From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:10:06 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#6930 <6930@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#6930 <6930@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fringe width"? Reply-To: bug#6930 <6930@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 20:10:06 +0000 retitle 6930 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fri= nge width"? reassign 6930 emacs submitter 6930 "Drew Adams" severity 6930 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 27 18:23:06 2010 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Aug 2010 22:23:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7KE-0001v0-7l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:23:06 -0400 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7KC-0001uc-95 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:23:04 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:49105) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7Lc-0004bZ-Po for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:24:32 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50318 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Op7LX-0006AI-L3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:24:32 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7LR-0003Ae-Ij for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:24:27 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:27576) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7LR-0003Aa-9Q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:24:21 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7RMOJZ5008626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:24:20 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7RLMYO0025674 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:24:19 GMT Received: from abhmt017.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 556023381282947770; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:50 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.220.83) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:49 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fringe width"? Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:49 -0700 Message-ID: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: ActGNmHy8pOzEzLEQ/K4p3lBk9Az+A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) The text says this: The default width of the left and right fringes of windows in this frame (*note Fringes::). If either of these is zero, that effectively removes the corresponding fringe. A value of `nil' stands for the standard fringe width, which is the width needed to display the fringe bitmaps. If Lisp code wants to know how wide the left fringe is for a certain frame, it can look at the value of parameter `left-fringe' (and at variable `fringe-mode'). But if parameter `left-fringe' is nil, then the fringe width is what? It says the width is "the standard fringe width". Well, what's that? "The width needed to display the fringe bitmaps." Huh? And how does it find out how wide that is for the target frame? In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2010-08-16 on 3249CTO Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/imagesupport/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 28 04:14:46 2010 Received: (at 6930-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2010 08:14:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpGYn-0006Pb-Jd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:14:45 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpGYm-0006PV-2S for 6930-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 04:14:44 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7U00700RK96C00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 6930-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:16:13 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.93.239]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7U0072RSAZ4O50@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:16:12 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:18:14 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#6930: 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fringe width"? In-reply-to: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83sk1zkv5l.fsf@gnu.org> References: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6930-done Cc: 6930-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:49 -0700 > Cc: > > The text says this: > > The default width of the left and right fringes of windows in this > frame (*note Fringes::). If either of these is zero, that > effectively removes the corresponding fringe. A value of `nil' > stands for the standard fringe width, which is the width needed to > display the fringe bitmaps. > > If Lisp code wants to know how wide the left fringe is for a certain > frame, it can look at the value of parameter `left-fringe' (and at > variable `fringe-mode'). But if parameter `left-fringe' is nil, then > the fringe width is what? This works for me: (frame-parameter FRAME 'left-fringe) => 8 FRAME can be nil, meaning the currently selected frame. Calling frame-parameter is the standard way of accessing values of frame parameters. So I'm closing this bug. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 28 11:06:01 2010 Received: (at 6930-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2010 15:06:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpMyn-0001LS-9e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:06:01 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OpMym-0001LM-8M for 6930-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:06:00 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7SF7SSk015114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:07:30 GMT Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7S90QiO017748; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:07:27 GMT Received: from abhmt012.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 541104771283007961; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:06:01 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.221.84) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:06:01 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" References: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> <83sk1zkv5l.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#6930: 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fringe width"? Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:06:03 -0700 Message-ID: <043A01CA4F5C4994A095AF30B02FFA31@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83sk1zkv5l.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: ActGiUkJaSNn6xXrSEed53LX/eV0bwAN6BoA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6930-done Cc: 6930-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > > The text says this: > > > > The default width of the left and right fringes of > > windows in this > > frame (*note Fringes::). If either of these is zero, that > > effectively removes the corresponding fringe. A value of `nil' > > stands for the standard fringe width, which is the > > width needed to display the fringe bitmaps. > > > > If Lisp code wants to know how wide the left fringe is for a certain > > frame, it can look at the value of parameter `left-fringe' (and at > > variable `fringe-mode'). But if parameter `left-fringe' is > > nil, then the fringe width is what? > > This works for me: > > (frame-parameter FRAME 'left-fringe) => 8 > > FRAME can be nil, meaning the currently selected frame. > > Calling frame-parameter is the standard way of accessing values of > frame parameters. > > So I'm closing this bug. Yes, either `frame-parameter' or `frame-parameters' will show the actual fringe width. I know that. I wasn't clear enough in my report. 1. The product is not clear/consistent wrt setting frame parameters such as the fringe params. We speak here of setting the `left-fringe' parameter to nil, and calling `set-frame-parameter' or `modify-frame-parameters' passing nil for that parameter should, according to the description of those functions, set the value to...(drum roll) nil. But it does not. In fact, fringe params are exceptional. "Setting" them to nil actually sets them to the default width, which is 8. Should this exceptional behavior be corrected? Dunno. At the very least, the doc should tell users about such exceptions. We cannot honestly tell users that they are setting the param value to nil and say it's not a bug if they see that the result is that the value was set to 8. Such exceptional behavior needs to be mentioned when documenting these fringe params - but also when documenting any function that changes frame params, and when documenting Customize. We need to say that for some exceptional params, even though you think you are setting the value to one thing the actual setting might become something else. 2. The doc is not clear here, in any case. It should not speak about "the standard fringe width", with no explanation of what that might be. (There is no standard fringe width.) It should say clearly that there is a `default' width of 8 (chosen via Customize or `fringe-mode' using the name `default'), and that that value is what is actually used when you _try_ to set the value to nil. (It should not speak of actually setting the value to nil, since that is impossible.) Thx. From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:10:06 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:29:01 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 10 16:44:22 2011 Received: (at 6930) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Apr 2011 20:44:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q91Uc-0005ps-Bz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:22 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.146]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q91Ua-0005pe-TU for 6930@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:21 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp128036159042.central.yale.edu [128.36.159.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-05.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p3AKiEvK019010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:15 -0400 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7616A160461; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#6930: 24.0.50; (elisp) Layout Parameters: What is ""the standard fringe width"? References: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:14 -0400 In-Reply-To: <69C7B1DB961B42BC919820FB3B331292@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:49 -0700") Message-ID: <87ipulltup.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.146 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6930 Cc: 6930@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > We speak here of setting the `left-fringe' parameter to nil, and > calling `set-frame-parameter' or `modify-frame-parameters' passing nil > for that parameter should, according to the description of those > functions, set the value to...(drum roll) nil. But it does not. In > fact, fringe params are exceptional. "Setting" them to nil actually > sets them to the default width, which is 8. > Such exceptional behavior needs to be mentioned when documenting these > fringe params I have updated the documentation appropriately. Thanks for the bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 10 16:44:34 2011 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Apr 2011 20:44:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q91Un-0005qG-Qe for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:33 -0400 Received: from vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.147]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q91Um-0005q2-Aw for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:32 -0400 Received: from furball (dhcp128036159042.central.yale.edu [128.36.159.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by vm-emlprdomr-06.its.yale.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p3AKiQX9031970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:27 -0400 Received: by furball (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 50DB7160461; Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 6930 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:44:26 -0400 Message-ID: <87pqotu991.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.71 on 130.132.50.147 X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) close 6930 thanks From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:10:06 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator