GNU bug report logs - #74488
Why not modernize Emacs

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Why not modernize Emacs 
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that the learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Thanks, Raj

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #8 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>, 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 22:57:31 -0500

tags 74488 + notabug
close 74488
thanks

Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable
> editor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just
> that the learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work
> out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult
> would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully
> capable? For example, while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I
> still can't use it as my developer IDE. I want some feature that will
> help me easily install a project explorer like extension. The project
> explorer could help create workspaces, project, help me navigate them
> with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I would like a
> LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports all this
> but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like opening it
> anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler
> interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when
> needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing
> something? Thanks, Raj

Thanks for sharing your ideas about how to improve Emacs.

We always aim for at least feature parity with typical IDEs, and in many
cases we actually have a much stronger set of features than they do.
But it is true that the Emacs interface is fundamentally different from
that of VSCode.  It's challenging to provide a different user interface
along the lines that you suggest, while also providing all the features
that we do.

However, this bug list is not really appropriate or intended for very
wide-ranging discussions about what Emacs could look like in the future.
It is intended for much more focused discussions about specific and
reproducible bugs in Emacs, and narrowly scoped feature requests.  For
that reason, I will close this bug report now.

I believe you might have more success discussing these and other similar
ideas in forums such as the Emacs Reddit page or on IRC.  Thanks.

Message #15 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:59:09 +0200

severity 74488 wishlist
thanks

> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC)
> From:  Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
> 
> Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that the learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Thanks, Raj

The simple answer to your questions is "because no one has yet
proposed code changes to implement those features."

Emacs is developed by a loosely-coupled group of volunteers, each one
of whom contributes changes in the areas that are of interest to
him/her and match their domains of expertise.  We acknowledge the need
and the advantages of having the advanced IDE-related features work
out of the box, but have no way of assigning someone to the job of
actually doing that non-trivial job.  It is non-trivial because
different users of Emacs have different interests and needs (e.g.,
develop in vastly different programming languages), and setting up the
tools we have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task.
In addition, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers
and services, so it is much more difficult for us to provide OOTB
configuration for features that rely on external programs and servers.

But if and when someone comes with code that does one of these jobs,
we embrace that very quickly.  Examples include Tree-Sitter based
major modes, LSP support via Eglot, etc.  Thus, volunteers are welcome
to contribute additional features that will make Emacs a better IDE,
and ease the learning curve for newcomers.

Thank you for your interest in Emacs.

Message #20 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:37:34 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > However, this bug list is not really appropriate or intended for very
  > wide-ranging discussions about what Emacs could look like in the future.
  > It is intended for much more focused discussions about specific and
  > reproducible bugs in Emacs, and narrowly scoped feature requests.

We do have a list for feature discussions: emacs-devel <at> gnu.org.
that is the place to bring up ideas for features.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #23 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes priority over everything else. Just out of curiosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to customize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported simultaneously. On Nov 22, 2024, at 11:59 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote: severity 74488 wishlist thanks Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that the learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Thanks, Raj The simple answer to your questions is "because no one has yet proposed code changes to implement those features." Emacs is developed by a loosely-coupled group of volunteers, each one of whom contributes changes in the areas that are of interest to him/her and match their domains of expertise. We acknowledge the need and the advantages of having the advanced IDE-related features work out of the box, but have no way of assigning someone to the job of actually doing that non-trivial job. It is non-trivial because different users of Emacs have different interests and needs (e.g., develop in vastly different programming languages), and setting up the tools we have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task. In addition, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers and services, so it is much more difficult for us to provide OOTB configuration for features that rely on external programs and servers. But if and when someone comes with code that does one of these jobs, we embrace that very quickly. Examples include Tree-Sitter based major modes, LSP support via Eglot, etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome to contribute additional features that will make Emacs a better IDE, and ease the learning curve for newcomers. Thank you for your interest in Emacs.

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #26 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 20:59:47 +0200

> Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread
> & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on
> C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company
> manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial
> change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes
> priority over everything else. Just out of curiosity, what will it
> take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a
> feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers
> do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertise
> required?

That depends on what is the scope of the work.  This is not a single
monolith job that cannot be subdivided into smaller ones.  So the
first step towards answering your questions is to identify those
smaller parts and steps, and then prioritize them.  When that is
done, we could try estimating the effort required for the most
important parts.

> LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to
> customize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will
> have to be supported simultaneously.

That just makes the bar higher, IMO.  It is easy to extend Emacs by
writing Lisp programs; doing that in Python is currently impossible,
and will need a non-trivial development of the required
infrastructure.

Message #29 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 18:58:37 -0300

On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 14:59, Raj Divecha via Bug reports for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
wrote:
>
> I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread
> & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on
> C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company
> manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial
> change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes
> priority over everything else.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there
> a document I can review and get a feel for the amount of work? And
> approximately, how many engineers do you think are needed to work on
> this and the different expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and
> the users might need Python to customize their interface, thus, I
> believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported
> simultaneously.

Hi Raj,

have you read this thread?

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00018.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/threads.html#00018

  Cheers,
    Eduardo Ochs

Message #32 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
To: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:42:01 +0000 (UTC)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi Eduardo, I probably never came across that thread. But yeah, that person seems to be echoing my frustration. I could probably watch David Wilson's videos but I chose to read the Emacs docs and following the instruction in there and use the extensions recommended in there.. I went that route but was hitting road blocks after road block. I would have got through every tiny detail if I had the time but ultimately I had to give up! Although, I might soon try to do it again or follow David Wilson. But the point is why not just make a user friendly interface? How can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a powerful tool like Emacs can't? I wish I had started with Emacs as my first editor. That way I would have been able to stick with it for life! Transitioning from one tool/editor to another is also frustrating and that's why I wish I should have started with Emacs. Thanks, Raj On Nov 26, 2024, at 2:58 PM, Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 at 14:59, Raj Divecha via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> wrote: I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company manufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but at the end of the day my bread & butter job takes priority over everything else. Just out of curiosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertise required? LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to customize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported simultaneously. Hi Raj, have you read this thread? https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/msg00018.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2024-10/threads.html#00018 Cheers, Eduardo Ochs

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #35 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 01:07:57 -0300

On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 19:42, Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com> wrote:
>
> But the point is why not just make a user friendly interface? How
> can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a powerful
> tool like Emacs can't?

Hi Raj,

Most people who write Emacs extensions do that in their spare time,
and for fun - and writing for a target audience of users who know the
basics of Lisp is much more fun that writing for users who don't know
Lisp, who don't like Lisp, and who want an editor that is like
VSCode...

  Cheers =(,
    Eduardo Ochs
    http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-elisp-intro.html

--
They tried to fool a Black population
By telling them Lisp-Lisp dead
And I knows Lisp no dead

Message #38 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
To: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 21:02:11 +0000 (UTC)

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Regarding Lisp & Python : I suggested Python as an alternative. No seasoned programmer is concerned about which programming language to use. Thus. Lisp only is also just fine. And, IMO, supporting Python is probably not going to be difficult because it would be a wrapper over the Lisp code. At the basic level there needs to be a well defined object model, which Emacs already has and the same can be replicated in Python. Once done, a converter app will be needed to duplicate Lisp methods in to the Python modules. These methods will simple execute the underlying Lisp code (somehow), thus wrappers. This should provide python support. I could be wrong but it is just an idea I could think of. "Most people who write Emacs extensions do that in their spare time, and for fun" - I wasn't referring to extensions but the core of Emacs. Oh well, I believe I have troubled you guys enough. If possible, I will spend some time some day(s) and familiarize my self with Emacs and maybe in the process create a simple step-by-step process to get others started as well. Those n hour-long David Wilson videos only scare away people more than before they come by those videos! Richard Stallman's email was found in my junk folder but I found it never the less. Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it and for the rest, keep having fun with Emacs! --*-- END OF THIS THREAD --*-- On Nov 26, 2024, at 9:08 PM, Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 at 19:42, Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com> wrote: But the point is why not just make a user friendly interface? How can a new comer like VS Code come and grab the market and a powerful tool like Emacs can't? Hi Raj, Most people who write Emacs extensions do that in their spare time, and for fun - and writing for a target audience of users who know the basics of Lisp is much more fun that writing for users who don't know Lisp, who don't like Lisp, and who want an editor that is like VSCode... Cheers =(, Eduardo Ochs http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-elisp-intro.html -- They tried to fool a Black population By telling them Lisp-Lisp dead And I knows Lisp no dead

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #41 received at 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Raj Divecha <rjd1977tech <at> icloud.com>
Cc: 74488 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2024 23:52:30 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

We don't seek to make Emacs "modern" in the sense changing things to
follow changing fashions.  For instance, Lisp still has the advantages
it always had.  Even if somene offered to rewrite all our existing
Lisp code into Python, we still prefer Lisp.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

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