GNU bug report logs - #67848
29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:18:20 -0800

In the lisp intro book, there is a discrepancy in the section "Text and
Auto Fill mode" where the first code example uses "(setq-default
major-mode 'text-mode)"[1] but in the later explanation part the
function was changed to `setq'[2].  It looks like the original change[3]
was to deprecate the usage of "default-major-mode", but forgot to update
the other part.

I have prepared a patch to make it consistent, and also added some extra
text to explain why `setq-default' is required for a buffer local
variable using a foot note.  Will add in the next mail.

[1] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi#n16902
[2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi#n16946
[3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=cd61af01c1220b6a7f98189c826edc7535416583



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Message #8 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
To: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:26:30 -0800

[0001-Fix-usage-of-setq-default-and-add-explanation-bug-67.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

From 197467583063492dee7bc2fc40709ecb3a3d17e9 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 02:06:15 -0800
Subject: [PATCH] Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation (bug#67848)

cd61af0 changed from default-major-mode to major-mode in the first
code sample but didn't change the rest.  Fix it here and add some
explanations of why use `setq-default' instead of `setq'.

* doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi (Text and Auto-fill): fix `setq'
to `setq-default' and add some explanations.
---
 doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi | 11 ++++++++---
 1 file changed, 8 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index eb8ff413b79..2468571eb96 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -16943,14 +16943,19 @@ Here is the line again; how does it work?
 
 @cindex Text Mode turned on
 @smallexample
-(setq major-mode 'text-mode)
+(setq-default major-mode 'text-mode)
 @end smallexample
 
 @noindent
 This line is a short, but complete Emacs Lisp expression.
 
-We are already familiar with @code{setq}.  It sets the following variable,
-@code{major-mode}, to the subsequent value, which is @code{text-mode}.
+We are already familiar with @code{setq}.  We use a similar macro
+@code{setq-default} to set the following variable,
+@code{major-mode}@footnote{We use @code{setq-default} because
+@code{text-mode} is buffer local.  If we use @code{setq} it will only
+apply to the current buffer, and using @code{setq-default} will also
+apply this to newly created buffers.}, to the subsequent value, which is
+@code{text-mode}.
 The single-quote before @code{text-mode} tells Emacs to deal directly
 with the @code{text-mode} symbol, not with whatever it might stand for.
 @xref{set & setq, , Setting the Value of a Variable},
-- 
2.39.2

Message #13 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer <at> gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier <at> web.de>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] WIP: gnu: icedove: Update to 115.5.2.
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 17:02:20 -0500

Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier <at> web.de> writes:

> * gnu/packages/gnuzilla.scm (all-mozilla-102-locales,
> %icecat-102-base-version, %icecat-102-version, icecat-102-source):
> Remove variables.
> (%icedove-build-id, %icedove-version, thunderbird-comm-source): Update for 115.5.2.
> (thunderbird-comm-l10n): Switch to provided tarball.
> (icedove-source)[origin]: Add `zstd` package. Use `icecat-source`.
> Provide l10n folder from tarball.
> (icedove-minimal)[arguments]: Use MACH_BUILD_PYTHON_NATIVE_PACKAGE_SOURCE instead
> of deprecated MACH_USE_SYSTEM_PYTHON. Use GUIX_PYTHONPATH and bundled
> NSS library.
> [inputs]: Use `icu4c-73-promise`. Add `nspr`. Remove `nss` for now.

Thanks for working on this!

I don't think it's acceptable to reintroduce bundling for NSS, unless we
have strong reasons to.  We should rather introduce a new NSS variant at
a sufficient version in a prior commit.  NSS takes time to build, but
otherwise shouldn't be too difficult, if I recall correctly my
experience doing it.

-- 
Thanks,
Maxim

Message #16 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier <at> web.de>
To: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] WIP: gnu: icedove: Update to 115.5.2.
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:27:30 +0100

Am 17.12.23 um 23:02 schrieb Maxim Cournoyer:> I don't think it's
acceptable to reintroduce bundling for NSS, unless we
> have strong reasons to.  We should rather introduce a new NSS variant at
> a sufficient version in a prior commit.  NSS takes time to build, but
> otherwise shouldn't be too difficult, if I recall correctly my
> experience doing it.

Oke, I'll try to prepare a newer NSS and use it also in Icecat (which
switched also to the bundled NSS).

Message #19 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer <at> gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier <at> web.de>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH] WIP: gnu: icedove: Update to 115.5.2.
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 11:40:26 -0500

Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier <at> web.de> writes:

> Am 17.12.23 um 23:02 schrieb Maxim Cournoyer:> I don't think it's
> acceptable to reintroduce bundling for NSS, unless we
>> have strong reasons to.  We should rather introduce a new NSS variant at
>> a sufficient version in a prior commit.  NSS takes time to build, but
>> otherwise shouldn't be too difficult, if I recall correctly my
>> experience doing it.
>
> Oke, I'll try to prepare a newer NSS and use it also in Icecat (which
> switched also to the bundled NSS).

Sounds good, I'll be happy to review it!

-- 
Thanks,
Maxim

Message #22 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:00:58 +0200

> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:18:20 -0800
> 
> 
> In the lisp intro book, there is a discrepancy in the section "Text and
> Auto Fill mode" where the first code example uses "(setq-default
> major-mode 'text-mode)"[1] but in the later explanation part the
> function was changed to `setq'[2].  It looks like the original change[3]
> was to deprecate the usage of "default-major-mode", but forgot to update
> the other part.
> 
> I have prepared a patch to make it consistent, and also added some extra
> text to explain why `setq-default' is required for a buffer local
> variable using a foot note.  Will add in the next mail.

Thanks, but I think it's wrong to use setq-default here, since that
makes Text mode the default major-mode (instead of Fundamental), which
is not what most people would want.

I think we should instead do one of the following:

  . convert the _first_ setq-default to setq
  . do as above, and also explain that people who really want Emacs to
    start new buffers in Text mode should use setq-default

Would you like to amend your patch along these lines?

Message #25 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:09:29 -0800

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:18:20 -0800
>> 
>> 
>> In the lisp intro book, there is a discrepancy in the section "Text and
>> Auto Fill mode" where the first code example uses "(setq-default
>> major-mode 'text-mode)"[1] but in the later explanation part the
>> function was changed to `setq'[2].  It looks like the original change[3]
>> was to deprecate the usage of "default-major-mode", but forgot to update
>> the other part.
>> 
>> I have prepared a patch to make it consistent, and also added some extra
>> text to explain why `setq-default' is required for a buffer local
>> variable using a foot note.  Will add in the next mail.
>
> Thanks, but I think it's wrong to use setq-default here, since that
> makes Text mode the default major-mode (instead of Fundamental), which
> is not what most people would want.

Actually making text-mode the default mode for new files is exactly what
the author intended based on the text from an earlier section[1].  In
addition, the previous change was to deprecate `default-major-mode'
which used to achieve the same effect.  So it looks like that the
intention to change the default major-mode for new files is consistent
through the text.

Of course, whether this is a good advice is a slightly different matter,
and may be worth discussing in a footnote if it sounds worth doing.  But
based on the text flow setting the new default major-mode should not be
changed IMHO.

>
> I think we should instead do one of the following:
>
>   . convert the _first_ setq-default to setq
>   . do as above, and also explain that people who really want Emacs to
>     start new buffers in Text mode should use setq-default
>
> Would you like to amend your patch along these lines?

[1] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi#n16569

-- 
Xiyue Deng

Message #28 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:20:41 +0200

> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:09:29 -0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> >> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:18:20 -0800
> >> 
> >> 
> > Thanks, but I think it's wrong to use setq-default here, since that
> > makes Text mode the default major-mode (instead of Fundamental), which
> > is not what most people would want.
> 
> Actually making text-mode the default mode for new files is exactly what
> the author intended based on the text from an earlier section[1].

I know, but I don't want that to be said without reservations, or not
at all.  The author's hope was that there will be many readers of this
manual who are not programmers, and who would then prefer Text mode as
the default.  We are now a few decades wiser, and we know that hope
didn't really materialize.  So we should not advertise such a setting
without some explanations.

> Of course, whether this is a good advice is a slightly different matter,
> and may be worth discussing in a footnote if it sounds worth doing.  But
> based on the text flow setting the new default major-mode should not be
> changed IMHO.

Sorry, I disagree, for the reasons explained above.

Thanks.

Message #31 received at 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 23:00:59 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 02:09:29 -0800
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 03:18:20 -0800
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> > Thanks, but I think it's wrong to use setq-default here, since that
>> > makes Text mode the default major-mode (instead of Fundamental), which
>> > is not what most people would want.
>> 
>> Actually making text-mode the default mode for new files is exactly what
>> the author intended based on the text from an earlier section[1].
>
> I know, but I don't want that to be said without reservations, or not
> at all.  The author's hope was that there will be many readers of this
> manual who are not programmers, and who would then prefer Text mode as
> the default.  We are now a few decades wiser, and we know that hope
> didn't really materialize.  So we should not advertise such a setting
> without some explanations.

While I kind of agree with what you said here, this requires a much
larger rewrite of the text, because there are several paragraphs that
span several sections that follows the author's original advice of
making newly opened files to use text-mode instead of fundamental mode
by default.  Neither being a writer, nor even a native English speaker,
I don't consider myself a good candidate to make such a drastic change
to this classic book.

So instead I added another footnote at the first sentence of this
section to suggest that the suggestion was aimed for writers and the
reader can feel free not to do this.  The new patch is attached.  PTAL.

-- 
Xiyue Deng

[0001-Fix-usage-of-setq-default-and-offer-more-suggestions.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #36 received at 67848-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 67848-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#67848: 29.1; Fix usage of `setq-default' and add explanation
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:47:09 +0200

> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 67848 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 23:00:59 -0800
> 
> While I kind of agree with what you said here, this requires a much
> larger rewrite of the text, because there are several paragraphs that
> span several sections that follows the author's original advice of
> making newly opened files to use text-mode instead of fundamental mode
> by default.  Neither being a writer, nor even a native English speaker,
> I don't consider myself a good candidate to make such a drastic change
> to this classic book.
> 
> So instead I added another footnote at the first sentence of this
> section to suggest that the suggestion was aimed for writers and the
> reader can feel free not to do this.  The new patch is attached.  PTAL.

Thanks, installed on the emacs-29 branch, and closing the bug.

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