From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 22 20:37:45 2024 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2024 01:37:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEf5l-0006Np-3b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 20:37:45 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:38458) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEd3W-0008DS-4d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:27:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEd3T-0001jR-Qs for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:27:15 -0500 Received: from st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com ([17.58.63.172]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEd3S-0008H6-96 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 18:27:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1732318029; bh=G9ZOOn9Wqbd1g5KN5qJhWp+R+aHAfB5cr+iZzfW0OEc=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id:Content-Type:MIME-Version: x-icloud-hme; b=nxVmwmki6ex1y6P4QPqIVlIZ2xftHh18dfcO3i3/enUOAWd8Jx+NiUtmg3zLe0muk TT+KM8KkklH2Ht7r0L7qAVg6vdQGbS14K8Jcl41Q5ca9KPHAyRsZJriwhQj6JF1KnQ ATLOOgzA+nURXAvWWtpLn60tErMgTiTfioh7+O7dQ+9aLe7R9ZlQt34c0Wx8774DnG Bb2Fja0sGhb37SXWTQFVoavEVDxXdvI7IXC4t9x1TzweihvghBPxgNBzDsRWpnHt4U flt1fyyfi8jsJanI5nz5Z5ijrTSKkO4dwJ3Rdc+Nawh4tAzPXnqVAOde2Resc53kt1 j9nhClKcc+m7w== Received: from st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com (st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com [17.58.63.172]) by st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5272380399 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from p00-mailws2-7ff47948d8-pj4hv (st43p00im.dlb-asmtpoutvip.me.com [10.76.196.233]) by st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65FCD380183 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC) To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Raj Divecha Subject: Why not modernize Emacs Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: iCloud MailClientcurrent MailServer2429B28.6954931b110c Message-id: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Webmail-42--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: NDoF4Z9SAF2GTX9kLjzl85up80lpQvgh X-Proofpoint-GUID: NDoF4Z9SAF2GTX9kLjzl85up80lpQvgh X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.62.30 definitions=2024-11-22_14,2024-11-21_01,2024-09-30_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=778 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2411220199 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.172; envelope-from=rjd1977tech@icloud.com; helo=st43p00im-ztfb10061701.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -5 X-Spam_score: -0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=2.197, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 20:37:41 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) --Apple-Webmail-42--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable edi= tor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that the = learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the b= ox. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to prov= ide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, w= hile I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my d= eveloper IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a proje= ct explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create workspa= ces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On = the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs= already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't= feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out wit= h a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface whe= n needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing s= omething? Thanks, Raj --Apple-Webmail-42--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Webmail-86--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83 --Apple-Webmail-86--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8;
Hi,

I am an occasional Emacs user. I kno= w that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, most modern editors provid= e similar features, just that the learning curve for them is close to noth= ing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs?= How difficult would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one= yet fully capable?

For example, while I can = use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer ID= E. I want some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer= like extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, projec= t, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same li= nes, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions.
Emacs already supports all this but the learning curve is so = steep that I don't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't = Emacs come out with a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an adv= ance interface when needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -= OR- Am I missing something?

