From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:52:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings Resent-From: MON KEY Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 04:10:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 6877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 6877@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.128210454719638 (code B ref -1); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 04:10:03 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2010 04:09:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZxa-00056h-S4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:09:07 -0400 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166] helo=mx10.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZxZ-00056J-L3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:09:06 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:46873) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyb-0007dS-59 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:09 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47708 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OlZyZ-0001Yw-88 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:08 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyW-0003gQ-RL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:07 -0400 Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:53225) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyW-0003gA-HP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:04 -0400 Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so277524wyg.0 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.157.134 with SMTP id b6mr6450081wbx.115.1282104602380; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.65.140 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:02 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: QcfkvE7mYm_1rofKQ2t3vCo3STU Message-ID: From: MON KEY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) A "till" is: up to the time of <- prepositive before <- conjunctive glacier dirt <- noun a money box <- noun the act of ploughing soil <- verb an "until" is: up to the time of <- prepositive before <- conjunctive While it is considered reasonable by many[1] to substitute "till" for "until" I don't see this as something to promote in the docs esp. when there is a negligible economy in using of "till" instead of "until": (length "till") ;=> 4 (length "until") ;=> 5 And where the latter has presents little interpretational ambiguity the former does esp. vis a vis putative Emacs intl8n/translation efforts. Likewise, practitioners of many programming languages often have an immediate usage mnemonic for "until".[2] Note, following list of files/symbols/strings identify visible occurrences (i.e not inside a comment) where " till " appears in the Emacs sources and would be better suited wit the use of until: -- src/textprop.c `next-char-property-change' "This scans characters forward in the current buffer from POSITION till" `previous-char-property-change' "Scans characters backward in the current buffer from POSITION till it" `next-single-char-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION till it finds" `previous-single-char-property-change' "Scans characters backward from POSITION till it finds" `next-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION in OBJECT till it finds" `next-single-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION till it finds" `previous-property-change' "Scans characters backwards from POSITION in OBJECT till it finds" `previous-single-property-change' "Scans characters backward from POSITION till it finds" -- doc/lispref/text.texi "string or buffer @var{object} till it finds a change in some text" -- lisp/subr.el "Execute BODY, but don't call the after-change functions till the end." -- lisp/doc-view.el `doc-view-open-text' (message "DocView: please wait till conversion finished.") `doc-view-search' (message "DocView: please wait till conversion finished.") -- lisp/midnight.el `midnight-next' "Return the number of seconds till the next midnight." -- lisp/vc/vc-rcs.el `vc-release-greater-or-equal' "lower \(5.6.7 is earlier than 5.6.7.1\). Comparison runs till the end" -- calendar/appt.el `appt-mode-string' "The actual string includes the amount of time till the appointment." -- progmodes/which-func.el `which-func-non-auto-modes' "List of major modes where Which Function mode is inactive till Imenu is used." -- progmodes/fortran.el `fortran-column-ruler' "Insert a column ruler momentarily above current line, till next keystroke." -- cedet/ede/files.el `semantic-debug-go' "Continue parsing till finish or breakpoint." -- cedet/semantic/util.el `semantic-recursive-find-nonterminal-by-name' "Start search with BUFFER. Recurse through all dependencies till found." -- admin/emacs-pretesters "user-visible bugs, don't wait till pretest time. Instead, send them" "pretest time, we will have to defer them till later, and that might" admin/notes/copyright "files, which did not appear till Athena support was added in Lucid" " - had no copyright notice till Feb 2007. ChangeLog.3 suggests it was" " till Feb 2007, when FSF copyright was added. Matt Norwood advised:" --- [1] From a usage note @ dictionary.com: ,---- | | "Till" and "until" are both old in the language and are | interchangeable as both prepositions and conjunctions: | | "It rained till (or until) nearly midnight." | | "The savannah remained brown and lifeless until (or till) the rains | began." | | Till is not a shortened form of until and is not spelled "'till". | | "'Til" is usually considered a spelling error, though widely used in | advertising: | | "Open 'til ten." | `---- For example Emacs lisp has these "*-until-*' symbols: `run-hook-with-args-until-failure' `run-hook-with-args-until-success' `timer-until' Moreover other languages have untils to as evidenced with: - the until keyword in Common Lisp's `loop' macro, - the Perl until operator see `perl-font-lock-keywords-2' - Delphi Pascals until see `delphi-keywords' - Pascal is littered with "until" references See pascal-mode's `pascal-start-keywords' - Ada 95 has them too, see `ada-95-string-keywords' - Icon has it in `icon-resword-alist' and `icon-font-lock-keywords-2' - IDL has it in `idlwave-idl-keywords' - MetaFont/MetaPost has one in `meta-common-primitives-list' - Modula-2 has until in `m3-font-lock-keywords-2' - Octave - you betcha - see `octave-end-keywords' - Ruby too try `ruby-block-beg-keywords' - sh has some as well see `sh-leading-keywords', `sh-indent-for-do', etc. - Simula 87 - yep try `simula-font-lock-keywords-2' - SQL - why not try the Linter, Oracle, and Postgres keywords - Verilog - but of course check out `verilog-keywords' - VHDL won't be left out its in `vhdl-93-keywords' -- /s_P\ From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:52:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:47:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: MON KEY Cc: 6877@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 6877-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6877.128214636622034 (code B ref 6877); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:47:01 +0000 Received: (at 6877) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2010 15:46:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Olkq5-0005jK-DY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:46:05 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Olkq2-0005ix-LI for 6877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:46:03 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7C00400UD6U600@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 6877@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:47:06 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.220.100]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7C004X6UID8N50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:47:02 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:45:03 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83ocd0q60w.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:02 -0400 > From: MON KEY > Cc: > > Note, following list of files/symbols/strings identify visible > occurrences (i.e not inside a comment) where " till " appears in the > Emacs sources and would be better suited wit the use of until: Quite a few of them could become longer than one line if "till" is replaced by "until". (They are already too long, IMO.) Emacs coding guidelines mandate that the short description fit on a single line. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:52:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:29:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix notabug To: Ted Zlatanov Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.129182209314228 (code B ref -1); Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:29:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2010 15:28:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQLwC-0003hQ-Op for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:28:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQLwA-0003hF-Vd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:28:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQM1w-0003kD-5V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:08 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:55150) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQM1w-0003k9-3X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:08 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=54187 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQM1u-0007wE-QI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQM1s-0003jD-VJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:42857) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQM1s-0003j9-Se for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:04 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQM1p-0003ht-ML; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:01 -0500 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <87k4nma0aa.fsf@lifelogs.com> (message from Ted Zlatanov on Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:07:57 -0500) References: <87k4nma0aa.fsf@lifelogs.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:34:01 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.5 (------) > From: Ted Zlatanov > Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:07:57 -0500 > > EZ> Quite a few of them could become longer than one line if "till" is > EZ> replaced by "until". (They are already too long, IMO.) Emacs coding > EZ> guidelines mandate that the short description fit on a single line. > > I think that can be resolved by judicious editing. Generally we should > not contort the language to save a character; let's fix the long lines > instead of using "till." I count 228 ocurrences in the Emacs source (67 > in the source according to `ack') and will fix them[1] if you agree. Given editing that is "judicious" enough, I certainly agree ;-) TIA From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:52:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6877 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix notabug To: "'Ted Zlatanov'" , Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.129182341116225 (code B ref -1); Wed, 08 Dec 2010 15:51:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2010 15:50:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMHT-0004Dd-Bz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:50:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMHS-0004DS-Hi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:50:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMND-00088m-Qm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:56:08 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:43781) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMND-00088i-P2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:56:07 -0500 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50678 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQMNC-0002Dm-L4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:56:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMNB-00088N-Kg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:56:06 -0500 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:60380) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PQMNB-00088C-9y for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:56:05 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id oB8Fu2ON012560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Dec 2010 15:56:04 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id oB7K7Bw8008711; Wed, 8 Dec 2010 15:55:58 GMT Received: from abhmt009.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 856496021291823662; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:54:22 -0800 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.245.200) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 07:54:22 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <87d3tgdo32.fsf@lifelogs.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 07:54:20 -0800 Message-ID: <2A3C36CC5C1D448BBE6EBBD70A2E2420@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87d3tgdo32.fsf@lifelogs.com> Thread-Index: AcuW6T8Tn0AztrxHT06OAdaz5uanQgABuF1w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > Seconded. Thirded (in case it matters). From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:52:05 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.427 (Entity 5.427) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: MON KEY Subject: bug#6877: closed (Re: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings) Message-ID: References: <3yvcs1zrd9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 6877 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs X-Gnu-PR-Keywords: wontfix notabug Reply-To: 6877@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 22:30:03 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1317940203-15649-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1317940203-15649-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 6877@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 6877: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D6877 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1317940203-15649-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 6877-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2011 22:29:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RBwRM-00043K-NC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:29:21 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RBwRK-00043D-Qs for 6877-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:29:19 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RBwR9-00085p-3u; Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:29:07 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: 6877-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#6877: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings References: <83ocd0q60w.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Serbian United Nations Iran ANZUS Plame AK-47 Rand X-Ran: c-o8I+Md19m@UvwH0wmzD@K$bCbP-)r`%%g*'|O->a38ZDpQ\hVP=.N|jkq>Ezf.$gi6dr X-Hue: blue X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:29:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83ocd0q60w.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:45:03 +0300") Message-ID: <3yvcs1zrd9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 6877-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) These uses of "till" seems like perfectly good English to me. ------------=_1317940203-15649-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Aug 2010 04:09:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZxa-00056h-S4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:09:07 -0400 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166] helo=mx10.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZxZ-00056J-L3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:09:06 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]:46873) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyb-0007dS-59 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:09 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47708 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OlZyZ-0001Yw-88 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:08 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyW-0003gQ-RL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:07 -0400 Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:53225) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OlZyW-0003gA-HP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:04 -0400 Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so277524wyg.0 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.157.134 with SMTP id b6mr6450081wbx.115.1282104602380; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.65.140 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:10:02 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: QcfkvE7mYm_1rofKQ2t3vCo3STU Message-ID: Subject: Documentation: "till" vs "until" in docstrings From: MON KEY To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) A "till" is: up to the time of <- prepositive before <- conjunctive glacier dirt <- noun a money box <- noun the act of ploughing soil <- verb an "until" is: up to the time of <- prepositive before <- conjunctive While it is considered reasonable by many[1] to substitute "till" for "until" I don't see this as something to promote in the docs esp. when there is a negligible economy in using of "till" instead of "until": (length "till") ;=> 4 (length "until") ;=> 5 And where the latter has presents little interpretational ambiguity the former does esp. vis a vis putative Emacs intl8n/translation efforts. Likewise, practitioners of many programming languages often have an immediate usage mnemonic for "until".[2] Note, following list of files/symbols/strings identify visible occurrences (i.e not inside a comment) where " till " appears in the Emacs sources and would be better suited wit the use of until: -- src/textprop.c `next-char-property-change' "This scans characters forward in the current buffer from POSITION till" `previous-char-property-change' "Scans characters backward in the current buffer from POSITION till it" `next-single-char-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION till it finds" `previous-single-char-property-change' "Scans characters backward from POSITION till it finds" `next-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION in OBJECT till it finds" `next-single-property-change' "Scans characters forward from POSITION till it finds" `previous-property-change' "Scans characters backwards from POSITION in OBJECT till it finds" `previous-single-property-change' "Scans characters backward from POSITION till it finds" -- doc/lispref/text.texi "string or buffer @var{object} till it finds a change in some text" -- lisp/subr.el "Execute BODY, but don't call the after-change functions till the end." -- lisp/doc-view.el `doc-view-open-text' (message "DocView: please wait till conversion finished.") `doc-view-search' (message "DocView: please wait till conversion finished.") -- lisp/midnight.el `midnight-next' "Return the number of seconds till the next midnight." -- lisp/vc/vc-rcs.el `vc-release-greater-or-equal' "lower \(5.6.7 is earlier than 5.6.7.1\). Comparison runs till the end" -- calendar/appt.el `appt-mode-string' "The actual string includes the amount of time till the appointment." -- progmodes/which-func.el `which-func-non-auto-modes' "List of major modes where Which Function mode is inactive till Imenu is used." -- progmodes/fortran.el `fortran-column-ruler' "Insert a column ruler momentarily above current line, till next keystroke." -- cedet/ede/files.el `semantic-debug-go' "Continue parsing till finish or breakpoint." -- cedet/semantic/util.el `semantic-recursive-find-nonterminal-by-name' "Start search with BUFFER. Recurse through all dependencies till found." -- admin/emacs-pretesters "user-visible bugs, don't wait till pretest time. Instead, send them" "pretest time, we will have to defer them till later, and that might" admin/notes/copyright "files, which did not appear till Athena support was added in Lucid" " - had no copyright notice till Feb 2007. ChangeLog.3 suggests it was" " till Feb 2007, when FSF copyright was added. Matt Norwood advised:" --- [1] From a usage note @ dictionary.com: ,---- | | "Till" and "until" are both old in the language and are | interchangeable as both prepositions and conjunctions: | | "It rained till (or until) nearly midnight." | | "The savannah remained brown and lifeless until (or till) the rains | began." | | Till is not a shortened form of until and is not spelled "'till". | | "'Til" is usually considered a spelling error, though widely used in | advertising: | | "Open 'til ten." | `---- For example Emacs lisp has these "*-until-*' symbols: `run-hook-with-args-until-failure' `run-hook-with-args-until-success' `timer-until' Moreover other languages have untils to as evidenced with: - the until keyword in Common Lisp's `loop' macro, - the Perl until operator see `perl-font-lock-keywords-2' - Delphi Pascals until see `delphi-keywords' - Pascal is littered with "until" references See pascal-mode's `pascal-start-keywords' - Ada 95 has them too, see `ada-95-string-keywords' - Icon has it in `icon-resword-alist' and `icon-font-lock-keywords-2' - IDL has it in `idlwave-idl-keywords' - MetaFont/MetaPost has one in `meta-common-primitives-list' - Modula-2 has until in `m3-font-lock-keywords-2' - Octave - you betcha - see `octave-end-keywords' - Ruby too try `ruby-block-beg-keywords' - sh has some as well see `sh-leading-keywords', `sh-indent-for-do', etc. - Simula 87 - yep try `simula-font-lock-keywords-2' - SQL - why not try the Linter, Oracle, and Postgres keywords - Verilog - but of course check out `verilog-keywords' - VHDL won't be left out its in `vhdl-93-keywords' -- /s_P\ ------------=_1317940203-15649-1--