GNU bug report logs - #73743
Better prompts for Auto-save dialog

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 15:09:50 +0800

I notice on the dialog of emacs -nw, after lots of ^G's
Auto-save? (y or n) y
Auto-save done
[Then nothing happens, and we need to hit RET to see the next question:]
Abort (and dump core)? (y or n) n

Message #8 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 12:16:39 +0300

> From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 15:09:50 +0800
> 
> I notice on the dialog of emacs -nw, after lots of ^G's
> Auto-save? (y or n) y
> Auto-save done
> [Then nothing happens, and we need to hit RET to see the next question:]
> Abort (and dump core)? (y or n) n

And this is bad because..?

This is emergency exit procedure, where the last thing we need is to
rush things and messages past the user, who is usually panicking and
under stress at this point.

Message #13 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 23:02:59 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I notice on the dialog of emacs -nw, after lots of ^G's
  > > Auto-save? (y or n) y
  > > Auto-save done

That much is normal, but

  > > [Then nothing happens, and we need to hit RET to see the next question:]

the failure to move on to the next question seems like a bug.
Why is it waiting for the user to type RET?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #16 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 08:39:23 +0300

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: jidanni <at> jidanni.org, 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 23:02:59 -0400
> 
>   > > I notice on the dialog of emacs -nw, after lots of ^G's
>   > > Auto-save? (y or n) y
>   > > Auto-save done
> 
> That much is normal, but
> 
>   > > [Then nothing happens, and we need to hit RET to see the next question:]
> 
> the failure to move on to the next question seems like a bug.
> Why is it waiting for the user to type RET?

It doesn't.  It calls read_stdin, which reads 1 byte.

Message #19 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 22:29:59 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > > I notice on the dialog of emacs -nw, after lots of ^G's
  > >   > > Auto-save? (y or n) y
  > >   > > Auto-save done
  > > 
  > > That much is normal, but
  > > 
  > >   > > [Then nothing happens, and we need to hit RET to see the next question:]
  > > 
  > > the failure to move on to the next question seems like a bug.
  > > Why is it waiting for the user to type RET?

  > It doesn't.  It calls read_stdin, which reads 1 byte.

We may be miscommunicating.
After "Auto-save done", it should ask the next question, right?
Why does it instead try to read a character at that point
before asking another question?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #22 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:11:37 +0300

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2024 22:29:59 -0400
> 
>   > > the failure to move on to the next question seems like a bug.
>   > > Why is it waiting for the user to type RET?
> 
>   > It doesn't.  It calls read_stdin, which reads 1 byte.
> 
> We may be miscommunicating.
> After "Auto-save done", it should ask the next question, right?
> Why does it instead try to read a character at that point
> before asking another question?

Probably because it expects the user to type 'y RET', not just 'y'.
My guess is that we want the user to consciously type the response,
not just touch some random key and then "oops".

But I can only guess the reason; you are the best person to know why,
since you wrote that code back in 1992 or before, when keyboard.c was
first added to the Emacs version control.  Here's how that code looked
back then:

      printf ("Auto-save? (y or n) ");
      fflush (stdout);
      if (((c = getchar ()) & ~040) == 'Y')
        Fdo_auto_save (Qnil, Qnil);
      while (c != '\n') c = getchar ();
#ifdef VMS
      printf ("Abort (and enter debugger)? (y or n) ");
#else /* not VMS */
      printf ("Abort (and dump core)? (y or n) ");
#endif /* not VMS */
      fflush (stdout);
      if (((c = getchar ()) & ~040) == 'Y')
        abort ();
      while (c != '\n') c = getchar ();
      printf ("Continuing...\n");
      fflush (stdout);
      init_sys_modes ();

As you see, both questions expect 'y RET' or 'n RET' as user response.

Message #25 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 05:37:29 +0800

I'm here to let everybody know,
that for users of emacs -nw,
this bug will face them several times a day.
Why?
Because
^G^G^G^G^G^G...
is right next to
^F^F^F^F^F^F...
In other words, one slightly misplaced finger when doing
the super common action of holding down ^F to do several
forward-char's.

In fact it happened again as I was typing this message.

Anyway, please change the prompt wording

Auto-save? (y or n)
Abort (and dump core)? (y or n)

to say instead

Auto-save? (y RET or [n] RET)
Abort (and dump core)? (y RET or [n] RET)

That way users can also see that the n is optional all along in the
first place!

Message #28 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 09:50:04 +0300

> From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Cc: rms <at> gnu.org,  73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 05:37:29 +0800
> 
> I'm here to let everybody know,
> that for users of emacs -nw,
> this bug will face them several times a day.
> Why?
> Because
> ^G^G^G^G^G^G...
> is right next to
> ^F^F^F^F^F^F...

No one else complained in all the years this feature existed, so I
think you greatly exaggerate the probability of this happening in
reality.  My guess is that this is simply yet another attempt to
convince that you have uncovered a grave problem, which is patently
false.

> Anyway, please change the prompt wording
> 
> Auto-save? (y or n)
> Abort (and dump core)? (y or n)
> 
> to say instead
> 
> Auto-save? (y RET or [n] RET)
> Abort (and dump core)? (y RET or [n] RET)

We never do anything like that in any other questions we ask the user,
so I see no reason to make this case an exception (and risk confusing
the user even more).

Message #31 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, control <at> debbigs.gnu.org, 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 16:22:40 +0800

retitle 73743 Better prompts for Auto-save dialog
thanks
>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
EZ> No one else complained in all the years

Ah, that is because for the last few months I've been extensively
testing emacs -nw, whereas other users might not use it any more.

EZ> We never do anything like that in any other questions we ask the user,
EZ> so I see no reason to make this case an exception (and risk confusing
EZ> the user even more).

That is because the other questions are asked within emacs,
but these questions are asked within the shell. Thus you need to mention RET.

Also users feel bad that yes they can just hit RET,
but aren't told it doing so equals y vs. n.

Currently the question looks like there are only two choices,
y or n
and if the user doesn't pick one then they will just be asked again,
which is not true.

Message #36 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 00:54:08 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > to say instead

  > Auto-save? (y RET or [n] RET)
  > Abort (and dump core)? (y RET or [n] RET)

It seems good to me.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #39 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Auto-save dialog needs extra RET
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 00:54:10 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > But I can only guess the reason; you are the best person to know why,
  > since you wrote that code back in 1992 or before, when keyboard.c was
  > first added to the Emacs version control.

You are right.

Also, perhaps the one-key-at-a-time ipuut that Emacs normally uses
can't be used at those itmes.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #42 received at 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Subject: Re: bug#73743: Better prompts for Auto-save dialog
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:36:14 -0800

tags 73743 + wontfix
close 73743
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>> Cc: rms <at> gnu.org,  73743 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 05:37:29 +0800
>>
>> I'm here to let everybody know,
>> that for users of emacs -nw,
>> this bug will face them several times a day.
>> Why?
>> Because
>> ^G^G^G^G^G^G...
>> is right next to
>> ^F^F^F^F^F^F...
>
> No one else complained in all the years this feature existed, so I
> think you greatly exaggerate the probability of this happening in
> reality.  My guess is that this is simply yet another attempt to
> convince that you have uncovered a grave problem, which is patently
> false.
>
>> Anyway, please change the prompt wording
>>
>> Auto-save? (y or n)
>> Abort (and dump core)? (y or n)
>>
>> to say instead
>>
>> Auto-save? (y RET or [n] RET)
>> Abort (and dump core)? (y RET or [n] RET)
>
> We never do anything like that in any other questions we ask the user,
> so I see no reason to make this case an exception (and risk confusing
> the user even more).

Agreed.  I think this is a wontfix, sorry.

I'm therefore closing this bug report.

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