Thanks,
=
Raj

--Apple-Webmail-86--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83-- --Apple-Webmail-42--2de3a72c-341f-4f9f-a0df-cae619a1fe83-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 22 22:58:39 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2024 03:58:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56282 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEhI6-0004fE-TE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:58:39 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f46.google.com ([209.85.208.46]:47525) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEhI0-0004ek-Ps for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:58:36 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5cfddc94c83so3316345a12.3 for <74488@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:58:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732334252; x=1732939052; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zzlN8PGOCLr18mu6q77JJ3owsA2xCe4NM9E45bPVKhE=; b=fTSDPT3sm14LwtWa/lp4wvUL4n3IdVt+uYUdUI+Jora3A8hKuR7Bi0MSCfW5TMiJgP lWW7J1S8dzVyKti3+LHPQ6jeXqHXJfCH1IY2pOepdIOViRBRqJ/zVRPmbi9jhNpjcAHy SQRYYEL/ns2ASR7wgw/Fl+LgRuhaszNss5nLHs4F5h3sRSYHsiky3OywPw60bkIiyFXw FL5ldeHErOipImXR1kspJlmJQepu8mO1kf8NtjD+YwoXB+3B+JYz7yrbwFvYd2jN8WCr nEbaJZy/prEHEDcIq+hyUwlzfd8EZNYv/qHqC7HrYfkSW6Uq3t/MM1X273JQxQSOq3ve crLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732334252; x=1732939052; h=to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zzlN8PGOCLr18mu6q77JJ3owsA2xCe4NM9E45bPVKhE=; b=cu+vbc9jXnCY2wESDU6HtfT6FxHQJ5/UgGovX5bUhujDEnADrhUIocvVQFblTjN8ga hvk1DeHeOhOyXT0MHlK822WcCVm5YlScGOoK4WaN9FDBGYTnxseVHeyLpEW7zUebUOpd /9KQX8r+y4Nhcgb3/fBIAjRj0End1u/4K3zopTw+PlR951sd3d/0Xirv/xj8letKzydg El76hNV4lXQ/J+hPA4eJUCy7Di+d6RddXuwTeifLQlUf3jk/dzc+ppAJSdIj+54mYNub K4iw6UH5VabvOsbym1uI0A0UOIYTpebCzGDnU68CvpPhxs6z6kqdNrzVKsJ5/JekvXpc 1mFw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUzlj1uF6UZeETmXVr0bo3bFqtU8GY06jw6oHk150m7jCxDnDm2e7iTYabkUOG5cEofW+wFmQ==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyI3BCiW7z6AW24vmv3OwtN6+TVC3tmSqcRi2TVn4Zalwu//VrQ CeFxPCKTQgm2eyC36lmLTx5MMsYGoBhCYBI7mXVq+c/Cssnd0W1gqw39DOw92lSOn3MHu19i9MB RWX4XyZcPtTGkdyEZLexw9jCABmE= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsUr9urL/hK+lF5wZjWhMPEcr7rv/EssPUTSLVD2N28OjCQH6jJt0dz7H/pgE0 t2nypLWCFXYCBhBOPkrI9ahe7QChsHd6N X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IExPfhvF9X30/k1ITYb2rFHQ4q+hWiLcBTDoB/JnKDANS6f21PesVQ7j+Qtt4t6vrOoqxJVgeEUyamRQa7y9Pg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:5113:b0:5cf:9cd1:1f77 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d0205f42f8mr4104562a12.8.1732334251937; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 19:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:57:31 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:57:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs To: Raj Divecha , 74488@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 74488 + notabug close 74488 thanks Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable > editor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just > that the learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work > out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult > would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully > capable? For example, while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I > still can't use it as my developer IDE. I want some feature that will > help me easily install a project explorer like extension. The project > explorer could help create workspaces, project, help me navigate them > with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I would like a > LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports all this > but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like opening it > anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler > interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when > needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing > something? Thanks, Raj Thanks for sharing your ideas about how to improve Emacs. We always aim for at least feature parity with typical IDEs, and in many cases we actually have a much stronger set of features than they do. But it is true that the Emacs interface is fundamentally different from that of VSCode. It's challenging to provide a different user interface along the lines that you suggest, while also providing all the features that we do. However, this bug list is not really appropriate or intended for very wide-ranging discussions about what Emacs could look like in the future. It is intended for much more focused discussions about specific and reproducible bugs in Emacs, and narrowly scoped feature requests. For that reason, I will close this bug report now. I believe you might have more success discussing these and other similar ideas in forums such as the Emacs Reddit page or on IRC. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 23 02:01:29 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2024 07:01:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56536 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEk93-0005bu-Af for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 02:01:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52274) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tEk91-0005bV-QN; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 02:01:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEk6q-00040G-ED; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 01:59:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=4ahY0DSj6paxVEvEva4fVayoN49GpmMLI/pW6VVnNZk=; b=J6pKUwZoSsoMSSGqfwfG D7U9aGVP+wf0w+AYmrVTnh5VV5VUyjzOctnOkDBNAm1UGUE1BbR0QOOvIEELm4FXH5Lc13fpKzbus 9hufWJFyBA3QaniNNNzx6uJ7C+Qgl3yq5pnQJAL4aMS/MIA6pVv5pEDOCcPxtIfwmlC+0v3A+fAHB GwnvBNwWsc0vp1nwamsskjMUsroamepvtip36jz67OSqCg2Nq6L2R2oEDq0F/9aOGiTDVF1n2FeQJ D+Zgx155vtsp6AcWbUykQQSyBJgUgaEdNvHv6WOIP3KUa4i3Fs3ldPxWe/VU4M8iTsExods1C/9iJ a9D9RhUxMa0vGQ==; Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:59:09 +0200 Message-Id: <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Raj Divecha In-Reply-To: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) severity 74488 wishlist thanks > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC) > From: Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" >=20 > Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable ed= itor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that the = learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the bo= x. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provid= e a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, whil= e I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my devel= oper IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a project ex= plorer like extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, p= roject, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the sam= e lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already= supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel lik= e opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simple= r interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) a= nd throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Th= anks, Raj The simple answer to your questions is "because no one has yet proposed code changes to implement those features." Emacs is developed by a loosely-coupled group of volunteers, each one of whom contributes changes in the areas that are of interest to him/her and match their domains of expertise. We acknowledge the need and the advantages of having the advanced IDE-related features work out of the box, but have no way of assigning someone to the job of actually doing that non-trivial job. It is non-trivial because different users of Emacs have different interests and needs (e.g., develop in vastly different programming languages), and setting up the tools we have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task. In addition, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers and services, so it is much more difficult for us to provide OOTB configuration for features that rely on external programs and servers. But if and when someone comes with code that does one of these jobs, we embrace that very quickly. Examples include Tree-Sitter based major modes, LSP support via Eglot, etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome to contribute additional features that will make Emacs a better IDE, and ease the learning curve for newcomers. Thank you for your interest in Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 23 23:37:44 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2024 04:37:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60297 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tF4NT-0002qT-V4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tF4NR-0002qB-Ca for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:42 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tF4NL-0006RT-Kk; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=LSkHXUhyGN0Y8gZoJVg2hiV/wAtB3ctDvctSJ8OHZFs=; b=Kz9b+PD3DHFp OQtwPSbJilHUFrumdvUNiKQGc8moEo9hfS2cVTIjJ01UIMSRCdFfrOz4W3G0+rALq9rsllCTRIJnw nG+bvDRcpzwvAt9dcbqL1kF91HMFu8oW/kEcYx7VTA4g1UWe8D7Hpkq0PbTZgwZnGFxvTxcLVTxHR FMx3kSZ53tS8Odg+xBeuAOq4OEwMSTn3y4dRCOBfNFoBD/siCwN5hODNFE7U6sN1ZHP6xRxW7zgdG CbKtoL0Oz0FhDS3RYSZS1RY1RTfZyM6irXcEh7UDJNBp+MonzMYr8uefTZwDsrX4S/SJVmq7nXMnq jxuc+zA26cjpLpGb9gWw+w==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tF4NK-0001CD-I2; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:34 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:57:31 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:34 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, rjd1977tech@icloud.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > However, this bug list is not really appropriate or intended for very > wide-ranging discussions about what Emacs could look like in the future. > It is intended for much more focused discussions about specific and > reproducible bugs in Emacs, and narrowly scoped feature requests. We do have a list for feature discussions: emacs-devel@gnu.org. that is the place to bring up ideas for features. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 25 12:58:53 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2024 17:58:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40359 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tFdMK-00046q-VS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 12:58:53 -0500 Received: from st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com ([17.58.63.166]:53344) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tFdMI-00046Z-ED for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 12:58:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1732557524; bh=9OtFaQkflhJmYbuJvm4FO2ZNL7EHwAnjvo7pmby9KJ8=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id:Content-Type:MIME-Version: x-icloud-hme; b=kwfDo3hPOb6vSTtFd3UNqY1cthp7DvigZPXxm0pzyzwn+zAOiW4GmFJ2CxocFxlf1 VNMg0Q8HxTuRkydRFtrKErZLFsNoaMVCtAz6cLo9ROEsiMTa+/1QipOjdF8v7ykpxm JPkMNbdULUgLMDD5sAidTEI6gtxPXrMMq6jSGo2hyuJlxnJYy0vCvHejLuhGrfwGPe PHa7ueY6fLNVlWrs94Yqo2xf4gzELdhhunT8br7jK2c8cdhPsksMwtLRbczQ4vFbUI AgxEGzHu0eCvCp6VsGhVip/jZlY28bE35Fg7rL+aqY1enBk7WsPgaVAgKc1UBX7Nn7 coc8Uj/jbJFpQ== Received: from st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com [17.58.63.166]) by st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73749C801E2; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from p00-mailws2-7ff47948d8-2wb5r (st43p00im.dlb-asmtpoutvip.me.com [10.76.196.233]) by st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2329BC80A3A; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC) To: Eli Zaretskii From: Raj Divecha Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: iCloud MailClientcurrent MailServer2429B28.6954931b110c Message-id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: pgpX8ZZhbMixzC-2XDUJoAIBP8-TEucJ X-Proofpoint-GUID: pgpX8ZZhbMixzC-2XDUJoAIBP8-TEucJ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2024-11-25_10,2024-11-25_01,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2411250149 X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED RBL: ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. 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[17.58.63.166 listed in bl.score.senderscore.com] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [17.58.63.166 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjd1977tech[at]icloud.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 2.2 MALFORMED_FREEMAIL Bad headers on message from free email service X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) --Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread & but= ter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++/Python,= validating features of various ICs that my company manufactures and I kno= w if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but at the end of the da= y my bread & butter job takes priority over everything else. Just out of c= uriosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there a document I can re= view and get a feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many en= gineers do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertis= e required? LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to custom= ize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be = supported simultaneously. On Nov 22, 2024, at 11:59 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: severity 74488 wishlist thanks Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23= :27:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the S= wiss army knife of text editors" Hi, I am an occas= ional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, mos= t modern editors provide similar features, just that the learning curve fo= r them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wo= ndering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provide a different i= nterface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, while I can use Em= acs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer IDE. I w= ant some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer like = extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, project, hel= p me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I= would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports= all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like openin= g it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler inter= face (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) and thr= ow the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Thanks,= Raj The simple answer to your questions is "because no one has yet propos= ed code changes to implement those features." Emacs is developed by a loos= ely-coupled group of volunteers, each one of whom contributes changes in t= he areas that are of interest to him/her and match their domains of expert= ise. We acknowledge the need and the advantages of having the advanced IDE= -related features work out of the box, but have no way of assigning someon= e to the job of actually doing that non-trivial job. It is non-trivial bec= ause different users of Emacs have different interests and needs (e.g., de= velop in vastly different programming languages), and setting up the tools= we have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task. In addit= ion, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers and service= s, so it is much more difficult for us to provide OOTB configuration for f= eatures that rely on external programs and servers. But if and when someon= e comes with code that does one of these jobs, we embrace that very quickl= y. Examples include Tree-Sitter based major modes, LSP support via Eglot, = etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome to contribute additional features that w= ill make Emacs a better IDE, and ease the learning curve for newcomers. Th= ank you for your interest in Emacs. --Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Webmail-86--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a --Apple-Webmail-86--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8;
I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with= my bread & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly wo= rk on C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company man= ufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but a= t the end of the day my bread & butter job takes priority over everyth= ing else.

