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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Neither the doc string nor the Elisp manual (node File Attributes) says what is meant by a file being "newer" than another. A guess is that this is about last file modification time, but one could think it's about file creation time etc. Please clarify the meaning. In GNU Emacs 29.4 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2024-07-05 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19045.4894) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-sqlite3 --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 08 14:20:30 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2024 18:20:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54390 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syEow-0006Ed-MY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 14:20:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syEou-0006EM-Qj; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 14:20:30 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syEof-0007Qk-Lw; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 14:20:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=42Bq9LRgtCi5apof89FkmGnnuiIIKDYH2TNJSAQSZDM=; b=kdK/roQSCznk RZXjETB+/Fjq+cMNRmzUw5CJwnwtQ91z+ab+joHtkv4xXWmvwVBsVo9pL+zF12ySFaVXi24nh9TOd ydUm4KuijOvo+0SHAPek4wFJNKGVw8LUNXj1GfrNNoA0618ZSwZvpP9TiabnReek4Yii8oIDxiUEV OfcrTSmT8qvdPmp1HCFqeIYMWdMwSEv9UylSORz0O0OQosON4f5X+FgDCn5vKjw3nZhrbro9x6jFx /seg/mRUT/+3dbvUt46fMAy9No9mSwqIDS9GmWtwajAFxk44P/LPg2WuuDRfIYUL3SzdLLHjdfqEW SqrNqEWL0QmxakZpWRxibA==; Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 21:20:09 +0300 Message-Id: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 73709 notabug wontfix close 73709 thanks > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 17:56:44 +0000 > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > Neither the doc string nor the Elisp manual (node File Attributes) says > what is meant by a file being "newer" than another. A guess is that > this is about last file modification time, but one could think it's > about file creation time etc. > > Please clarify the meaning. "Newer" means newer, in its literal meaning. How this translates into the file's attributes (if that is not obvious) is implementation details. There's no need to and no sense in "clarifying" in our documentation the meaning of words which are used literally. Closing. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3ddcdf9c-a1b0-4201-a1a6-08dce7c8a848 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Oct 2024 18:40:18.2279 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: XJz2074SLYVbA983vFZhhmsPLr9dVgtnYJQmyDozsYjS4OSR2FfJIhVFKdbL1leZiAKfVJ8Ww1FQTfJ2pEQDSw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH0PR10MB5177 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1051,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.62.30 definitions=2024-10-08_17,2024-10-08_01,2024-09-30_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=650 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2409260000 definitions=main-2410080120 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Fuz40qt3h7-EPvlwuexwohPU2SSrcHvZ X-Proofpoint-GUID: Fuz40qt3h7-EPvlwuexwohPU2SSrcHvZ X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > tags 73709 notabug wontfix > close 73709 > thanks >=20 > > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 17:56:44 +0000 > > From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > > > Neither the doc string nor the Elisp manual (node File Attributes) says > > what is meant by a file being "newer" than another. A guess is that > > this is about last file modification time, but one could think it's > > about file creation time etc. > > > > Please clarify the meaning. >=20 > "Newer" means newer, in its literal meaning. How this translates into > the file's attributes (if that is not obvious) is implementation > details. >=20 > There's no need to and no sense in "clarifying" in our documentation > the meaning of words which are used literally. >=20 > Closing. It's not about any implementation details. It's about what's meant here by "newer". And the answer is that it's about the recentness of the last modification. What's newer? That's the question. Assuming a "literal" meaning of "newer" doesn't help at all. What kind of newness? Check a thesaurus for "newer"/"new". E.g.: "Having just (or relatively recently) come=A0into =A0being or been made or acquired or discovered" "Recently created or having started to exist recently" That's about _creation_, not modification. You have a 2024 Ferrari, just out of the showroom - never been touched. I have a 1998 Toyota, with recent modifications/repairs. Which is "newer"? According to what you feel is obvious, it's my '98 Toyota that's newer: more recently modified - more recent last modification. And besides time of last file modification, there are file creation time, last access time, and last status-change time. Please make the minor clarification that lets users know that this is about last-modification date. It won't take much time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 08 20:45:24 2024 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2024 00:45:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syKpQ-0001KA-CS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 20:45:24 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44868) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syKpO-0001K0-Sr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 20:45:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syKpD-0006ll-R1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 20:45:13 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syKpC-0006ab-0A; Tue, 08 Oct 2024 20:45:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728434690; x=1729039490; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=aR+gQNB6Lbj3oaAFaAec6ydfqDb9YGDELviWT5OK4Tk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=rYZQhV/Dl+s7rA5emdHGh6tpJvcQAAKuRACZkCRu/lrRqi0A/oOPwmi1jqrQ84vR TBq6PNe+EJ2hNYTyPXoTFmtuL1I7gumUuIn+CetswwjQAC8ywvIr075MaY01cT1w0 abZy6o5PuQbJ+YhjYAVt3GJJJpl/nA1L2gpdDKKSw6qPslFPmSGEuLzeta1uLJHDn ukTiJSnajRDAcKFoRSm6X79nzBJB/0Tz2yTsSpACHls+N+Ey3+u9LaRIcW7iHukfb L9znzRfRQ5dv/ZLCN4GVg4Fj8LtUc4B6xlQueVnwoi4IXZv4exaB1b2NDAaZQ9KPe LrdEjkdpBZ2t7X3opw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N6K1b-1u44qJ0AWH-0169Zn; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:44:50 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams via's message of "Tue, 8 Oct 2024 18:40:18 +0000") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:45:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ZpWj0JfhQL3wcM+euXopWxUlOcgmGAd9oeFU1SZ3ECf/Wy6u2/y jNP9KRr1pzopv+T1Rw4gfAZaq7SiYF1rOAoQ0dd5hMW8MY05b0a5yCbwEgrfcPO2EFnPZDU +6f2teT9L3Qu+8ENhfIZdkYuN4w4itOc7P4SS/Qf5IrI0AL4aic2KYyXYroBnGhJ+Tw26R/ sMd60OZY4u56716tmnm7A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+r/SjLUwgFA=;Zl65ISDpQ1kY8Eo9S5fWaTkfZUp Pe+e17gCwhVXARuEPfV/mZ1k0n5ZydK0d6hWFuB9jh8HOlCo0w1Np4PxvHX/2GctnPWkTaPl2 jKceGPLIz4fr7UuNJL6PPzdFKlbu8/3vgn7gMT7hL/Sl+4pY+l+jW1F+f+jE3ixqFFCMzQSOr QpL2r5dzPxHc1PMwZX6rMLrWBRcUQ9WYrqFY2Z2PWmoSjD6RmINq6lwiJiGsOAGV3Eag79A24 T73h3gnK9vWE9gg4ZM4wpLR9ZbyXqZBz6871/VOun7QPW11lnrtzfuYRCegJtp97rlahUdbMV FtY2JSXIj6I7eWwx2/Nsq9BAIFhXlJ2P9XNv+s2NVKSn0kDpXVREYZK6AdCMEwjJH+Nv7itSl vsdaVFJb/RFEex+r5KvRZ48eXhgzpMaiI0GUxmVHK3ilHsFAthI679EOUp2apbngSy0fg85j0 97vGh3h0WGVo1aAjgDgRjvDAlT5xfhf8y8Pv3F7VCund7yjiprC/iOgOxETa63PEdkRF9CRa/ 5pEbU3m6WM8NvWnQ0ua3v0T45EgXN7jXZKFDTltBusycXGWz68A4W/UXOpjhWrQ1hdz3CagPo 9xXBhCNhnbzS1OXnWEmtuYMHtryk0T5WHLVX8nvfZQibwzG614uEqmeaWnaQaA3TW0+RZYgOm gicwcY4/gaC5ZU2BePcTMrdx/mTErEpZ2wHnYp8EPAEdfRD6F3tvoL4EkvktHi27vjUHw52Ds OBJek6md9ylqE20vWh2BubQqcH4iCqL72bt2b1wgyOzVmhGDh5ghLllaq3F33YUDaT1uzLBrU jrlUcHvpaWe0mEUDI/X8ExGg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.11; envelope-from=michael_heerdegen@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Eli Zaretskii , "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > It's not about any implementation details. It's about > what's meant here by "newer". And the answer is that > it's about the recentness of the last modification. It's not obvious that the time that a file existed is not meant. Creation time is what came to my mind, and I find the actual meaning a bit surprising. Maybe I even didn't use this function where I should have and reinvented the thing because of a wrong expectation. So a +1 from me for trying to make it clearer. I know already saving files may create a new file and rename the existing one to a backup name - or keep the file etc. But anyway, let's at least say that creation time is not meant, but most of the time, last file modification. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 09:32:17 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2024 13:32:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56021 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syWnZ-0007tu-9a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 09:32:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42254) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syWnW-0007td-Ik for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 09:32:15 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syWnG-0003h0-3k; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 09:31:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=EfXFLcqo2iMiPoNjcaS8OLWC6TLuO4ZM6KAeAPjVdTM=; b=SIa+HgEX3s8c wp2HNy3jxyS7jfqutmYlpCYqt4fnZymDpuVbdG/Lhj8JfSe/CXmG9K/SWyCl34QeoWmcyd2Hd01K7 NlC+2/vaD7gGL0JOhAai4iOQrX4NqLWo6NQTkNtDf+s0BDIoTm74bnpFPKM2aGW/g0j3BGhXb23m4 3YEux0nY7SiqvRiBEvCFd5xUeUnW4z3Pi7uTsmoviIQvocyd6BSx5HKUlvm1VhGHYgx3tx5cqZChQ 5ZrYnarV3WrSITtBRIWS9vu8+8CG75ffO9xA6ltIoI3pTgkvYoEKFlD6E7hVGRqT9pRk3cbQM6iOR DxGXzN1kH2CkTIuJcLm9PA==; Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:31:50 +0300 Message-Id: <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:45:44 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams , > "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2024 02:45:44 +0200 > > Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text > editors" writes: > > > It's not about any implementation details. It's about > > what's meant here by "newer". And the answer is that > > it's about the recentness of the last modification. > > It's not obvious that the time that a file existed is not meant. > Creation time is what came to my mind, and I find the actual meaning a > bit surprising. Maybe I even didn't use this function where I should > have and reinvented the thing because of a wrong expectation. So a +1 > from me for trying to make it clearer. Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? What is "last modification"? does changing the file's mode bits constitute "modification"? does renaming the file or moving it to another directory constitute "modification"? what is the meaning of "last modification time" of a directory? etc. etc. -- do we have now to explain all of that in our documentation? And if we don't explain that, what exactly did we gain? replacement of one allegedly unclear term by another? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 350db2c8-dc04-45c9-5ec2-08dce87ff2ac X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Oct 2024 16:32:20.9095 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: hugWZDpC/iF4Z4EvRVfQzGym6v6caJKewI0FTKHpON1pZjzOfwLZnWR/CQ/3W0JbCDCHd+hssPxxFbFKPkqjrg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY5PR10MB6263 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1051,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.62.30 definitions=2024-10-09_14,2024-10-09_02,2024-09-30_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2409260000 definitions=main-2410090101 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Nn5rAl6oXMJqJH5J-NDHOuW48dDDITqT X-Proofpoint-GUID: Nn5rAl6oXMJqJH5J-NDHOuW48dDDITqT X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > It's not about any implementation details. It's about > > > what's meant here by "newer". And the answer is that > > > it's about the recentness of the last modification. > > > > It's not obvious that the time that a file existed is not meant. > > Creation time is what came to my mind, and I find the actual meaning a > > bit surprising. Maybe I even didn't use this function where I should > > have and reinvented the thing because of a wrong expectation. So a +1 > > from me for trying to make it clearer. >=20 > Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc > string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be > sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? =20 > What is "last modification"? does changing the file's mode bits constitut= e > "modification"? does renaming the file or moving it to another > directory constitute "modification"? what is the meaning of "last > modification time" of a directory? etc. etc.=20 Yes, it could be interpreted to mean a change to file permissions or other things, rather than a content change or a change by `touch'. That's why we have a complete, rigorous description of attribute `file-attribute-modification-time'. If you feel it's needed, you can add a link to that description/definition. If you feel linking to that description is point to the "implementation", and you don't want to do that, then don't. > -- do we have now to > explain all of that in our documentation? The relevant question is what we need to explain in the doc string of `file-newer-than-p'. The rest is already explained well enough elsewhere in our doc (the manual). The doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' should be clearer than just "newer", to give some indication that it's about the last modification of the file content. That's all. If necessary, it can link to the more precise explanation. IOW, you needn't go to the extreme of saying that we would need to explain everything in the doc of `file-newer-than-file-p'. All that's needed for that doc is something a bit clearer than just saying that it's about a file's "newness". > And if we don't explain that, what exactly did we gain? > replacement of one allegedly unclear term by another? By another that's less unclear - yes. It's a matter of degree. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 19:21:19 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2024 23:21:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57939 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syfzb-0006Sm-A9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:21:19 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:36445) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syfzV-0006S9-MC for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:21:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728516047; x=1729120847; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=RxlNOdqT5EKD2Oj2nacFjryfDrO+isVv+BUZVki8Lbc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=gtrljiFg9B2JpAgOW1vu+qSXh3HXqR/kShDzFdYlsQUhvrzDsqmZDS9q/Lill5j8 fw/mViLQ/72/46wH2VbddtUN5YhTLFLMV6MgwIewrDx/83xt6/MeLEmbp6PwiQxqH 4WwXBti2El552AB+uqm87FwolUEFP6bdU3DNtWdNDBQ0GkJwC2UnuSZCgBfHicn1U YQvd+gOLKZvJAtwh5a8l1eJKAoL7gE0juBswfGz4aTfhkO5V8F5E0kjMYMqvJmg21 /A6X3LRE8c9LBTGojskY/ONXj3I8nBkbghbxofArDwUbTsW4boe7ji60dg7ozseTs vfK3tnpkzLN4yXfYtQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHEbk-1tBvXa3rUm-0095CL; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 01:20:46 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:31:50 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 01:21:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Hdra17F1mGzt3ejoChxK2qPUWobdYHITZN3sGf5rZJIcG4Qsh3l EPoZGwo/mN/mTXGgfj4ITjicwpT+E7aqEupC6N++g7g9Vvae/yl8laU4RbcyA+ZDJU/zxhX ZlKXnRUHjD1jbQ/5zo9WmGGKeVsvJ5T7MYQYX89BTv5vV71yjHWpZxu0I+YB6Rw1Ci6rEqY 7yugkanddgf04UpWktDhQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/sISncbtFcM=;N9mjI6k9RyupO4+AeBD02mQpk3G 0KMrG0jvtMANfup4Png4DvQbCMv3CVWswS2qdzYuc4J2JgxGw6vutXW8fc2gY2Wi6WtV7dxna 1yV+Q2cYYHXUBRBJzcZHq4rThKhE39GiwjNCBMPlRUcSRVORL5Etas2DARcXYX7TTzkwfuakr /n7RNAsopSx71ovYmInnoBuAlzVrLyxK6BSwzkp6kgf2f1qDFsrWJYa8LIWh90k64NrHzH/ts PKkYEpOjl+f9FXbGLvp6O51bL3OTZliyfwmY1oJLRjeBmAn8YNoX5hT0IEFJv/9zSxBS6XlgL vAsIa1NdCYUXPTRSh/7xh4f+E3h2uctgL1G7IocjKp9O1JjHKm+4f4VWkCHhqKLcoDIqlMSIg +RRTkuFHvctdzUTWQ1ooG84PxQCz5SdE2gQP2Nq1qor63agkcb+XdaFy3CgKf5w1nqWcf98By 4G/Vw9pKpIlrGFh6ID4L4II2mTms6hb0/Z0vxuG1+nQ7rT7tHNF4vDZApYX6hemd3W7fFlpcQ vbUV+kaOEjz+08HPr9bc7BcCzUn/augvs3xehJ4R1BQ8NI3xVLxIPQh2sMuxlSOUhksu54DiD 4u+BpVf6/DKQqOGd4SAb0D8GP6gn0z0zVAIPK55JYtr8JAjvas9a7dI8y6KQYVSn0xKfAb8tR UXsEhf/QQSL7RBJc0QPMD9GzjXg15tHJt3b56sPp69hsggzCOkhIyesO3Z+3I3h36H4fkwZUi TSDjz320YUjbUq45olzzS4QEODerVTJjLGO/RsRpMV2QWY7T2gKRNM3HhMiLdZOg+VABuepIl o0GLgeVQJU7PcuXdJIUeg3Qg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc > string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be > sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? [...] I had a look what my find(1) man page says about the command line option "-newer": | Time of the last data modification of the current file is more recent | than that of the last data modification of the reference file. I think something like this is better than saying nothing, and worse than telling all details. Apart from that: if it is hard or not practical to describe what the function returns in every case, we can instead try to describe major use cases. For example, checking whether an auto save file has to be restored, or whether a file has to be recompiled. Then the user would probably have an idea about what this is about even without any background knowledge and implementation details. At least a misunderstanding would be less likely. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 19:43:45 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2024 23:43:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57967 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sygLI-0008Ld-U3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:43:45 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f50.google.com ([209.85.218.50]:54318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sygLG-0008LO-W8 for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 19:43:43 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f50.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a998a5ca499so46150266b.0 for <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:43:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1728517351; x=1729122151; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GnRUD6i2mOf16eLn3SmW8xNtF6GipIqoZr4H17xo0oY=; b=gm0/30ug0BV1lpZ5Jj9HW/uFbeVhLIXv1IP7OYizxbtf6pWkb+LaweG0i6xfYZBwp/ CKyZHcNCqYzEDECdSX1tjcBxv/8hRvuw51n5LFokDd2pecj4Mmd+pJEyr1pwC63Pd/Yw Tt6KUeri66cHoRVIgX70uCxX4DnHy53mrSovee6jtSt1tSwzU/jsRMAKE8xQ0PV3pIPV 8uuLp/eGhRlyTSFfvZw64/hmNxwYhmKGebPmg7Fhs/Qj0mg+9S/RnuX1MlgWUIZkbnPm f0cAOXhwZFqgdJRAFxh5nRrsPaAAOoyGBvq0CyX6Ef+rP+tIU9eYMBrW+zcsw1CUcIly DegQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1728517351; x=1729122151; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GnRUD6i2mOf16eLn3SmW8xNtF6GipIqoZr4H17xo0oY=; b=YxLOmOiOlN0dRwyCOG/+o55KpjQ7l/dW0VRd3Ln3VJC8bVihWwUD62Ar6AklWxwQk8 I/JUVf+RJiGxFPXmCr5Km4Ojn8HLmBJuSqZbtg4qn9SnONdgdKTBKfWYFDDlbIP75zEu kMHKTap69TaXB4KV1eXkt92yhWaAi1anycd+Mx4+r7hPbFj/ORJB1fR9+xXwX0+jjeiD f3rtTl5N74xr5Vg4rwTQ9TH4L/EbNx3nT7SZinZgLorBpXxcxQ8Sz6Po+nB0j9V1IPNl hNTYIz/Q0IjQvwRD2AAKtCy1ZKYv9c+Zgx8ojx3XPuG/AKpLKA36os0wQuN6cXSFBR9K toEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzgGyPRdpNCXu3vPLJe9PjPxPKbvJE5s4+5yx3diDgOHfcGaDxL DKithCs2oEvqrq8r0p6LuOgE+ZRRd7f3Od6Y61kFGonx4i9cGwjk5atl8wx+94TzDoLNCstv2Yx CJcjB2HTyBNfPnOXpP03XMJUJiOg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEWFhBD2B95pJ/RH+RfjhqqIcn8LzJu3yY9CNaxzJ/GYDmHOeREtk9kufQFyiGzBAlthC8CCfwcetkf2rUsqUQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:d08:b0:a99:61d1:348f with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a998d321ac9mr351455866b.52.1728517351053; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:42:30 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:42:30 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' To: Eli Zaretskii , Michael Heerdegen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc > string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be > sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? On GNU/Linux (actually POSIX) systems, we have atime/ctime/mtime. The word "newer" does not make it clear if we mean ctime or mtime. The phrasing "last modification time" makes it clear that we're talking about mtime. This phrase is already used further down in (info "(elisp) File Attributes"), and should be equally good here. > What > is "last modification"? does changing the file's mode bits constitute > "modification"? does renaming the file or moving it to another > directory constitute "modification"? what is the meaning of "last > modification time" of a directory? etc. etc. -- do we have now to > explain all of that in our documentation? I don't see a need for the Elisp manual to explain these details. Users that need to know such things in detail will have to refer to other platform-relevant documentation, such as the POSIX standard: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/basedefs/V1_chap04.html#tag_04_12 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 21:47:26 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2024 01:47:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58107 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syiH0-0006qi-6X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 21:47:26 -0400 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:65022) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syiGx-0006qX-W8 for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2024 21:47:25 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246627.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 499Ltdxp016448; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 01:47:12 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; 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Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:09:57 +0300 Message-Id: <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 10 Oct 2024 01:21:40 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 01:21:40 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc > > string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be > > sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? [...] > > I had a look what my find(1) man page says about the command line option > "-newer": > > | Time of the last data modification of the current file is more recent > | than that of the last data modification of the reference file. That is not accurate, as I hinted previously. What constitutes "file's data" is vague and system-dependent. > I think something like this is better than saying nothing, and worse > than telling all details. Very well, but please remember your opinions in this matter, because if someone comes up asking for more details about "last modification times" (perhaps even Drew himself, e.g. because someone asked some question on SE), I will defer to you and Stefan to deal with the fallout. > Apart from that: if it is hard or not practical to describe what the > function returns in every case, we can instead try to describe major use > cases. That'd mean a lot of text to write to describe what should be clear enough, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. I don't think it's our job to describe how the various filesystems work. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 10 04:26:41 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2024 08:26:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58616 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syoVN-0002lz-1p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 04:26:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syoVK-0002lk-2J for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 04:26:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1syoV3-0005tu-3P; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 04:26:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=awstq9QR3hr9ZyAiUXyTTjJT3d/ItZbhHWeoioitJ3k=; b=F8p9VqFSlbdT HhRueXjhyI7Zpv0KNMnoxeNTrGJ7H29vIfq8u1wSDlmCe7/iP5krk9oQz662bnwu7AWzBo498tkxi HGnqGm+9r3rZaTWtxs7TdHeS9f+IHfKJgDw5jsHV54O+6/Bu2jm/h9uyufdHqry/D4FforOhGktRr jHHtOujLjZuSiXOr8qR7xAMAln3POJ04Tv6rBHhrNvR8PbvHV1IrWbqGMHO+O2vxrwqF5Tcl+PU7D 2+jr53rU++uFjEDV3als91nAx0oSD9vwmEQxdPxt1iVNbJavuPspMRa6s2ELRVfV3AxkeznK8TY8U mjrqeur36lSHadvSo3kPTw==; Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:26:19 +0300 Message-Id: <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:42:30 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2024 23:42:30 +0000 > Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Are you sure this is a good idea? If the user who reads the doc > > string doesn't know the meaning of "the file is newer", how can we be > > sure she knows the meaning of "file's last modification time"? > > On GNU/Linux (actually POSIX) systems, we have atime/ctime/mtime. Actually, modern Posix filesystems have much more than that. > The word "newer" does not make it clear if we mean ctime or mtime. Why does it matter? Emacs Lisp programs should not care about these details. Emacs offers APIs that are not direct channels to calling a Posix system call. Emacs offers additional abstractions that are supposed to protect the caller Lisp programs from too much low-level and system-dependent stuff. Seeping system-dependent details into our documentation goes in the opposite direction. If people want Lisp bindings of system calls, they should use Guile, not Emacs. > The phrasing "last modification time" makes it clear that we're talking > about mtime. This phrase is already used further down in (info "(elisp) > File Attributes"), and should be equally good here. I think you are mistaken, but let's let time judge who is right. > > is "last modification"? does changing the file's mode bits constitute > > "modification"? does renaming the file or moving it to another > > directory constitute "modification"? what is the meaning of "last > > modification time" of a directory? etc. etc. -- do we have now to > > explain all of that in our documentation? > > I don't see a need for the Elisp manual to explain these details. Neither do I, but for different reasons. > Users that need to know such things in detail will have to refer to > other platform-relevant documentation, such as the POSIX standard: > > https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/basedefs/V1_chap04.html#tag_04_12 How do we expect someone to write portable Lisp programs based on that technobabble? If the call to file-newer-than-file-p does not live up to its contract in some situation or doesn't fit people's expectations that are based on the documentation, I expect people to submit bug reports about their expectations not being met, and demand us to fix the implementation. Suppose that on some filesystem FILE1 was created after FILE2, but file-newer-than-file-p does NOT return t for FILE1. With the previous doc string people could tell us the function was broken in that case, whereas with the current "fixed" doc string we could tell them that since the mtime told us FILE1 was not newer, we are okay, and this is not a bug. Does this sound reasonable for Emacs? I think not. IOW, the addition I just made per your request breaks the (useful, IMO) abstraction we had. For what good reasons? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 10 07:09:02 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2024 11:09:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58839 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syr2T-0002il-N4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 07:09:02 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:53617) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1syr2R-0002iQ-CB for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 07:09:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1728558513; x=1729163313; i=michael.albinus@gmx.de; bh=rkxkyYhRHV5lAslLNPULhYFOWM8laWqsM9kZqbyhpN0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=HDKT0XiJtYALcTapVKyBesdQRoZmcE7MQW3W8pKu2dq8OFmCpkyEkNqtUgGuIArH nkYSs0W2rieLKcYgxuLmAStDp9wOQq0NO6NTEwa7mvqfFxn01zRmWvr7oLD+kmdNA yedchdJqlwLgsvEQf88tJqIgEfHq4ARed35g29oNo1R5i7O4p6NsDPLs8DFqMuVRm BIq2RK+/DVRuVcB44RKvOdWyWSIGcFgtFl6sBkm2grJSLtIE8Kl0act7ZWfeJwKjy K58/Aoo+EIHYgwvnprA8WRcok5hQ6wiw/IoZOLSKCzFNphJdH13X2C259bFSmcajq NGsUeo9tcIEoogs0zA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from gandalf.gmx.de ([185.89.38.155]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MGQj7-1tCpWG18Cz-00Bg3l; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:08:33 +0200 From: Michael Albinus To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:09:57 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2024 13:08:29 +0200 Message-ID: <87r08op64y.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vLNW3Dk1WoWv0zQO6HOJ530/BvXVpCzWksrtDbcW3FsEnH6NIhc NOECR1XuxyM8JXIrUxfCEIU+h0lPq73VPc4y3C0sr7NIHMVJLinPsgggIpbSX2XiHCl8+bF CM3nAfasXO0p1xMdYYQEQBB4PpH4/X4p14sqMjVGTPvVJ26q8xIHFVYtWYfzSSwd8hWw76z SZMiW3a73Ui6gE8YSorNQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:OFrPcdC1Pnc=;qcD+rCCy1PZKEcLRm/eBN97pYoS w0CR+VtBZhaZyHB+41Od9weXFv2SV34ONxfbyfZ6+TDZmOt4rWWF2tkmuW1eQr/7AOgFjG6Vq WwRTUr19cYzCQOP7BMYVBNcffKIt4UWBoyonQZLxS+JFjN8Nz66cYSAkLBykhfO/naRgLHBOS 7EdvMQt2RClXg2nods+EdCL9XgxXmDWuyFEivgaJyyW3zyljtKat3YZOh0bmfwgp8UU1ATYPn dVIqf3ZxYU7JhxOpxQ/8RYxmEuEW7TjRJP473reVcwBBacCrhM8x7oQDvhzw2+ZXqWGm6PTtz 4cQ5zORh0ye2DfP5oXs0xlxJf36AWyUycPy2OSxOO5T0LreeFKDF1HQbSdGAfAgPwvSBEZLA7 h8QCULw/78tV8l8qxZFXdwQqoMN5rSWQxP/DtkcZnNB4Gp9r2JPVpQW2RCOyvrvYblBiepm9l NAXBOFZyU6QhSLRjhsFinyPqBnxFL0hKeOO/dSiSnpb/SbycwtPso/FKNi92alfefPjNhATFY JoqqCdERwqjnYJSSO7ktFBDL6mFS5OFcTTxrZYGT7x1Jn4wK8yxZkSDIa5moLOPqAZ7Mykufa zGk0Q4A6w8gVqC9YgO8MU7jzciTGJJb3dEvp+SeS5jJaxKmt5aBe+/IyYLVnRvM0hH/ExQhPM cBiCZ14N+956uqrCeieljrZsbcfxYXL5EF+SYZjZf+i5MXfilUmzk6dssCywLyminJH+N5tBN ahPly8Sy/oZ+52875fVBG7zR2gvOKReu0Sm8r7UhVcMPNkZVEzBwn9u2fYw1UfNOw6JeVm3TI NSDkgatptxRvPlOHHf6oftmQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: Hi, >> Apart from that: if it is hard or not practical to describe what the >> function returns in every case, we can instead try to describe major use >> cases. > > That'd mean a lot of text to write to describe what should be clear > enough, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. I don't think it's our > job to describe how the various filesystems work. In the Tramp case, we couldn'tz even be sure that the remote file is treated there as "file". See for example the Tramp gdrive method, or think about AWS S3 buckets. Tramp asks the remote system about whether a file is newer than the other, and it returns this answer in its file-newer-than-file-p implementations. On classical filesystems, it is the last modification time, yes. But we cannot guarantee, because we simply don't know the details of the remote filesystem. Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 10 20:22:54 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2024 00:22:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz3Qk-0002cy-0v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 20:22:54 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:43419) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz3Qh-0002ci-8W for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 20:22:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728606143; x=1729210943; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=03w94l6Kh/yNdVtUJ1I5aoHZjJsJVm2rHH4DsBLv/Bs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=OuqHBJetJNjUZ2dBPxblKpoZEiidxhZFPvzoZUGOD78DZPc4maopG7XOzLX8Dt2P 5LpPiMaRavjej9nuyyYPZr9UM9Lw7gJzauI/hcKPGrqLIn9CPyFXb2srkN9D+pNkq RoALmUi1a1/ObAO+jraPXkpjWfRGrJ89J7fpS26wNKy3Kz0uYnz/frGYepM1nQvcu eTkqD5+ZUfKn/Q3enQqmExK9zxrZ/v+/i4wbdBBZKxQebk01SIqHRaQCSWVoea0ud lw9PPPVGwsi7uG8RZUUluZatwKYsKQDLHVZ4cxNViIs6pNDqFwzoMkBGzuIJLFscm r+oYzh9dl1rSvKj7mQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mi537-1td5021r7J-00fm3m; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:22:23 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:09:57 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:23:09 +0200 Message-ID: <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vJlhbi+VYkisQTSaneVz9kDd4DL3vCLsX3lwpWxnmwGf5yWp4MK gJH6zgVSw8bS3qFLdd/ATGLMbUUOKhAKF05X00cniKV6v63C3hl5XyRNrCbNkMhIrrSbpGT SIoUrQSmppRVLSki1WveWiCQ9g1/AHchbEBZSX1XX1s8DkgwDm1elYIQo6t7ky9eIOnfU5j HUFW9G3iQDF729YaVRlVw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:fGQ6N8X9bOI=;yxcEKsOqGIOkRFg7C3SUB54ftHE YWg4Gm2tDW0b2P1dNs9FSxwAbTNkR8B/+Z1WlQaOLYzYs667JrATVIcjp0z8ZNAXLoxob0i2B pGG38yHzQYCgU6TsoGHlEPcN5Rrh+ps+91Uw+oLCmk2FnQCRQAtZp0WTXIC9ZZeOm8J72vQ+2 9sco/DRFGSGLqaUKgO6mcQxhSOcNQ31ANGQT2/dcGjkYE7L1efmjQp4wonYjeHSBrOn62t6L1 E0ljyFGT+en3R886lr83sUT2FFHpvUI5IgnP/UhkVmm7FLhEOM8q/e/7abOdau2F/Gd0+IIDc M7OBPNg2YhS9bloMYH3idd8Wcyn/5Moaxzbhdm7jDC7oa1CF5A4b+5F5RRLbaBuVhC3sA0yN8 0yFZ9iNriFbvFGkhxn4yxulkno6gSgLZvS7cHKzoSCbj1WgXXt2n8NhVO4yuLEs3hzx1T/ufx 1scFe1+t18xEF42c9O+U7YHzgd2QE0WOiU/TwlWRjGi15d4Slsiz/7zJNlQ8LniKvJzgpdVNn 6kdeD4bOhBsdHDUNkhrRaGVbG5RtrHprkbTDBH9n8cHHXODYQDwb1kEpzx1a6XAac+jn3Tufm yE7TU+Yn1/IzjaV/E/HoLnl1c0yGO5CeUHzjU4+9zWOWfQ82s8EnoAPHFxpTJYuqspr9n3QeY E94xwB3ZuD5yTvd/8OU+poHb8GUwhgS4/DTUVvuLn4n8xDh7VLRzTgee+WzqReapVM6xcu11p s139IY8RH2F1YzWv8SGC+XjXSWKTF6ar3zzHqiIWVlDUfGGenhcc5CBTeKchwYhAcbVuNu2hQ je5wuIiCdwR/l3hFSaGPOOJg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > Apart from that: if it is hard or not practical to describe what the > > function returns in every case, we can instead try to describe major > > use cases. > > That'd mean a lot of text to write to describe what should be clear > enough, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. I don't think it's our > job to describe how the various filesystems work. This is not what I suggested. My suggestion was to tell something like "For example, this function is used to check whether a file should be restored from an auto-safe file, or needs to be recompiled". This is possible without describing how filesystems work, or how quantum chromodynamics work. > Very well, but please remember your opinions in this matter, because > if someone comes up asking for more details about "last modification > times" (perhaps even Drew himself, e.g. because someone asked some > question on SE), I will defer to you and Stefan to deal with the > fallout. When you say "[...] should be clear enough": are you sure that the misinterpretation as "file creation time" only can happen to me and to Drew - because we are exceptionally stupid Emacs users? If not: do you have any better idea? And: Sure can you ask for my help, but, with all respect, please not in such a way, Eli. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 10 20:41:34 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2024 00:41:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60941 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz3io-0003e8-JX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 20:41:34 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:58829) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz3il-0003ds-RG for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2024 20:41:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728607243; x=1729212043; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=fax1nlkpK0LGbBwECvQBW7+oMjjO0fzlyhl+6swTmBc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=h6hAjhcz42g691Ec/R4v0ZErCuDKVYHD0SmiTSHpk55U9JAnpITDgq1rdJIpyT3U QOnUpZmwt7eds95IaYU2mO4q++mQdGenid/c8vUYHughgWVbIZM7j8EzSLJJxvQoE dZxw/nNU4b7JtIVsj0/zbrw1VKk5BQ/+WziZvIEp3Kt5Dv786++JzmieCITBAYX36 tECUiJyROAv57ZCC8VcZTnaD6ygNGaI5e6Tg8xfFGlvTNZTtc2As3/kI2IVibBYVM PHL6iT6/mAd4bkX+euPcqc71Lw6iq/9oIe5Pca4yd7CgV11wBo4OSc0wzxonjb7rR 5RJGjUdwWEpefgbJzQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MYtwy-1tTjkx2Qs4-00WSMs; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:40:43 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:26:19 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:41:40 +0200 Message-ID: <878quvtqrf.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:sHxtc45ydnKooHtu4QSEGYVJcDoVsNPTBNaIAX4kA+oDIuG8Rnl ZnrvpKI1xOPM/pmtKfE1sJdgTFkCcWK8Fxhfmd/fVI2IipXX+uwjVtZ/MtrNBxX+t7to9XY Ac1VPHYWcfNkBht/qya9FY9ZoRIBiSMbvRqimz/RDEdNLg72I2iO6vXqdD5hpLWUB3ds9BZ 3mqnviBqcsU1fZSTeH2Og== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:hmBOiM9Qxb4=;61KYL3qzETp/ohORKcoG3xdMHMc fzuhGPIhHN4Hs3lhV+riW2X3pA5xcmuqylyE3h53g56czt9FYvp5ukteOP28p2GpXCMqUAD7c UCdA7PqFZTttOZuPnhPWqk58mSzTYg5RLfH/Ugs97/XBiKFZwwi5kR7AqAM0H0S31EjLzJgEx w0Xj2punRy4qFDns2QDPwcNjJO0E/a8N0wtviwq8l7iDnKX5P9jlQJ7E+0E9aJvkn4ZYO7gbz zTVT7vkYCM315dgvaO7b8mo0kdzYmmrLVuZdnL6W5/vsMb/kdZAi0fJwfsahh3w22L7lplJYs ANYt/QDEpny5zKXd+tNtlvJdmllbqC27LPdPvDkb3E41qbw5nKKuN+4R9U0OnXcZd5hFUGrTX vS4yJpxpi4CmT49caBmX6jW6O8JWjMgkIVJxqKCem2fUb0vw15w+8J5vh3yEqATr43F+XwpZY ZE4/guP8PY8a9w2eTdT73Qblh/NZz0hGFf/PiqX5w0Jia8HKonKr/MfB2Grmb7y5mvtCSeTkj bUE+WUXhvSjJsR7fzu/EDQmRDAC545utFu5ifLMad/59uh48pQgZy9hVlzmnNOvwLf9difDcQ t3iu5y+G0rdYwJ/u28uyREM7gpV8FbdZomrn/ScJ22vyG+Cmw5PSD5ZcfCfCVZiMcwH6sEXnX R0esVHZDV3q5Puh8Kuje52nmxndxGy9fAI8xYODqohDcQnV37pI8bKXkpOEuIxDbTiyEa1yLX 81d9rBZ7DHEq29jfp/h5yxTzzpjwbEBA5vrdUppvU/TWY+ynf3l2qwKgKkSmXl69ckmP34CIv mpYWnKYIoHek3nHxs5mDeuzQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > IOW, the addition I just made per your request breaks the (useful, > IMO) abstraction we had. If you had an abstraction it should be possible to describe it. This is actually what I wanted. The problem with what we had was that people who did not yet know the abstraction could read something different than intended. > For what good reasons? One reason was that I had misunderstood the docstring and that this may happen to others. I really would like to know why that doesn't count as a reason. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 11 01:56:55 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2024 05:56:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8dy-0003dY-JS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 01:56:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48074) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8dw-0003dK-El for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 01:56:53 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8dd-0003ar-RR; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 01:56:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=QjyE+6Uja5iWSKlqB+uSfzZKcpkN6NGhNn2XuTQS/m4=; b=N881KKztBRKm HfRRTIhlz5OTW4Jwgu++xJhXz6jkpDdVqpRZJLVnV8e7CqyCyTuEbwa18iLj+y5QdRku3qbnestwv zPsl3cTBoL0dvl7P41LOyRgDVYunWyml4WCxeOmwBDkn6cyNctKr8nQ+aar8UzK3tTXtzRslNd4R8 ro4A7NEb5yl5ufLJF8OMyRIrNWubQj2dVffhVw9/MztgO7N9lWLoB2Ey0DoOuIqZX1SY6EWGhSBwA JV1RUgL0g5GjTdC9RLicrGbQT4StWWrPIbUM1LlwUlb2sQ4PTMAOjGzhU8tNeQJxnleyFw5ulefbr zVEFQ6PdpmDYqa8WGXKg2w==; Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:56:30 +0300 Message-Id: <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:23:09 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:23:09 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > Apart from that: if it is hard or not practical to describe what the > > > function returns in every case, we can instead try to describe major > > > use cases. > > > > That'd mean a lot of text to write to describe what should be clear > > enough, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. I don't think it's our > > job to describe how the various filesystems work. > > This is not what I suggested. My suggestion was to tell something like > "For example, this function is used to check whether a file should be > restored from an auto-safe file, or needs to be recompiled". This is > possible without describing how filesystems work, or how quantum > chromodynamics work. I'm okay with adding examples that people think might be useful, if all we do is mention them without going into details too much. To me, the 2 examples you mention sound almost trivial, but I nevertheless won't object to add some short text with such examples, if they help someone better understand the purpose of the function. > > Very well, but please remember your opinions in this matter, because > > if someone comes up asking for more details about "last modification > > times" (perhaps even Drew himself, e.g. because someone asked some > > question on SE), I will defer to you and Stefan to deal with the > > fallout. > > When you say "[...] should be clear enough": are you sure that the > misinterpretation as "file creation time" only can happen to me and to > Drew - because we are exceptionally stupid Emacs users? There's nothing stupid about that. Moreover, in some subtle situations this will be the exact meaning of "file newer". My point is different: that Lisp programmers should not think about this in terms of file attributes returned by the 'stat' system call, but as a higher-level abstraction. > If not: do you have any better idea? Better idea about what? > And: Sure can you ask for my help, but, with all respect, please not in > such a way, Eli. Sigh. Why do you have to interpret what I write in the worst possible way? It's possible that my dry humor is sometimes too dry, but there's nothing other than dry humor in what I wrote above. I'd expect everyone here would recognize that by now, but I guess not... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 11 02:03:34 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2024 06:03:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8kP-0003xi-KZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:03:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47872) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8kN-0003xS-1O for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:03:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sz8k4-0004VJ-Sn; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:03:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=QYP4b1JxsoH3aFZM/AawySiHI2QhvF46RWFt5X8Mv9Q=; b=NVDg8+FKfoVy famKisGWyncWzCnGqQj7cA8dSzdrngtJkzOXu4tFsHCamuA4f1WG9KJeET45XmlIQQD2ryTT7yh3K o66Rv9/LNFfdJ/y8NaWhrGpcWMpIrrF6A2mnjpkF7bexz4G1kSm7DTv8UKEqCeOhf1DQJ4md2cYwb f4lFTO/7mf7KUHkUk/+JNDsztnChEdPP74PU9BtsNbYX3++uvz6Eb4w6COQ54HT3D8RKxajN4JDDZ hpl5k212J3cQO5A2t9fVLKuQ2yV+GZf/bInO6uxAutMV86JmgpifC7TVlsx+uhfvTq95nGuDxDCUm 5PKCah65wTqVrPMw33B/wQ==; Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 09:03:09 +0300 Message-Id: <86wmifyy5e.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <878quvtqrf.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:41:40 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> <878quvtqrf.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, > drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 02:41:40 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > IOW, the addition I just made per your request breaks the (useful, > > IMO) abstraction we had. > > If you had an abstraction it should be possible to describe it. It _was_ described. "Newer" is a simple word that everyone should understand. If "newer" is still not enough understood, we should have discussed how to make it more clear without leaking the abstraction. > This is actually what I wanted. The problem with what we had was > that people who did not yet know the abstraction could read > something different than intended. No, the request was explicitly to add specific technical details about how we implement the abstraction. Which is what we have now, and I think it's a step in the wrong direction. > > For what good reasons? > > One reason was that I had misunderstood the docstring and that this may > happen to others. I really would like to know why that doesn't count as > a reason. Because the request was to address the misunderstanding by exposing the details of the implementation. Once we start talking about file creation time vs file modification time (and don't forget file last-access time), we are not clarifying the abstraction, we are leaking the details of the implementation. Maybe I was mistaken in my interpretation of the request, but then please re-read the thread and point me to the part where the request was something other than explicitly mention the file's mtime in the doc string and the manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 11 20:31:05 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2024 00:31:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35732 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szQ2C-0005QQ-IB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:31:04 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:36661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szQ2A-0005Ps-Lb for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:31:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728693036; x=1729297836; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=uZF7BMfeFvYX/oWCy3yKhXY8txzq9jKsb3kHu7nQp8c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=vkRcUVudJz2pPlmwhyxC29/AW5YWFXwAm857o6kWTzFE3f/sFnzXALSkmqTXDwXM 2TxUA0TtrfHlJlQFe94QW4zl7ODOYAgwEfG4oBId56YqYn0Hs071NGCAyBsPwNsnd 54t1k5SyboVpsXeDVQu0dOJ2jkhXw7SnVdm+cTxiROg+YR/USHseDe1ch0ShYFCYg Q5dER7AwNHz4yWBSwX2+mFlcAwxuFTdkkEjWNLYerGFSmKkqemoFrQzKOivb8ex3Y JHoxdxsSknkltFBOiZJSwNm1lv/Tx6KTyjn42PgTau7yllmNuz1HZ0rSv6npI07RG DpFuLNc9EiRsreyoMw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MNOVK-1tJirp3WrS-00Kjz5; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:30:35 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:56:30 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:31:26 +0200 Message-ID: <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TLHBmxVBVTSfFCUwtfHzoTmZEwSqySV/loEoDfi6k0m2fjR2bro kr/OkIWrLhSGsw1qpE8WJ97Id8vwaEuF4UqCBrkZbq7W2SIjuGu2mOsZ1uiTWWPbfP6d8uD 3NoVpSebZ9k4RdV7B7NKOzd58pHdMiGYKyc0MZvnHDRZK2w2J9PtSNbZiOf7QsweMHe1NLx F05Z5ouoKSYRDOod+yFNg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:+NLXOFVObEg=;++hdapSzzib9eZPAIM/lO7de8RN PR6qc774LPG8bCwyBxF4mX63Y2EtA9q/vK2yDmRcBwuYU2+e8PVtAxrAyX3sRzpGdUF0fXI38 A98WXBppjEOPH5PPdp4yIe3I/jFibexCBt7SSKR6N6pIjo26jfaSSmehEUoRvVU2BAhRVXtEq 1WveeapobLinVi3vS4eh2XzZWxytRiS/dz8dXjxuDiuTvvRTRdXaUXTKZzJNqMUNTm6OkT3Lf hamUjgOYxFQbBrNCUM4aBLcuwj2Ns+yEPuZA0rXZ0vZ3zIfAYHRIjc0dN9buSPfndX7TjC9KX 8s1vgjf9kcSllC8B0ZQAQjLowWE9UXF4q/Cv/N2hBqDv1fBouYsdoJlpGB5kNzXqsvBeCXLH7 K34O4IRai+i6IyIyXrLUtglG8dlQhYZzY3jpj462kEdjO8peC86D9n4v4cxjcF0OsNTYhkUpS 7vDMOGrNDszy2h/llivAGap43WmPlBvVCu81a56Gfe6zCf4IBpIw64oTuSm41BJCXQbmhTehu YTUgr6YeB5gUWG58wT1J4ulaCaZQQoK8Z2ffEB/jCUr5cH5m14tLr+vEOUBOjsUMu/BQ74NvK ytneeOVmjmgCP0QfKv5S1dxBt9ykWYBBl/fEtkiEr+4XwVLmIAil8GUCEBNa/ARGiGDoGHDoK rXn8Yoq+mmXVjXar6NiBCKz7uFdHNlzPRpOJX/NUAeOXdKzrTj2bs5UlR2pYHtszA0SUwdjSB TMGe1vLgx3wbClGriAAdObcZyymlELNpKcvLLEQYJh7PnVfL6Td7Umjt5fofTuipENsjkIqiM bHMNTlzWNekLdEW1lhno/+Jg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I'm okay with adding examples that people think might be useful, if > all we do is mention them without going into details too much. To me, > the 2 examples you mention sound almost trivial [...] They are trivial but help to avoid the misinterpretation I had. I agree that "file modification [time]" is not much better than "new". > Better idea about what? About how to prevent a misunderstanding of the doc for people that not already know the abstraction or intended meaning of "new" here. > > And: Sure can you ask for my help, but, with all respect, please not in > > such a way, Eli. > > Sigh. Why do you have to interpret what I write in the worst possible > way? It's possible that my dry humor is sometimes too dry, but > there's nothing other than dry humor in what I wrote above. I'd > expect everyone here would recognize that by now, but I guess not... This is what you wrote: > Very well, but please remember your opinions in this matter, because > if someone comes up asking for more details about "last modification > times" (perhaps even Drew himself, e.g. because someone asked some > question on SE), I will defer to you and Stefan to deal with the > fallout. For me this is not funny. Especially when mentioning Drew who you often have arguments with. "Dry, maybe too dry humor" looks like an euphemism of "sarcasm" to me in this case. At least like masked anger. Humor that is about others can go awry. But maybe I just did not understand what was funny about that. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 11 20:37:39 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2024 00:37:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35739 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szQ8Z-0005iU-HF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:37:39 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:40535) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szQ8X-0005iG-5c for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:37:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728693431; x=1729298231; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=c/db1uYXSZH/rPRYcQ31pgSDiHVR4MXM4k9GToxevbs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=gDckuHQeC/2Ra9ZbmMUZQ5e2JTZDm45sd2LrOcvZQOrsg/Qb057pwqHsF0TYrEIx 4M3lKZHVfn+4Bs2RUxHemHrTwiMEsRz7TJBEhibkHKYdkvDbZQuoZhegINTCqdDvp QkzteUHegMpGNA5nskTvR4KvnuE/d/57hS6CbKUxW+tWw8/5TO/Q4r7Emgip4UKPq YU0rm31Z9y1/Ve4dRkYgcNnguw4B+HtUbxNWtvdBAFQSVILd76+T9063UOjbM2KZC IftzHRrohBibV3cMy7SyqilMoDaL1SN61v+wzdj7edZnjdW8m1PWY2VfuixzrE/Kx Qtre6EGlM9VySYWGvQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N2SKz-1ty1iz3t4p-010rep; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:37:11 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86wmifyy5e.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 11 Oct 2024 09:03:09 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> <878quvtqrf.fsf@web.de> <86wmifyy5e.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:38:06 +0200 Message-ID: <87frp288b5.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:FCwlUsyTAN2gyE1uG0NDQx0s8vyqBgPuooGnCYvlMB9aT8XInOQ GhDzoHlAr3gLNZD+LD6aZZGuiOCSOtoOWJcAhzJtfESTIGSv8ckVsOx/rHnvl6NYt+Mrn3l E9MDh2G06dRVtX8OTRmhm+ljj9SdNaBl/QyVq7QrkuKAdXeBqdyj9dKWxbUPnuQMsKJ5Np3 0FGExTZ5wOnKIfrNLqdrw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:uc8JjOIz8uE=;OeImFGVkWMVNF0AdmurqxYekrt3 dR9Xt7xzHcVEJU0CUWgztwOePn9NpMLk5IaDhiR/7daqKiYZrDIwodhmzKVlbueb2ud+noNS3 hqokjqgSTYHOVOThm5PoHAM92dhT8A908uzOKmPYb89BmiOw6GxjmkayU7N/pLQxJxwGPYLYC 2rnm0EJ4q+PBTPzlgQ40Gz3KfHJDkxBg1+33ckxGc75i3wxG3C2pHdo4iIbKPs5R5XcTUb1L/ UhhLVOqecUvoOCKOnVf9F9dYEpO3Dq0U4AHw/PAOwjvz4xAO/pdZpLZtIWQXGpPJm7wk45Uma UeOb1ojn32Nu/8MygmPF1Sllpsb6v/rw8h5JCVWiq4QjKSR43rmJrK3t9wUa6CTnwUb/bjBOq 9uyLWof/uVHBD5OMgeYkZe5RD/CvuU8s0Heeb8vNZQUv+Q1fwEdJW1QedM0Tc02wBQX7ufvMS jVyfHqtc/LaZ0HDE0N+pc0unNPfVj7IXHsK0K9pfk/qLQejJFEfnm+5W9oAFIHfR6tmm40zVX EctBmSs+0qDB+NmEDMIMd9GZsza0erxdgCzZQG4dFnRpObzGMEw7+xFo3U2RdFk35G+SPyjSU 4FXy/XBQzBr/G0fo9k1mg5VEO29vMMQDNl5e9UqgJ6oDSAdP5L9EzSOO5jfi5JWGNyAe7uU8K LHz3P1ii6dlu1otp/NafGL2s+DnOyB16E5Xq4zI0F337XQh31FHxfa/1e/YUa24fJJy4EKVXN p0AKlFSMNsy8RVCxwfWCwG+XBQq6rUHZ620Y0QUKiXMFW7rkONe0emnhjEOduL588PenMnRIa 38LoM8sEtYSjH6ybb6j/2xJA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > No, the request was explicitly to add specific technical details about > how we implement the abstraction. Which is what we have now, and I > think it's a step in the wrong direction. Drew, would it be acceptable for you if we tried to describe the abstraction without relying on file-system related details? And how could that look like? Michael. 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bh=juG9A3jWRy9WYYOSmrJ/bCxt/jfDQ6/bpimoMlKLT74=; b=a7HoSnsswBvNpb/NMdJVkwLehHvPOg4CBy0GYS+5brFHkt9Avm7UM0pysmpK9zZHspfbqqwMESeEpauogefyFxbX5LS4lazdQzYkQCdkOkOvOCwnkvtVOGTduem+VGeZiDpKsGdWQflNqUl9MJTm19pc6lsDM3H/BkHvxLNVgwU= Received: from DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:3aa::24) by SA6PR10MB8109.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:436::19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.8048.22; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 01:13:46 +0000 Received: from DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8303:658f:14f8:2324]) by DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8303:658f:14f8:2324%4]) with mapi id 15.20.8048.020; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 01:13:46 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' Thread-Index: AQHbHD7oJ4Kb9ZsJeEq3Vmv2C11oe7KCTALw Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 01:13:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <86zfnc1hzo.fsf@gnu.org> <878quvtqrf.fsf@web.de> <86wmifyy5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87frp288b5.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87frp288b5.fsf@web.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DS7PR10MB5232:EE_|SA6PR10MB8109:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 23e31166-9575-4baf-92c7-08dcea5b1f1b x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS7PR10MB5232.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 23e31166-9575-4baf-92c7-08dcea5b1f1b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Oct 2024 01:13:46.4085 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kXEPLp8sG2gFniZYhBvVXyY3olf6/tjz8QC8KhHy3gVhlIXOOpIEoyP6yoHW3Tf8GvAiDN+suQafaPLAEMmvHw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA6PR10MB8109 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1051,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.62.30 definitions=2024-10-11_22,2024-10-11_01,2024-09-30_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=752 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2409260000 definitions=main-2410120007 X-Proofpoint-GUID: P0f7iidaK9DDbzoyQTlCF643VfT1mDyU X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: P0f7iidaK9DDbzoyQTlCF643VfT1mDyU X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefankangas@gmail.com" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > No, the request was explicitly to add specific technical details about > > how we implement the abstraction. Which is what we have now, and I > > think it's a step in the wrong direction. >=20 > Drew, would it be acceptable for you if we tried to describe the > abstraction without relying on file-system related details? And how > could that look like? I don't care how you describe the meaning that what's more recent is the time/date of the last _content_ change. (Of course, it's a bit more nuanced than that, since you can `touch' a file without changing its content. But at a first approximation it's conceptually about a change in content.) You don't have to refer to the file attribute that has that meaning (`file-attribute-modification-time'). What's important is to convey the meaning - that's the thing (aspect/attribute/dimension) whose relative recentness is measured/compared. Do I think it would be a _good_ thing to actually refer to that attribute by name? Yes, because it's described rigorously and carefully (in the same node, no less). And even if you want to repeat the description, making the connection with the attribute that has that meaning helps users - it doesn't hurt them. That's what I think, but I don't say that's what you need to do. If you prefer to describe that meaning without referring to that attribute (because you think doing so gets into the "implementation"), go for it. To me, that makes Occam gag a bit, but it gets the job done. "Last modification" by itself doesn't describe it. "Last content modification" comes close. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 12 04:40:51 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2024 08:40:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36257 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szXgB-0005wF-5H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 04:40:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szXg9-0005vz-KW for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 04:40:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1szXfq-0002ZE-4U; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 04:40:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=9kLKX4J+z7JnLUhh6PawtZYxI52Twd7o4lPJw97MwH0=; b=f1GuM5cKplNG kXRUvJm5X9BTNqORqz0zAcqB29slFWiaZJxfhYnNShVGoD8fCkoO/kLlUI0LU8EuSOJzZprhdazer 5ZCYq/uDoe+QZ/VY7XuOJoNESgNQf6FbjNlDWsB1pe+qIETekF5K8SXg6lOarnpC0ztigqDwjqq5z 6iSk1tgBt1UVaInhXA2Bn0c+nL/jncEIEqc6mukx3DoJLqckloJ+hR1S13IXll8ZSbDXviCl3NZiX Rn+gq+CCM6Ec12JLhBVbFUXvApGEsi0g4tNzzDSkdek8oukTeUCDC2o98LyiMEnztshgiHazIo0Cs juIch4r6BL7miZU3EK5eZA==; Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:40:26 +0300 Message-Id: <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:31:26 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2024 02:31:26 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Better idea about what? > > About how to prevent a misunderstanding of the doc for people that not > > already know the abstraction or intended meaning of "new" here. I don't, maybe because for me "newer" is clear enough. But I'm open to suggestions. > > > And: Sure can you ask for my help, but, with all respect, please not in > > > such a way, Eli. > > > > Sigh. Why do you have to interpret what I write in the worst possible > > way? It's possible that my dry humor is sometimes too dry, but > > there's nothing other than dry humor in what I wrote above. I'd > > expect everyone here would recognize that by now, but I guess not... > > > This is what you wrote: > > > Very well, but please remember your opinions in this matter, because > > if someone comes up asking for more details about "last modification > > times" (perhaps even Drew himself, e.g. because someone asked some > > question on SE), I will defer to you and Stefan to deal with the > > fallout. > > For me this is not funny. Especially when mentioning Drew who you often > have arguments with. "Dry, maybe too dry humor" looks like an euphemism > of "sarcasm" to me in this case. At least like masked anger. Humor > that is about others can go awry. > > But maybe I just did not understand what was funny about that. It was supposed to humorously say that you will be the "guilty parties" for any followup complaints about this. But even if it was not funny, there's no reason to perceive it as anything but an unsuccessful joke or even simply unclear wording. Why on earth would you assume that I meant to offend or insult? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 12 19:10:13 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2024 23:10:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szlFU-0002d3-8E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 19:10:13 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:36019) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szktd-00017c-HA for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2024 18:47:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728773230; x=1729378030; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=+wTlZxeX6hV+qCkqd9X+zN6mTlStn1D8mFMzjGV7Ppc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=hBf53PIhUYUP/SIGdW1OyNF0snjNLi/lXf19KzPe+IgLdwnqPBNQjgiljNbgT527 PaiN7cC8V0sVXWQHEkmWyQck6c+Jvuhgt08AyzeDQfcUg4tKFwVAVc+X9C3aNGJ7Y er54TTT/6NZqgWo42RRli3Y/0OS6ejDPqz6yiW0IMAgHwWumUOXDsrITdOHQ1fVse bl1kkAr34GQ6J8xgu9z1MGnKV6+2imDykPmj/uRBqgkZLliy3lJ3cJSKNZuRO4IKi CgCQ+dXznJ54rhfqaqSrFv2X2sTSZJTlzKaJAJWN7p0dHOpb1NAAxQ+DiqxWDzaGT 6nM2eG8H1sOPmNGqzQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.227]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mt8gF-1toPhP0Htp-00rY77; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:47:10 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 12 Oct 2024 11:40:26 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:48:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:k7Ulf68kAt30wnrnsVwQUYjnROrNiUlq4YDpHHaC69Yb5aoeuin nFGMoY3/JDuXYJaBlt8N52mSh05Ha2dynN+3KL2JCMw8jx/1rKppVHPcCiAtApgV+Nm28MO JzWfC/6f580z9OzId5b+zxH0KZ2EUCAIS+z3EbZ1Hw5jqSJspu/7aTYf23mHbVJwmC81DR/ ZoZz102T6YZNb6zGUoqbQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:HYcl/mOhHL0=;def7az9R5RxIM3S1wBD6On3Safc KSgvw5sbXQSP8uA+1OWNlOUNwBAapVhoUnNHiU0I5IEJ9UVv9BP161a89ZB+6CfFJ63hWYmdZ uDJBhVDlzPWIHOS6U36r9VbVOGfO7F0ne5ek+Fac46wzaQNkOBPk434YcdvD0SIV5GF5wsFYk kd3usJj2B+wb/Cr6YBxtISutyE3oQZbKcaz7yz2KA14FL1p8lBirPYzGCq65kmYDZq2vaO5S+ zfRu1ReYeHy1UV8Ye4epkQKlSMZY3yvi5021FNV5N7jNhhNF3+rBkuexzYX1HfCwU+e9retHe QxJFGFQErQZL9urBDLisapgW7p0omYBtDLAoUAw++tqlniYVDz+UmfUnhAi39xRLELSRBuFiB vTpyZ2YhU4Q2lC7yasb4uqAzd5w+/9cR3FCNCTT2TeePaiD+5cpY0Im9nOhULMfCxQJUBR4lN OoKz5ZUymYa36XjJ+oknz3sfKTBjxd9pu0kZbe9Jc+RcB5Yv2HedgZKMpycn8EtX69IDq8R8c q94YoenUgXmjd1uLEXkppPeX09sXPrRqMfPmRhP+se5Lm9qAFs4m7ZeGWPqmAmHVc7VcFV5Hv mKZpYgo42oZgNI1S8ldtUnI3+unqRTHQL7leIaMr0ljIR2pHIP0+QmOBnQQvWdHbhvudAeRuO ZrLmclC9oE+t6FhU0MHVxX9zZcwB0aldYxaNU32G5LfszYhz+hesiCx1Zr7x33te9F3hTVWyO GhCVqsxmsp1c7TxYn0sCPZovIJJYqq60PMNj1FtPN48FKIL/wZbOodqFPk3ZwfHLD9bIN+YRj wS0HgLNMk5eFmZjUyKgUFuSA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > But maybe I just did not understand what was funny about that. > > It was supposed to humorously say that you will be the "guilty > parties" for any followup complaints about this. > > But even if it was not funny, there's no reason to perceive it as > anything but an unsuccessful joke or even simply unclear wording. Why > on earth would you assume that I meant to offend or insult? It's not my fault that you being angry and you making jokes is nearly indistinguishable. You also don't seem to be able to say "Ok, sorry, this joke didn't work so well". The only responsibility seems to lie on the other side. This is a bit too simple. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 13 01:14:19 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2024 05:14:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49899 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szqvq-00009n-Tj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 01:14:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1szqvo-00009Z-TW for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 01:14:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1szqvT-00022i-6J; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 01:13:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=sAgnFDipEC8kuLh00xmVr6yLvjpKQSJJJWqFGBQpi8M=; b=otLamuKTTyld /aRoxsftSrMeswt1PcgSpR6OqIOaKp9bI6VBKTfHxk6T6WAYd6ks/1apI8pU3A7/mixBbndvFczOD GG5I9EuSOxyOQ1jAacpo0G+jZQuCTspzGlL9W1aZQlWmBf6ZsO6JllGywOWllL7PtoNnZzYVMcYUR VvSIo/yK9leqhKx4meardjSIT+h99YYe5bFNbq6RIj10xVxb+QOWz4n/Tc5CLADliH4Qt4D72rruy uNpfVH9DYIUK163A+w5PjYEpEonipp0lNch6XjVOMCaV0iLuf9lA7mH18pFOjqVPexCZIGrK3Hp4M GfBdYi5E1x8J8kWSiqkyIw==; Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 08:13:51 +0300 Message-Id: <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:48:02 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:48:02 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > But maybe I just did not understand what was funny about that. > > > > It was supposed to humorously say that you will be the "guilty > > parties" for any followup complaints about this. > > > > But even if it was not funny, there's no reason to perceive it as > > anything but an unsuccessful joke or even simply unclear wording. Why > > on earth would you assume that I meant to offend or insult? > > It's not my fault that you being angry and you making jokes is nearly > indistinguishable. > > You also don't seem to be able to say "Ok, sorry, this joke didn't work > so well". The only responsibility seems to lie on the other side. This > is a bit too simple. Sigh. 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Doc string suggestion, first line: "Return t if content of FILE1 is newer than content of FILE2." Short and clear. (If you want shorter yet: use "that" instead of the second "content" - but that's slightly less clear.) [A better name for it would have been `file-content-newer-p'. The second "file" in the name isn't needed, as we're clearly comparing the two args, which are both files.] 2. For the rest of the doc string, consider replacing "the answer is" with "return" (both places). 3. The argument that "Lisp programmers should not think about this in terms of file attributes returned by the 'stat' system call" is misdirected. No one suggested they should. Just pointing readers to `file-attribute-modification-time' doesn't cause them to think that way. Mentioning it wouldn't hurt, but help. It makes clear _exactly_ what's compared. 4. But whether or not `file-attribute-modification-time' is mentioned isn't important. The point is that "newer" alone isn't clear. It's like "bigger" - mass? volume? height? width? depth? It's about WHAT'S newer - just _what_ about the two files is compared wrt time/newness? Answer: their _content_ (at a reasonable approximation). Not shorter file life, nor a measure of file metadata, etc. 5. FWIW, "newer" is accurate. I wasn't sure whether the test might actually be newer-or-the-same (IOW test, in fact, whether the content of FILE2 is older). So I tried passing the same file as both args, and got nil - "newer" is the right word. This might not be obvious to all readers, but it's easy enough for them to find out as I did. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 13 11:32:24 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2024 15:32:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52109 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t00Zz-00015l-VE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:32:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44546) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t00Zx-00015R-4T for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:32:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t00Za-0000d2-9m; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:31:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Kp+ZKHcI+9XE7rXDdqy8uPWwqjy/R9FVfzOeMJ3nIX4=; b=pfegcB216iOg YO/bgSxWmKbimzGlepEV7oCSsZVX+WkhjCtpd65pUmPar/rYQ4gL6dCx/QK+3VTOq9DsRFeziVaM9 4LnsCw5vO/h0OFjohJjxj5SQMvgVlKUJKTHJfURRVSxpWY3GR80V85xKJ6GDP3k29iW+JTj4/Rpg2 ATzWiZh/T/wI8q7/FEd6gNBZl++rOTCV19jHffRcUkAZEbiej574Dd0KoNj8xjn9ICpVHiGpom/e6 UyiaS6jc1zV9n/KysSLlmBpw5nQEvNR0kXdJApVjlt3hUEoW/hvirOBlzphg133lkCX0FI+JYhQZi kVq5UhJU2+uGTijzAovG5g==; Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 18:31:26 +0300 Message-Id: <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:51:19 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:51:19 +0000 > > 1. Doc string suggestion, first line: > > "Return t if content of FILE1 is newer than content of FILE2." > > Short and clear. It's short and clear, but it's inaccurate. E.g., how to define "content newer" when both files have the same content (like if one of them is a copy of the other)? 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Doc string suggestion, first line: > > > > "Return t if content of FILE1 is newer than content of FILE2." > > > > Short and clear. >=20 > It's short and clear, but it's inaccurate. E.g., how to define > "content newer" when both files have the same content (like if one of > them is a copy of the other)? That and other details should be available from `file-attribute-modification-time', if important at all (which is why it can be good to point to the doc of that attribute). But it's _not_ available even in that doc, is it? (elisp) `File Attributes': 5. The time of last modification as a list of four integers (as above) ('file-attribute-modification-time'). This is the last time when the file's contents were modified. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Doc string of `file-attributes': 5. Last modification time, likewise. This is the time of the last change to the file's contents. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If we don't get into such detail in the doc for the attribute then we certainly don't need to get into it in the doc for `file-newer-than-file-p'. But what's _most_ important here is to say WHAT thing (aspect/attribute/dimension) it is whose relative recentness is measured/compared. Just "newer" or "more recent" doesn't cut the mustard. The thing that's measured/compared, as the attribute doc itself says, is the "file's contents". Don't believe me; believe that doc. As said before, it's a matter of _degree_ of clarity. The current doc for the predicate isn't clear enough. It misses what's most important - content changes. "IOW, you needn't go to the extreme of saying that we would need to explain everything in the doc of `file-newer-than-file-p'. All that's needed for that doc is something a bit clearer than just saying that it's about a file's "newness". You repeat that it's ALL OR NOTHING, claiming both (1) the current doc is fine - clear enough and (2) anything other than 100% complete information/clarity/details is no better. A false choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 13 15:25:13 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2024 19:25:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56081 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t04DJ-0006sg-80 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 15:25:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35920) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t03Ox-0003al-5w for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:33:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t03MV-0000eB-8q; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 14:30:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=SJsa+2ailkyl2Gef9+QCcrz7fZepeMvORhrJZoCIjUw=; b=qDC0obgDH3QR4TV5YTTI EAIL4Rm0BlxduAAJVqs4X+KJnDJwBePDYvF72vjtzgn4NYrx0p4rcIyObGTUAyQZLSQDdizX8qp14 rLVcZ+fwXYnEZNVPg6Zmsmo27NfAJgHki/gZHt0JrUkR27fjO+Fe4yZPzceSZ5JUgybCFEEX0Tefk jkZZbFG9XpE7ISyVxSnxyO+2VKQjkD7//XVca874C5bInxwna9Z4H42kdxwG19S/+fISfjZ8/aIGw uwtrE7eZbxGapBF5Gez0+sYrBACAPLpwi+stM9YO/xzFabd+indRhXF4kzE9RntVmgfaEBQ7Tz9TP DYWHA0KD/xiLfQ==; Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 21:30:31 +0300 Message-Id: <868qurua7s.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 13 Oct 2024 17:01:04 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "michael_heerdegen@web.de" , > "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 17:01:04 +0000 > > > It's short and clear, but it's inaccurate. E.g., how to define > > "content newer" when both files have the same content (like if one of > > them is a copy of the other)? > > That and other details should be available from > `file-attribute-modification-time', if important at > all (which is why it can be good to point to the doc > of that attribute). Except that we also have set-file-times, which can make the file seem as if it was "last modified" at a different time. > (elisp) `File Attributes': > 5. The time of last modification as a list of four integers > (as above) ('file-attribute-modification-time'). This > is the last time when the file's contents were modified. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The problem here is with the term "contents were modified". It is not explained, and its naïve interpretation will lead to inaccurate conclusions, for example when a file was copied. You can deny the complexity as much as you want, and you can quote text from documentation as long as you want, but the simple fact is that the concept of being "newer" is not easy to explain in detail. Alluding to file's attributes doesn't solve the problem; instead, it makes it more complicated and harder to explain without going into a very low level of how filesystems work (and that's even before we consider the differences in how the different filesystems supported by Emacs work in this regard). > You repeat that it's ALL OR NOTHING, claiming both (1) > the current doc is fine - clear enough and (2) anything > other than 100% complete information/clarity/details is > no better. I do? Then how come I changed the doc string at least twice in the recent days? 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Then how come I changed the doc string at least twice in the > recent days? Good to hear. How come you haven't mentioned it in this bug thread? Why not communicate the improvement you propose, rather than just arguing that this simple doc string can't possibly make clear all of the complex details (which no one's suggested is needed to improve this doc string)? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 13 22:31:24 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2024 02:31:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33784 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0Ark-0000I4-FR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:31:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0Arf-0000Hi-UC for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:31:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t0ApB-00083V-E9; Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:28:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=2R2XNGzk6SihrRO3DuyWnpEdSYtt2VC8Xbtm0/KGSFo=; b=QXR34bJO2OBS bnV1seeuqECMN6NfEVTITY+oPe/YHHeubyqdd+gMNwxmE8blEbFO1Od468LN2Wvr7hOU9YxwkojHN xTBMBzqHEnSh4pbtmx04z7dFcgcN9Gsv6hokWT/rCDKQ2bdyyfDSFpvHEegD3KdOg278IAJOsismO 37ZzvwlOzSy1ND2vgTCio0y0iCVgco2nUZcsgJJfusBg/Q7hpTarxXpOO1rbI7bM35T6l7LBHCD3E 0I2b96XNUFBKciukf1/50LchTVjoi4XsQ47e+VRB5TiV4NFZXBkk5jZwzqN/mRVirizEiIPgnGpPM s7xPTZsPN95OF5Dsw+U0Yg==; Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2024 05:28:40 +0300 Message-Id: <8634kzto2v.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:23:20 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <868qurua7s.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "michael_heerdegen@web.de" , > "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2024 22:23:20 +0000 > > > I do? Then how come I changed the doc string at least twice in the > > recent days? > > Good to hear. > > How come you haven't mentioned it in this bug thread? I did, actually. > Why not communicate the improvement you propose, > rather than just arguing that this simple doc > string can't possibly make clear all of the complex > details (which no one's suggested is needed to > improve this doc string)? I did communicate that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 14 21:10:35 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2024 01:10:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47985 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0W55-0004Pv-H0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2024 21:10:35 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:53563) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0W53-0004O5-2n for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2024 21:10:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1728954600; x=1729559400; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=vtWQLGJp6d3BRCsrjSTzJuyHtZ0b9i+IqrWWFNEPAuQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=RJmet1oo4Y4Md/vzUbxL4CGWlsfi2/5tVBWeY2P68yNXBLlDp+f6SwM7uDK5ZXwf P4cjO7pnF+sYVpPJ3AAK22UCCOIXuLqhQnoCUYZNcKv6ZXvemNo0iPpzFPHXDtR/L dF9PK6wXesceYHDmWQQnQ+ty0t83MK/G6cEAbNf+tfIG8MpvzrO1UDBl5ZMjX12CB g8Gu3SlF5xcYLpq0QRzXQ49guY66GB9XiFTmOWTA0ODeP0ZEd52gJE2Do7VEmiY/r voIgxz4U6P3qCrk5CRFuCX08u8tgifAfZLMH7KKGWwdIRlXWtptLDdnsEZzN3Bd/L N/m44qID7KRlN/4IVQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M6HG8-1t2k401IzI-008LxC; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 03:10:00 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 13 Oct 2024 18:31:26 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 03:10:56 +0200 Message-ID: <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lxfMtyk4x3kVEbUpEl/p/fFQnQ9o/nsx5qoBLE3F379QifZmhVT SN8TNVawa54kWPH8F5n2xM6M5FBQvsFk8M2dnLrCFNYvP2uJZwnCE/lOzH4Mg1VvTzjKwet ailoYcKImckNCYrjC9ZZQlIeKv3GxFcJKFlPOnAi9QC7lSnW47DqtXG7gkWIB8sSNEx9S7Z 34NQAgDdz1JdpaBcARs2g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/e76O83jTGU=;ZfSvpfOUQHsdUzY7n4II6omK6dq Oth+pwCmqDPkDG57913g1VcLFAeYEcqJVhaqpmrc4at3fBj1wUnhiyJzdM0O/owG0dR1JNcC+ k1stadJDVqzrZTiqAAjYZfAdFjXB7/J/TINEwoOBdVd9JjLH6MyNTD3mzOeoZrxabK1CU4hs9 OExCMRWepCEsehxvwGFbggNJ8CNtk2mV3Gp0/1WKNYIgneWtMtubdL/uTyi0Q5VdPNw9n8Z1h GvF+J+50a3AnaQYUHUnkDjTVk6TGX+AC74HO5LGnPpYjnsSS1BNhWzNFFmv9eouE2liVZPpNY eaK5LpclRVNmWHH9VjucpibfcgVbv53UTa9ZQrcIYt2Q37QgwCX83DPq+zYR029yYQvB35ikV pwHt9JuZcAisYUT9/cJVBitxFORkIYzhONJTY3JA25+j2jFIurRBeWTCq9SimVYNalJ/ATTMk rAIBuEFQvlHsI3STYfMQEWyaM1ijItbCEdoUFxY3TX/W29nOf574WiuNaW+ek4cDBluMPhYcM qBCPoPFd2cUmsYW7WBddwdYmG/a9r6S+hsuLOXBUTmXTkmkvlRitp9pY2fNupikxAdeOciHCS k9jWwG1TyhSvKiUofGnfjHlSlvyQXKsiDgmbenSAbcojDyQt75Eja4DwGkzS17Z7Bk0TlpkPd MIS4ol2Rs5Gx0WP8Q4YjtkYYqn5jUISRgsam1mb0ya/Q6JA9hTMfnVuBRlbC2pbA1E5nw2KB4 ro7MkeKMASkGMcx7pnL4mwYcP+Pq3QDBiU0Jz8atkzRiNeDsUsT9tXZ08KGo58ro/oxYdFwtt jpi94lK0Buj/z3IuRx7xXDNg== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > > "Return t if content of FILE1 is newer than content of FILE2." > > > > Short and clear. > > It's short and clear, but it's inaccurate. E.g., how to define > "content newer" when both files have the same content (like if one of > them is a copy of the other)? Would it be less problematic to refer to "the time when the file has been last saved"? I think this comes close to the actual meaning, doesn't refer to internals, and also suggest the intended semantics for the existing use cases (auto-save files, source vs. compiled files, etc.). Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 15 09:46:32 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2024 13:46:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54558 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0hse-0003fT-Cb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:46:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54618) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0hsc-0003fE-E8 for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:46:30 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t0hsE-0005BJ-AB; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:46:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Dzbzg0uBeU1X4qW2U6at0paX2V7UUD3Fmgs7FiPdDn8=; b=kPCNL3vOGuXf 7eTerIo6+IcCiUM6y6A362095DSQ1+JxMSY7cBwyVL0GOdfwenFjhewzWXeVkW7594T9+2DazLOh0 3I1HER9J782ejWl0OEOmPnmENrDVuahR7uusd/vNMOlBurifzUgY6ctKh8yHvooVbqn3NgZF8NYT1 3fBXlF5Oth6EVdCRFMhh6o7ybxKqejVdSI2rEsXvb839bNphdhrRHnGJ87oJe/rstGrCsYb6+XYKi gPMy+E940vloxWfQ06Ef1zIhAM3mW+fNUo9Ofp721zwpid910jtig1B9u7iCRBZk0of5YLgC/RG8a S033seDQSJqTorLnwvAk9A==; Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:46:03 +0300 Message-Id: <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Tue, 15 Oct 2024 03:10:56 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Drew Adams , 73709@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 03:10:56 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > "Return t if content of FILE1 is newer than content of FILE2." > > > > > > Short and clear. > > > > It's short and clear, but it's inaccurate. E.g., how to define > > "content newer" when both files have the same content (like if one of > > them is a copy of the other)? > > Would it be less problematic to refer to "the time when the file has > been last saved"? "Last saved" assumes the file is edited, but this function doesn't care whether a file has been edited. "Last written to" might be better. But the problem for which I find no good solution is that there are ways to make the filesystem lie to us about when was file last written to: use set-file-times in Emacs or the 'touch' shell command or anything similar. Observe: ~$ ls -l --full-time foo -rwxrwxrwx 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:02.980000000 -0400 foo ~$ ls -l --time=birth --full-time foo -rw-rw-rw- 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:02.980000000 -0400 foo ~$ ls -l --time=ctime --full-time foo -rw-rw-rw- 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:02.980000000 -0400 foo ~$ cp -p foo bar ~$ ls -l --time=birth --full-time bar -rwxrwxrwx 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 09:21:17.744000000 -0400 bar* ~$ ls -l --full-time bar -rwxrwxrwx 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:02.980000000 -0400 bar* So by copying a file while preserving its "mtime" we made the copy appear as if its last modification time was _before_ the file was created! The same could be done using "touch -t foo". How do we explain that? Btw, Emacs doesn't let us access the file's creation time, even on filesystems which support that. It documents the "ctime" attribute as "the time of last change to the file's attributes". Which is correct, but only on Unix: ~$ chmod a-w foo ~$ ls -l --time=ctime --full-time foo -r--r--r-- 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:42.796000000 -0400 foo* ~$ ls -l --time=birth --full-time foo -r--r--r-- 1 eliz eliz 0 2024-10-15 07:35:02.980000000 -0400 foo* The same sequence of commands on MS-Windows doesn't change "ctime": >ls -l --time=ctime --full-time foo -rw-rw-rw- 1 EliZ None 0 2024-10-15 14:36:11.201456400 +0300 foo >chmod a-w foo >ls -l --time=ctime --full-time foo -r--r--r-- 1 EliZ None 0 2024-10-15 14:36:11.201456400 +0300 foo > ls -l --full-time test-stat -rw-rw-rw- 1 EliZ None 0 2024-10-15 14:36:11.201456400 +0300 foo So on Windows, chmod changes neither the last-written time nor the last-attribute-change time (NTFS, the Windows filesystem, doesn't track time of attribute changes at all). And I'm guessing there are other filesystems (SMB, NFS, etc.) which have similar idiosyncrasies. On MS-Windows "ctime" is the file's creation time, which is why many people think that "ctime" is "creation time" on other systems as well. So these are the conceptual difficulties we bump into when we go down to this low level. 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There's no reason to go down to a low level to fix this doc bug for `file-newer-than-file-p'. Your discussion of details might be valuable for some other doc changes, but it's not necessary to go into such detail for the doc of this predicate. A simple improvement of this doc shouldn't be a problem. Let not the perfect become the enemy of the good. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 15 10:52:35 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2024 14:52:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56083 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0iuZ-0007KM-CD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:52:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34456) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0iuX-0007KA-Mj for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:52:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t0iu8-0007mI-06; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 10:52:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=LGYfYIEZXwF3x8dR1ZLkT1tAO7XcYWQyQ9S//HAMd9Q=; b=TC81JsWgEVQ3 cIWpBcf6uUqSLFQ63E4uIqey8P1upLwa9RJvS+XmS6XxGqetZuWu06+2kSOixvKqBd3eYycxNblgb jgAzty2CAZTsLi4oK3cHsaQYbifkuUE1k0bgx0FJ55zwfUD3wjd78W/yrFh/Cu7Pon3QL+cCKy2db bG5iVIxSL6Gkl8LJsDSu1zSMNASMgHnySlU9G+JEJrxhiKA0nmDu8PkgWY5xIM4iNHT+OgNxDS2nx Bjwg2FWj6n0jTr1DBxYC/fdzqUeBVgu6HnYkyIyM4BAUwUl85nvAIEapDe+H4nB/fyO52Ewe3YpDV +AP+/dgY5Hx9tc77aMwFZg==; Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 17:51:52 +0300 Message-Id: <86o73lqv07.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:20:21 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:20:21 +0000 > > > So these are the conceptual difficulties we bump into when we go down > > to this low level. > > There's no reason to go down to a low level > to fix this doc bug for `file-newer-than-file-p'. You are missing the point of my post. The point was not to say this should be in the doc string, the point was to explain why "time of the last write" is still not accurate in some quite widespread cases. The low-level details were meant to explain the subtleties, so that if someone has ideas how to describe that _without_ getting into details, but also without being inaccurate, could understand the problem to solve. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 15 12:08:53 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2024 16:08:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56611 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0k6P-0003MF-Ez for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:08:53 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-f171.google.com ([209.85.160.171]:52723) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0k6N-0003Lz-17 for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:08:52 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4608564478bso4469231cf.1 for <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:08:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1729008447; x=1729613247; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VdPz9Gq2ycicNFNb3pij+VEHtHj8A/Amzg1BDz1wBgA=; b=Njycwx1i0hc/Lb1WGYKTHx3bzTkrouU0uNjUHOk3unxt59vvsNg1jRuK+tLgsMuCDO ACz3k+frw/9xyKmvZE1FqwnxfeC0MyD6yE5Zer2lRFqWFCMmi+Fo4bCvfhX27rEQZR2m Q8ZjxvYfwxG0DPs4AeqtHt8PhYF4sLgSF64KMUrgfMcXS446m3CMWf05H0d9r4ZmXnIs EMZuI9efqJzcs/ZDieT6Wwpgey1LDy6xjUzNCgD9hlqOTy0tWXhPuoR3/MCqv3LMyHP0 oiB98vsVmmSf3HfOyvBjc5yu3LqOokPHCRI1gXzM8BQFCfWm1So8StWqOZapyQ/LFskX 3J7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1729008447; x=1729613247; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VdPz9Gq2ycicNFNb3pij+VEHtHj8A/Amzg1BDz1wBgA=; b=rLWrX+cmhyHUrtYvX2Wc0fcACzmWV+byNzUfMmxu4uSrJYpzSeSV1pY8q7fiE+TUN9 WN5ArQG0ViuotB2b4YyhsaCM/okCkdS4U9fCah2HEt6etcjg5NvXBV4g9p1IjKz9rUiI 2hcgKjw43IkXemihNbAcL5aEbccABOc+zKFkT4RpFwyuWH6mHMuYq7MeEhgm5XMO7eW9 k34OlnlU/RQCaa9R7Vvefu4mNefco2WXnOlI6iL8tY6QvmExXmwgFZx6T9gz0Cd+phTn m2kp+lIEmErfxfLzyOAD9VaZsp6XsE3g6G6yiNnBFyoPE9ZdVoVOgFVvO2fbqAoBl2+f Cx3w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWtFS/E+xo18D+p1F6N1zGKmMet0JwPCbKvgi0/0veaxd/VLDMf8r83gC3BEAcYXb6GjFBGSA==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxVccU0c+X8/049kpSePDLo1vAn+mbxX9I+OEg8lRRX1XTqehxJ aSqhLF40OkhRbZQNc0b89Aym8ZA5nfegllGXmNOCGiVXpa/iL+UpVVQC8PRUwtRQdAQpoTuFt7C IGCbVht5ZDztDMNDGY/gX/XweftzZ8HPw X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGG373/bv7GJtBhJX6mEtZYeWt2ELMlpaBTkA2e2PpnLj9ym4IVdWUChvVY36If3Ju+B+9yTugiC01+usqY5GM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1387:b0:3e4:d8c6:2eee with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3e5d2327351mr5924424b6e.38.1729004476648; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 08:01:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> <86o73lqv07.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <86o73lqv07.fsf@gnu.org> From: Ship Mints Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 11:01:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a55d92062485393e" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000a55d92062485393e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps something simple like "This function returns t if the file filename1 is newer than file filename2*, as reported by your operating system.*" On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 10:52=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote= : > > From: Drew Adams > > CC: "73709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org> > > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:20:21 +0000 > > > > > So these are the conceptual difficulties we bump into when we go down > > > to this low level. > > > > There's no reason to go down to a low level > > to fix this doc bug for `file-newer-than-file-p'. > > You are missing the point of my post. The point was not to say this > should be in the doc string, the point was to explain why "time of the > last write" is still not accurate in some quite widespread cases. The > low-level details were meant to explain the subtleties, so that if > someone has ideas how to describe that _without_ getting into details, > but also without being inaccurate, could understand the problem to > solve. > > > > --000000000000a55d92062485393e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perhaps something simple like "This function returns t if the file = filename1 is newer than file filename2, as reported by your operating sy= stem."

On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 10:52=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii= <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> From: Drew Adams <= drew.adams@oracl= e.com>
> CC: "7= 3709@debbugs.gnu.org" <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:20:21 +0000
>
> > So these are the conceptual difficulties we bump into when we go = down
> > to this low level.
>
> There's no reason to go down to a low level
> to fix this doc bug for `file-newer-than-file-p'.

You are missing the point of my post.=C2=A0 The point was not to say this should be in the doc string, the point was to explain why "time of the=
last write" is still not accurate in some quite widespread cases.=C2= =A0 The
low-level details were meant to explain the subtleties, so that if
someone has ideas how to describe that _without_ getting into details,
but also without being inaccurate, could understand the problem to
solve.



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Tue, 15 Oct 2024 18:23:23 +0200 From: Michael Albinus To: Ship Mints Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: (Ship Mints's message of "Tue, 15 Oct 2024 11:01:04 -0400") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> <86o73lqv07.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 18:23:19 +0200 Message-ID: <87ed4htjwo.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:PI0ObEAFanURf/zgrXRM6ebmnsIxjiVZJBNR65Pzuf7bohoza6/ rP+NcrN0WG7NgViaX+C2Zrqxp3OBn/XK3cOi9XCy37jCAqVT/nTqUSo/TWjTSp1S8hHFVir vMrwauR/u+N+rUH9Uk3czf2p+z+lhmMcnqpBL22Eb4acDDNvS0PwxZjllMsOQwiQLOFHewW 1wW8d3O8+i+k2oIDsRIoQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:xy/Su/7d+g8=;/k3wPWJi+IDJepBSUQHPDvR4lwH FWgoxISKfHydxCrHEDgndnua7RDtTelSDDsN0wucOmkWc6VNf2VR+Qeelxf5gLV9F6BlNlYfM cRyMHWYLV/Fem01clc3FetjSaG+OPnmrbguHFBNVF5M3d3SbiQhaQzCyvCcbynp1ksGUCmsxO hto1Cke5MHk6RRVTtdVa6FDuQc4pVWsX5gORrru1ZoJbw2XvTqgZ+jakQ0HtiA2l/FuAvs9wL X9TFQpX0GC9QqfJYQcgaSa9sJR9lfopJoJjMikIRQIuRHbMhx8w+pqbG6IXnyfmIy6skVY+CN 0ybF0msqAJ784ECoIcyV94Cf6HYjHTLgX0HcqaSvZKXWUqKC7VvH5YJifx34Q9796K6bs1VCg NLbrCJ37lA6YT/VqfhNWAOJrgDQHXJGOc1Vushl5a6syxYWvow4ai8Go+VbzV7nUX17qWbGCT XENfVgzBd4bKkLOlhwu05Sw+C4DZSsgBeTmH/nV6A0/EkDGk2EiT9P4FW5FOrYmU8C11Kn5jc MmEv7Y/t+VbSZy7CE0/lP0yiJ5I6HdrVIkIzHyYgosFe+zCWVoqFMFKH/Ph8j8HvzKZtHA32t qyWVcpL5sN+rXfGbrqXYOYEt56Aa2nNuEqhCPXhzd2zqGhUul7DDx2Y8IwSk5cRWH4+OqSPYy MMDBieXAtjJAqoAIkVumJ6RxTC0PhxV1nrx5K2rBLzepmUUEnYRXSHjhEKtm3f0oVmOYVwxyD MUyqr1CGINLSkmFvskbw61WAQpFxwFx4kh104wVfjudCj7Cx2TnCuumWiGgpv7qOZi6bYO37X +/owMRX8lKfTPoS5gZgQNrow== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, Eli Zaretskii , 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Ship Mints writes: > Perhaps something simple like "This function returns t if the file > filename1 is newer than file filename2, as reported by your operating > system." In the Tramp case, "as reported by your operating system" is not correct, because the report comes from another but "your" operating system. Perhaps we could say --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- This function returns t if file FILE1 is newer than file FILE2, as reported by the file system. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Best regards, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 15 12:26:36 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2024 16:26:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56670 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0kNX-0004Eg-W7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:26:36 -0400 Received: from mail-ua1-f54.google.com ([209.85.222.54]:56476) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0kNW-0004EL-Fe for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:26:35 -0400 Received: by mail-ua1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-84fd01c9defso1365762241.0 for <73709@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:26:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1729009510; x=1729614310; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=p1RRyFyofDe9s7Sz3J10jWt3XEy46r+l/dwrikafvmE=; b=STax+ga2/ShTppIJ83FtFh7L4I9iJwbQdavxtipqZi6wFEHy2Mq5+Mq4drg+V4O7OV h+rXaJbLYaZBmPHSiGFfuq4Bff9g4WBU1c6VEuxqGpVa1fO/rXD379WShgW8KgvaTvcr y5jzDgG0Q961tGAdOB9W+xNFhyTJ8KqwE8juNiFCINo/G3Sa48pMBraxAsqbyVdYLspx qgDvU65rBxy1/KoRx66X0m/Nref3EEHxtxPcfjDJNtZY0vsHKAFAo/WjJreUUhEd2mfS 1iS/j6ov83efucZagIGTMvsjO2YnMLTXLGIHSAipWNfjCEVvTJ2X/RF/oXWpwu+aFBlx g8hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1729009510; x=1729614310; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=p1RRyFyofDe9s7Sz3J10jWt3XEy46r+l/dwrikafvmE=; b=oRADnyAATLZNS6KUh4NL38j0TKL/9kS6WwtV7pukwdBZuGEsiAFJ/4CeJBstF79oR+ C4Q2xVwXCxB13BCGn32j6AUyTpv/oigL/PJVmxKrijW05XbJKGji21vGzwQYbbNsEzVg XxA1hsf5xXUZnIGDqlBsTsdgDNhldX/UyA7Cj4U7jLazRf2rlGSzzGgHk38GXOnxcNvB IPP8W5vU/9ffU/PZG8wRSkNw+NQ2iLmUKO6dYZf+loQIrG7aadYzOwRhNKZpGYgXD0Uz 7HA5jGPT+/ZeT58PlI9CqTpcILvVr2zcaZq7m1z+MIWLS5jFxiLjGKHKS7T2TFW6dz8O eGFw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUwPGy3bVBCcBFlMwMx5NTj6U9P5/DozMqLOcT7ja4ZdosjBaVbotIaZSXBzgaLwDD65bFQIw==@debbugs.gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyykaL5Mf6uyfc/zrsdcikYb6r/Q0N9gk8IAYvILCVPQuChFkZJ nei2R5ff+w1N6+6SjSq0u1eoJUzyYTKWxrc6VuOc8KtBKdbTXX3yx7juZ6cVkNsecnYm8J3P3wO +xARDyH6hqRKCCIWiPs3JFR/eKw8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHjze38dxtmNoXU2mdC1Y2mAtu8LL442mwi6VPNyk+LC9T61gaZ15GRayhKNy6rHk4ToAyOhmkpRa0Dt1va50s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:1688:b0:50a:ca33:b033 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-50d8d217566mr1256823e0c.4.1729009510420; Tue, 15 Oct 2024 09:25:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> <86o73lqv07.fsf@gnu.org> <87ed4htjwo.fsf@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <87ed4htjwo.fsf@gmx.de> From: Ship Mints Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 12:24:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' To: Michael Albinus Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ae997d0624866503" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, Eli Zaretskii , 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000ae997d0624866503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or "as reported by the file system, which may be remote." In any case, this seems like something Emacs users, aka programmers which most of us are, should be willing to understand at a minimum if they really want to reason about the details. On Tue, Oct 15, 2024 at 12:23=E2=80=AFPM Michael Albinus wrote: > Ship Mints writes: > > > Perhaps something simple like "This function returns t if the file > > filename1 is newer than file filename2, as reported by your operating > > system." > > In the Tramp case, "as reported by your operating system" is not > correct, because the report comes from another but "your" operating > system. Perhaps we could say > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > This function returns t if file FILE1 is newer than file FILE2, as > reported by the file system. > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > Best regards, Michael. > --000000000000ae997d0624866503 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Or "as reported by the file system, which may be remote."

In any case, this= seems like something Emacs users, aka programmers which most of us are, sh= ould be willing to understand at a minimum if they really want to reason ab= out the details.

<= br>
On Tue,= Oct 15, 2024 at 12:23=E2=80=AFPM Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> wrote:
Ship Mints <shipmints@gmail.com> writes:=

> Perhaps something simple like "This function returns t if the fil= e
> filename1 is newer than file filename2, as reported by your operating<= br> > system."

In the Tramp case, "as reported by your operating system" is not<= br> correct, because the report comes from another but "your" operati= ng
system. Perhaps we could say

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
This function returns t if file FILE1 is newer than file FILE2, as
reported by the file system.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Best regards, Michael.
--000000000000ae997d0624866503-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 16 00:11:21 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2024 04:11:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58101 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0vNY-0008QD-LY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 00:11:20 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:53779) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0vNV-0008Pu-Qa for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 00:11:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1729051846; x=1729656646; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=hmtd8Iy/3y5Y/tYZ8ip+1Kk0BO7qW4HQcpEymvD5v7Y=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=LzA7Z+N15AW57O+ILFkPjL1+isD9e46FZijCPChrQpaeB0YAKIZdZ3zRELTzzytP GTJQp0GXdTlfzHxzNL2YErIcbv3hS4whZ4rn9xrvCDAB0UslEAJu/2fn3I9bBdb9a Cu75/ZIBMYYHOPW1YtfVy5mnhVekQpsKaB1EolO+78EYDiKwb7bJImQdwFUBZOBN1 AFfExKe76nhddC8fZOzTXEmtz4mA9mnepPQDoKY7X+rLpBl8PXEF1e0PYjoK5BZHV TzoTIBl3WM2e5aVhQ0h8XoSNIhpalP7aPkzRYpQJIlJ62sf6EfRKjLrF3IZgmud4h JHb2t+1Ez8980KZ7iw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mvspv-1tq05R25W3-00sy8f; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 06:10:46 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 15 Oct 2024 16:46:03 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 06:11:41 +0200 Message-ID: <87o73kbsaq.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jtwqWRHCJhXGIhyTWCIbqyCIdk3bduY/CajNzNEZES3OPDMu5hK RglOwxdXVOxY7IeIaQ48l0ESRLNa4jUq+VQTqPNf7TtlphVv48kfDsPoA8LgwPZIFwVRYE8 V6NJdDpdRb5RSBXqNtudxw+g2nmxhFH3iBcaX1nxjXLNh3BwiT2Lc5CkEWmrkDK4y9dXRCU bOEjKibIBuNBJ5/hBhaGg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:aaqRaA92xf4=;Xkp6pd2RCWKaMQvOx0ajAvhbmyM kDAnhPxbn0oGXS8ZZXzFPQmcUw+uxqfZ6Z8OIgqFKOYySW34XGNvmUC1SfLHPB0xRIOXXwfhT Nh6WmbN9aluT28xLjtp+tb2PVqp+SGR9GcPPBajw+YhXmmINFKoOyaQvsq32rT1oanfAkddzW qkvTxx1Fv7qTi2IygK7/ZUZVGngUSauBolwSey5Igu2/N5VNVOc9i387fUAfpdy/YlH6K7971 K6gKnBsqUWut6Dbrkw6sD9rk39MdMIRFqhygdRae+Reig0Pk2XgckTGDzQW5SBp8s+TF/Z+bX Hkeqm/HkTQXWJBCta7ruDbuI2ZtjiwGQTEfoEryMZcEHRyJiBBQkFi3H6bEq/6Uto96SR7K2J Qd3Ggpy7e88dyElDjInhcjbRxCF3V5BD5f9wRp1CINLOwqU/1FKm+A/Wc08ocTqU5j8H+Qy9L Uww/4b44A95Htp7z0OQBgQR71YqQ04rIepHZGJQloe1TLwKyQOmQI1H0rvDtGko+aHd5YjQ1k ObGHk3onNSwaKV/eefqlr+CsARlZFxmPRY6ZIYlWVqFHU78ayYb47TbZzO5f/JOHdJwuO5Q0q LZBLZlll1n6B3har817UkHKUKItBkAjlfwAaeDQYsMhyLULdhzWJhC3WNkRJ0Neorx20EyPbY TgwbRDweVM5I3s8HImek8EjhJFzDJGVxF9WK4fmtGbfsRr9qoVR1FRkSqtjcUZESpuoq+NQlu 0I34ZWJXYXlsyvGVRbSkztdUGlPfRbHun+E+6wZjctLasw32gGcNJLbY7Inet2cK5R9Y2fwWg 8l24zaoO7S5eCBjIX/qgIo715Xc5r7huqWedjpx9KF1ug= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > "Last saved" assumes the file is edited, but this function doesn't > care whether a file has been edited. "Last written to" might be > better. Ok - "last written" then. > But the problem for which I find no good solution is that there are > ways to make the filesystem lie to us about when was file last written > to: use set-file-times in Emacs or the 'touch' shell command or > anything similar. Sure. But I thought we want to explain the abstraction? So, if you don't want to lie, why not say "in general this means the times when the files were last written" or so? As you said we _don't_ want to go to the level of implementation and file system specific details - so why discuss them at all? There are always details a short description doesn't cover ("newer" also didn't cover them). Of course you can add that "details depend on capabilities and features of the used file system and the chosen implementation (Tramp)". We do say similar things in other docstrings, too. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 16 01:54:37 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2024 05:54:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58257 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0wzV-0005Ap-0w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 01:54:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52928) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t0wzT-0005Aa-2v for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 01:54:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t0wz3-0003ra-JT; Wed, 16 Oct 2024 01:54:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=qILbXDUVWvMTFP/3YgJrqvZvNpjWogmri11v/KBF3tI=; b=EHK2k+Xp4Eol pCqkd6X5x3woH1/Cg9wRm4HABawmSMfEZ95CXiGBWZ4Mqhf5RhFIa8mUQ/2dS+u4mNR7af4TxyBVh qPoqCKphe/Gw00UOypkb+urmNneRdWzLBbihWS98f9I2SO4VM9rwC4006OhZ00bewEs5sqflimknG ROBWzUk9aBF42GbxdC9pVkwiPBF3resr3MO4D5CkMG9+r/cbbl1F97IVjcivyvUxw9GYcIFnNiPvz JMe2eN9bDeyD/wailR2c1i2dQeKJTcwbm6kBN/0hxjkRnhVfqgRKjjWGrl56Gp87+L/u1kpxLmdNT 1L5e2fnLgGIZMmMf2L6cJg==; Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 08:54:07 +0300 Message-Id: <867ca8r3sw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87o73kbsaq.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 16 Oct 2024 06:11:41 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> <87o73kbsaq.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 73709@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2024 06:11:41 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > "Last saved" assumes the file is edited, but this function doesn't > > care whether a file has been edited. "Last written to" might be > > better. > > Ok - "last written" then. > > > But the problem for which I find no good solution is that there are > > ways to make the filesystem lie to us about when was file last written > > to: use set-file-times in Emacs or the 'touch' shell command or > > anything similar. > > Sure. But I thought we want to explain the abstraction? So, if you > don't want to lie, why not say "in general this means the times when the > files were last written" or so? As you said we _don't_ want to go to > the level of implementation and file system specific details - so why > discuss them at all? There are always details a short description > doesn't cover ("newer" also didn't cover them). > > Of course you can add that "details depend on capabilities and features > of the used file system and the chosen implementation (Tramp)". We do > say similar things in other docstrings, too. Two issues: . "last written to" is incorrect if that time stamp was modified by set-file-times and similar methods . the interpretation of mtime to mean "newer" (per the function's name) is problematic/incorrect when a file is copied with the KEEP-TIME argument of copy-file (and similar facilities of other commands, like 'cp') I'm asking whether we care about these subtleties. E.g., someone might claim that the second issue above means that file-newer-than-file-p has a bug. The current doc string says simply that last-modification times are compared, and I wonder if that is not better left alone. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 17 21:32:13 2024 Received: (at 73709) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Oct 2024 01:32:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36442 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t1bqe-0008PZ-OG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Oct 2024 21:32:13 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:57733) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t1bqc-0008PJ-V6 for 73709@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Oct 2024 21:32:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1729215098; x=1729819898; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=ZDcKOKIkESc+LAQVPWWgbF6DwlD9pGkpVk3asj4jemk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=QqrfNSZ9mjyJd2hibOleFZbUWeBh/edJ0IoiB/ucVCUpXXaP58wOyMJPuuczoHTt rUrKlmu0FiCaJpUBlBoeo6ndaVK8CTeLB+vfRnr84EPHN7+GOsONIDcy1hYRsNrd3 kb8BT6aTwydmwyK+sgryEh+/8MKF4vt18w7G7hTnfoxzD41Xs/vjbpvchT45Rp+7V PuU6rtkbsYyTmxbCDsvMVoajz4bFB21Py2LbulyIENPNmu3VSBib5a5yC5+8cGlsg AU6WgTdRtFBETIjfFPKicc8aVHQRqdwmDX4tC+dep82pGAD+PImRrr6P5ap94/l0h PNTR4o+JLhb7uuvBDQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.75.138.198]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MOUxo-1tIhe80Ac2-00PvoT; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:31:38 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#73709: 29.4; Doc of `file-newer-than-file-p' In-Reply-To: <867ca8r3sw.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 16 Oct 2024 08:54:07 +0300") References: <86h69msbhi.fsf@gnu.org> <87set6aytj.fsf@web.de> <864j5l4d2x.fsf@gnu.org> <87v7y0kgl7.fsf@web.de> <861q0o2xbe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyk7trma.fsf@web.de> <86y12vyygh.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzee88m9.fsf@web.de> <86ttdhyarp.fsf@gnu.org> <87jzed6iql.fsf@web.de> <867cacvb3k.fsf@gnu.org> <86h69gt3xt.fsf@gnu.org> <87msj6tbkv.fsf@web.de> <86ttddqy1w.fsf@gnu.org> <87o73kbsaq.fsf@web.de> <867ca8r3sw.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:32:32 +0200 Message-ID: <87h69aci1b.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:T5MYgSDRJ4ZZjygqskkIheVEjl0X3S9LEBB6HOse5HmTLD5Q6Qa VjLt0n12JhxpSWFBFWTVVbyyYBJ0JZ6IhR1OYe3kTkQwWyz63yyETl4TmLqvK+VJcDdui32 9jI24p14zG9+yZ5QRra2vl/WStzIWOrazz0wnoISetQsosrXbORxmJqKzKCtjCKaCSqArux l5Q0Owy/t5pCJAkDTtIGA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:1TUWxoRF3a4=;XGf3ozvrpPy2/LJvNjQhss8AYva 9/Q+eUhh0URr+RFcyXi964blp9dJwEWJVaAcNGxZIdMWuEMqasAoogL4XuXiKLNwk5UB/kFkq YXbHQXnrO55zncYMGRrskmvIVfgA9thSWfaOc6MFxkI7WWfccYtgfMPFroE5Rt65N6+pud0Yg T3FLJjyzHaG2Y1vdbPYZh1IFczlaR6jkf3uxD9Nz0c/GNakkAhhQcqMhqWiYsRPZGpziomcLS Fxb7JIOjRLuMNaIMERmkjpz9uDawbc9FF6qL2eyMhFw89tv/VlGr8QOiVG5y4SVNOqWp1xHqD Ey0R8PfBgTwyekzj/AHt6iG4a5gFQlHpzY/IOjPHAGEq07c2cIDw50UMOo9h9QDTXcNo5gwxF tzNvYh9IHUfH8D03tax0iMtPmKN3B3Syqkh3cnpZ1AJwRLqP0XN+YsGUNplu1BGnyBhWHPWNX jBeW3hSk6eDcq8ULONcCHoGRyEgAMqcPRILy2yjrSdRRDcmkQpbt4077O6APX/cvIzQSelJKV d/o6q9alR4l099bK1LLFsQdPipW1DGu7ocLL4lCHAjKI4cFTrTC6v2lguZ6UCFsh1hainA9KE HsqzNBtVADauZDZ7BefYZuaBUMlrEGEQ6dsqfw/wVMeu8B/eo6JKxSW5gZhze738qC9N5oAV8 THrXogjDkKVnQv1W6nsfj6nCQe8Yf2u6Z4t08XiEfz7ATtwjEGe8H7UCAN+azP9rlKefvkEkS h7k1yoNG7FBF7Z7JdE+cITJjc+gWtqldi5+u4Ql2MzZpA3xiVqpWaTjQHRQgfVftNOeCTo4MX X4uL8gLqwbRfyrkQ6o18hOow== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 73709 Cc: 73709@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Two issues: > > . "last written to" is incorrect if that time stamp was modified by > set-file-times and similar methods > . the interpretation of mtime to mean "newer" (per the function's > name) is problematic/incorrect when a file is copied with the > KEEP-TIME argument of copy-file (and similar facilities of other > commands, like 'cp') > > I'm asking whether we care about these subtleties. E.g., someone > might claim that the second issue above means that > file-newer-than-file-p has a bug. I would say that these things are means available to instruct the file system which times it should report. They don't necessarily collide with the concept. > The current doc string says simply that last-modification times are > compared, and I wonder if that is not better left alone. Or, we could also use that as a clarification of the description of the concept on an internal level? But anyway, if you have a good feeling about the current state I'm also fine with it. Michael. From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:18:07 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2024 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator