GNU bug report logs - #70402
29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400

In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package
Installation", there is the following paragraph:

"To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at
startup, change the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ to ‘nil’.  You
must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before
loading the regular init file.  Currently this variable cannot be set
via Customize."

The final sentence in this paragraph says that
‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
following:

M-x customize-option RET
Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET

After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
not be possible.

-- 
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
- Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.

Message #8 received at 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3;
 Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:24:01 +0300

> From: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
> 
> In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package
> Installation", there is the following paragraph:
> 
> "To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at
> startup, change the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ to ‘nil’.  You
> must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before
> loading the regular init file.  Currently this variable cannot be set
> via Customize."
> 
> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
> ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
> following:
> 
> M-x customize-option RET
> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
> 
> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
> not be possible.

I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
must be set before reading the init file.

Message #11 received at 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation"
 description.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:16:54 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
>> 
>> 
>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
>> ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
>> following:
>> 
>> M-x customize-option RET
>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
>> 
>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
>> not be possible.

>
> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
> must be set before reading the init file.

If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than
one, for why the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ should not be an
(customizable) option:

1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can).

2. Because setting the variable via ‘customize-option’ has no effect (it
happens too late in the initialization sequence?).

If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so
anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that
"something."

-- 
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
- Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.

Message #14 received at 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
To: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation"
 description.
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:34:43 +0000

tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> From: tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
>>> ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
>>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
>>> following:
>>> 
>>> M-x customize-option RET
>>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
>>> 
>>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
>>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
>>> not be possible.
>
>>
>> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
>> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
>> must be set before reading the init file.
>
> If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than
> one, for why the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ should not be an
> (customizable) option:
>
> 1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can).
>
> 2. Because setting the variable via ‘customize-option’ has no effect (it
> happens too late in the initialization sequence?).
>
> If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so
> anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that
> "something."

When in doubt, "cannot" for Emacs usually means "will not do what you
want it to" instead of "it is not possible to", or that is at least how
I read the sentence here.  That being said, I guess the manual could be
clarified, or one could revert `package-enable-at-startup' to a regular
variable?  I am not sure what the policy on the last point is.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic on peregrine

Message #17 received at 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: tpeplt <at> gmail.com, 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation"
 description.
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 16:04:28 +0300

> From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:34:43 +0000
> 
> tpeplt <tpeplt <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
> >>> ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
> >>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
> >>> following:
> >>> 
> >>> M-x customize-option RET
> >>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
> >>> 
> >>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
> >>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
> >>> not be possible.
> >
> >>
> >> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
> >> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
> >> must be set before reading the init file.
> >
> > If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than
> > one, for why the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ should not be an
> > (customizable) option:
> >
> > 1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can).
> >
> > 2. Because setting the variable via ‘customize-option’ has no effect (it
> > happens too late in the initialization sequence?).
> >
> > If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so
> > anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that
> > "something."
> 
> When in doubt, "cannot" for Emacs usually means "will not do what you
> want it to" instead of "it is not possible to", or that is at least how
> I read the sentence here.  That being said, I guess the manual could be
> clarified, or one could revert `package-enable-at-startup' to a regular
> variable?  I am not sure what the policy on the last point is.

Stefan, any suggestions?

Message #20 received at 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>, tpeplt <at> gmail.com,
 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation"
 description.
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 09:20:41 -0400

>>>>> M-x customize-option RET
>>>>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
[...]
> Stefan, any suggestions?

All I can offer is to muddy the water a bit more: the above
customization *can* work, if you save your Custom settings in your
`early-init.el` (or in another file that's loaded from that file).

But, yeah, it's more misleading than useful to to have it as
a Custom variable.


        Stefan

Message #25 received at 70402-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: philipk <at> posteo.net, tpeplt <at> gmail.com, 70402-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation"
 description.
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 11:54:56 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk <at> posteo.net>,  tpeplt <at> gmail.com,
>   70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 09:20:41 -0400
> 
> >>>>> M-x customize-option RET
> >>>>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
> [...]
> > Stefan, any suggestions?
> 
> All I can offer is to muddy the water a bit more: the above
> customization *can* work, if you save your Custom settings in your
> `early-init.el` (or in another file that's loaded from that file).

Thanks, I've updated the documentation on master with this info.

> But, yeah, it's more misleading than useful to to have it as
> a Custom variable.

I guess at this late stage we cannot make this a defvar, so I left it
to be a defcustom.

And with that, I'm closing this bug.

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