From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 27 20:17:09 2010 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2010 00:17:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op96b-0002km-3y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:17:09 -0400 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166] helo=mx10.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op96Y-0002kN-L5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:17:08 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:35938) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Op97w-00057W-Iu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:18:32 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=57857 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Op97q-0007ih-8w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:18:31 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op97h-0005XB-Nc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:18:24 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:29116) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op97h-0005Wv-Im for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:18:17 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7S0IFI2000344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:18:16 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7RLM7rO028482 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:18:14 GMT Received: from abhmt014.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 540291961282954583; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:16:23 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.220.83) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:16:23 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:16:26 -0700 Message-ID: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: ActGRkEQa93fx+c6R7mkNjJ6R4EFFA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) emacs -Q M-x fringe-mode Enter `half'. The fringe values (both left and right) should each be 5, according to the code and comments. Instead, it is still 8, as shown by (frame-parameters). There is no difference in behavior between `half' and `default'. Dunno whether this is Windows-specific. In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2010-08-16 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 28 04:42:48 2010 Received: (at 6933) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2010 08:42:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpGzv-0006bf-Q0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:42:47 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpGzs-0006ba-LY for 6933@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:42:46 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7U00L00SK3EG00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 6933@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:43:36 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.93.239]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7U00LRPTKL9G50@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:43:34 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:45:36 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken In-reply-to: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933 Cc: 6933@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:16:26 -0700 > > emacs -Q > > M-x fringe-mode > Enter `half'. > > The fringe values (both left and right) should each be 5, according to > the code and comments. Instead, it is still 8, as shown by > (frame-parameters). There is no difference in behavior between `half' > and `default'. Dunno whether this is Windows-specific. This happens because fringe.el has this customization form for "half" in the defcustom for fringe-mode: (const :tag "Half width" (5 . 5)) And the doc string for fringe-mode says this, among the rest: This command may round up the left and right width specifications to ensure that their sum is a multiple of the character width of a frame. So 5 is rounded up to 8, and the rest is history. I don't know why the values are 5 instead of 4. The default fringe width is 8 on all GUI displays, so half of that should have been 4, not 5. Maybe I'm missing some subtlety here. Can someone please check on X whether (fringe-mode '(4 . 4)) does TRT? If it does, I think we should use 4 instead of 5 in the above defcustom. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 28 11:14:07 2010 Received: (at 6933) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2010 15:14:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpN6c-0001Op-KI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:14:06 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpN6b-0001OT-3O for 6933@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:14:05 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7SFFYpS022698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:15:35 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7SCF55b011506; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:15:34 GMT Received: from abhmt019.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 541113101283008527; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:15:27 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.221.84) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:15:27 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:15:29 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: ActGjTQuuGlpCwS7T76Ua+3ldsJ8pgANXAqw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933 Cc: 6933@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > > emacs -Q > > > > M-x fringe-mode > > Enter `half'. > > > > The fringe values (both left and right) should each be 5, > > according to the code and comments. Instead, it is still 8, > > as shown by (frame-parameters). There is no difference in behavior > > between `half' and `default'. Dunno whether this is Windows-specific. > > This happens because fringe.el has this customization form for "half" > in the defcustom for fringe-mode: > > (const :tag "Half width" (5 . 5)) > > And the doc string for fringe-mode says this, among the rest: > > This command may round up the left and > right width specifications to ensure that their sum is a multiple > of the character width of a frame. > > So 5 is rounded up to 8, and the rest is history. > > I don't know why the values are 5 instead of 4. The default fringe > width is 8 on all GUI displays, so half of that should have been 4, > not 5. Maybe I'm missing some subtlety here. > > Can someone please check on X whether (fringe-mode '(4 . 