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With MS Windows, which uses ls-lisp, the value of this variable is `unspecified'. I think it always has this value. Maybe this is necessary/correct (?). But the doc string says this: The special value of 'unspecified' means to check whether "ls" supports the "--dired" option, and save the result in this variable. This is performed the first time 'dired-insert-directory' is invoked. That's not as clear as it should be. It gives the impression that the result of saving the result of that check of the value will be nil or some non-nil value other than `unspecified'. It would be better to at least say that the result of the check can be that it hasn't been determined whether "ls" supports the "--dired" option, and thus that the variable value will remain `unspecified' after the check. Or if it's the case that the check does, for MS Windows (or more generally for ls-lisp use), determine that "ls" doesn't support "--dired", then the value should be changed from `unspecified' to some other non-nil value, such as `t'. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something? If so, please make the doc string clearer to avoid such misunderstanding. Thx. In GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2023-08-02 built on AVALON Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19045.3570) Configured using: 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=3Daot --without-compress-install --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=3D-O2' Configured features: ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 10 17:20:59 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2023 22:20:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50985 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1Zs3-0001SP-1Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:20:59 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:37922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1Zrz-0001S1-Gt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:20:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ZrF-0001NX-Kx for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:20:09 -0500 Received: from out-188.mta1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:203:375::bc]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ZrD-0003pV-QQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:20:09 -0500 References: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeremybryant.net; s=key1; t=1699654800; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=t0ID+kwxWWDVrINwIBjYiJ3PTq9XtCyF5UDOKWFi5r4=; b=AOR3gHbPh9YGj/FeRgmvXqkQfLM3SVHr8GM6pcZiEf5Tj8qFB51Bik/Xyn6+nEYNT0VDxg buPtiSh23nqHoIOd8UzTl8i3ywwiwa7BuACZf1cYI5fXwzZmXl5O0XyQd39H5BmYXOJxHg obnbK8SaWF+nYjvHl77R3mXDQMYDY/SsKozBGo8C1x5YgZLYwhccq4Xbv4I5pZOrxVbHVl mBxdmLXyc3kWt6LxzsWxAJuvX/iAx5BQdWaZBR2RtSfzituGkfOD/sHO0Xag0h3xrX+/hl loVcO+fswMpi4oxOW4H5SGXWgHY89EpvhpxYc+X4stMhsYcmN7ExaUDmvW9qWg== X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: Jeremy Bryant To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 21:38:19 +0000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87a5rldzec.fsf@jeremybryant.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:41d0:203:375::bc; envelope-from=jb@jeremybryant.net; helo=out-188.mta1.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, 67053@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) Here are some thoughts to help explore a modification of the docstring. I observe the rest of the docstring mentions MS Windows explicitly, but maybe incomplete for your suggestion. " ...support this option. Alternatively, you might want to use Emacs's own emulation of \"ls\", by using: (setq ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program nil) (require \\='ls-lisp) This is used by default on MS Windows, which does not have an \"ls\" program. Note that `ls-lisp' does not support as many options as GNU ls, though. For more details, see Info node `(emacs)ls in Lisp'." " (On my machine (GNU/Linux), this variable starts at the defcustom default of 'unspecified until the first call of M-x dired, whereupon it becomes t ) Drew Adams writes: > emacs -Q. > > With MS Windows, which uses ls-lisp, the value of this variable is > `unspecified'. I think it always has this value. Maybe this is > necessary/correct (?). > > But the doc string says this: > > The special value of 'unspecified' means to check whether "ls" > supports the "--dired" option, and save the result in this > variable. This is performed the first time 'dired-insert-directory' > is invoked. > > That's not as clear as it should be. It gives the impression that the > result of saving the result of that check of the value will be nil or > some non-nil value other than `unspecified'. > Do you think there should be a specific value such as maybe 'dired-flag-unsupported > It would be better to at least say that the result of the check can be > that it hasn't been determined whether "ls" supports the "--dired" > option, and thus that the variable value will remain `unspecified' > after the check. Would you suggest that the right thing would be for the value to move from 'unspecified to something like 'check-inconclusive? This is a change in the defun not just the docstring > > Or if it's the case that the check does, for MS Windows (or more > generally for ls-lisp use), determine that "ls" doesn't support > "--dired", then the value should be changed from `unspecified' to some > other non-nil value, such as `t'. > In the current docstring, t is describes as confirming that ls DOES support --dired > Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something? If so, please make the doc > string clearer to avoid such misunderstanding. Thx. I can propose a patch but I have an incomplete understanding of the problem above. > > In GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 2, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2023-08-02 built on > AVALON > Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 > System Description: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (v10.0.2009.19045.3570) > > Configured using: > 'configure --with-modules --without-dbus --with-native-compilation=aot > --without-compress-install --with-tree-sitter CFLAGS=-O2' > > Configured features: > ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP > NOTIFY W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF > TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XPM ZLIB > > (NATIVE_COMP present but libgccjit not available) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 10 18:41:46 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Nov 2023 23:41:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51037 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1b8E-0003ah-2E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:40:45 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Jeremy Bryant Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' Thread-Index: AdoUFcw1fjQHwBBzQDaFxUcSDtefYAACGxGAAAQP9VA= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:40:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87a5rldzec.fsf@jeremybryant.net> In-Reply-To: <87a5rldzec.fsf@jeremybryant.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|BLAPR10MB5058:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4ee1bab5-fc28-4501-6a3c-08dbe24675db x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" , "67053@debbugs.gnu.org" <67053@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > Here are some thoughts to help explore a modification of the docstring. >=20 > I observe the rest of the docstring mentions MS Windows explicitly, but > maybe incomplete for your suggestion. Yes, it mentions MS Windows. But that text is unrelated to this bug, which is about the value that results from checking for support of "--dired". It's not clear from the doc that that result can be `unspecified'. The wording suggests that the "check" clears up `unspecified', replacing it, presumably, with either nil or some non-nil value other than `unspecified'. The special value of `unspecified' apparently does _not_ just mean that such a check is needed and will be done. The value means that support isn't known, whether or not the check has been done. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 10 23:49:23 2023 Received: (at 67053) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2023 04:49:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1fvv-0003Ol-3Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:49:23 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:60479) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1fvn-0003NT-Np for 67053@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:49:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1699678104; x=1700282904; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=grpnDImq+dCYeW2No9upaApj+Yu26O36YZ7SNn2XCQ8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Date; b=s8WM/tItpzqw122mHqAlCDrgH6JNVH4UDmioPJseZrg7x7C7XYWXs7IyLG9c5rU4 mghdDuHj0iBKUTGAQXN7IXH512e70nX553bCPn+xO/TWR32BKv0D0vbnVXDVm9Uq5 wtjKC5Zm3W4YCz5O/zsJGyVy+5zjRYfz0b+82BEYENe1PMtrX0R8NIzgV2LCWyyIh SnAAlmAZY8ttj0kIGZPz7YvmCeV65TFQ1j2NVJfwqG+RIefJlnQHAQuVrWYIUFTb6 kBiHjg19vpLJ+Z+qKMkKlOotLOmYRxFv+L0rJKO7bLfyPLVF4MtP+z8Nv/JnqkVxP obTanzMsumACXqeaNQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.159]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MovjQ-1rkPfK1C6Y-00qZhu; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 05:48:24 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 10 Nov 2023 20:41:01 +0000") References: Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 05:48:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87sf5c7v4s.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:RK0eiTxRVLNaWDFIimu2p5yWNB+yOROzkWVrJZ0oLwx6p59WJWd QmFC5lJIJdVtHv5rbjp9ONAtvDbGMdeHZnmYM3PtZ52tAworJ6krMLryntoejaXkVqt7mp1 o50pYV47sV3vJWUz8JHqMSe9FXJCdB8UH0Wb8vDrbf+RYunbRgF6RACNu/068nZP4oY9jKh RPxnCvnCdZQ+5Z0NQiDsg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:9JpNG5O4dXk=;B7ZodJlCGVZlUC6zy09ghKyNymF sQIdaHQNBNx8lOkvBYSAPuzFIm9S3pfl/a8Z1FiTPr94UsoLJn3YnDB5AWEYVyRr9lOQ11lFE TzY+1Nf94hq26JDUA237P8XEhoSLo0umUq9DdDhY3zCEhrVdtJldosinCS89Cc/0QMq4FxDOe xbWEysrcaa212vxh4N4aHA+n3BFn66YK3eZBuNKwXpFy6wJb66Drl2RaMBXH524rJ3EZYXtDd fNxhCSPIpfl7H/TB3R0/7WDG2WDurNmsNGc6oe2EBkeP0d8PQ0EoStyys2gWa7PugUHVRafsn JRTs6sX3r2FStrMcHtjgMq7OmI7IxLsdgQmeOXZqmjFjMoFUamn5hRa4a+F+lolgjSNmLVugy 8RSqRP8xdxgqfFa7SZ8SVtEL3geCHQQSp7u75/V4YFUckHgzldREKYKciBqPhuTEbqQOCl8yU UdPOsxX91LOVWk967LqJ8LUgy3K3VBvH0fCwiYNW144vtfLkShpHpvemfdKvASSMpEijSYfLU ++Y1m9lFLKPnpSq57V4f6xwmScL2mlk64uF2GCvX7E3hWN8EuDKrCqyuQbYGF6K5iAGu7C4Gv RqxuCn5j+1VVVIaZEsn9M1dRkDvJirb+3r0D7qkss8NC9LzVVxecQQEulcMfppSOzkN+8OrPw 5CwwCP/b/L5AVehQHQvuCoJ9Wyx3IspTWqX15uQZ/oAkPltuBqt3ISv99nGcxciBPWfEFRq93 0bGdNQDqrZ+7XU6AB0Su8q11kQDocJOIxkXjZtdjvkaPNnpxlhFQhcq0DQ3lEXlasN8nmd7ng svt33val0fF2DRE6IsS7QSRIuLpM5ytb1VT0XdhGfUPUMFiz2veMthSlAjFPna+XWMosd5+P9 E+cwadVUxrIQIBToAeA928ZrKQ7u8jq5byMd+qRBnzLKUt/ulkCFQcpBuZr6P6OdjD4T+ELXT 50hu4Xr8Toi7fKlMt8Htn6+NZYA= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67053 Cc: 67053@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something? If so, please make the doc > string clearer to avoid such misunderstanding. AFAIU in your case this check is never performed (because `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' defaults to nil in your case). The doc is not really wrong because "This is performed the first time `dired-insert-directory' is invoked." is just never for you. Michael. 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If so, please make the doc > > string clearer to avoid such misunderstanding. >=20 > AFAIU in your case this check is never performed (because > `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' defaults to nil in your case). Yes. > The doc is not really wrong because "This is performed the first time > `dired-insert-directory' is invoked." is just never for you. 1. I don't see that the check never being performed makes that doc, as written, any clearer, or that understanding that doc depends on the check being performed or on function `dired-insert-directory' being invoked. Understanding the actual behavior on MS Windows does depend on the check (not) being performed, but that's the code, not the doc. 2. (a) Yes, `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' is nil in my case, but (b) `dired-insert-directory' _is_ invoked. Debugger entered--entering a function: * dired-insert-directory("z:/foo/bar/toto/bbbbb/" "-al" nil nil t) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ dired-readin-insert() #f(compiled-function () #)() combine-change-calls-1(1 1 #f(compiled-function ...)) dired-readin() dired-internal-noselect("z:/foo/bar/toto/bbbbb/" nil) dired-noselect("~/toto/bbbbb" nil) #f(compiled-function (dirname &optional switches) ... ls-lisp--dired(#f(compiled-function ... apply(ls-lisp--dired #f(compiled-function ... dired("~/toto/bbbbb" nil) funcall-interactively(dired "~/toto/bbbbb" nil) command-execute(dired) The _check of `dired-use-ls-dired'_ is never done by `dired-insert-directory', because this test is nil: (not (and (featurep 'ls-lisp) (null ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program))) This doesn't clarify that doc, IMO. It does, however, mean that the part you quoted is incorrect - the doc _is_ really wrong. When `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' is nil, not only does the check not occur the first time `dired-insert-directory' is invoked, but it's _never_ performed. In short, `dired-use-ls-dired' isn't used if option `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' is nil; it's irrelevant in that case. The doc should say that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 11 01:44:01 2023 Received: (at 67053) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2023 06:44:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51374 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1hiq-0006Wo-TR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 01:44:01 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:46435) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1hik-0006WW-AA for 67053@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 01:43:59 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1699684983; x=1700289783; i=michael_heerdegen@web.de; bh=tveVHq0ic8CWGebc7eJk63nGZhEp+sbu+AB+0tKgbTU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Date; b=HRVmnrIhCG25+F/K0AOtPyZo02wVl5gILXL92sS7Vk9YqDCj7S/+pt2lyLFpjbEV xH2TK2BcylfFk/bSkkBXxlp8IRVk8GtHRqFifl0XJnbDcTrLro1hhBpe4eYvdo8tC ZY/prr866LmHHo2rH8nupRjeniwqxBd/RJB0aWZcKyJTEHogh7IWmfZCVD3JFC/dx ofrFfI3uoIwne33LO6ukotYtNKm0vioJClsCHYQVuoSEB8E5Orex2hKfMkSK/Gbga iH2+QYeej1DlJzHWU+8tuKEjFu7IefYWX1j1SKS+mKIUp1sODyUKfBDYQQt7YVTir X4RwydLhBbufL2/mwA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Received: from drachen.dragon ([84.59.210.159]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MmQcl-1rjWy61pej-00i2eY; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:43:03 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 11 Nov 2023 05:53:51 +0000") References: <87sf5c7v4s.fsf@web.de> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:43:14 +0100 Message-ID: <87leb4yem5.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7Asu9QoZAgYD+z6OAjtqotZWwAXI0C3ZtZxoaE1iKrIaHENOQws lFtFCgwqFwN3Vhuz9QDRGxDhZH5VbbrkzP/1pRySccTFlRPAPHOcGH3bcInH6xGr7oo54Jr 7cPcgEqJhxb3yYtvazV9E2OUXWSlp8UQX9ffYSZj/hFAiF1VzSSuMu0wbtNODny8xH+w2U9 KhdFAP7hhRJJ4IixC0nDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:W72hvNf4Nm8=;vh/W2QWcoB0ODiXvOLavXWjjOy8 wSB15kHpKQFfZnV79+t5mnL+7obCEYCeHS0zhZwDZVLsCiXpSk6S9gCF1mh1FKlC/LbcRMLCq Udr0S3etqpb3ndD0KFmZbmzR58sQ2uQGeH5KH93zGa6qvTC3kUU3y6W6xie3/NXtvnKBH3E2I gKuB+l0blB5Y4lyV/n1bcVA8Q7tHOMjMY7TdyqunGFdoz6h1tlF1h4PTBi9sMaMpevCzK4d6g SkOtT/pY+xVlwykC2DzJObORvPShl+cK09n1V8yqRWTDBQCLvT7M6CEhHCJO0ipb+NaaSuE2B F8uYSkxWZTZrBM9jDo+UtWjBSdmjnFdb9Tva9Y6yJ8Ymg9fbk0Uc84xH3Tqxil5TDAAMaHUVj fiAgq+MSisAQV7le8X3fp/uLLOhy8sv2NLi26yTZa3ZjjqLy/+apK5EjxZCRZkOMDYrA7SHFf Unc4QMKNnw+8CoN8vnFrSv3lbRcSjUammRikBiiJT2ta3UcWwTInWHOc6xluOZlcmS7FFH45u bG2LS2SiTgxsvGWeG/XH0xFyr1xcGNfSfB6XaWV1gbHE/S9tEuNlcwSNFKNKS8RyLV9TGTGHP CM0X2OL80Dn9r7YruuUcHj/O0HSbzStJNIcojnQBeQi64oqeVs/ZAhDVs9TAsIN/P87rgGmba jVQwOot9YVVvxEsvTYghQOtomDz2ANcTLgQRMpeS37hbqcZi4U8zPqZZyd20uRgvPtsdHAtF7 /cG8/08wEOJHz0+C8JlHeABZ2kHVTkrqIzjOprfQ/ReAc1/BT+ZQmBPA6+e0JbVZkXUWByQAB OCfbXPazBBIqGQPPHzjDHsXSBNZVQkZjo7LWfFiAdGT72dZlqJPFCCxdXqE87hr4FRESSICnn vgZSlVX/xDjl2EF2eXHGiYW9kUVKPKav86d67YRh366QCSz2iKZ1GR0jjfz1VGCxS7jAZ9y6F OZVdKrHjUw0GlpOpoP1Z7kEVwuA= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67053 Cc: "67053@debbugs.gnu.org" <67053@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > In short, `dired-use-ls-dired' isn't used if option > `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' is nil; it's > irrelevant in that case. The doc should say that. If that is what you suggest - yes, I think this would be reasonable. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 11 01:50:14 2023 Received: (at 67053) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2023 06:50:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51379 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1hos-0006nk-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 01:50:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51964) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1hon-0006nN-BJ for 67053@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 01:50:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ho2-0003wi-Ji; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 01:49:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=5Wp/tDWbDY3Jofe71GR1ygpgq9oUcJRRjNp9QdMIHIU=; b=XEmU8RzXTro/ 1h7PW7FK/T2cM5Izx0h+IRkHsKQuvL9t3KGArON7hiDtoQdvN3+DgR5DnxsNnV4JTQZqk7obH7q5W Tqz+ZBn0JqA+yVR52ShaD7tQ8QpQ7IfqdbinEJp+Q2DoZJc/Tof5Y4ScVrC7hao69AnN7yb3eLby3 yayP0hO7GuTSbAmOPHS8ktaIUcpjg84NGL+he8/2o1K/5tj+adHmQvjx/xyjv96MJ+xBR3iBLO3zD ohGCVg22X6rD2epUE35dZrXTDMwDzPRGyl7ZYbtjsBJqXCAsHYq9euacxQEuSD1unnqOlk+y/zhjQ 1aNYiu+tJdjgd25m8HrHCg==; Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 08:49:18 +0200 Message-Id: <83a5rkyec1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 10 Nov 2023 20:41:01 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67053 Cc: 67053@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 20:41:01 +0000 > > emacs -Q. > > With MS Windows, which uses ls-lisp, the value of this variable is > `unspecified'. I think it always has this value. Maybe this is > necessary/correct (?). > > But the doc string says this: > > The special value of 'unspecified' means to check whether "ls" > supports the "--dired" option, and save the result in this > variable. This is performed the first time 'dired-insert-directory' > is invoked. > > That's not as clear as it should be. It gives the impression that the > result of saving the result of that check of the value will be nil or > some non-nil value other than `unspecified'. Which is exactly what happens, when Dired uses 'ls'. > It would be better to at least say that the result of the check can be > that it hasn't been determined whether "ls" supports the "--dired" > option, and thus that the variable value will remain `unspecified' > after the check. No, it will be either nil or non-nil, depending on the results of the test. Which is exactly what the doc string says. > Or if it's the case that the check does, for MS Windows (or more > generally for ls-lisp use), determine that "ls" doesn't support > "--dired", then the value should be changed from `unspecified' to some > other non-nil value, such as `t'. No, it changes to nil if 'ls' that is used by Dired doesn't support '--dired'. As expected. > Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something? If so, please make the doc > string clearer to avoid such misunderstanding. Thx. I don't see what is unclear in the doc string. I suggest that you try it: emacs -Q M-x set-variable RET ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program RET t RET C-h v dired-use-ls-dired RET C-x d SOME-DIRECTORY RET C-h v dired-use-ls-dired RET Depending on what version of 'ls' you have installed, the 2nd "C-h v" will show either t or nil as the value of the variable. So I don't see anything that we need to fix in this doc string. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 11 02:15:26 2023 Received: (at 67053) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2023 07:15:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1iDG-0007Wb-Gj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 02:15:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56002) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1iDE-0007WN-Sk for 67053@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 02:15:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1iCV-0006nW-2M; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 02:14:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=JT611b75NtAOx3oaeChxWtMzGf1lTpy19GmwZxXwGCE=; b=OjGmhmHFM66h knF1L5fzFJfY4Pj4ayok5V4htTxjlRdLMAfudz3EC+UvAj2+4fK2t3MX60WI1M92FahvEh9Mnn41I CvmyTy5FJUUEX2D4N9XJG0DThTxV5O3a2jQi/nCw0eqQ5JHre7BxuQ5Znz0S8l+ox5MgaiC6H6zVi /26E+lK9SbEZm3ndW4v+O8yYfJnqHQL4Lx2xUHKZFeszWJvIxalQYlUCdtpmP8PKZNmc4835nnmT1 GJO5oSTOT4Awfnrigtx/o7imyH99hEbt4fpK1ijDpG8g2oxyBuKh6K0tkznGskcp57JUdamxWv2uZ pVsnOX1LsBYyNImlOAUUwg==; Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 09:14:32 +0200 Message-Id: <8334xcyd5z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:40:45 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' References: <87a5rldzec.fsf@jeremybryant.net> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67053 Cc: jb@jeremybryant.net, 67053@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 67053@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Drew Adams > Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 23:40:45 +0000 > > The special value of `unspecified' apparently does _not_ > just mean that such a check is needed and will be done. > The value means that support isn't known, whether or > not the check has been done. No, it means the check has not been done yet, and will be done when needed. After the check the value will never be 'unspecified'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 11 03:05:49 2023 Received: (at 67053-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2023 08:05:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51430 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1j01-0000Tb-6U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 03:05:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36272) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r1izw-0000TE-5n for 67053-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 03:05:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1izC-0004GW-88; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 03:04:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=oNHL7DX2uuXFaFi/3VMs5xIa7luchhSera20+znwwh8=; b=W8a587Jy3Xyz LAFE8H4ainji03YowRoJqTtkWEMjOOZ6z1rYIuvtQDE2lqwzCVZ77msY5x01gUNCpyjQBym2SAPZx kxIBTg3HZxA80os8aMtiJSEJ+LZOGLZR0c9+vG7BgwMiqMdkopTk4jMYec4J1kGQXYKI6EUv06eHX Kij+srzFOq39+3b+6RiH2Iq9Z1GsL626EN8oA5ApyH1NBUgN6ZTIjf7ZPGeO7mU9r9ifNPjYPvAjS m9sinOCU060y1/P9qJDJry5AzzJ6XltcQqtIlOGLZvyvU1Y/D2m4jEpELXXyrbHFW/GzoK8q8EQVW CszcWkPNSfvIQbaZwTtkrg==; Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:04:54 +0200 Message-Id: <83ttpsww9l.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87leb4yem5.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:43:14 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#67053: 29.1; Doc string of variable `dired-use-ls-dired' References: <87sf5c7v4s.fsf@web.de> <87leb4yem5.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67053-done Cc: 67053-done@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: "67053@debbugs.gnu.org" <67053@debbugs.gnu.org> > From: Michael Heerdegen > Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 07:43:14 +0100 > > Drew Adams writes: > > > In short, `dired-use-ls-dired' isn't used if option > > `ls-lisp-use-insert-directory-program' is nil; it's > > irrelevant in that case. The doc should say that. > > If that is what you suggest - yes, I think this would be reasonable. If that's the only problem with the doc string, then I already added a note to that affect (although I wonder why a user who doesn't use 'ls' would be bothered by this factoid). FTR, it was very hard to understand from the original report that this is the source of the confusion. Why would someone expect Emacs to check what 'ls' does if 'ls' is not used? Anyway, I'm now closing this bug, as I don't think we have anything else to do here. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:46:42 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2023 12:24:07 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator