6SW8sSCQD 9YammRfbhoOee0lHqK9dNUVv8/LbEfXkU6737RJreqhrRsKfwaAJsuTcEt9gPBtHnlj7 FIhIA39uYuAtDCjHhw/L9t3bQuXvO8BV/rYdrzojBrYUXWJv0SKeY1kEyg8+qix94DQ+ YDHA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWSy23eRl4pMcanQqOtJcd1gqRMJvNBVcvvRnSXIP9I5nAOIV5QiItYkXGoe/V2sh3GZSB88Q==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzr6wadQSPb3BLuw5geEPDvV4s4ADYPYndRFjnfKs5MlxJLUoqm o802I3Gse1j+JFk0eK6R7cu9uaUnM9WyxkvWHY0lSZGKy4MjMOHHgrM5aaFwLiQI5nWu8fCIbUt dKQljzxAEejpt567IdHQh2ZnDKK8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctuPFAb99lve7/cpXL2eofEBcUISSn4QJ2Y830TCwBhvE5PtAPO5YSHWqCXZt6 bumLd8DYDde75ieczUEpvCVcItyHj0pvuRHhdkUY0K8bevEevW8uBp/mBcJqqk4mzKZH2oPIQZz mZceBlb4N7PWXcOXQbLTdR82SxGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEaM7XBlnZD8kasvtjsF3sl3YBopY+XEJZGTxACjyJql0fVcB7Lj5pGamM626EqXgoh6G8rLjy8AAbvb608opA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:274b:b0:5e0:7ff3:20c with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e59f3cebbamr6966115a12.17.1741259327014; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 03:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 6 Mar 2025 03:08:45 -0800 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <86tt86mnsr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <86tt86mnsr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 03:08:45 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1Jp2YSj4tLA3jgqPC7GF90epVlEe3KeY01Qm1ZsnApkHMtPSaKgWLNn6A5Y Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#75290: Fwd: remove-pos-from-symbol and bare-symbol To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 75290 Cc: acm@muc.de, 75290@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Anyway, this is now fixed on the emacs-30 release branch; closing. Thanks for doing that. From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:23:28 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2025 11:24:19 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator