GNU bug report logs - #68369
[BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from message #22

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from message #22
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:01:32 +0000

A. Open any Rmail mailbox with at least 22 messages. Suppose for 
simplicity that this Rmail mailbox is connected via imap to a remote 
mailbox which won't receive any new message for the duration of our 
experiment.
B. Place yourself over any message from 1 to 21: the echo area says 
nothing. Now press the key "g" to update your mailbox, the echo area 
displays "0 new messages read"
C. Place yourself over message number 22 or higher (say we choose number 
22): the echo area now says "Showing message 22...done"!! Now press the 
key "g" to update your mailbox, the echo area now displays "Showing 
message 22...done"!!

What is going on from message #22?

Message #8 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net
Cc: 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:42:44 +0200

> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:01:32 +0000
> From: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net
> 
> A. Open any Rmail mailbox with at least 22 messages. Suppose for 
> simplicity that this Rmail mailbox is connected via imap to a remote 
> mailbox which won't receive any new message for the duration of our 
> experiment.
> B. Place yourself over any message from 1 to 21: the echo area says 
> nothing. Now press the key "g" to update your mailbox, the echo area 
> displays "0 new messages read"
> C. Place yourself over message number 22 or higher (say we choose number 
> 22): the echo area now says "Showing message 22...done"!! Now press the 
> key "g" to update your mailbox, the echo area now displays "Showing 
> message 22...done"!!
> 
> What is going on from message #22?

See rmail-show-message-verbose-min.

This is not a bug.

Message #15 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 22:50:33 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > See rmail-show-message-verbose-min.

  > This is not a bug.

It is not a bug in the functionality, but I wonder if there
is a way to make it more self-explanatory.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #18 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 09:25:21 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 22:50:33 -0500
> 
>   > See rmail-show-message-verbose-min.
> 
>   > This is not a bug.
> 
> It is not a bug in the functionality, but I wonder if there
> is a way to make it more self-explanatory.

Which aspects of this do you think need better explanations?

Message #21 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 22:31:25 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   > See rmail-show-message-verbose-min.
  > > 
  > >   > This is not a bug.
  > > 
  > > It is not a bug in the functionality, but I wonder if there
  > > is a way to make it more self-explanatory.

  > Which aspects of this do you think need better explanations?

It is not a matter of explanation -- rather, is there a way to
modify the feature a tiny bit such that its meaning will be evident.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #24 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:29:16 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 22:31:25 -0500
> 
>   > >   > See rmail-show-message-verbose-min.
>   > > 
>   > >   > This is not a bug.
>   > > 
>   > > It is not a bug in the functionality, but I wonder if there
>   > > is a way to make it more self-explanatory.
> 
>   > Which aspects of this do you think need better explanations?
> 
> It is not a matter of explanation -- rather, is there a way to
> modify the feature a tiny bit such that its meaning will be evident.

Sorry, I still don't think I follow.  What kind of changes in the
feature you had in mind that would make its meaning evident?

Message #27 received at 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:37:56 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > It is not a matter of explanation -- rather, is there a way to
  > > modify the feature a tiny bit such that its meaning will be evident.

  > Sorry, I still don't think I follow.  What kind of changes in the
  > feature you had in mind that would make its meaning evident?

I don't have any specific ideas for that feature.  I'm suggesting that
other people look for interface ideas to make this more self-explanatory.
Maybe we will find one.  If not, well will still have the option of
trying to explain it better.

If we don't find one, we will still have the option of documenting it
better.

Our usual first response to any wish for an interface to be clearer is
to write documentation, and for wishing for it to be more featureful,
is to add optional features.  However, I learned over the years that
it was always good to try to design a feature to be more self-evident.
When I tried this, sometimes I succeeded.  The result was a simpler
program which could do more without more options or more documentation.

So it is always good to think for a while about ways to do that,
before resorting to the less elegant approach.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #32 received at 68369-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#68369: [BUG] Unexpected behaviour with Rmail starting from
 message #22
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 08:31:36 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: rameiko87 <at> posteo.net, 68369 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:37:56 -0500
> 
>   > > It is not a matter of explanation -- rather, is there a way to
>   > > modify the feature a tiny bit such that its meaning will be evident.
> 
>   > Sorry, I still don't think I follow.  What kind of changes in the
>   > feature you had in mind that would make its meaning evident?
> 
> I don't have any specific ideas for that feature.  I'm suggesting that
> other people look for interface ideas to make this more self-explanatory.
> Maybe we will find one.  If not, well will still have the option of
> trying to explain it better.
> 
> If we don't find one, we will still have the option of documenting it
> better.

Thanks, I made the doc string more clear about the effect of the
option, and I'm therefore closing this bug.

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