Just out of curiosity, what will it= take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a feel fo= r the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers do you think a= re needed to work on this and the different expertise required? LISP is ki= nd of dead and the users might need Python to customize their interface, t= hus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported simultaneous= ly.


= On Nov 22, 2024, at 11:59 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


severity 74488 wishlis= t
thanks

<= div>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC)
From: Raj D= ivecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
the Swiss army knife = of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>

Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable e= ditor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that th= e learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the= box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to pr= ovide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example,= while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my= developer IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a pro= ject explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create works= paces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. O= n the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Ema= cs already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don= 't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out w= ith a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface w= hen needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing= something? Thanks, Raj

The simp= le answer to your questions is "because no one has yet
propo= sed code changes to implement those features."

Emacs is developed by a loosely-coupled group of volunteers, each one
of whom contributes changes in the areas that are of interest = to
him/her and match their domains of expertise. We acknowl= edge the need
and the advantages of having the advanced IDE-= related features work
out of the box, but have no way of ass= igning someone to the job of
actually doing that non-trivial= job. It is non-trivial because
different users of Emacs ha= ve different interests and needs (e.g.,
develop in vastly di= fferent programming languages), and setting up the
tools we = have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task.
In addition, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers
and services, so it is much more difficult for us to provide = OOTB
configuration for features that rely on external progra= ms and servers.

But if and when someone comes= with code that does one of these jobs,
we embrace that very= quickly. Examples include Tree-Sitter based
major modes, L= SP support via Eglot, etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome
to = contribute additional features that will make Emacs a better IDE,
and ease the learning curve for newcomers.

<= div>Thank you for your interest in Emacs.



--Apple-Webmail-86--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a-- --Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 25 14:00:17 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2024 19:00:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40688 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tFeJl-00078B-6V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 14:00:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42682) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tFeJi-00074r-2r for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 14:00:15 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tFeJb-0003gV-O0; Mon, 25 Nov 2024 14:00:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=O46Stu+iNFJrex2Rzyl6198/6o3+mtffknx+XOxnr1E=; b=dOvEG0vzSvK4 CiBlbWrlQiKfm0CfTskSKbyzHYUwgQCY4REZd2i94AGDacAKn6BnfEND9KKBin4GYugMqjgrSNxVw 0zqQWJc4ZTMgPRuDB+YQcwmfQRiPrPjoR55DJjSJ4OWL85kFh0aHEB2jrVfjGiuqGzHjbM4oWc2ge F7bjwmJUrLL8n48smCrnWX3j5xmz7Vop683kA6hvf3dRF5X2e4WOeddiYv0Z/Ji2Bbyy7DCSDNGef gfY2HalRQMSXpcabGAsJoRw+6dQFcq5usNGR3mrfDorBQ7fkiDYcfO8lZEEUASR6TLYnMH6J9BSUg 6FnAe+5hxbtM6gt7sjiaQQ==; Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 20:59:47 +0200 Message-Id: <865xobi1gc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Raj Divecha In-Reply-To: (message from Raj Divecha on Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC)) Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Raj Divecha > Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC) > > I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread > & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on > C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company > manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial > change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes > priority over everything else. Just out of curiosity, what will it > take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a > feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers > do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertise > required? That depends on what is the scope of the work. This is not a single monolith job that cannot be subdivided into smaller ones. So the first step towards answering your questions is to identify those smaller parts and steps, and then prioritize them. When that is done, we could try estimating the effort required for the most important parts. > LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to > customize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will > have to be supported simultaneously. That just makes the bar higher, IMO. It is easy to extend Emacs by writing Lisp programs; doing that in Python is currently impossible, and will need a non-trivial development of the required infrastructure. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 16:59:58 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2024 21:59:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG3bC-0003IT-J6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 16:59:58 -0500 Received: from mail-yw1-f180.google.com ([209.85.128.180]:47597) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG3bA-0003ID-CF for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 16:59:56 -0500 Received: by mail-yw1-f180.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6ee6a2ae6ecso61129357b3.3 for <74488@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:59:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732658330; x=1733263130; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QWXrYoZXYf9Lv01glX73BqQSfcJikl4/pD2Q+4dzP7o=; b=SEPWAav6iJUEsH9tAFSK/kQczUiiHC0Gf4bqh68Y6MKqh7szxxDq4+9Y8doaJLX/aS tJ8gPMsCnTEXsPN7+dA/r7kUmX0btca1Rd1KasIdJZEwzlz9U4eTx39oQzD5IljlTX6o cq91bm4JIPELqi961/fbV5tTuSS74wLwacofIXIOJP9numVYWzelamp8MHSTb6hdaLa6 26ptg7pfhCujQze/S8I/iroJ3z7/PNoEQc/GxfWXaHAoe9aImrunLgmE6+ndYVPElnyI 9cA8mSlT9BIHuARkHJW1UDQx/4aCauY3fHFdsnGDZFlPFkta6oHZqOexaQ1We8QyQRn2 vQJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732658330; x=1733263130; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=QWXrYoZXYf9Lv01glX73BqQSfcJikl4/pD2Q+4dzP7o=; b=npj+0+6KtcKUhgSVDvTMTuSnUVJoF5ZddvFNiMK37aDnSmkH1ZwAwp077c6X6tcMfr hptqbfQ/9rnCXjqw7HNdtw8QxinJrQGUAwnS8y/pphn2z850w3KqrW+aOWdf0xyOBULe E9eSJ6FaSqGKMJSO78wyBgHhPDcXeTt3RXO84FlDOf7hCUloiWcziTI9tZHT6oj4KwBJ EwLjAjf1MGUw6Pom5xYdmGCUKEJ7Gn3sm7+ZSfuWZKAGKEbBF3tbg9NFatV51N1wo6Lb hzZ51YNaD4O0gASGyRumAKL862p2/Gl0+ItE4r/76A5ksIz5ygAIG0/ttu5aOgLH6GMZ z0GQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVSlwM97vaKC/i1rNxwETTVPREZXsZvGG0khRjVUNjwd8MaqNhVlmnaKIy1KEtVHR884nL84A==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzgo84YXlEPV03Cy4X6xmxH5Cnp+sr3/efowOYjvnSzK4YpLZSx oaQuCXN9OJBdwG4H8JfAvOt8V9VEDqD7K08LdqiDa0zqV1G3KeCS0hdAbmDvKwrZWWV/6QjKLyx aAmCSv1O+wHi39CrbcE53dZPQrdM= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctC6BSSz+DSPW7fCO9oY7rDeSJhjY94vAQFCBnn9Tv6xCL0uNFK5cHK7KMCkJ4 1AgdPwLCUxKSg9nE5TMfUwxscJ90HXmZNqyQHWNowwTrOnIswC5lYZoOSUBSw1Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEjFINuEJjXgB3iY3/gjevlrrDPNpxT9HzMQZcAA3erOApvFzpGmi5SGohOwaHeRlcVeaFGNLXAfk9FjexnpJg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6712:b0:6e5:a8ce:dd0a with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6ef3729d613mr9404047b3.35.1732658329706; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:58:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eduardo Ochs Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 18:58:37 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs To: Raj Divecha Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 14:59, Raj Divecha via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > > I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread > & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on > C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company > manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial > change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes > priority over everything else. > > Just out of curiosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there > a document I can review and get a feel for the amount of work? And > approximately, how many engineers do you think are needed to work on > this and the different expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and > the users might need Python to customize their interface, thus, I > believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported > simultaneously. Hi Raj, have you read this thread? https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00018.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/threads.html#00018 Cheers, Eduardo Ochs From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 17:42:15 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2024 22:42:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG4G3-0005YO-DQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 17:42:15 -0500 Received: from st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com ([17.58.63.166]:41728) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG4G2-0005YC-2k for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 17:42:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1732660924; bh=ANy6g2YhnTcUE76gqutHbN2RYMX7lCI1exk/eIvq7o8=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id:Content-Type:MIME-Version: x-icloud-hme; b=FScjIaaE6om75ZIc8FqFC9lPvREYs+G0mEgDbkG6XE63LIZ6GvpkBMXwsGzf9LZhh /o1eEcD5W38TIhD46B2+2DgDeQUs+Y+ux0GhucqLMHLKw6lGV8OZzBiTvfqRdUyYLZ ey/HfUfH5XnLwRb28NnOb1qQQBa87CGtsZwPS4bCSWXTIUgkl106sTdk6wpSNvBa78 gKcyZf5kCLprENFE7hy/Q4galI7QrzW27A7uL/+uYxdQjMqTNBIzxrlksHY8jusIyQ HfexbhAHDm3EonleC2+h5w7WN3J/rq/sfBPaElUjqY/Wb3P97zw3tKp4yLD7zWLdLR U66TedhBXxNTw== Received: from st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com [17.58.63.166]) by st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1552C8023F; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:42:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from p00-mailws2-7ff47948d8-7rsl5 (st43p00im.dlb-asmtpoutvip.me.com [10.76.196.233]) by st43p00im-zteg10062001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7581C80117; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:42:01 +0000 (UTC) To: Eduardo Ochs From: Raj Divecha Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:42:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: iCloud MailClientcurrent MailServer2429B28.6954931b110c Message-id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Webmail-42--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Z0mAkdFwo-SRBToqsMBL46wt9R-amZGZ X-Proofpoint-GUID: Z0mAkdFwo-SRBToqsMBL46wt9R-amZGZ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2024-11-26_14,2024-11-26_01,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2411260182 X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Eduardo, I probably never came across that thread. But yeah, that person seems to be echoing my frustration. I could probably watch David Wilson's videos but I chose to read the Emacs docs and foll [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjd1977tech[at]icloud.com) 0.0 RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED RBL: ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. [17.58.63.166 listed in bl.score.senderscore.com] 0.0 RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED RBL: ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. [17.58.63.166 listed in sa-trusted.bondedsender.org] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [17.58.63.166 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [17.58.63.166 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 2.2 MALFORMED_FREEMAIL Bad headers on message from free email service X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) --Apple-Webmail-42--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Hi Eduardo, I probably never came across that thread. But yeah, that perso= n seems to be echoing my frustration. I could probably watch David Wilson'= s videos but I chose to read the Emacs docs and following the instruction = in there and use the extensions recommended in there.. I went that route b= ut was hitting road blocks after road block. I would have got through ever= y tiny detail if I had the time but ultimately I had to give up! Although,= I might soon try to do it again or follow David Wilson. But the point is = why not just make a user friendly interface? How can a new comer like VS C= ode come and grab the market and a powerful tool like Emacs can't? I wish = I had started with Emacs as my first editor. That way I would have been ab= le to stick with it for life! Transitioning from one tool/editor to anothe= r is also frustrating and that's why I wish I should have started with Ema= cs. Thanks, Raj On Nov 26, 2024, at 2:58 PM, Eduardo Ochs wrote: On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 14:59, Raj Divecha via Bug reports f= or GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors = wrote: I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bre= ad & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++= /Python, validating features of various ICs that my company manufactures a= nd I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but at the end o= f the day my bread & butter job takes priority over everything else. Just = out of curiosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there a document = I can review and get a feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how= many engineers do you think are needed to work on this and the different = expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python t= o customize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will hav= e to be supported simultaneously. Hi Raj, have you read this thread? https= ://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00018.html https://li= sts.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/threads.html#00018 Cheers, Ed= uardo Ochs --Apple-Webmail-42--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Webmail-86--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3 --Apple-Webmail-86--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8;
Hi Eduardo,

I probably never came a= cross that thread. But yeah, that person seems to be echoing my frustratio= n. I could probably watch David Wilson's videos but I chose to read the Em= acs docs and following the instruction in there and use the extensions rec= ommended in there.. I went that route but was hitting road blocks after ro= ad block. I would have got through every tiny detail if I had the time but= ultimately I had to give up! Although, I might soon try to do it again or= follow David Wilson. But the point is why not just make a user friendly i= nterface? How can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a = powerful tool like Emacs can't?

I wish I had = started with Emacs as my first editor. That way I would have been able to = stick with it for life! Transitioning from one tool/editor to another is a= lso frustrating and that's why I wish I should have started with Emacs.

Thanks,
Raj

On Nov 26, 2024, at 2:58 PM, Eduardo Och= s <eduardoochs@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 14:59, Raj Divecha via Bug repor= ts for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <b= ug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
wrote:

I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I a= m stuck with my bread
& butter job. I am a seasoned syst= ems engineer and mostly work on
C/C++/Python, validating fea= tures of various ICs that my company
manufactures and I know= if I want I can work on this non-trivial
change but at the = end of the day my bread & butter job takes
priority over= everything else.

Just out of curiosity, what= will it take to get this done? Is there
a document I can re= view and get a feel for the amount of work? And
approximatel= y, how many engineers do you think are needed to work on
thi= s and the different expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and
=
the users might need Python to customize their interface, thus, I
=
believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported
simultaneously.

Hi Raj,

have you read this thread?

--Apple-Webmail-86--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3-- --Apple-Webmail-42--62f4e92a-d71a-4812-aa68-b9307cd640b3-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 23:09:13 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2024 04:09:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57138 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG9MX-0004N7-5Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 23:09:13 -0500 Received: from mail-yw1-f174.google.com ([209.85.128.174]:49597) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tG9MU-0004Mx-TO for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 23:09:11 -0500 Received: by mail-yw1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6eeffdff41dso30042627b3.3 for <74488@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 20:09:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1732680490; x=1733285290; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bCoCt5Bot0T6No3u09GPmUW1mgHBaaPmAyBobzJgJEU=; b=eY452GzM84NTa7GFmCVctVCbvHgTzn2QSN26DmJrp4vnIzUHbWv4IDnk6PLpa1XdlL 0KCrXiKnbgPvY8HNedUobWEXaji7LBmrwvZH/um6doOOa5s0NShCFPWGSo+eLN++ltrj V37RY+AMVO9GViOgWvqdV/CRmW6MjalyESYk01NyuU9Vz6jCDVCFgxWCBqdwRJSlDcla pvagPgYBrFXvWHzZl/BWfrp85w65EpALljzTpxyTgllP2+Ayr4qYVFcBDMRaUkasy7wo FqEpzneR3sS8qtspHwxXOaitgJ94YgGNEQhAqLbYl9sYdklReLz1Zy9X4DP0jg7B1Wg/ 684w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1732680490; x=1733285290; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bCoCt5Bot0T6No3u09GPmUW1mgHBaaPmAyBobzJgJEU=; b=NhMkekPRyDVDcHwRDzgk9rasVqMPQ2z6dshB9q9dii91cjnonUBwNDOyUiz+2vdokt Ft0PF+jSFssbz6KuiVRSTyEeMcTPqRFmDBSEKmVvOtUmlzDSMHtoKxbv8AV04HHrsJBq WU7pgObTR18SeuAMJiisI+f3Ab9v0aaNLUmC1oapNSofOCJw662+bHaq8/SJjCSGMU2o tvEH7Syv5HRjxErHVYwnnH33TbaeoQuYy4LArfDbtz3tAELarnBZkkOLiP/SEPpH6y+d cArwykCvEisHJeZgioxPhNMFLfn8KrFuK1sT0tZrCH3CbKWezTfnqy8twDbhPG6imPDJ +w1g== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVTygG3xnpIAnuBXUIeIYQu5OZpmAM4pZF5MryqBRhcleSFuuYoZqVDSvschpEm5SWXNJDCrQ==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzcXMwQ2HY4KNNKlKM/pzNnJfjZ+NlnIS1kECy2JHCjH/2s3eui ralonhC/HD6auK4oG5a0t0noe7A6W8MhZt0gCxRJI8EZvsnt23UzqPHxT9oFNcVePFhnntrdRSR LiROYgzhNuJeEGKqao8di0Uy6a9E= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncucLtCruOETCPdQ9xr74fhviVIntI6xS1pWnvzY+DVydi8RT1vq6Gce0NQky60 ZeIUASmbjVWt7hVCNurkTFXtRkcps8TMn X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEjTr7P0zIoWhr9iyJmafRalBlRMgVOB2NL3qmoHlInHfnF92amdZdn/cMgdGaTEx0LhYhoaNf+MZ1DE+PzCtc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:9987:b0:6ee:491f:8b58 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6ef3728dbbcmr18916267b3.40.1732680490345; Tue, 26 Nov 2024 20:08:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eduardo Ochs Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:07:57 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs To: Raj Divecha Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 19:42, Raj Divecha wrote: > > But the point is why not just make a user friendly interface? How > can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a powerful > tool like Emacs can't? Hi Raj, Most people who write Emacs extensions do that in their spare time, and for fun - and writing for a target audience of users who know the basics of Lisp is much more fun that writing for users who don't know Lisp, who don't like Lisp, and who want an editor that is like VSCode... Cheers =(, Eduardo Ochs http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-elisp-intro.html -- They tried to fool a Black population By telling them Lisp-Lisp dead And I knows Lisp no dead From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 27 16:02:23 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2024 21:02:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34813 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tGPB0-000287-NB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 16:02:23 -0500 Received: from st43p00im-ztbu10063601.me.com ([17.58.63.174]:57682) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tGPAz-00027q-EN for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 16:02:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1732741336; bh=Po2CscQkSe+zhOvNnSI7F6fRRslspP2hhc0Sw/83ol8=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:Message-id:Content-Type:MIME-Version: x-icloud-hme; b=qxlJG1MtuZeK0KcGnium2gICLrwLMPoIM7tuO7lPOp8YJ+Ma4mLvP7dHZXdT2BhHQ 3CwakVDPrnZUlhYG4+bqjjchLfgKPs98cLhZQSYXcT58ofkAmZCHsxTTDHy2EMRRc0 9iS/VVJoY9unOYYhOcH5UOyxJdsZLKK3PQAyNW5kOXXmxiiSpX3QR2BMY6UJY/oLuQ Hsq6G54W3sbPXiGAorvpQ3vYwAO/tmcG1Prq7QT3XuFEtgbQnqwfAoxfwXQzBskNlq /DBx3mOPTbLZfON0K9drYY4Fi21ECD5H5wEV842L1pZp0OT0oW6w9ZL6XcJa1LznY9 X+nm0TESWrjoQ== Received: from st43p00im-ztbu10063601.me.com (st43p00im-ztbu10063601.me.com [17.58.63.174]) by st43p00im-ztbu10063601.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0D48C0730; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 21:02:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from p00-mailws2-7ff47948d8-b28n4 (st43p00im.dlb-asmtpoutvip.me.com [10.76.196.233]) by st43p00im-ztbu10063601.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC8E88C0635; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 21:02:11 +0000 (UTC) To: Eduardo Ochs From: Raj Divecha Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 21:02:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: iCloud MailClientcurrent MailServer2429B28.6954931b110c Message-id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Webmail-42--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ufaJcUfdq5hKuU1kqEIOAbbu4vjxWd2x X-Proofpoint-GUID: ufaJcUfdq5hKuU1kqEIOAbbu4vjxWd2x X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2024-11-27_10,2024-11-27_01,2024-11-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=893 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2411270163 X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Regarding Lisp & Python : I suggested Python as an alternative. No seasoned programmer is concerned about which programming language to use. Thus. Lisp only is also just fine. And, IMO, supporting Pyt [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED RBL: ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. 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[17.58.63.174 listed in bl.score.senderscore.com] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [17.58.63.174 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (rjd1977tech[at]icloud.com) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars 2.2 MALFORMED_FREEMAIL Bad headers on message from free email service X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) --Apple-Webmail-42--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Regarding Lisp & Python : I suggested Python as an alternative. No seasone= d programmer is concerned about which programming language to use. Thus. L= isp only is also just fine. And, IMO, supporting Python is probably not go= ing to be difficult because it would be a wrapper over the Lisp code. At t= he basic level there needs to be a well defined object model, which Emacs = already has and the same can be replicated in Python. Once done, a convert= er app will be needed to duplicate Lisp methods in to the Python modules. = These methods will simple execute the underlying Lisp code (somehow), thus= wrappers. This should provide python support. I could be wrong but it is = just an idea I could think of. "Most people who write Emacs extensions do = that in their spare time, and for fun" - I wasn't referring to extensions = but the core of Emacs. Oh well, I believe I have troubled you guys enough.= If possible, I will spend some time some day(s) and familiarize my self w= ith Emacs and maybe in the process create a simple step-by-step process to= get others started as well. Those n hour-long David Wilson videos only sc= are away people more than before they come by those videos! Richard Stallm= an's email was found in my junk folder but I found it never the less. Happ= y Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it and for the rest, keep having fun w= ith Emacs! --*-- END OF THIS THREAD --*-- On Nov 26, 2024, at 9:08 PM, Edu= ardo Ochs wrote: On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 19:42, Raj= Divecha wrote: But the point is why not just mak= e a user friendly interface? How can a new comer like VS Code come and gra= b the market and a powerful tool like Emacs can't? Hi Raj, Most people who= write Emacs extensions do that in their spare time, and for fun - and wri= ting for a target audience of users who know the basics of Lisp is much mo= re fun that writing for users who don't know Lisp, who don't like Lisp, an= d who want an editor that is like VSCode... Cheers =3D(, Eduardo Ochs http= ://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-elisp-intro.html -- They tried to fool a Bl= ack population By telling them Lisp-Lisp dead And I knows Lisp no dead --Apple-Webmail-42--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Webmail-86--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558 --Apple-Webmail-86--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8;
Regarding Lisp & Python: I suggested Python as a= n alternative. No seasoned programmer is concerned about which programming= language to use. Thus. Lisp only is also just fine. And, IMO, supporting = Python is probably not going to be difficult because it would be a wrapper= over the Lisp code. At the basic level there needs to be a well defined o= bject model, which Emacs already has and the same can be replicated in Pyt= hon. Once done, a converter app will be needed to duplicate Lisp methods i= n to the Python modules. These methods will simple execute the underlying = Lisp code (somehow), thus wrappers. This should provide python support. I = could be wrong but it is just an idea I could think of.
&nbs= p;
"Most people who write Emacs extensions do that in their = spare time, and for fun"
- I wasn't referring to extensions = but the core of Emacs.

Oh well, I believe I h= ave troubled you guys enough. If possible, I will spend some time some day= (s) and familiarize my self with Emacs and maybe in the process create a s= imple step-by-step process to get others started as well. Those n hour-lon= g David Wilson videos only scare away people more than before they come by= those videos!

Richard Stallman's email was f= ound in my junk folder but I found it never the less.
=

Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it = and for the rest, keep having fun with Emacs!

--*-- END OF THIS THREAD --*--

On Nov 26, 2024, at 9:08 PM, Eduardo Ochs <edu= ardoochs@gmail.com> wrote:


=
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 19:42, Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech@icloud= .com> wrote:

But= the point is why not just make a user friendly interface? How
can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a powerful
tool like Emacs can't?

Hi Raj,

Most people who write Emacs extens= ions do that in their spare time,
and for fun - and writing = for a target audience of users who know the
basics of Lisp i= s much more fun that writing for users who don't know
Lisp, = who don't like Lisp, and who want an editor that is like
VSC= ode...

Cheers =3D(,
Eduardo Och= s

--
They tried t= o fool a Black population
By telling them Lisp-Lisp dead
=
And I knows Lisp no dead



--Apple-Webmail-86--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558-- --Apple-Webmail-42--4b0114fb-63bc-461c-8dbe-ce954bcc7558-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 27 23:52:39 2024 Received: (at 74488) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2024 04:52:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35904 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tGWW7-0000ls-BS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51672) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1tGWW4-0000lc-VR for 74488@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tGWVz-000852-6B; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=SMscDAU87pPzZbIfv2q3A12TJ1DZUbQVmTexjnnt6NM=; b=oBkkSnE0bpjd g741pr9toHVoeIMelTL3obf6aUCQjF/4WAGu7SonCSEgvo3GdGebxgm++vb3UCeMHVzG2rOMAcC/L T1yc/DtLARQ/u4Jpg44sU/SL+0waIVN0zzvve5ZqrscbrvwaobWASB+4C8DsKbyjXfd+00FI4Oia/ A/SMnFQd6CmpBK6foq402mvOe39xRX0pX1kjRisRxI0HG0X2HllQvYEDcQLBrio2i5Wae17R7c8bo ADaK69v5jMx16B5hmdSSYLcR8COBPYmn/2gNrEsf147T+rUNhcp8zmIUUUhFR1qnMRqHZUm91k8dr 5qnIyzx20PlYSCUNIlAvpQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tGWVy-0002Zc-Fa; Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Raj Divecha In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:30 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 74488 Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We don't seek to make Emacs "modern" in the sense changing things to follow changing fashions. For instance, Lisp still has the advantages it always had. Even if somene offered to rewrite all our existing Lisp code into Python, we still prefer Lisp. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:10:03 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:24:13 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator