From unknown Sat Sep 13 13:03:38 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#7367 <7367@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#7367 <7367@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Restore wdired comments removed by the author 5 years ago; also old commentary removed from ffap 13 years ago Reply-To: bug#7367 <7367@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 20:03:38 +0000 retitle 7367 Restore wdired comments removed by the author 5 years ago; als= o old commentary removed from ffap 13 years ago reassign 7367 emacs submitter 7367 "Drew Adams" severity 7367 wishlist tag 7367 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 10 15:43:21 2010 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2010 20:43:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHVp-0003Y9-LH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:43:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHVn-0003Y3-IV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:43:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHaN-0002Zn-8l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:48:04 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:40037) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHaN-0002Zj-6Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:48:03 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=40548 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PGHaM-0001pk-6i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:48:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHaK-0002Z7-Qn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:48:02 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:53202) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PGHaK-0002YY-Lf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:48:00 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id oAAKltqJ020266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:47:57 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id oAAKQqMV017607 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:47:54 GMT Received: from abhmt004.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 766808601289421977; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:46:17 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.69) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:46:16 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.50; change logs in source code Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:46:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Thread-Index: AcuBGFQsF6qWJyjBTey+41TyUSLeuw== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) emacs -Q Visiting wdired.el, I see that this is the complete content of the `Change log:' entry: ;; Google is your friend (previous versions with complete changelogs ;; were posted to gnu.emacs.sources) Please restore the normal, helpful, user-friendly source-file change logs that were in the author's file. Emacs users should be able to get the info they need by consulting only the source code. They should not need any Internet access, in particular. This seems like just laziness on the part of Emacs development. But is also an anti-user policy. (And stop selling Google. Although I agree that googling can be helpful.) Other files have similar cop-out text. In ffap.el the `Change log:' entry tells you to go ftp the change log (and to go hunt for the place to ftp it from). Users should not need Internet access to get hold of the source-file change logs. At the very least, they should be able to visit another local file. And that file location should be clearly indicated in the source library, so a simple find-file-at-point will go there. Emacs source files contain lots of text such as `Todo list' that is less important than change-log history. Users deserve better than telling them to go search the Internet for change history. Change logs are not just for Emacs developers' internal use. They are for users. In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2010-11-09 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 10 16:36:43 2010 Received: (at 7367-quiet) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2010 21:36:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGILS-0003xm-GD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:36:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGILP-0003xg-Ag for 7367-quiet@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:36:40 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41142) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGIPy-0004uS-KL; Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:41:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <19675.4482.52573.622165@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:41:22 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 7367-quiet@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#7367: 24.0.50; change logs in source code In-Reply-To: References: X-Attribution: GM X-Mailer: VM (www.wonderworks.com/vm), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs) X-Hue: black X-Ran: r@jpmSQvT9gg|M=4)}Z">-B5q-K::W>gA:UEocU(G#);%y^iHz?pq@No\f0)sWeSE,mrS) X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7367-quiet X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) > Please restore the normal, helpful, user-friendly source-file change > logs that were in the author's file.=20 The file's author was the one who removed that text, and added the Google comment. http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/lisp/wdired.el=3Froot=3Demacs&= r1=3D1.8&r2=3D1.9&pathrev=3DMAIN 2005-04-11 Juan Le=F3n Lahoz Garc=EDa Here we see the illuminating original comments, so helpful to the user in 2010: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/lisp/wdired.el=3Frevision=3D1.= 1&root=3Demacs&view=3Dmarkup&pathrev=3DMAIN And that is the last I will say about this. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 11 11:39:06 2010 Received: (at 7367) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2010 16:39:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaAz-0003v7-Nf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:39:05 -0500 Received: from mail-bw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.214.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaAx-0003uZ-B2 for 7367@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:39:04 -0500 Received: by bwz12 with SMTP id 12so2124502bwz.3 for <7367@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mRuXxTb5wIOtNtVYje8AccB+Y3qWVnQ1cjBx6X3uGWA=; b=QBBZZv1lWTigIkEtV7tomA1ZmW4NVseuysKPPFrpW+HjdC/L4CdJ8p+AC5jH+ovV5m PubYch7pGjhEVE6bUiONsX3hcJW65cggFFZgL+0WgDrqq220lO4aEkBcNFyb7FfyI3At /qpCGxrWaJHu0dxJ87xcqUdkwBJDJrFE1z850= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IobEai8axVbp4oGhVhIve65Ak4Yh6/lg+r85FpRdrp8T5puquorTmSG3AmnnyrW8F2 KWFuonBWIcsP+8efAQxXCAKBSXaSnEyIK2bImFmi9wLlRdAX7QgeTWW7GMBA56sjioGz Em+b4QhtlnjqVINkw1JCe1R1WNXxySAZNqCm0= Received: by 10.204.113.195 with SMTP id b3mr1613033bkq.210.1289493828916; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (176.119.broadband10.iol.cz [90.177.119.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 4sm1043731bki.13.2010.11.11.08.43.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:43:47 -0800 (PST) From: =?utf-8?B?xaB0xJtww6FuIE7Em21lYw==?= To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#7367: 24.0.50; change logs in source code In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 10 Nov 2010 12:46:20 -0800") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:42:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7367 Cc: 7367@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) "Drew Adams" writes: [...] > Please restore the normal, helpful, user-friendly source-file change > logs that were in the author's file. Emacs users should be able to get > the info they need by consulting only the source code. They should not > need any Internet access, in particular. >=20=20 > This seems like just laziness on the part of Emacs development. > But is also an anti-user policy. [...] > Emacs source files contain lots of text such as `Todo list' that is less > important than change-log history. Users deserve better than telling > them to go search the Internet for change history. > > Change logs are not just for Emacs developers' internal use. > They are for users. They are neither. They're completely useless. Just to provide a different opinion: I never saw a useful `Change Log:' section in any of (quite a lot of) Elisp libraries I've seen (Emacs core or third party), so I definitely welcome their absence. It's mostly just noise, because the change descriptions alone are not very telling. I'm only interested in the kind of information you get from version control systems (i.e., commented diffs), not something like "Added feature foo" or "Fixed bug in bar". (I can see that a short summary of user-visible changes since the last version might be useful for third-party libraries, but that's obviously not what Drew has in mind here (just have a look at the humongous change logs in his own libraries :-))) FWIW, I also find `Todo:' more, not less, important than `Change Log:'. =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 11 11:59:11 2010 Received: (at 7367) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2010 16:59:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaUR-00044U-5W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:59:11 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PGaUP-00044P-Rp for 7367@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:59:10 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id oABH3s9n001757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:03:55 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id oABCUBO9001130; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:03:52 GMT Received: from abhmt021.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 770834601289495029; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:03:49 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:03:47 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "=?iso-8859-2?Q?'=A9tep=E1n_Nemec'?=" References: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#7367: 24.0.50; change logs in source code Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:03:46 -0800 Message-ID: <5DC618A15B0C46E4A3907092DCEAFA7E@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcuBv581j5uxVDJJSpuajXl0OcqijAAAZdyg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7367 Cc: 7367@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) Hey, why not give users only Internet links for the source code too while you're at it? Why bother to give them the source code for local use? Better yet, just tell them to search the Internet for it. Change log info, like any info, can be of variable quality/utility. It is info about the source code, just like comments (and diffs) are, and as such it can be useful to at least some users. Just like comments, it can inform you about implementation and design logic - the intentions behind what is there currently. The point is not that all change logs provide great info; the point is that users deserve to have the info locally, whatever it is and however useful it might be. They should not be shoved off to search the Internet. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 09 15:00:12 2011 Received: (at 7367-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2011 19:00:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qfcl9-0001Ff-HI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 15:00:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qfcl7-0001FB-Ic for 7367-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 15:00:10 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35787) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qfcl1-0007CO-Pb; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 15:00:03 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: 7367-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#7367: 24.0.50; change logs in source code References: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spook: world domination industrial espionage Exon Shell ASPIC X-Ran: Q/`q`>8R|!*BiwzvprC(3$U,vyvoc"A,}dcE2B};YvQ2Pt-%!LTZ:NJ/|Tkey/\2zAP7x$ X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 15:00:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87oc9vg6c8.fsf@gmail.com> (=?utf-8?B?IsWgdMSbcMOhbiBOxJtt?= =?utf-8?B?ZWMiJ3M=?= message of "Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:42:15 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7367-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) I see no point in keeping this report open. The author of the file was the one who removed his own comments. http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/lisp/wdired.el?root=emacs&r1=1.8&r2=1.9&pathrev=MAIN 2005-04-11 Juan Leon Lahoz Garcia The original comments can be found using VC, and aren't very useful: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/lisp/wdired.el?revision=1.1&root=emacs&view=markup&pathrev=MAIN From unknown Sat Sep 13 13:03:38 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 11:24:17 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator