From unknown Sat Jun 14 03:52:07 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#68808 <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#68808 <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Reply-To: bug#68808 <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 10:52:07 +0000 retitle 68808 subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient reassign 68808 automake submitter 68808 Karl Berry severity 68808 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 18:01:13 2024 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2024 23:01:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33683 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUacr-0000IK-9c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 18:01:13 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:58382) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUacf-0000Gr-8J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 18:01:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rUacM-0005VB-76 for bug-automake@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 18:00:42 -0500 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75] helo=freefriends.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rUacK-0008Ac-8s for bug-automake@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 18:00:41 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 40TN0bpr021880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:00:37 -0700 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 40TN0aLt021879; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:00:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 16:00:36 -0700 Message-Id: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: bug-automake@gnu.org, JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.99.81.75; envelope-from=karl@freefriends.org; helo=freefriends.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Erik - following up on your final comment in #68119: P.P.S. It still needs export am_cv_sleep_fractional_seconds=false to correctly run the tests on macOS. Without that, 75-90 tests fail. Maybe we can try to figure out why the code that tries to automatically discern whether subsecond mtimes are supported is insufficient? It seems there is something different about the mac filesystem (or something). So I suspect there will be problems on other systems, too. If there are any test(s) which more or less consistently fail without the override the sleep_fractional_seconds, maybe we can discern why those tests are failing. I am dearly hoping not to have inspect every single test and scatter $sleep commands everywhere. Meanwhile, the code that tries to figure out if subsecond mtimes are supported is in m4/sanity.m4, function _AM_FILESYSTEM_TIMESTAMP_RESOLUTION. It essentially writes to three files and sleeps for the trial resolution between them, starting at a hundredth of a second. Then, if ls -t sorts in the right order, it assumes that resolution is ok. For one thing, just to get a grip on reality, maybe you could try running those commands by hand and see what the result is. I'm guessing the Mac (and its sleep command?) do support subsecond mtimes in reality. am_try_res=.001 echo alpha > conftest.ts1 sleep $am_try_res echo beta > conftest.ts2 sleep $am_try_res echo gamma > conftest.ts3 ls -t conftest.ts? The result should be conftest.ts3 first, then ts2, then ts1. But, looking at that code, I belatedly see that shell arrays are being used. At least I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if the mac /bin/sh doesn't support arrays. But that should result in assuming subsecond mtimes are not supported when they are, instead of the reverse. Anyway, I don't think we can assume arrays, so I'll have to think about that. But the important thing is why so many tests fail on your system when subsecond mtimes are enabled (and succeed when not). --thanks, karl. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 29 19:24:50 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 00:24:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33810 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUbvm-0005KO-Dh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:50 -0500 Received: from wfhigh1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.152]:59069) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUbvj-0005Jl-Dw for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:48 -0500 Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfhigh.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6F01800092; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap45 ([10.202.2.95]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=owlfolio.org; h= cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1706574271; x=1706660671; bh=qGNi/AANQL RVjBDIJ3GXpVLw33IAHOEK1HBQabDTjHY=; b=pb3pzEST8GDI6kLYFERqDmaCk2 l0NHOUlI0g2crR7EougR5fkcweOGxqEBcV76iy3nqsl6DuwB96H9zxg7NonG7mdX blG73AHth1TIqrJ6FieOnRa8cQLs7uzs3Iys2OBfGkvOn+zmE1Hlu/jFKsUjoW6o /5Y8fXlAmDIEg68loCtZdBu5FqzPAKVkimyLLlR7Oe2WlTCZmY7fElQOqvECvWuh i6BNvzq/3Pr6waseSbe5ollWUju0KsK2PFAdTwW91ZpCN8d/KFYTJqYY+nuWL8NS bIsP262I1ZSlVwwLDpKgMh7eNRQdir3U45n6bQEgl9R5os2QDdjYKvWJqqGg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1706574271; x=1706660671; bh=qGNi/AANQLRVjBDIJ3GXpVLw33IA HOEK1HBQabDTjHY=; b=bRhNPC7FTVe/PSGa6Hkr+mdCnWfN0WUlTSVM+pyf1N5T BcknV0K/JRtsxEY+4G5azyz5o+1IFYQ3HOZTPtRujqwQD1gE8F9FpeOxDmjf5nKB EXe8DWkftvDdLvaG0u6m+Uasd3e9dkO55y+50mD/GHO6w+SPhYCl2jKpykwTclUH xSdanR2obBx91IBA5V61jrN0hzSQfrQz026ddeFVqdN8ruK2Vtogwg0J7DUEzlZ9 +hSHOJVEdMS8xIhDtys+KezR0Uylkiy/lkS4HlFReqRcYcOzjmxpT9SsDAejvqfP /hvZmrWFlKuAiKFTz35/z0MxhyQMgEck5gNfaGGZBg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedthedgvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdgkrggt khcuhggvihhnsggvrhhgfdcuoeiirggtkhesohiflhhfohhlihhordhorhhgqeenucggtf frrghtthgvrhhnpefhuefhveeuffetfffgjeetgfekkeehfedtfeelgfehffffveehkeel fefgheffudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhroh hmpeiirggtkhesohiflhhfohhlihhordhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i876146a2:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 131BB272007C; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:31 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2c039f8e-6861-4b67-a913-663bbb7c1973@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> References: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 19:24:11 -0500 From: "Zack Weinberg" To: "Karl Berry" , 68808@debbugs.gnu.org, JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, at 6:00 PM, Karl Berry wrote: > But, looking at that code, I belatedly see that shell arrays are being > used. At least I think so. It is absolutely not *supposed* to be using shell arrays. If it is, that was a mistake on my part. zw From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 07:08:34 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 12:08:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34492 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUmun-0007MZ-RA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 07:08:34 -0500 Received: from mx0a-00164701.pphosted.com ([67.231.149.15]:59298 helo=mx0b-00164701.pphosted.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUmul-0007MP-IL for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 07:08:33 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (m0085736.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00164701.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 40U1QuwP003150; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 04:08:21 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=usc.edu; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: usc.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR07MB8136.namprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 08fa3897-f152-4692-404e-08dc218c242b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jan 2024 12:08:16.5559 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9ddaaca1-389f-4cb1-a113-081be6cc25fc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JGTzwwrnSNmWNLfibeAaQMQAMhEctCN1ZQWmttWKgSewTiAarKiNvyqg/ifbtZY49S2Vkp/aSVLeqObQjhzMvQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA1PR07MB9991 X-Proofpoint-GUID: pgayMhDOae-tN-zX3CMywLslPYLAmOA1 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: pgayMhDOae-tN-zX3CMywLslPYLAmOA1 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1011,Hydra:6.0.619,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2024-01-30_05,2024-01-30_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2311290000 definitions=main-2401300088 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: "68808@debbugs.gnu.org" <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) I'm guessing the Mac (and its sleep command?) do support subsecond mtimes = in reality. echo a > 1 && echo b > 2 && echo c > 3 && ls -t [123] consistently gives me the correct order (3 2 1). The macOS version of stat has a mtime_nsec field that is fully populated an= d the file modification times differ by about a half of a millisecond. But, looking at that code, I belatedly see that shell arrays are being used. At least I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if the mac /bin/sh doesn't support arrays. But that should result in assuming subsecond mtimes are not supported when they are, instead of the reverse. Anyway, I don't think we can assume arrays, so I'll have to think about that. On macOS, /bin/sh is actually /bin/bash executing in POSIX mode. I _think_= it has arrays but I could check if you have some code you want me to run. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <020DCEE188C7AC4CA2042235268EC5B9@namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: usc.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR07MB8136.namprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 175a9212-2055-4bd3-c256-08dc219176bd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jan 2024 12:46:22.5767 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9ddaaca1-389f-4cb1-a113-081be6cc25fc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JgALlpkMYrMQodpYMZ4qNuUdDxoqxuRWSk7Nt/kNEhw8rzZkdKliyjD0qt2OoiAduAmhWot+b3jZMHz95Kr3dQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW4PR07MB9663 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: iTBBLixtbds3QChGL9GL6JmC4-IJiAyv X-Proofpoint-GUID: iTBBLixtbds3QChGL9GL6JmC4-IJiAyv X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1011,Hydra:6.0.619,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2024-01-30_05,2024-01-30_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2311290000 definitions=main-2401300093 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: "68808@debbugs.gnu.org" <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) I found the problem! The default GNU make on macOS (even Sonoma) is 3.81 f= rom 2006! The configure script for GNU make versions <4.0 did not have the= right test for subsecond resolution in the macOS stat() function, so 3.81 = was built with resolution only to the second, not subsecond, thus needing a= t least one second sleep. (Why, then, does Apple continue to include 3.81 = in the software 18 years later? Beyond me.) Installing the most recent release of GNU make (4.4.1) fixes the problem. = Tests all run successfully. Erik ---------------------------------------- Details ... With make 3.81, if I create a simple Makefile with foo: bar touch foo then touch foo touch bar make should make (touch) foo because bar is newer. However, if these are done i= mmediately after each other touch foo; touch bar; make then, most of the time, make just responds with "make: `foo' is up to date.= " The following n=3D0; while make | grep -q 'up to date'; do touch foo; touch bar; printf = .; n=3D$(($n+1)); done; echo $n varies from a handful of trials to several thousand trials before foo's mti= me's integer is one less than bar's mtime's integer. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 09:06:55 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 14:06:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34668 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUolK-00053M-SP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:55 -0500 Received: from wfout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.144]:37037) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUolI-000537-Od for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:53 -0500 Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailfout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8841C00086; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap45 ([10.202.2.95]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=owlfolio.org; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1706623594; x=1706709994; bh=Ax8qQe4ZG4 7gVO7ec/nVbQyTnc8eWIL5RGyVuKCAFnE=; b=Zgs0oUSoprqwVKabHty07KXE5t 7V2JBnXFyUfWBb5BCtnwd2RDB9YOBMtHYnD6eEeg+ucyc1yAyli9NxPDzJINXQkG Kiy4vxx8+pK2gG8JAv6jhiyI8E+7wZlvGoPSO8nl/5gqEsaFNo6NKv/DfBDvy4Xe RMYTlpEPWyuXcPwLUhbVTb6JuB1NE9Rn6/olwiFYqDTPLCRoVBFoeXSmIUwWL/+e X9E5aCY+gzX4PGcf0J22+WcpZI4Fye87jsyldPM1ttRL5nt0QE7zdgm09vsIACtu gE+n5mPBP8zm+DSIBSA6ugouKyDtxH/OEzKALbRZY6NgSSZeoAhKU92KDSNA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1706623594; x=1706709994; bh=Ax8qQe4ZG47gVO7ec/nVbQyTnc8e WIL5RGyVuKCAFnE=; b=TcDw9dtHfw4JwdGHpRTeMRM+hTlrithEdO6vdED6jAQj /ZppkyW2SdjaHvq7ikqX9hSEEEo8RS4lgZNdGg+ahCLaDL94xm1n4nJqyiauGnTs d1+Sh2eL/qgl+rtHsqWvy2DHREXS1J5SlDu7IrMpxF1GOfRAx2hZT0Ql8XynNNmw 2li70AGJGYcDb/VHUSePnWOgw6eHEMd9Gc/gnhO3UiqP65i9iDy/Hf7wv9PmuZJr NefCha3T/vgZpXqUMhC4DCQ7+sW5DfqRI8qmUw2Zl9OcEdkZVDbg8lk/u4DghzeD F+EwmKiwvdMvcJWUtSLZjFNudixAweJt0/TENRPdbw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedtiedgiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvfevufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfkggr tghkucghvghinhgsvghrghdfuceoiigrtghksehofihlfhholhhiohdrohhrgheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfelfeehudfhleegheegjeevheeuieehvdfgueeuteetleeiieet heefhfeludeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepiigrtghksehofihlfhholhhiohdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i876146a2:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id CD521272007D; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:33 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:06:12 -0500 From: "Zack Weinberg" To: "Erik A Johnson" , "Karl Berry" Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: "68808@debbugs.gnu.org" <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 7:46 AM, Erik A Johnson wrote: > I found the problem! The default GNU make on macOS (even Sonoma) is > 3.81 from 2006! The configure script for GNU make versions <4.0 did > not have the right test for subsecond resolution in the macOS stat() > function, so 3.81 was built with resolution only to the second, not > subsecond, thus needing at least one second sleep. Okay, so that means the filesystem timestamp resolution test needs to probe the behavior of `make` as well as all the other things it tests. I will work on a patch for that as soon as I have a usable workstation again, which will probably not be until next week at the earliest; if anyone wants to beat me to it, feel free. > (Why, then, does Apple continue to include 3.81 in the software 18 > years later? Beyond me.) 3.81 was the last version distributed under GPLv2; Apple won't touch anything that's distributed under GPLv3. Their copy of GNU M4 is also vintage 2006, for the same reason. I don't claim to understand why their legal department thinks GPLv2 is fine but v3 has to be avoided, but (like many other proprietary Unix vendors) they probably keep shipping the old GNU tools instead of, like, switching to current BSD tools, for the sake of compatibility with old scripts. zw From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 09:57:03 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 14:57:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36121 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUpXq-0006qh-Ms for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:57:02 -0500 Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]:61590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUpXo-0006qI-IZ for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 09:57:01 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1d8da50bffaso11504995ad.2 for <68808@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 06:56:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1706626605; x=1707231405; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=L/uKMdSWPmDJbf/KDIs/mv8Odpf7nIieir4IxhlzMTM=; b=YvVkDIoAwj6mxPWNq1IfcOIp7zlCbsFce45/XDhuD0SbHENuANrWY3MYekCvCXfYQd WrPKO6Cgfoyj2JHouf3CheUL9FCM92u1qk/qBNdyxnqDCVQ6XP/WgkqEVp9flbmH7z+p jPAylupmysaL+cp6KONVFN0aiLYK7OYXjhLaqZSM5xzdIx+P9WIAS2J+Yge5V/z1trH1 CvH9naMJr2TkchXeCw1Lh6rUe+TnZLGPtJN9unDoj8wkfNbHvKd6EkTHYZef1uDl87ht YW+KExSjFtKNL4gk7hopRY+nwMcQug1mHLGqbCB4WqXhKtpqwiV32EG8UfNl+EyO0NW1 G9Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1706626605; x=1707231405; h=in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to:content-language:subject :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=L/uKMdSWPmDJbf/KDIs/mv8Odpf7nIieir4IxhlzMTM=; b=ldX4979/yuNcHGufuQ3CWnMxyk1pQgcGp+KEMt8wRbaBgwyfR3jWvDQDrr1CY3uQZN U97UNi+RUxl01dojlTz45vP1HNr1hHnm+qLhMLcVnprFoGhjxegln11+ue8LXMHP5mYm tle8Yj2Ft44MdrbM2Bi/98GtShw+CSp6DDzazpf5zr22H78Yy6CVyOxgwzErYhf+VNd6 eTVVXLXDfA9xKq+KMbCDgqmkokdz5LRCxNDWV8VDkvlHAIeQi0IV4IzyfnXF8sPtCNt8 ciqVETurHLrA69E6WzP8wquadNpI2mCPahdCQX9B7DMu1ixsksZ/xWDZq/ZN0ieCi7Qa fmjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzI4+XO5se+CfxzQ6lnXlwhmeCXqU9m6nfslCGmYHOx3/sZkL6x LL1cp3+JOf0gEOQRTFErQaz2q3J9RNqeCxZoC4C9CcUYWczF+2sw X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHPnDVnXNRc1Fe5VzqjKyzcVpeMVX1lR/+kJcaCR6Xdvd21MKHU7OfupS0JGMBruO5CwOpIbg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2807:b0:1d9:a15:6142 with SMTP id kp7-20020a170903280700b001d90a156142mr1157305plb.24.1706626605300; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 06:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.1.50] ([118.208.3.105]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q6-20020a170902b10600b001d7137acad9sm7285404plr.57.2024.01.30.06.56.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Jan 2024 06:56:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EdhglLgE7XSZ8P00NQ1V0eMM" Message-ID: <351aabf4-7984-408e-8a63-061b8e1cb26e@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:56:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Content-Language: en-US To: Erik A Johnson , Karl Berry References: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> From: Peter Johansson In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: "68808@debbugs.gnu.org" <68808@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EdhglLgE7XSZ8P00NQ1V0eMM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 30/1/24 22:46, Erik A Johnson wrote: > (Why, then, does Apple continue to include 3.81 in the software 18 years later? Beyond me.) Probably because 3.81 was the last version released under GPLv2 or later and IIRC Apple avoids shipping things that are licensed with GPLv3. Cheers, Peter --------------EdhglLgE7XSZ8P00NQ1V0eMM Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 30/1/24 22:46, Erik A Johnson wrote:
(Why, then, does Apple continue to include 3.81 in the software 18 years later? Beyond me.)

Probably because 3.81 was the last version released under GPLv2 or later and IIRC Apple avoids shipping things that are licensed with GPLv3.

Cheers,

Peter


--------------EdhglLgE7XSZ8P00NQ1V0eMM-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 18:32:17 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 23:32:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37105 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUxaT-0000wN-Ji for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:32:17 -0500 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:37272 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUxaQ-0000wD-VB for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:32:15 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 40UNW4xw021107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 30 Jan 2024 16:32:04 -0700 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 40UNW4Xf021106; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 16:32:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 16:32:04 -0700 Message-Id: <202401302332.40UNW4Xf021106@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: zack@owlfolio.org Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: <2c039f8e-6861-4b67-a913-663bbb7c1973@app.fastmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) (Off-topic for the original bug, but for the sake of public discussion ...) Hi Zack, It is absolutely not *supposed* to be using shell arrays. I guess it's not an array. It's the square bracket syntax that confuses me. A couple of examples from the fn in sanity.m4: test "$[*]" != "X conftest.ts1 conftest.ts2" || .. test "$[]2" = conftest.ts3 && .. etc. I've never seen anything like that before. Searching online, supposedly $[...] means arithmetic expansion, but clearly that's not what is going on here. I don't know what it means. Seems like just "$2" (for example) is intended? I feel like I'm missing/forgetting something basic. Sorry I didn't read the code when you submitted it originally :(. Thanks, Karl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 30 18:34:55 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2024 23:34:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUxd1-00010M-1Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:55 -0500 Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]:38397) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rUxcx-000109-NJ for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:52 -0500 Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01815C0074; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap45 ([10.202.2.95]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=owlfolio.org; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1706657676; x=1706744076; bh=Vmcjv8qj91 t3TmFCGP19RtW70wzS4f/i+rAcCG2v43M=; b=rQSh6uJ7YXAxk0jR2XtU40vrGJ dZQytKcs4vmISiCh43h20Jnoc0Aydt4I8ZsZF8T8XLpXIBBNYm7DJ8QvRKuPWC9B 3TXQ12hxRgFW4Bfo/HBbXVo8TIIfSCYWFdc3WKeBLCBEeoOO476VlOSGKg++mrw+ Ow9AOSJccP8dXptme+n94+o8agDeC/6WPc2s2SJivu0jcp4KmK4quqnl8WGdZqWc pm/ESMZh4XsnwS0vpnLiKW6R76HmE4xYCOKexKZm6IdmJJqzmWLTT5KZZ+6DHhwd 8DL2cIJspyQyG9UCEP4qpVuRC4zrn/jfTdIdxcugoI5siHjQHxxF6YvMwxSw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1706657676; x=1706744076; bh=Vmcjv8qj91t3TmFCGP19RtW70wzS 4f/i+rAcCG2v43M=; b=dQSshpgk2r4Djj/1FSiPO3G2nGmnoVAxbe98wK2KNBnH 7DzY3BAZRiJGGahCrNQO/GfM7LqvdouRa48SDKFsBvsQQExGd6dNghq8hjz9ggJt Lqp8qtjBQnuFjdNd7RLI2LwK8A9Nn1Q9gIhQurslquyu1ZUntM/LSK3IZi3MjgqT yDqQ/rQ9SPRk5slzMHOlUobtCNy+ZU42NDzebzWvf6pomJQreQTB3cJ1V0k/PbNK 4rpDiMX9GaEF106oLOYku1cm0mW32hb6caklAn4e2GB5cuJTLjF1fmE2fAPDK+iq uEJnKTA95fiqW2j00RX/Y0acwB4ApydwcVEJ+k8nLA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedtkedguddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvfevufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfkggr tghkucghvghinhgsvghrghdfuceoiigrtghksehofihlfhholhhiohdrohhrgheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfelfeehudfhleegheegjeevheeuieehvdfgueeuteetleeiieet heefhfeludeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepiigrtghksehofihlfhholhhiohdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i876146a2:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 873F1272007C; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:36 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.11.0-alpha0-144-ge5821d614e-fm-20240125.002-ge5821d61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <18f7731b-c987-4e80-8385-20a394e94bd4@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <202401302332.40UNW4Xf021106@freefriends.org> References: <202401302332.40UNW4Xf021106@freefriends.org> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 18:34:16 -0500 From: "Zack Weinberg" To: "Karl Berry" Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Tue, Jan 30, 2024, at 6:32 PM, Karl Berry wrote: > test "$[*]" != "X conftest.ts1 conftest.ts2" || > .. > test "$[]2" = conftest.ts3 && > .. > etc. > > I've never seen anything like that before. Oh! Those square brackets are M4 quotes to prevent M4 from expanding $* and $2 itself. zw From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 31 17:10:47 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jan 2024 22:10:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39171 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rVIn9-0005sw-4R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:10:47 -0500 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:54246 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rVIn6-0005so-RQ for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:10:45 -0500 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 40VMAXK9028841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:10:34 -0700 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 40VMAXOt028840; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:10:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 15:10:33 -0700 Message-Id: <202401312210.40VMAXOt028840@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: zack@owlfolio.org Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: <18f7731b-c987-4e80-8385-20a394e94bd4@app.fastmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Those square brackets are M4 quotes to prevent M4 from expanding $* and $2 itself. Ah, right. Of course. Good! The $[*] especially confused me. Just looks so perfectly like an array reference of some strange kind :). I think it would be a tiny bit clearer to use $[]*? Or am I missing something again? More importantly, as far as the make probing goes, I have some other projects to attend to first. So most likely if you can get to it next week (fingers crossed for your new machine), that will be sooner than me. Thanks. -k From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 27 15:35:08 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2024 19:35:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45309 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sBg7f-0003PF-V5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2024 15:35:08 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:59676 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sBg7d-0003P4-8p for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2024 15:35:06 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 44RJYtRj812359 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 May 2024 13:34:55 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 44RJYsVN812358; Mon, 27 May 2024 13:34:54 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 13:34:54 -0600 Message-Id: <202405271934.44RJYsVN812358@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org, JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: <202401292300.40TN0aLt021879@freefriends.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Erik and all - I (finally) made the change below to have automake test for a make that doesn't support subsecond mtimes even when the rest of the system is ok, as you noted happens with the make-3.81 shipped by macOS. I installed make-3.8.1 on my Rocky 9 system, but it did not cause the lossage. So I'm not sure if there's an error in my test (wouldn't surprise me) or if it's something about the mac system specifically. As far as I could tell, the new code does succeed on Rocky 9. So I hope it also succeeds on other current systems where the whole subsecond-mtime thing is intended. Erik, can you either apply this patch (and remake and run the tests), or get the current automake dev sources and try it? If anyone (Zack, Bogdan, Jim, ...) else could look at, and/or try, the new code and see if any problems show up, that would be great. I hope this works and we can start pushing towards the release. --thanks, karl. --- a/m4/sanity.m4 +++ b/m4/sanity.m4 @@ -24,7 +24,7 @@ AS_IF([sleep 0.001 2>/dev/null], [am_cv_sleep_fractional_seconds=true], # nanosecond, matching clock_gettime. However, it is probably not # possible to delay execution of a shell script for less than one # millisecond, due to process creation overhead and scheduling -# granularity, so we don't check for anything finer than that. +# granularity, so we don't check for anything finer than that. (See below.) AC_DEFUN([_AM_FILESYSTEM_TIMESTAMP_RESOLUTION], [dnl AC_REQUIRE([_AM_SLEEP_FRACTIONAL_SECONDS]) AC_CACHE_CHECK([filesystem timestamp resolution], am_cv_filesystem_timestamp_resolution, [dnl @@ -34,6 +34,9 @@ am_cv_filesystem_timestamp_resolution=2 # Only try to go finer than 1s if sleep can do it. am_try_resolutions=1 if $am_cv_sleep_fractional_seconds; then + # Even a millisecond often causes a bunch of false positives, + # so just try a hundredth of a second. The time saved between .001 and + # .01 is not terribly consequential. am_try_resolutions="0.01 0.1 $am_try_resolutions" fi @@ -48,12 +51,13 @@ rm -f conftest.ts? : > conftest.ts3 # Make sure ls -t actually works. Do 'set' in a subshell so we don't -# clobber the current shell's arguments. +# clobber the current shell's arguments. (Outer-level square brackets +# are for m4; be careful, it's easy to get confused.) if ( set X `[ls -t conftest.ts[12]]` && { - test "$[*]" != "X conftest.ts1 conftest.ts2" || - test "$[*]" != "X conftest.ts2 conftest.ts1"; + test "$[]*" != "X conftest.ts1 conftest.ts2" || + test "$[]*" != "X conftest.ts2 conftest.ts1"; } ); then :; else # If neither matched, then we have a broken ls. This can happen @@ -64,7 +68,7 @@ if ( ["Bad output from ls -t: \"`[ls -t conftest.ts[12]]`\""], [AS_MESSAGE_LOG_FD]) AC_MSG_FAILURE([ls -t produces unexpected output. -Make sure there is not a broken alias in your environment.]) +Make sure there is not a broken ls alias in your environment.]) fi for am_try_res in $am_try_resolutions; do @@ -84,11 +88,47 @@ for am_try_res in $am_try_resolutions; do test "$[]2" = conftest.ts3 && test "$[]3" = conftest.ts2 && test "$[]4" = conftest.ts1); then - am_cv_filesystem_timestamp_resolution=$am_try_res - break + # + # Ok, ls -t worked. We have one more thing to check: make. + # It can happen that everything else supports the subsecond mtimes, + # but make doesn't, notably on macOS, which ships make 3.81 from + # 2006 (the last one released under GPLv2). https://bugs.gnu.org/68808 + # + # So, first let's create a Makefile: + rm -f conftest.mk + echo 'conftest.ts1: conftest.ts2' >conftest.mk + echo ' touch conftest.ts2' >>conftest.mk + # + # Now, running + # touch conftest.ts1; touch conftest.ts2; make + # should touch ts1 because ts2 is newer. This could happen by luck, + # but most often, it will fail if make's support is insufficient. So + # test for several consecutive successes. + # + # (We reuse conftest.ts[12] because we still want to modify existing + # files, not create new ones, per above.) + n=0 + make_ok=true + until test $n -eq 4; do + echo one > conftest.ts1 + sleep $am_try_res + echo two > conftest.ts2 # ts2 should now be newer than ts1 + if make -f conftest.mk | grep 'up to date' >/dev/null; then + make_ok=false + break # out of $n loop + fi + n=`expr $n + 1` + done + if $make_ok; then + # Everything we know to check worked out, so call this resolution good. + am_cv_filesystem_timestamp_resolution=$am_try_res + break # out of resolution loop + fi + # Otherwise, we'll go on to check the next resolution. fi done rm -f conftest.ts? +# (end _am_filesystem_timestamp_resolution) ])]) # AM_SANITY_CHECK compile finished at Mon May 27 10:01:57 2024 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 27 16:59:55 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2024 20:59:55 +0000 Received: from localhost 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helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sBhYH-0006fA-Qz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2024 17:06:42 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:46570 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sBhYF-0006f2-Jt for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2024 17:06:40 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 44RL6T7O818750 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 May 2024 15:06:29 -0600 Received: (from karl@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 44RL6TeO818742; Mon, 27 May 2024 15:06:29 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 May 2024 15:06:29 -0600 Message-Id: <202405272106.44RL6TeO818742@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: <5C2ABF20-A833-4C21-AD62-1D0493FE0F0C@usc.edu> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * fine on the tests that failed previously because of macOS default make having only second resolution Great! Thanks much for the instant testing. * color-tests2.sh and color-tests2-w.sh fail -- logs attached. I had tweaked some of the color stuff, so I must have messed up somewhere. Will check. -k From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 29 17:54:11 2024 Received: (at 68808) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 May 2024 21:54:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56680 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sCRFL-0000Md-CI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2024 17:54:11 -0400 Received: from frenzy.freefriends.org ([198.99.81.75]:40582 helo=freefriends.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1sCRFJ-0000MT-3j for 68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 May 2024 17:54:09 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 44TLrqeU022105 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 May 2024 15:53:52 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 44TLrqs6022104; Wed, 29 May 2024 15:53:52 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 15:53:52 -0600 Message-Id: <202405292153.44TLrqs6022104@freefriends.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="iaW44GZKZS" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Karl Berry To: JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: <5C2ABF20-A833-4C21-AD62-1D0493FE0F0C@usc.edu> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --iaW44GZKZS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: message body text Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Erik, * color-tests2.sh and color-tests2-w.sh fail -- logs attached. Is this with the old make 3.81 from the system, or the new make you compiled? What is in the "stdout" file in t/color-tests2.dir/stdout? And, are these the only two tests that fail in the entire suite? What I see in the log you sent is that color-tests2.log correctly runs make pass fail skip xpass xfail error But then the test output only shows the PASS line: .. make check-TESTS ^[[0;32mPASS^[[m: pass + test_color .. I believe that is doing "cat stdout", so everything else is missing, even the Automake "Testsuite summary" footer. I don't know why. It's as if the output from the parallel running of make check overwrote itself, or maybe never ran. But this is not a problem that's ever been reported before (and doesn't happen for me), and I haven't knowingly changed anything here. Thus I somewhat suspect this is some problem of make, and/or expect, and/or something else. If it's something we can detect, we could skip the test if we can't fix it. Help? On my system, I see (I'll attach the whole log): .. make check-TESTS make[1]: Entering directory '/u/karl/gnu/src/akarl/t/color-tests2.dir' make[2]: Entering directory '/u/karl/gnu/src/akarl/t/color-tests2.dir' ^[[0;32mPASS^[[m: pass ^[[0;31mFAIL^[[m: fail ^[[1;34mSKIP^[[m: skip ^[[0;31mXPASS^[[m: xpass ^[[1;32mXFAIL^[[m: xfail ^[[0;35mERROR^[[m: error ^[[0;31m============================================================================^[[m ^[[0;31mTestsuite summary for color-tests2 1.0^[[m .. + test_color .. (For the sake of this mail, I've removed ^M characters and replaced true ^[ ESC character with ASCII ^[.) BTW, color-tests2-w is just a wrapper of color-tests2 to test VPATH, so if we can solve color-tests2, its problems should go away too. 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68808@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jun 2024 13:48:12 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 451Hlssp257634 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 1 Jun 2024 11:47:54 -0600 Received: (from apache@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.16.1/8.14.7/Submit) id 451Hlsx5257633; Sat, 1 Jun 2024 11:47:54 -0600 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2024 11:47:54 -0600 Message-Id: <202406011747.451Hlsx5257633@freefriends.org> From: Karl Berry To: JohnsonE@usc.edu Subject: Re: bug#68808: subsecond mtime discovery code insufficient In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 68808 Cc: 68808@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Do color-tests2.sh and color-tests2-w.sh both write to the same directory and, thus, running in parallel may have caused them to be writing to the same file(s) at the same time? Every test runs in its own t/*.dir/ directory. The ct2-w.sh test sources the ct2.sh shell script, but it's still a separate test and they shouldn't be able interfere with each other. I think. Should the color test be changed to not re-use the same directory or filenames? or that one test must come before the other? The thing that confuses me is that if the problem was generically about ct2 and ct2-w stepping on each other, or a test stepping on itself, it should happen (sometimes) with any parallel make on any system. But no one has ever reported it. This makes me think it is something about make-3.81 (and/or, less likely, the mac), since that's what's different. You don't see the ct2 failures when running with the new make that you installed yourself, right? --thanks, karl.