4)) does TRT? > If it does, I think we should use 4 instead of 5 in the above > defcustom. Thanks. Default is 8; half is 5, which results in 8 (same as default); and minimal is 4. If we have 3 values (choices) and the default is 8, then the values should ideally give 3 different appearances (effects). Neither {8,8,4} and {8,4,4} is a good set. But since both minimal and half show both left and right fringes, and the sum must be a multiple of the frame char width (default 8), that doesn't leave a lot of choice. Presumably, for both minimal and half you want the left and right to be the same, and 8/2 = 4. So I guess there is no good solution. But perhaps this could be better explained in the doc. I'd suggest making half be 4, at least, since users expect it to be less than default (whole) in appearance. It is less disconcerting if users see no difference between half and minimal when using the default frame-char size: "minimal" does not imply less than half, but "half" implies less than whole (default). Also, "default" might not be the best term here. I don't have a great suggestion, however. Maybe "full", "whole", or "maximal", but each of those has its drawbacks too. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 04 14:33:00 2010 Received: (at 6933) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Sep 2010 18:33:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OrxXw-0002QY-Ep for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:33:00 -0400 Received: from pantheon-po15.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.71]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OrxXv-0002QQ-5c for 6933@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:32:59 -0400 Received: from furry (173-14-147-246-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.14.147.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po15.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o84IYleK021162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:34:48 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7FB6C018; Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:34:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:34:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:45:36 +0300") Message-ID: <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933 Cc: 6933@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) Eli Zaretskii writes: > This happens because fringe.el has this customization form for "half" > in the defcustom for fringe-mode: > > (const :tag "Half width" (5 . 5)) > > And the doc string for fringe-mode says this, among the rest: > > This command may round up the left and > right width specifications to ensure that their sum is a multiple > of the character width of a frame. > > So 5 is rounded up to 8, and the rest is history. > > I don't know why the values are 5 instead of 4. The default fringe > width is 8 on all GUI displays, so half of that should have been 4, > not 5. Maybe I'm missing some subtlety here. > > Can someone please check on X whether (fringe-mode '(4 . 4)) does TRT? > If it does, I think we should use 4 instead of 5 in the above > defcustom. (4 . 4) seems to work fine for me on X. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 17:12:51 2010 Received: (at 6933-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2010 21:12:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwiEk-0006uu-W3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:12:51 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwiEi-0006uh-K7 for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:12:49 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L8W00D00TID0G00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:14:31 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.210.149]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L8W00CLWTO6DXD0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:14:31 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 23:14:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken In-reply-to: <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Chong Yidong Message-id: <83vd64ysw3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933-done Cc: 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: Chong Yidong > Cc: Drew Adams , 6933@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:34:47 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > This happens because fringe.el has this customization form for "half" > > in the defcustom for fringe-mode: > > > > (const :tag "Half width" (5 . 5)) > > > > And the doc string for fringe-mode says this, among the rest: > > > > This command may round up the left and > > right width specifications to ensure that their sum is a multiple > > of the character width of a frame. > > > > So 5 is rounded up to 8, and the rest is history. > > > > I don't know why the values are 5 instead of 4. The default fringe > > width is 8 on all GUI displays, so half of that should have been 4, > > not 5. Maybe I'm missing some subtlety here. > > > > Can someone please check on X whether (fringe-mode '(4 . 4)) does TRT? > > If it does, I think we should use 4 instead of 5 in the above > > defcustom. > > (4 . 4) seems to work fine for me on X. I changed fringe.el to use (4 . 4). So this bug should be fixed now (revno 101464). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 18:23:02 2010 Received: (at 6933-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2010 22:23:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwjKf-0007RJ-Vg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:23:02 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwjKd-0007RE-6V for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:22:59 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o8HMPKMK007837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:25:21 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o8HKcGtm018063; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:25:20 GMT Received: from abhmt016.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 608615261284762311; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:25:11 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.112) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:25:11 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , "'Chong Yidong'" References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83vd64ysw3.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: <6CD1E6A595C84B3FA8C2AFE4EAC376BE@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83vd64ysw3.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: ActWrWq42+ThEFuXR0yo+QZDZJpr7wAALN/w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933-done Cc: 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > I changed fringe.el to use (4 . 4). So this bug should be fixed now > (revno 101464). What about the confusing name `default' and the doc? The doc string for the function `fringe-mode' mentions the rounding, but the doc string for the option (customization) does not mention it. Users will not understand what happens - i.e. what has been discussed in this thread. `default' probably should be renamed. It is not just a default: `half' presumably takes its meaning from the meaning of `default'. I suggested "full", "whole", or "maximal", but perhaps something even better can be found. The clearest doc about the fringe is the Elisp manual, and that refers to this as the "standard" width. That is better than `default'. To tell the truth, I'm still not clear on the meaning of default here. On the one hand, the Elisp manual (but not any of the other fringe doc) says that it means _whatever width is needed to show the fringe bitmaps_: "standard fringe width, which is the width needed to display the fringe bitmaps" That suggests that it is a function of the fringe bitmaps, not a constant width. And the fact that we use nil for this, instead of just an actual default number (e.g. 8) would also seem to indicate that it is not a hard-coded number (else why not use 8?). Being the size needed to show the fringe bitmaps suggests that it can vary depending on the available bitmaps (their size). Is that really possible, or is it always in fact 8 - in its effect? And if the effect of a `default' (nil) value can vary that way, then presumably `half' would always be half of its effective value (modulo any needed rounding). Is that really the case, or is `half' always 4 (now)? IOW, if nil makes the fringe width change if the "fringe bitmaps" change size, then does `half' follow suit? (I don't think so.) But if that is not correct, if in fact both `default' and `half', in their effect, always produce the same widths (8 and 4), then I do not see why we offer those symbolic values at all. In that case, why not just have a single numeric value that users can customize and whose default value is 8? (And also of course allow for left/right only, as is done now.) You can tell that this is still not clear to me, even after looking at the code and all of the doc. That in itself should indicate that at the least the doc is not so wonderful. The Elisp manual is clearest here and seems to provide the info needed for a user in Customize. If the manual is correct, and if no design change is in order (e.g. we don't get rid of some of the value-menu possibilities), then the other doc, in particular the Customize doc, should say what the Elisp manual says. But as I say, if `default' and `half' are, in their effect, just hard-coded numeric widths, then let's get rid of those value-menu and `interactive' spec choices. There is no need for a value of nil unless it actually does let the fringe be different in different contexts (e.g. bitmap size). And even if `default' does in fact allow for variable fringe size, it seems that `half' does not in any case. In that case `half' is not always half of the standard width (`default'), even when there is no rounding. My impression, looking at the code, is that `half' simply means a width of 4 (modulo rounding) - always, even if nil (`default') might change to handle different size bitmaps (which also does not seem to be true). Can we settle this? First the question about whether `default' (nil) actually lets the fringe width change depending on the bitmap size - as the Elisp manual suggests: "the width needed to display the fringe bitmaps". If the answer to that is no, so that `default' always acts the same as a width of 8, then let's get rid of `default'. And even if the answer is yes, what about `half' - doesn't that always act the same as a value of 4? If yes, then let's get rid of `half'. If both `default' (nil) and `half' (4 . 4) always act the same as 8 and 4, then let's just let users specify such a numeric value in Customize. In that case there is no purpose in offering them also "default" and "half". But what about the `interactive' spec for `fringe-mode' and `set-fringe-style'? There we might still allow completion against symbolic choices, as now, and translate to the underlying values. But even then I wonder whether we shouldn't just allow as input either (a) an integer (width), which would take care of `default', `half', and `minimal', or, say, (b) a number preceded by `l' or `r', which takes care of `left-only' and `right-only' (and additionally lets the user specify the left/right width, something they cannot do now except via Customize). I'm hoping that someone who understands this well reads this and DTRT: either redesign this, if I'm right in suspecting that it is clunky, or at least clarify the doc, if I'm wrong and the current design is ideal. Thx. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:42:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 22:25:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 18 05:46:43 2010 Received: (at 6933-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2010 09:46:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Owu0J-0006dF-Dp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 05:46:43 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Owu0I-0006dA-Ap for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 05:46:43 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L8X00B00SIB4F00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:49:00 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.210.149]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L8X00ARPSLMTO60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:48:59 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:49:04 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken In-reply-to: <6CD1E6A595C84B3FA8C2AFE4EAC376BE@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83iq23z8j3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83vd64ysw3.fsf@gnu.org> <6CD1E6A595C84B3FA8C2AFE4EAC376BE@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933-done Cc: 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 15:25:59 -0700 > > > I changed fringe.el to use (4 . 4). So this bug should be fixed now > > (revno 101464). > > What about the confusing name `default' and the doc? The original bug report was only about the effect of `half'. Documentation is an unrelated issue. > The doc string for the function `fringe-mode' mentions the rounding, but the doc > string for the option (customization) does not mention it. I added to the doc string of the defcustom a note about rounding. > `default' probably should be renamed. It is not just a default: `half' > presumably takes its meaning from the meaning of `default'. I suggested "full", > "whole", or "maximal", but perhaps something even better can be found. The > clearest doc about the fringe is the Elisp manual, and that refers to this as > the "standard" width. That is better than `default'. I don't see a good reason for renaming the symbolic values. Doing so will surely cause back-compatibility issues, so IMO we need a really good reason for such a change. > "standard fringe width, which is the width needed to display the fringe bitmaps" > > That suggests that it is a function of the fringe bitmaps, not a constant width. They are constant for the time being, but may change in the future, e.g. if we lift the current restriction of the display engine that limits window width to an integral multiple of the canonical character size. > But as I say, if `default' and `half' are, in their effect, just hard-coded > numeric widths, then let's get rid of those value-menu and `interactive' spec > choices. There is no need for a value of nil unless it actually does let the > fringe be different in different contexts (e.g. bitmap size). I don't think it's right to fix the choices on specific numbers. Symbolic values allow us to change the underlying implementation in the future without hurting compatibility. The fact that some of the documentation describes the current implementation is not necessarily a good reason to remove future extensibility. > Can we settle this? Feel free to submit a separate bug report. I'm not going to do anything about this at this time, for the reasons stated above. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 18 10:43:33 2010 Received: (at 6933-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2010 14:43:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwydY-0000tu-RT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:43:33 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OwydW-0000tn-2V for 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:43:30 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o8IEjq1J028953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:45:54 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o8ICRxRr000725; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:45:51 GMT Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 609752481284821088; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:44:48 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.112) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:44:46 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <97A7C2F12C894D59986BE445D664437A@us.oracle.com> <83r5hjktvz.fsf@gnu.org> <87hbi59x2w.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83vd64ysw3.fsf@gnu.org> <6CD1E6A595C84B3FA8C2AFE4EAC376BE@us.oracle.com> <83iq23z8j3.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#6933: 24.0.50; fringe-mode value of `half' is broken Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 07:45:32 -0700 Message-ID: <21645801F5D4445C96BC0CFE11486099@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: ActXFr16mHfH/71yQEmqfd8SGafpdQAJ9WOw In-Reply-To: <83iq23z8j3.fsf@gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6933-done Cc: 6933-done@debbugs.gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > > What about the confusing name `default' and the doc? > > The original bug report was only about the effect of `half'. > Documentation is an unrelated issue. See my second mail for this report which clarifies things. I specifically mention problems with the doc and with `default'. > I don't see a good reason for renaming the symbolic values. They don't do what they say. `half' is not necessarily half of `default', even when one disregards rounding. `default' itself is a misleading name. The ELisp manual calls it "standard", but even that is not great. Apparently it is the full width needed to display all fringe bitmaps. If we kept a symbolic value for this it should be something like `full'. > Doing so will surely cause back-compatibility issues, It is use only in interactive interfaces. > so IMO we need a really good reason for such a change. > > > "standard fringe width, which is the width needed to > > display the fringe bitmaps" > > > > That suggests that it is a function of the fringe bitmaps, > > not a constant width. > > They are constant for the time being, but may change in the future, > e.g. if we lift the current restriction of the display engine that > limits window width to an integral multiple of the canonical character > size. We don't name things based on such maybe-one-day-everything-will-be-different imaginings. These names have long been giving the wrong impression (years). > > But as I say, if `default' and `half' are, in their effect, > > just hard-coded numeric widths, then let's get rid of those > > value-menu and `interactive' spec choices. There is no need for a > > value of nil unless it actually does let the > > fringe be different in different contexts (e.g. bitmap size). > > I don't think it's right to fix the choices on specific numbers. > Symbolic values allow us to change the underlying implementation in > the future without hurting compatibility. See above. The choices that users have should reflect the actual behavior, not some possible future behavior. The only real behaviors possible today and forever into the past are fixed numeric values for left, right, or both. The UI should reflect that faithfully. It should not be a UI for some imagined alternative or future world. > The fact that some of the documentation describes the current > implementation is not necessarily a good reason to remove future > extensibility. The doc and UI should reflect the product's behavior, not some alternative behavior some developer might be dreaming of. That's a no-brainer. > > Can we settle this? > > Feel free to submit a separate bug report. I'm not going to do > anything about this at this time, for the reasons stated above. From unknown Sun Jun 22 22:42:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator