From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 12 11:25:09 2010 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2010 16:25:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwR2-0006ku-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:25:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwR1-0006kp-3I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:25:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwVe-0005mP-WE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:56 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:60031) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwVe-0005mL-U8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:54 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52822 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PGwVd-0003MY-TS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwVc-0005lS-6y for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:53 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:33401) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwVb-0005l3-Vi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:52 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id oACGTnI1003363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:29:50 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id oACGTmbp023128 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:29:48 GMT Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 774379571289579360; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:20 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.63) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:20 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcuChsC0NhrzFxqESQaPO/u7cwaloA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) emacs -Q In the Elisp manual, you should be able to do `i restricted-sexp RET' to go to the section that explains that defcustom type construct. Likewise for the other type constructs. This should be done at least for those constructs whose names are unambiguously type constructs (e.g. `choice', `radio, and `coding-system', but perhaps not `sexp', `cons', and `vector'). This applies also to keywords such as :match-alternatives. In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2010-11-09 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 12 11:58:57 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2010 16:58:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwxl-0007Fe-Ne for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:58:57 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGwxk-0007FZ-1k for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:58:56 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LBS007007789N00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:03:09 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.249.126]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LBS006HM7D5I7A0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:03:09 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:03:10 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83hbfmeapd.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:18 -0800 > Cc: > > In the Elisp manual, you should be able to do `i restricted-sexp RET' to > go to the section that explains that defcustom type construct. Likewise > for the other type constructs. Such indexing is not useful, IMO. If you already know that you are looking for restricted-sexp, you can use `s restricted-sexp RET'. With such a specialized string, chances that you will get too many false hits are nil. Alternatively, go to the chapter and look through its sections. Indexing is mainly for readers who do NOT know what they are after. It would be much more useful if you (or someone else) could come up with some phrase that could be on the reader's mind when she is after these features. Currently, the section where they are documented has only one index entry: "composite types (customization)". Suggestions for more are most welcome. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 12 13:27:56 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2010 18:27:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGyLr-0007ud-T1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:27:56 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGyLq-0007uY-Gv for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:27:55 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id oACIWf9L010327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:32:43 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id oACAIL9t005167; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:32:40 GMT Received: from abhmt008.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 774761071289586724; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:32:04 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.63) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:32:03 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <83hbfmeapd.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:32:02 -0800 Message-ID: <79A51A4503124C6EA407F7CF182ABEBC@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83hbfmeapd.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AcuCi45SfdJb44ToSLWTT0hjvy6IPAAAx55w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > > In the Elisp manual, you should be able to do `i > > restricted-sexp RET' to go to the section that explains > > that defcustom type construct. Likewise > > for the other type constructs. > > Such indexing is not useful, IMO. Well you are wrong. ;-) Going directly to a :type construct entry such as `choice' or `restricted-sexp' is no different from going directly to a function entry such as `cons' or `fceiling', or a variable entry such as `obarray' or `split-string-default-separators'. Indexing of such distinguished names is important whether the name is commonly or rarely used in the manual. It gives you direct lookup. Obviously, if a term is commonly used, then index lookup gives a greater advantage over brute search than if the term is rarely used. But the criterion for indexing a term is whether it is a distinguised name (or it relates to an important concept). The criterion is not the frequency with which it appears in the manual. In a manual that serves as a reference (and the Elisp manual does that, even though it also provides some user-guide features), the distinguished names it documents should be indexed. In Emacs Lisp, this includes constants such as keywords and other defcustom constructs that are described in the manual. > If you already know that you are looking for restricted-sexp, > you can use `s restricted-sexp RET'. And if you already know that you are looking for `fceiling' you can use `s fceiling'. So what? Searching through a manual is no substitute for indexing. That is just a cop-out - let them eat cake. Predefined names, whether of functions, variables, keymap constructs, font-lock constructs, or defcustom constructs, should be indexed. There is no substitute for being able to go directly to the description of the `choice' defcustom entry. Try searching for `choice' and see how long it takes you to get to the right node. G'head, try it. > With such a specialized string, chances that you will get too many > false hits are nil. Alternatively, go to the chapter and look through > its sections. > > Indexing is mainly for readers who do NOT know what they are after. Nonsense - nothing could be more backward. Following that logic we should remove the key, option, command, and variable indexes from the Emacs manual, and we should remove the function index entries from the Elisp manual. If you know you are after function `cons' or `eq' then just search the manual for it - why should we index it? Riiight. If you know you are after the description of function `eq' then you _should_ be able to use `i eq RET' to get there directly. And, thank goodness, you can. The fact that something is in the index recognizes and advertizes it as a distinguished name (or as an important concept) that is documented in the manual. These constructs are distinguished names in Elisp, and they are documented in the manual. They deserve to be indexed. Also, being able to complete your input against index entries is a significant aid. This is all the more important with non-trivial (i.e., not just prefix) completion (e.g. substring/regexp completion, partial completion). Search is simply no substitute for index access. > It would be much more useful if you (or someone else) could come up > with some phrase that could be on the reader's mind when she is after > these features. Currently, the section where they are documented has > only one index entry: "composite types (customization)". Suggestions > for more are most welcome. I've made plenty of suggestions regarding index access to the defcustom sections. The most important one is to enable indexing of keywords such as `:type' (including the colon). You rejected that as an implementation impossibility, so users have to settle for matching workaround entries such as `type, defcustom keyword'. If you really want to improve index access to sections about the defcustom constructs, then please work on figuring out how to index keywords (including the `:'). Keywords are important distinguished words in Emacs Lisp, hence the name "keyword". This indexing suggestion applies not only to defcustom keywords but also to all the others that are documented. If you want to see how important keywords are in the Elisp manual, just start searching from the beginning using `C-M-s :[a-z]'. I would also suggest that we have separate indexes for the Elisp manual, just as we have for the Emacs manual: keywords, variables, commands, other functions, etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 13 02:42:27 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2010 07:42:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHAkk-00064i-Vi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 02:42:27 -0500 Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com ([74.125.82.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHAki-00064d-KD for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 02:42:25 -0500 Received: by wyb29 with SMTP id 29so749979wyb.3 for <7385@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:47:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.20.66 with SMTP id o44mr2921978weo.59.1289634434376; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.70.193 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:47:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 02:47:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Tts9STAAHzJT4Ao9UlJBXZndYKU Message-ID: Subject: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs From: MON KEY To: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) >> Indexing is mainly for readers who do NOT know what they are after. > It would be much more useful if you (or someone else) could come up > with some phrase that could be on the reader's mind when she is after > these features. Currently, the section where they are documented has > only one index entry: "composite types (customization)". Suggestions > for more are most welcome. There can not be just _one_ phrase. Nor can there be an index for every word in the manual. What is needed is a separate "site map" -- a hyper-manual, a kind of conceptual topology... Enter Baudrillard: Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: A hyperreal. The territory no longer precedes the map, nor does it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - that engenders the territory. "Simulacra & Simulation" 1994, p. 1 Witness `mon-help-*-blub' (of which these are legion): (documentation 'mon-help-custom-keywords) mon-help-custom-keywords is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `mon-doc-help-utils.el'. (mon-help-custom-keywords &optional insertp intrp) Keywords used with defcustom, degroup, customize facilities. ;; :CUSTOM-COMMON-KEYWORDS :link =C2=A6 (custom-manual "(info-node)Section") =C2=A6 (info-link "(info-node)Section") =C2=A6 (url-link ) =C2=A6 (emacs-commentary-link ) =C2=A6 (emacs-library-link ) =C2=A6 (file-link ) =C2=A6 (function-link ) =C2=A6 (file-link ) =C2=A6 (variable-link ) =C2=A6 (custom-group-link ) :tag :group :load :require :version :prefix ; :NOTE `defgroup' only :package-version ( . ) ;; :DEFCUSTOM-KEYWORDS :options :set :get :risky :safe :set-after :intialize =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-set' =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-default' =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-reset' =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-changed' =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-safe-set' =C2=A6 `custom-initialize-safe-default' ;; :CUSTOM-TYPES-SIMPLE :type =C2=A6 sexp
=C2=A6 integer =C2=A6 number =C2=A6 float =C2=A6 symbol =C2=A6 string =C2=A6 regexp =C2=A6 character =C2=A6 file =C2=A6 directory =C2=A6 hook =C2=A6 alist =C2=A6 plist =C2=A6 function =C2=A6 variable =C2=A6 face =C2=A6 boolean =C2=A6 coding-system =C2=A6 color | ;; :CUSTOM-TYPES-CONSTRUCTORS list group vector radio choice const other function-item cons ( ) ;; :CUTSOM-USAGE An alist of conses uses this form: :type '(alist :key-type integer :value-type string) An alist that is not a cons uses one of the forms: :type '(repeat (group integer string)) :type '(repeat (list integer string)) To link to a URL do: :link '(url-link :tag "A search-engine" "http://www.google.com") To link to a file do: :link '(file-link :tag "an interesting file" "~/.emacs") To link to an existing file of emacs lisp source code do: :link '(emacs-library-link "subr.el") :SEE info node `(elisp)Common Keywords' :SEE info node `(elisp)Customization Types' :SEE-ALSO `mon-help-widgets', `mon-help-easy-menu', `mon-help-plist-functio= ns', `mon-help-color-chart', `mon-help-key-functions', `mon-help-package-keyword= s', `mon-help-faces', `mon-help-faces-basic', `mon-help-faces-themes', `mon-help-eieio-defclass'. =E2=96=BA=E2=96=BA=E2=96=BA Such handlists exist because I routinely can't find what I am looking for in the manual. It is impossible to keep all of _Emacs_ top of mind. Users should not be expected to know what they do not know they don't know. --- /s_P\ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 13 03:02:16 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2010 08:02:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHB3w-0006CC-0L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:02:16 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHB3s-0006C6-M7 for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:02:14 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LBT00700CEQPH00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:07:02 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.249.126]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LBT00728D79QK10@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:06:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:06:51 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: MON KEY Message-id: <83eiapejfo.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 02:47:14 -0500 > From: MON KEY > Cc: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii > > >> Indexing is mainly for readers who do NOT know what they are after. > > > It would be much more useful if you (or someone else) could come up > > with some phrase that could be on the reader's mind when she is after > > these features. Currently, the section where they are documented has > > only one index entry: "composite types (customization)". Suggestions > > for more are most welcome. > > There can not be just _one_ phrase. Right, I meant "phrases", of course. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 13 03:04:39 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2010 08:04:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHB6F-0006DA-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:04:39 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHB6D-0006D5-1f for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:04:37 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LBT00D00D1IHV00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:09:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.249.126]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LBT00DGUDB9AZ50@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:09:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:09:16 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: MON KEY Message-id: <83d3q9ejbn.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 02:47:14 -0500 > From: MON KEY > Cc: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii > > Such handlists exist because I routinely can't find what I am looking > for in the manual. Please report every one of them as a documentation bug. > Users should not be expected to know what they do not know they don't know. Of course not. That's the main reason for indexing. If you cannot find something using appropriate phrases, it's a sign that the indexing needs to be improved. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 13 03:34:31 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2010 08:34:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHBZ9-00078f-F8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:34:31 -0500 Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com ([74.125.82.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHBZ7-00078a-D2 for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:34:29 -0500 Received: by wyb29 with SMTP id 29so773838wyb.3 for <7385@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:39:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.71.66 with SMTP id q44mr2957955wed.44.1289637559458; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.70.193 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:39:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83d3q9ejbn.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83d3q9ejbn.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:39:19 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DPEKebf_N16PQD9qsMns4NvfnoE Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs From: MON KEY To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 3:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Such handlists exist because I routinely can't find what I am looking >> for in the manual. > > Please report every one of them as a documentation bug. > I prob. should have qualified the above. To be clear, what I meant to communicate was this: I routinely have trouble knowing what to look for and where to do it when I can't immediately find something in the manuals. Indeed, FTMP the manuals _do_ provide the information one requires. It just isn't always easily at hand. I don't think this constitutes a bug. Do you? -- /s_P\ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 13 08:53:54 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2010 13:53:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHGYE-0001Vz-J8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:53:54 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PHGYC-0001Vo-0h for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:53:53 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LBT00G00TC7HD00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:57:24 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.249.126]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LBT00GIKTFK7N40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:57:21 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:57:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: MON KEY Message-id: <838w0xe37d.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83d3q9ejbn.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 03:39:19 -0500 > From: MON KEY > Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams > > On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 3:09 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> Such handlists exist because I routinely can't find what I am looking > >> for in the manual. > > > > Please report every one of them as a documentation bug. > > > > I prob. should have qualified the above. > To be clear, what I meant to communicate was this: > > I routinely have trouble knowing what to look for and where to do it > when I can't immediately find something in the manuals. > > Indeed, FTMP the manuals _do_ provide the information one requires. > It just isn't always easily at hand. > > I don't think this constitutes a bug. Do you? It could be. Here's how to know: Whenever you are looking for some issue, think about a word or a phrase of several words, which would (in your opinion) be appropriate as index entries, or parts of index entries, for that issue. Then try these words/phrases with the `i' command. If they don't get you to the section of the manual where the issue is described, submit a docs bug report and be sure to mention the phrases you used to search. TIA From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 15 17:18:31 2010 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2010 22:18:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PI7Ne-0004Jb-Uz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:18:31 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PI7Nd-0004JS-Ie for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:18:30 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArQHABdC4UxFpY76/2dsb2JhbAChXX1ywQqFSgSEWo1f X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.59,202,1288584000"; d="scan'208";a="82628057" Received: from 69-165-142-250.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.165.142.250]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 15 Nov 2010 17:23:26 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7CAD466312; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:08:26 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:08:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:18 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > In the Elisp manual, you should be able to do `i restricted-sexp RET' to > go to the section that explains that defcustom type construct. Likewise > for the other type constructs. > This should be done at least for those constructs whose names are > unambiguously type constructs (e.g. `choice', `radio, and > `coding-system', but perhaps not `sexp', `cons', and `vector'). > This applies also to keywords such as :match-alternatives. That would make sense, indeed. Same for :keywords (e.g. those used in menu-item). It would probably need to be a new index, tho. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 27 18:53:35 2016 Received: (at 7385) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2016 22:53:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50914 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKt-0000Ur-ND for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:53:35 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:51695) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKr-0000Ud-8r for 7385@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:53:33 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKm-0004u4-Ki; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:53:30 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#7385: 24.0.50; Please index defcustom type constructs References: Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:53:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:29:18 -0800") Message-ID: <87h9emr7dk.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7385 Cc: 7385@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: > In the Elisp manual, you should be able to do `i restricted-sexp RET' to > go to the section that explains that defcustom type construct. Likewise > for the other type constructs. > > This should be done at least for those constructs whose names are > unambiguously type constructs (e.g. `choice', `radio, and > `coding-system', but perhaps not `sexp', `cons', and `vector'). > This applies also to keywords such as :match-alternatives. I've now added concept index entries to the first three types. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 27 18:53:38 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2016 22:53:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKv-0000V2-TK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:53:38 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:51702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKt-0000Uk-0x for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:53:35 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avYKq-0004uA-S1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:53:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 00:53:32 +0200 Message-Id: <87fuu6r7df.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #7385 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) tags 7385 fixed close 7385 25.2 From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:10:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 03 21:49:42 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2016 02:49:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51761 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cDMs2-0004Js-AJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2016 21:49:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56131) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cDMrz-0004JW-G1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2016 21:49:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cDMrs-0001yx-95 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2016 21:49:34 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:53276) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cDMrs-0001yr-52 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Dec 2016 21:49:32 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1cDMrr-0005b2-Kh; Sat, 03 Dec 2016 21:49:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <22595.33851.293095.70553@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 21:49:31 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Clean up predictable issues due to Emacs version number change X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org 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notfixed 23883 25.2 unarchive 23914 fixed 23914 26.1 notfixed 23914 25.2 unarchive 23949 fixed 23949 26.1 notfixed 23949 25.2 unarchive 23998 fixed 23998 26.1 notfixed 23998 25.2 unarchive 24122 fixed 24122 26.1 notfixed 24122 25.2 unarchive 24133 fixed 24133 26.1 notfixed 24133 25.2 unarchive 24166 fixed 24166 26.1 notfixed 24166 25.2 unarchive 24257 fixed 24257 26.1 notfixed 24257 25.2 unarchive 24308 fixed 24308 26.1 notfixed 24308 25.2 unarchive 24432 fixed 24432 26.1 notfixed 24432 25.2 From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:10:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 12:24:24 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator