From unknown Fri Aug 15 16:19:47 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#67638 <67638@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#67638 <67638@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 Reply-To: bug#67638 <67638@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 23:19:47 +0000 retitle 67638 Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs = 29.1 reassign 67638 emacs submitter 67638 rameiko87@posteo.net severity 67638 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 00:01:58 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2023 05:01:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36277 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rANZD-0001Pn-Jp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 00:01:58 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:37066) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAILB-0000nx-BG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 18:27:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAIKt-0004y3-Pq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 18:26:48 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAIKo-0003AG-LU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 18:26:46 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25C15240101 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2023 00:26:40 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1701732400; bh=1DmniIQYJW/nQxE65PWEv0mX1V8SZL/qx2SLHA/z8HM=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=LsbK8j9LwyoU+HxE+0VKAU/QifI5+CAEwr0mnntuTFkMyPiFa7lUyz+ja4S1+n/Qn rqeft77mwyG0hE8yqDebU6E0ESdMJLBkEuzUFF6F3Nm3ImCsaXalAwRfSR1KSj5XBI B+sGrAB2Dim2sIyRbxlz11cvQg0F7gyL2G4EsjYxhuoqe2Qi+J6C/Bwm3+inHq9rnz JVWLmrXh20W2xriIUX+VJuq6GLemE+MVjfI9bGszHkaYikRqgIHdNaUu9bNhsnb8+a pVy8nQxkCBNIqmERBX6hUEqDshuhXk0+vnMwdMxgc8Dj1rw76GwoJbVAnv4OOjzjI3 S3W80c4WxuCrg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Skfv36lVwz6tvd for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2023 00:26:39 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2023 23:26:39 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 Message-ID: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=rameiko87@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 00:01:47 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) I would appreciate clarifying this variable. I have difficulties understanding what the variable=20 message-mail-user-agent means and what the options mean. The description=20 for this variable doesn't help: > Like =E2=80=98mail-user-agent=E2=80=99. I don't know what this sentence means. > Except if it is nil, use Gnus native MUA; if it is t, use=20 > =E2=80=98mail-user-agent=E2=80=99. Please remove Except from the beginning of the sentence, because=20 non-native English speakers like myself think that "Except if it is nil"=20 means "Whenever not nil". It may be correct, but it's confusing to some=20 people. Perhaps the confusion arises because there's a full stop rather=20 than a comma. If the except links the sentence to the one above, then why write "if it=20 is t, use =E2=80=98mail-user-agent=E2=80=99 ", which is a repetition at thi= s point? Now=20 it looks from the description like there should be two options, but=20 instead there's five. I'm totally at loss! From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 09:32:18 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2023 14:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36797 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWTC-0007qR-7i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:32:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35668) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWT9-0007qD-TO for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:32:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWSs-0005y9-7O; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:31:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=dThooD8TVRuZpCYkF69acG1BpOb7A/0nDp194b5TPJk=; b=pr9k61mDoHYZpZnZceUv LOSPhmK1eCEBGTVYPftglGvQ3SBC5/SQkKDrm6gOk8Ug33PNcJmIOQWUx7GtcDKsMvWj0jG1XXx3r tMRhQXS+BRAKojQdkx3Bsoc+tNgAUWS35NE1rLyRMo2ZTfBt98AGq+/yyL+4yM5H+B3TY3ne55n7h TPY02O+sMzqD9i/aGxqvm8aSr+zXbBA8yFydyx69wHuPDvK47IfKSa1qB4n21ih0OuS3ErOsmFOBO vT6zNg+1WXvyIG9X26PMicC9VUI9Tawfu5KCzG60w0IPJ/+fd3UqHqfRgru3cObeuSVliL1KtXa/P FUO7a5yFMGsp3A==; Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:32:05 +0200 Message-Id: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2023 23:26:39 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > > I would appreciate clarifying this variable. Thanks, I did that on the emacs-29 branch. > > Like ‘mail-user-agent’. > I don't know what this sentence means. It means you should click the link and read on mail-user-agent, before you continue reading this doc string. This is the style we use to avoid repeating the same information in more than one doc string. > > Except if it is nil, use Gnus native MUA; if it is t, use > > ‘mail-user-agent’. > Please remove Except from the beginning of the sentence, because > non-native English speakers like myself think that "Except if it is nil" > means "Whenever not nil". It may be correct, but it's confusing to some > people. Perhaps the confusion arises because there's a full stop rather > than a comma. > > If the except links the sentence to the one above, then why write "if it > is t, use ‘mail-user-agent’ ", which is a repetition at this point? Now > it looks from the description like there should be two options, but > instead there's five. > > I'm totally at loss! Here's the new doc string: "Your preferred mail composition package when reading email with message.el. Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the mail-sending package you prefer. The value can be any value accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 09:34:13 2023 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2023 14:34:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36804 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWV2-0007tT-5i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:34:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41962) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWUz-0007t7-H9; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:34:10 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAWUh-0006Bw-3A; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 09:33:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=kKq2JkxkOl1laWv+JFHffRz8kTrQnREyd7qNqA7J7Qc=; b=KlwV1JtDjUJ0ezED9QEy r0PLL2mxWTSjcEgCUM9YAUzKToKeo4gDe3thK2LAlRjs92nqGAuiquWEyCl1/gi1t91vfG7JNL3/w PNFziw95JzlRQiliMx9N3Kj81RKBl+smpUqJ1Epbd6+maPi+umVZtd4W9pSqUPpBslF4gNC4YgWCn gNN3L6D7hEcYpQhnWE6kMSKGyIw33+WuQOCB5kamBRNz6d+DQh4Mjf6W7SI7V0bzkj24wk3f92wrI Okaz1Sa7D89/VMktmLzo6UJgo6xhjSWZN01NzXQlMXAoCSmi+d9UxCVq38YAUltt0r/Er95kgNUps l9LglZtmCp/5AA==; Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:33:16 +0200 Message-Id: <83y1e84t3n.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <559d556ef47c13fe772d392923a0db18@posteo.net> (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67639: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <559d556ef47c13fe772d392923a0db18@posteo.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control Cc: 67639@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) merge 67639 67638 close 67638 thanks > Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2023 23:27:37 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > > I would appreciate clarifying this variable. > > I have difficulties understanding what the variable > message-mail-user-agent means and what the options mean. The description > for this variable doesn't help: > > > Like ‘mail-user-agent’. > I don't know what this sentence means. > > > Except if it is nil, use Gnus native MUA; if it is t, use > > ‘mail-user-agent’. > Please remove Except from the beginning of the sentence, because > non-native English speakers like myself think that "Except if it is nil" > means "Whenever not nil". It may be correct, but it's confusing to some > people. Perhaps the confusion arises because there's a full stop rather > than a comma. > > If the except links the sentence to the one above, then why write "if it > is t, use ‘mail-user-agent’ ", which is a repetition at this point? Now > it looks from the description like there should be two options, but > instead there's five. > > I'm totally at loss! This is an exact duplicate of bug#67638, so I'm now closing both as fixed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 11:22:38 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2023 16:22:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38159 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAYBx-00088a-PZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:22:38 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:37545) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAYBu-00088I-Gf for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:22:36 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2B27240029 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:22:17 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1701793337; bh=9Xcg6zaPm05rIhp9i11mTDJNajtLaVFwCAEFQZoDAGE=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=TYOR2c0UIdtQ289uiUCw6y1vEL2lof2Q42X+pfiPe45pbLyqCqbdxZB57lw5pkgXR ofi1PdYeMC/+WPvHe9wJnaNkK2zvyxouMhRaiXjcUECFdB0/cf2Ol4EZ3MgB7yVdAJ lPOmlsZ3tUpch1voHPOstTlz4GIuWoVqVfk1nF/GC7xKHUpD4QXZ80wErxhIQLvEdV 9wqZ3z5TL86Go6GXRul3b50XdZiiIxLZ+IpCBEFSLAuJz48MHRCecxHaZr5jRyD0Qi 0yMq6tYtzwd42oR3A+fHvj1FAIvkqPIgOZ47l5yMjJ46Kjh2KaQjFFEnICELOJhRjx nK0Rg8AZ5vyuQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Sl5Qx0jkzz6tmv; Tue, 5 Dec 2023 17:22:17 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:22:17 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dear Eli, Thanks very much for your swift reply. Please understand that I mean no disturbance through my questions, I'm only trying to understand. What is confusing me still is that mail-user-agent sets the composition package for outgoing emails (in my personal configuration this is the Message package, in my mind this is the MUA being used when writing emails). The message-mail-user-agent variable instead it's not clear what is setting. > "Your preferred mail composition package when reading email with > message.el. But I read my emails with Rmail. Perhaps you meant "when composing emails with message.el"? If yes, I thought that the message package was the email composition package and that I assigned this with the variable mail-user-agent, so I'm not sure what I'm setting here. > Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the mail-sending > package you prefer. Now the composition package from the first quote turned into sending package! What is a mail sending package? How is this variable the "analogous" of mail-user-agent (I really don't like that "Like")? > The value can be any value accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in > addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native > Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'." Why is the default the Gnus package? The problem is that I still don't understand the difference with mail-user-agent. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 12:14:08 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2023 17:14:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAYzo-0001CQ-0q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 12:14:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57224) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rAYzm-0001Br-Ns for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 12:14:07 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAYzW-0000ym-2z; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 12:13:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=vmBufB8PUNdcw1C+2Lyqgu/I8wv5XksQCdtNIY+nQRA=; b=pCtSbWF7lfRJ HqdMajBw/JecmZ6lEEXJL36dnseMqb8RpXoGMA+qzu16PXa47KXZsj6apW/T8JKnf+sIYmIk7BMVA reJX5K+OQqto8mY1XcrQfLQQAJQEwo/g5V2VXmQ0NHmHZ6a35o80ZGUwemIFI6dw3w33vsIOQmg8O yCk34nETPi3UwfRcNpAz8LlmXZ2PYd6vf1WIUEB1ghaqanTmugZHYdCFcFg7OHwdLjqSwBv4Y6XA4 4OyHXSrB6U22zls4lQQvpP0/LjPVT/HYJJbL7SPDd/zuXr/VqLVRvECoiUenZM3RqhdEjT8GzLRFb HwAij4taKA4zztFvsiyZtw==; Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 19:13:57 +0200 Message-Id: <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:22:17 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > Dear Eli, > Thanks very much for your swift reply. Please understand that I mean no > disturbance through my questions, I'm only trying to understand. What is > confusing me still is that mail-user-agent sets the composition package > for outgoing emails (in my personal configuration this is the Message > package, in my mind this is the MUA being used when writing emails). The > message-mail-user-agent variable instead it's not clear what is setting. message.el basically implements the message-mode, which is a specialized text-editing mode. It does not itself deal with email-specific stuff, like mail headers, the structure of the message according to the various RFCs, and neither does it handle the sending process itself. > > "Your preferred mail composition package when reading email with > > message.el. > > But I read my emails with Rmail. Perhaps you meant "when composing > emails with message.el"? No. > If yes, I thought that the message package was > the email composition package No, see above. "Mail User Agent" is separate from message.el. > and that I assigned this with the variable > mail-user-agent, so I'm not sure what I'm setting here. If you want mail-user-agent to take precedence, you need to customize message-mail-user-agent to the value t. That's what the doc string says. > > Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the mail-sending > > package you prefer. > > Now the composition package from the first quote turned into sending > package! What is a mail sending package? Mail User Agent is both. See below. > How is this variable the > "analogous" of mail-user-agent (I really don't like that "Like")? Once again, "like", with a hyperlink after it, invites you to read the documentation of mail-user-agent. This is our usual style in doc strings to avoid repetition. > > The value can be any value accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in > > addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native > > Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'." > > Why is the default the Gnus package? Because message.el was originally part of Gnus, and Gnus users expect that default. > The problem is that I still don't understand the difference with > mail-user-agent. They are two separate options, and users have the freedom which one to customize and how. Next iteration of the doc string below. "Your preferred package for composing and sending email when using message.el. Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the package you prefer to use for composing and sending email messages. The value can be anything accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'. For more about mail user agents, see Info node `(emacs)Mail Methods'" From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 06 18:53:42 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2023 23:53:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40672 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rB1i2-0000Yx-0Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:53:42 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42579) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rB1hy-0000Yg-8l for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:53:40 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 377DC240027 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 00:53:20 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1701906800; bh=unpIhTEyb0M57t84YVpRsbE1mcyf2TSibYjOzmDEp4c=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=iiVpm240IfgP1SEkQNo7yD2kdhd/LE9mnqAxMUGIZV//hJOTAKdzEJ3WHIY4jL4vG yA3OhamPi4aqCr7sKVFD6t/BKaFNmFoqU1Ajfe7E2Wzr9S+pm8iPIXhJgPPDSdKtAP TXfjIBzghlLrgZamEpjgXqTI4+4plvf/35ByZbvbqeDCOFXBZqPek6RHgzckMHu146 7hoi3cgaoPkoDoVVkXqpmudZSwhpATfneyW+xgBjYD7yVG2lY5ZYQIGv5OtvOOzNO+ b8UDMd7+wHKagwwWJvoOvD8UfuWUAVBIl4ZUthppX33pDjZ0Am/yOy+V7tZOC72KvN E1rVlICM8N3EQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4SlvNv4tlSz6tm4; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 00:53:19 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 23:53:19 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dear Eli, Please understand that I'm really trying my best to get this variable, which remains obscure and mysterious despite my technical proficiency, which I consider to be above-average. This is the only variable which I currently have a problem with (as far as the Mail group is concerned). > "Your preferred package for composing and sending email when using > message.el. I read very attentively your previous message. mail-user-agent is the package which is started when, say, I click on a mailto link. In my case, this is the Message package, which as far as I understand is exactly message.el > Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the package you > prefer to use for composing and sending email messages. Then, I understand that while we're using message.el, and we're done writing the email, we need to send. Is it here that message-mail-user-agent intervenes? > The value can be anything accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in > addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native > Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'. This doesn't check out, even just because mail-user-agent accepts five options which are Message, Mail package, MH, Message_withGnusfeatures, but instead here we miss the options for "Message package" and "Message_withGnusfeatures", so message-mail-user-agent doesn't offer all the options that mail-user-agent offers. One explanation for this would be that "Message" doesn't help with the task which message-mail-user-agent wants to accomplish, therefore "Message" is absent from the options and "Message_withGnusfeatures" becomes "Gnus native" in the options. But it can't be the case because then a contradiction would follow: say I set the value of message-mail-user-agent to t, and the value of mail-user-agent is "Message package": this is an absurdity because then "Message" would be tasked with what message-mail-user-agent wants to accomplish, and we excluded this by hypothesis. And also setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to nil: is it the same as setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to t and the value of mail-user-agent to Message_withGnusfeatures? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 02:05:17 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 07:05:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40902 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rB8Rh-0005w7-0S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 02:05:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54522) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rB8Rd-0005vl-Qu for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 02:05:15 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rB8RM-0008KE-AK; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 02:04:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=WBG1TrqroRlpczKcuO9WyLqBmloSZHUZO/6I42EwJ8g=; b=oAUve0pNMlvS QN9YPK3KKdbzcM8rTwfbWjXOMew/gcHHfbhRVX73k2A1aDcLPQBolOcXFTVz6y8F45CMi0VJoR2CL o5XmjEFYJawvkXKGmayJdxbLyFDcPfKGL5Xq2YF9uKUmPq0pOt0KPQc1lgxvG3frHwOal+GpPAo90 eOUKe2L+9ezjVttdK7VzaXJ7H60S/DOmysPu6hTqrqweRj4Idc1St8vNDybFciDo0jMIID/vIfDwJ wCPIZZhKY0E+YeCeiExKKtDxRXvjn3+FRNtRhqVhDO4t0hbaIT99uFpviIfuHvhSYl/DGvX+AWXpX /jtRsLiKTkfCqJQJzLCgyw==; Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:05:08 +0200 Message-Id: <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 23:53:19 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > Dear Eli, > Please understand that I'm really trying my best to get this variable, > which remains obscure and mysterious despite my technical proficiency, > which I consider to be above-average. This is the only variable which I > currently have a problem with (as far as the Mail group is concerned). > > > "Your preferred package for composing and sending email when using > > message.el. > > I read very attentively your previous message. mail-user-agent is the > package which is started when, say, I click on a mailto link. In my > case, this is the Message package, which as far as I understand is > exactly message.el > > > Like `mail-user-agent' (which see), this specifies the package you > > prefer to use for composing and sending email messages. > > Then, I understand that while we're using message.el, and we're done > writing the email, we need to send. Is it here that > message-mail-user-agent intervenes? No, it intervenes also _before_ you write the message. For example, if you reply to an incoming message (type 'r' in Rmail), the mail-user-agent's compose function is called to prepare the headers of the response for you, before you type the body of your response. Then the send function of mail-user-agent is invoked when you type the key to send the response. I added the link to the Info manual so you could read up on Mail User Agents and understand what they are for. > > The value can be anything accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in > > addition it can be nil or t. If the value is nil, use the Gnus native > > Mail User Agent (MUA); if it is t, use the value of `mail-user-agent'. > > This doesn't check out, even just because mail-user-agent accepts five > options which are Message, Mail package, MH, Message_withGnusfeatures, > but instead here we miss the options for "Message package" and > "Message_withGnusfeatures", so message-mail-user-agent doesn't offer all > the options that mail-user-agent offers. "Like" doesn't mean "100% identical", it means "similar". The intent is for you to read the doc string of that other variable, and then continue reading the doc string of this variable, with the information about mail-user-agent in mind. > And also setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to nil: is it the > same as setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to t and the value > of mail-user-agent to Message_withGnusfeatures? I think so, yes. But I don't use message.el, so I wouldn't know for sure. Why won't you try this and report back? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 09:47:45 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 14:47:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41403 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBFfE-0007nY-V6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:47:45 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42177) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBFf9-0007n7-T2 for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:47:43 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8978F240029 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 15:47:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1701960441; bh=+xOYr3wLg5juJxh+aGQN0kH8ayh/BCd02hZ5YwiWY8k=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=ZBzrRV3+4Mz6R3Rppf5IsO9plKZcPgD0pOVai3hOtE99uYXsADya4wrPQkvtHsrox t3MB5JG8WY/O/q/I4Df7uAYLrFXgQVncNLPLIkkSjH3d2imHa52DO1+hEbxVs2w3gv drpNnUj4dPhIM5Gvom2P4361ouSQoKTDw7DDKLTR8ftI4pPl0ZV5Oz3k/MtGyB2+UU R61RvZhgkfkhbcCVA/kTtiQKlVFomNSzeGaB5KFv4++THAiUwGnLE/TUI6FQEjO5bv dmwvE6b5A54H0t9q3p3whNlFhKX2nJGIaLSl9n3xQcmcXxBCva3x8nFLbTB6KYb4IZ Su1qIvxmVdj6w== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4SmHDT0cv0z9rxN; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 15:47:20 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:47:20 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dear Eli, Can you please kindly explain in one sentence where message-mail-user-agent and mail-user-agent intervene during the process of replying to an email message which I'm reading using Rmail? >> And also setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to nil: is it >> the same as setting the value of message-mail-user-agent to t and the >> value of mail-user-agent to Message_withGnusfeatures? > > I think so, yes. But I don't use message.el, so I wouldn't know for > sure. Why won't you try this and report back? I'm happy to try this, but before I do I must understand what these two variables are for. >> > The value can be anything accepted by `mail-user-agent', and in addition it can be nil or t. I still think this sentence doesn't check out, because the value of message-mail-user-agent cannot be "Message package" and "Message_withGnusfeatures", which instead are accepted values for the variable mail-user-agent. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 12:14:19 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 17:14:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43014 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBHx5-0000ve-CV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:14:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44390) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBHx2-0000vO-Hw for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:14:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBHwk-00042W-Pk; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:13:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=ZygjCQJWfYvN00L6caIaH/4CZNuESMGuSFUAMFBI9h0=; b=nRYj9rMmjOar BBD0iSTK//sfhP14vRCsvvqcbMJdz/ioEIUyh8LK1Udm8/xnEt11cPRdatpeF8GP+s2As7LXxTG6Y AAh3WBvvv5MYn9jlTx4uabya+WY8VzLZ32Kjvgobce37nGoDxi9Fw+yFIIgAQdDj0ap4prRK4z4L9 fV0fAX/5crnhrcklOxJcjf4v/aQP6rHvw6zG55G1eRChn3wK7pzCn72uYKQ8C+bzQ8z59wo69Kf0j PSjEKIfIW8BcP+3R+ns0alKOE+4Z12yQ0xlcYj8/2hCRUXg2M8OeqRB2CXZtL61NWovAq7SvpplNr J+1Fq8wR9wXL2qmEnzQrhg==; Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:14:11 +0200 Message-Id: <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 14:47:20 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > Can you please kindly explain in one sentence where > message-mail-user-agent and mail-user-agent intervene during the process > of replying to an email message which I'm reading using Rmail? When you type 'r', Emacs invokes rmail-reply, which calls rmail-start-mail, which calls compose-mail. compose-mail invokes the composition function of mail-user-agent, and when you invoke the command to send the response, Emacs invokes the send-mail function of mail-user-agent. rmail-start-mail (and thus compose-mail) is also called by commands rmail-mail, rmail-continue, rmail-forward, and a couple of others. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 12:27:45 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 17:27:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43033 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIA5-0001Nd-EC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:27:45 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:60679) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIA1-0001NC-R5 for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:27:44 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9492240101 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 18:27:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1701970041; bh=4PytP1p08Gn0FJXZ8hPRUGgiKwp/xqsOD7MT7VJLd+k=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=T7KRUQH19NPRey0P0WpwUKy+j5FCupMxsl5A21LERL9X6QtDnVdTSRTYNrFiaOg6y uJKKia8k1gS3E7zirIDgwjWSvlJ0ICK5wHX6/x2sYXU2Ag46ngL9vc3eTJCgugoSDA ZvczuAzaT87I9EPZsx+ewQ+JBCnFBmGPxlG86LVdTi27oglQ7wzLo/YXw/oSeChCJG XAT32JpUOEB8s9aDF2Z1Ugwi2FBD2jqjGuCZ0QQLn2GTov2L4DkGKRoX6C/MsdgAux /hdXGRzemMGJb8S/5o16fQ+VeswB78GrCJ4wnkQF6pPRLV+1LJxvNp2MshT/dAvL// 19DKxn+EjtnNA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4SmLn51yFWz9rxL; Thu, 7 Dec 2023 18:27:21 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:27:21 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> Can you please kindly explain in one sentence where >> message-mail-user-agent and mail-user-agent intervene during the >> process of replying to an email message which I'm reading using Rmail? > > When you type 'r', Emacs invokes rmail-reply, which calls > rmail-start-mail, which calls compose-mail. compose-mail invokes the > composition function of mail-user-agent, and when you invoke the > command to send the response, Emacs invokes the send-mail function of > mail-user-agent. > > rmail-start-mail (and thus compose-mail) is also called by commands > rmail-mail, rmail-continue, rmail-forward, and a couple of others. Thanks. Can you please explain where the variable message-mail-user-agent intervenes in the process above? Because only mail-user-agent appears in your description. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 12:40:55 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 17:40:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43076 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIMo-0001qp-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:40:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59306) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIMm-0001qb-SN for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:40:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIMU-0007WH-UZ; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:40:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=RMILMLLzhf/IVwmWkqPnoQw05POjKaIPq3UC/a/cqwQ=; b=lWfgKk2it2fN KNgV9JyCOa+t3paPSdAJl7UGlj4MZViT8qBqYl7DQ9GeexRWXpfMN4OJQhMHNCJkBdOwYMKOCMWH0 BtuHaWSB/A7JUDd0SjJ9jTKyNU707HMfGswNC86rpL816rciOYGRpVTUGUDuowBVasOL8sygQc15r FZ7kX3iYFUnmp3MAib0uk0EiSdcoaCu1Ofqr3/ITn9yAUEqvGgkikmRd2ui3GkRfTSIqstKPJmZJ3 Ka7cfnb4/hnf6+IelRlAcBFSN9Ms3zb30aRyDmTvlcO7aFkO9KcC4NreQFuN9QtRw2tdcffBAf+qM 2sA8aBnFRXudUjDfHenDbg==; Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:40:31 +0200 Message-Id: <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:27:21 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > >> Can you please kindly explain in one sentence where > >> message-mail-user-agent and mail-user-agent intervene during the > >> process of replying to an email message which I'm reading using Rmail? > > > > When you type 'r', Emacs invokes rmail-reply, which calls > > rmail-start-mail, which calls compose-mail. compose-mail invokes the > > composition function of mail-user-agent, and when you invoke the > > command to send the response, Emacs invokes the send-mail function of > > mail-user-agent. > > > > rmail-start-mail (and thus compose-mail) is also called by commands > > rmail-mail, rmail-continue, rmail-forward, and a couple of others. > > Thanks. Can you please explain where the variable > message-mail-user-agent intervenes in the process above? Because only > mail-user-agent appears in your description. Please take a look at the code of compose-mail. It is defined in simple.el. You will see the answer there. It might also be educational to look at define-mail-user-agent (in subr.el), which is the function used to define all the mail-user-agent's we have in Emacs. Its doc string describes, among other things, what constitutes a "mail user agent" in Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 07 12:53:28 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Dec 2023 17:53:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43090 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIYy-0002Dz-Cy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:53:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47104) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIYv-0002Dl-Pm for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:53:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBIYd-0000vK-NH; Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:53:07 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=qaUXf2AAE8pGT9hRBEoVWYI60InTZnVhvLPexpo/LP8=; b=UVVmhpg4LS4W HVVM40h8W9VUq4BZ338ZUx6utseegXI5qLU9eLMUupVBknoaa5/73JNZHz9xIQI+rHA7O/X7Fb7Uj Vwjq09blVFYgRjt7btZ8o+b9uCkh1Q6cSNcRQEufyU3ZCv9rQ8BXRKqLRdHkCDUu2PzQW0CrrYQEr a5yxc36rmTqWg0FYvJAOtA2GVQxpCB2IomQS3W+2KOOt4mgn00ipRy+SdsDCG+OzQXD4RKRW7qTPv MFoCJtVGTjpu7jt3LmtNc3uPojkM9XYDuQa4S+YUiaOTe/Y+B0R0+Q9DjXOlpI/nQfgU10km1QiZw QZW3QsErK3f2BhtRoi05CA==; Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:53:21 +0200 Message-Id: <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:40:31 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:40:31 +0200 > From: Eli Zaretskii > > > > rmail-start-mail (and thus compose-mail) is also called by commands > > > rmail-mail, rmail-continue, rmail-forward, and a couple of others. > > > > Thanks. Can you please explain where the variable > > message-mail-user-agent intervenes in the process above? Because only > > mail-user-agent appears in your description. Oh, and message-setup binds mail-user-agent to a value derived from message-mail-user-agent. Maybe this is the missing piece you were looking for. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 08 06:41:57 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2023 11:41:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43997 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBZEz-0003sP-0r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 06:41:57 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:58743) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBZEw-0003rw-BM for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 06:41:54 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FB2E240101 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 12:41:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1702035695; bh=kb3ie3iggXwrVJZueXi8HWgeUlogbqhI9+zASc93fRk=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=FAfAxLG8Kix11m/QaIo0AIy3/m5qP17hIX0lKMbYSNknISiC0AYMJ2KNksYuoyiuN meAZgDvAPdVmgbKx26Qgd5ZCQkzTcyXOQVj+Mwvw1T6+Z85rtR1uc/q2WRtx17MlRl 1ijRooapCENUqQtg2A41DnhpcC+iuSn6rn6HzRB36RXCS2Xd7egdHXp9ZJT+SdcCqe lWWhINPJ/az98udN0+YODI0ofcGHO1XCQApaeFadHEPkKpZy8PAx0vCE+VgMNmdzpH 6r+EFFsFTutVfB5MneHWcya7DcUvkY1qc+MHuyfmzHRxTgZJOFu6hgIEatyT8cTtE/ 3ISpp5LyADscQ== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Smq3f69K8z9rxK; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 12:41:34 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 11:41:34 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dear Eli, > Oh, and message-setup binds mail-user-agent to a value derived from > message-mail-user-agent. Maybe this is the missing piece you were > looking for. This may be the key. Let's see if I understand correctly. I would be immensely grateful if you could check the "decision-making pseudocode" below. CASE A. We're outside of message.el In this case check the variable mail-user-agent to decide how to create the email. mail-user-agent may say to use something different from the Message package, in which case message-mail-user-agent will never intervene unless we use Gnus, and it doesn't matter what it's set up to. CASE B. We're inside of message.el This may happen either because mail-user-agent is set to the Message package, so brings us to use message.el, or because we're inside Gnus which always calls the Message package no matter the value of mail-user-agent. Now that we're in message.el, first we look at message-mail-user-agent and temporarily ignore mail-user-agent: CASE B.1 It's the Message package, so send the email this way. Note that mail-user-agent does not intervene at all here in B.1, except perhaps to choose case B instead of case A. CASE B.2 It's something else from the Message package and is explicitly set: use that whatever it is. Note that also in this case then mail-user-agent doesn't matter, except perhaps to choose case B instead of case A. Case B.3 It says to look at the value of mail-user-agent. Then if it's the message package, this is the same as case B.1 (except that inside B.3 we have used the value of mail-user-agent), otherwise use whatever other package mail-user-agent says to use. Do you think this is correct? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 08 07:32:46 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2023 12:32:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44070 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBa29-0000LM-Hg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 07:32:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49584) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBa27-0000Kv-9w for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 07:32:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBa1l-0002d2-SC; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 07:32:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=JDOLhOgs0z6wj2S444Cc5a9+ahg5ZJw+sJdD23aAY7Q=; b=G5OkXuwWmya4 TIKxInRvYZuB5IPRmizsFH/BZe5/fS3xWoQGM20/PRjYC+2828znBK8BLPAbc3MV+rXoRz1zXDaN/ d/5qznB9/ay5zgvjZeYFLuhbJs4Ka0cOFFitOBiojLI+NgA9ELFWp7f6vE0czNk7GRhE73tRBdB1v u3sCCWr4+WqyhZ1FgNLLPKnHfP5bAwWyaHKp6NYx9WxR42736h8+wok5qZY9m5HwMQYmPR4QzX6yM 8dRmKPQKstt39Rdkzv7lD+Q+UsRx3Sk4LNb4TU2FvXnIy0cqnjSYFRkDznemIXPt93DPmjv77vJfV 7+pROsp4eQJtUu8GPouUng==; Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 14:32:22 +0200 Message-Id: <83ttoszxgp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 11:41:34 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Oh, and message-setup binds mail-user-agent to a value derived from > > message-mail-user-agent. Maybe this is the missing piece you were > > looking for. > > This may be the key. Let's see if I understand correctly. I would be > immensely grateful if you could check the "decision-making pseudocode" > below. > > CASE A. We're outside of message.el > > In this case check the variable mail-user-agent to decide how to create > the email. mail-user-agent may say to use something different from the > Message package, in which case message-mail-user-agent will never > intervene unless we use Gnus, and it doesn't matter what it's set up to. > > CASE B. We're inside of message.el > > This may happen either because mail-user-agent is set to the Message > package, so brings us to use message.el, or because we're inside Gnus > which always calls the Message package no matter the value of > mail-user-agent. > > Now that we're in message.el, first we look at message-mail-user-agent > and temporarily ignore mail-user-agent: > CASE B.1 It's the Message package, so send the email this way. Note that > mail-user-agent does not intervene at all here in B.1, except perhaps to > choose case B instead of case A. > CASE B.2 It's something else from the Message package and is explicitly > set: use that whatever it is. Note that also in this case then > mail-user-agent doesn't matter, except perhaps to choose case B instead > of case A. > Case B.3 It says to look at the value of mail-user-agent. Then if it's > the message package, this is the same as case B.1 (except that inside > B.3 we have used the value of mail-user-agent), otherwise use whatever > other package mail-user-agent says to use. > > Do you think this is correct? Almost. In case B.1 we do involve mail-user-agent: message.el binds its value to what message-mail-user-agent tells it. IOW, the lower-level functionality of composing and sending email always looks at mail-user-agent, so any package that wants to override the value of mail-user-agent must bind it to some other value. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 08 08:12:53 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2023 13:12:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBaey-0001r4-Ln for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:12:52 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:40684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBaXm-0001ab-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:05:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBaXT-0003vb-Hp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:05:07 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBaXS-0003IH-0T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:05:07 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rBaXN-0007VJ-VX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 14:05:01 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: CHENG Gao Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 21:01:17 +0800 Message-ID: <874jgs97c2.fsf@icloud.com> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Emacs/Gnus 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Cancel-Lock: sha1:EP5N/0PA++CedZr8S5SH6Oh8+IM= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 08:12:51 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Grepping shows: ,---- | | (define-mail-user-agent 'gnus-user-agent 'gnus-msg-mail 'message-send-and-exit 'message-kill-buffer 'message-send-hook) | (define-mail-user-agent 'message-user-agent 'message-mail 'message-send-and-exit 'message-kill-buffer 'message-send-hook) | (define-mail-user-agent 'mh-e-user-agent 'mh-user-agent-compose 'mh-send-letter 'mh-fully-kill-draft 'mh-before-send-letter-hook) | (define-mail-user-agent 'sendmail-user-agent #'sendmail-user-agent-compose #'mail-send-and-exit) `---- Seems they are all mail-user-agents defined in current Emacs, that define how to compose mail (using Mail mode in sendmail.el or Message mode in message.el) and how to send mail (using sendmail in sendmail.el or smtp in smtpmail.el). My understanding is For composing mail, gnus-user-agent is like message-user-agent plus, with some extra headers and rendering Other than sending mail, sendmail package is also for composing mail (Mail mode), as used by RMAIL IIUC. Not sure about mh-e-user-agent. Seems it uses its own composing mode other than Mail and Message modes. And uses sendmail package for sending mail. Among these four mail-user-agents defined, only gnus-user-agent is used also as variable (to define what to put in User-Agent header of mail or news message). All others are only used for property list of named symbols. And only COMPOSEFUNC & SENDFUNC of sendmail-user-agent are used in current Emacs codes (for bug reporting). I'd say it is in fact fairly complicated and to some extend misleading (esp. sendmail-user-agent serving composition besides delivery). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 08 09:37:51 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2023 14:37:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44274 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBbzD-0005PN-Co for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:37:51 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:55779) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBbzB-0005Ow-Pb for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:37:50 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF384240104 for <67638@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 15:37:30 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1702046250; bh=TnBtDv8l/yYVyNeUITJVKS+AOmSAXE3W69kGgcSbfdk=; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject: Message-ID:From; b=jimEqew1QOKJZDYblEyN/wIXbTh/55aMQvHRtqTDpGnw4g7uJQ7rdNyzzmaohK9zE cgyDqLmYcbYjQnd4EHe5gLT8vD+HCjpsfl7LhesfrZi/2PTDp1/AqTd4neu7Cue+kt x8Lp9rDAmWTI9b9wfXZSsFUon8OD8uldrbCiOIvOjWSTZQrHxWu1GcvysLz7HlYBf5 civyYE1Br0gjkulrrbStgnKgW5kLKTpabCmks3DWw76zNWcequmOTFhhQnbE3Gtsd+ Nd5OKktc6kNq3ezMw0dUxShtoFxQxao9DedpRli/Dz7m7BfBT6u56qKkFKB/82/sIp hIJTNEZE7KrTw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Smtyf3d0jz9rxM; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 15:37:30 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 14:37:30 +0000 From: rameiko87@posteo.net To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 In-Reply-To: <83ttoszxgp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> <83ttoszxgp.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> This may be the key. Let's see if I understand correctly. I would be >> immensely grateful if you could check the "decision-making pseudocode" >> below. >> >> CASE A. We're outside of message.el >> >> In this case check the variable mail-user-agent to decide how to >> create >> the email. mail-user-agent may say to use something different from the >> Message package, in which case message-mail-user-agent will never >> intervene unless we use Gnus, and it doesn't matter what it's set up >> to. >> >> CASE B. We're inside of message.el >> >> This may happen either because mail-user-agent is set to the Message >> package, so brings us to use message.el, or because we're inside Gnus >> which always calls the Message package no matter the value of >> mail-user-agent. >> >> Now that we're in message.el, first we look at message-mail-user-agent >> and temporarily ignore mail-user-agent: >> CASE B.1 It's the Message package, so send the email this way. Note >> that >> mail-user-agent does not intervene at all here in B.1, except perhaps >> to >> choose case B instead of case A. >> CASE B.2 It's something else from the Message package and is >> explicitly >> set: use that whatever it is. Note that also in this case then >> mail-user-agent doesn't matter, except perhaps to choose case B >> instead >> of case A. >> Case B.3 It says to look at the value of mail-user-agent. Then if it's >> the message package, this is the same as case B.1 (except that inside >> B.3 we have used the value of mail-user-agent), otherwise use whatever >> other package mail-user-agent says to use. >> >> Do you think this is correct? > > Almost. In case B.1 we do involve mail-user-agent: message.el binds > its value to what message-mail-user-agent tells it. IOW, the > lower-level functionality of composing and sending email always looks > at mail-user-agent, so any package that wants to override the value of > mail-user-agent must bind it to some other value. Wait up I disagree: case B.1 means that the value of message-mail-user-agent is nil, therefore in message-setup the expression: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/gnus/message.el?id=841614c72272146fff1b9afa05d52150da6d6e66#n6814 is true, therefore we call: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/gnus/message.el?id=841614c72272146fff1b9afa05d52150da6d6e66#n6815 and there's no mail-user-agent involved and message.el doesn't touch the value of mail-user-agent in case B.1. The value of mail-user-agent is changed only in https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/gnus/message.el?id=841614c72272146fff1b9afa05d52150da6d6e66#n6825 which lies in the part of the "if" that is not run. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 08 09:42:21 2023 Received: (at 67638) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2023 14:42:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44296 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBc3Z-0005d8-25 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:42:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rBc3W-0005cr-Qv for 67638@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:42:19 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rBc3E-0000GV-FF; Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:42:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=997YRr5JUVuAol2UMSp3AAw7RZwLGXoWrDLKi3ZTp1Q=; b=qAxcdQFChvi/ t5grVuCyDMtF2h5APZjrg4nHcndXlP2/0Z9iem+QwA8O9epIa2c9fZi+B8mfYt2rBbsRmVJdV9m+z duktL24bO/NDVazyEYFBw7+qc9z71Vi/vV38Pa5GhEp72j3smyEvd0ZCCffSvqZ7x07UYQI/qcVyv +toavEK+jmRB7cZSKduxA4YDYxhpmj+VdFasxuDxb2sK6IQjj8OZ5N3BM2g/LTKvTq/ofcyA9sC6T cvW6gNfjkSlu18BkUBZKxMqOUrxsqVPIsN3LguVLHNozVS7XILGxI6dQsWX01N34xaV+G8oOGorOT 1z3Q4YE7kEPDOpqHDJE18g==; Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 16:42:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83msukzrgb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rameiko87@posteo.net In-Reply-To: (rameiko87@posteo.net) Subject: Re: bug#67638: Description of the variable message-mail-user-agent in Emacs 29.1 References: <83zfyo4t5m.fsf@gnu.org> <8ae19a09753eb5bc345c78b8994c768a@posteo.net> <83wmts4lnu.fsf@gnu.org> <83lea6332z.fsf@gnu.org> <0084d3bb25b800e538c4125389313982@posteo.net> <8334we2avw.fsf@gnu.org> <11723e418065dbe93e1a1b228964c4b3@posteo.net> <83zfyl29o0.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmtp292m.fsf@gnu.org> <2b48497eae43c1f1705a556536d2ed7a@posteo.net> <83ttoszxgp.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67638 Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 14:37:30 +0000 > From: rameiko87@posteo.net > Cc: 67638@debbugs.gnu.org > > >> Do you think this is correct? > > > > Almost. In case B.1 we do involve mail-user-agent: message.el binds > > its value to what message-mail-user-agent tells it. IOW, the > > lower-level functionality of composing and sending email always looks > > at mail-user-agent, so any package that wants to override the value of > > mail-user-agent must bind it to some other value. > > Wait up I disagree Noted. From unknown Fri Aug 15 16:19:47 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2024 12:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator