From unknown Fri Sep 12 09:19:12 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#67003 <67003@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#67003 <67003@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as well, for chars Reply-To: bug#67003 <67003@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 16:19:12 +0000 retitle 67003 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names= as well, for chars reassign 67003 emacs submitter 67003 Drew Adams severity 67003 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 08 16:18:53 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Nov 2023 21:18:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46411 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r0pwr-0005Yq-0A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2023 16:18:53 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:55078) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r0pwn-0005Yb-PA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) In the list of character representations shown, please: 1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal. 2. But show also the octal digits. 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names. E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name (VT). (And still mention that it's C-k.) IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly encountered or "official" names= for such chars. https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+000B In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.19045 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 09 04:22:30 2023 Received: (at 67003) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2023 09:22:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46791 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r11F8-0001wy-2f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:22:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r11F3-0001wi-1X for 67003@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:22:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r11EJ-0002q1-BC; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 04:21:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=LuQl40PU4IIAOESpq7wOnGjFcwhExnaqjeZX0lh9gjI=; b=fRa5Dj6hXJ28 4EKrwilTqkhIf0LyHAIRJv+8jynAFimHQZYVZsKlkooEejX6hO8URTDerSDUXjw1h+clDrNQnnqeD YqtmcmtcnhxeH75+RMKgMUdeGFgsngaBDP+0Iijll/rydmtbrsBmjeE3fLyk/EyT+aJb29a0qKk/A Jjp2bPq+S8oBewV4I38GcCfc8Wq9AoGrKL7N3+8vYOZTaIdDnRzuz7IGD23DIxOATcqh3UDCR7oGP RP8fVjlpjN2e8LlEGMnuGKKwLyZViN+OOduoUoJHw93y/D8Wo3WpXMValwpniPmZ0uLAPdDnsmSUG ikdQOP0T3gFLrxrWVwQFhA==; Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:21:32 +0200 Message-Id: <83wmurz3hf.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 8 Nov 2023 21:17:56 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#67003: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as well, for chars References: X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67003 Cc: 67003@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 21:17:56 +0000 > > In the list of character representations shown, please: > > 1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal. The very first sentence there says: Since characters are really integers, the printed representation of a character is a decimal number. And all the rest of the subsection shows those printed representations. > 2. But show also the octal digits. Show where and how? And why? > 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names. > E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name > (VT). (And still mention that it's C-k.) The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax", includes this information. > IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly encountered or "official" names for such chars. I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section, not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff. 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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 79a27305-44f5-4338-3602-08dbe13c3a7c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Nov 2023 15:54:59.8210 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dqv//xfIMDNCTS2NYYhCoHR4kRsAUHDyowrs4XPH8X0mFvgE/jI/AHBAb6ApekBgg50HPZHAZD93j3TuV03YAA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4409 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.987,Hydra:6.0.619,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-11-09_13,2023-11-09_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2311060000 definitions=main-2311090120 X-Proofpoint-GUID: v336rpY5X1gR5PBXUiMTNsOvwGnmDkI_ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: v336rpY5X1gR5PBXUiMTNsOvwGnmDkI_ X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67003 Cc: "67003@debbugs.gnu.org" <67003@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > In the list of character representations shown, please: > > > > 1. State that the digits shown (so far) are decimal. >=20 > The very first sentence there says: >=20 > Since characters are really integers, the printed > representation of a character is a decimal number. >=20 > And all the rest of the subsection shows those printed representations. Maybe - if one interprets the rightwards double arrow as showing the "printed representation" and not just a result of evaluation. But OK. > > 2. But show also the octal digits. > Show where and how? And why? Where we show the ?\ char representation, its decimal equivalent (=1B$B"M=1B(B), char name/description (in a comment), and key description (in the comment). IOW, where we specify these chars that have their own, dedicated escape sequences. Why? Because in `General Escape Syntax' we say that you can use octal char codes. Why not show the octal values for these chars here? Why not show the hex values also, as that's what `insert-char' accepts? Octal (by default) for `C-q', hex for `C-x 8 RET'. To insert a char that has its own escape syntax you pretty much need to know its Unicode name or octal or hex code. Neither `C-q' nor `C-x 8 RET' lets you give it `?\v' etc. as input. `Basic Char Syntax' could also usefully say something about where you can use escape sequences - and that's _not_ to interactively insert such a char. This isn't clear at all from this topic, which intends to tell you about basic char syntax. The topic tells you about a basic syntax for _reading_ chars in buffer text, but not for inserting them. > > 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names. > > E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name > > (VT). (And still mention that it's C-k.) >=20 > The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax", > includes this information. Not for these specific chars that have dedicated escape syntaxes, it doesn't. They're specified only in `Basic Char Syntax'. > > IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly > > encountered or "official" names for such chars. >=20 > I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section, > not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the > basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff. I don't see that it would be bad to let users know, here, that what we call "vertical tab" here is also called "line tabulation". Try inserting that char using `insert-char' without knowing its Unicode/ISO name or its hex value - good luck. This is the place where we specify the chars that have their own escape sequences. I think it would help to describe them more fully here - at least give their names, and maybe the octal and hex codes. Such info is not "advanced stuff". It's better info about these chars. This node goes into other stuff that really is "more advanced stuff" - the complex last paragraph, for instance. Wrt the chars that have their own, dedicated escape syntax, IF this is the place to specify them THEN it should also be the place to specify them better. IMHO. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 09 11:31:56 2023 Received: (at 67003-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2023 16:31:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r17wh-0004n5-N8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:31:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42960) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r17wc-0004mp-NE for 67003-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:31:54 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r17vt-0007ES-3s; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 11:31:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=nn3OAZfvGQSgqPn+PCKZsh0g3gaXaEZSjEOath7OMbw=; b=YlymEUIbo0A+D5phhkHP GDzMipDhrAyKWU+32t1o6RsIXE6wRtd3y+/cWnKbfVO8yQ0rICChBQQjj9TuA0Qgq1OnK3j96F3QI nGGf7+K0jXFjCVr+b7LKgfnI1NeVYd91zmd+0cqDyJ/IFyVOoAXu6b0ZwLR1H9hNLr0UQD79GNsDV OXSWAmFOaDKKnjhnbhYx/lxEMbjKB5DEOKUsyIGgrxDwoXgN0WBqVpmyHoH43hqzeS4/2t6Py+H5Q pHi8iDL/26Isa2OMWxGNTEuUICkSRfaG7vjSpDQGrrQqrXeh+RIUcIA4mZw4kaEd0SBRmtFKncJEw 325GxCqIufBKmQ==; Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 18:30:54 +0200 Message-Id: <83h6luzy69.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 9 Nov 2023 15:54:59 +0000) Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#67003: 26.3; (elisp) Basic Char Syntax: Show octal and Unicode names as well, for chars References: <83wmurz3hf.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 67003-done Cc: 67003-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "67003@debbugs.gnu.org" <67003@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 15:54:59 +0000 > > > > 2. But show also the octal digits. > > > Show where and how? And why? > > Where we show the ?\ char representation, its > decimal equivalent (⇒), char name/description (in > a comment), and key description (in the comment). > > IOW, where we specify these chars that have their > own, dedicated escape sequences. > > Why? Because in `General Escape Syntax' we say > that you can use octal char codes. Why not show > the octal values for these chars here? They are shown in the very next subsection. > Why not show the hex values also, as that's what > `insert-char' accepts? Ditto. > `Basic Char Syntax' could also usefully say > something about where you can use escape > sequences - and that's _not_ to interactively > insert such a char. That's a separate issue, but the next section says something about that as well. > > > 3. Show also other names, such as Unicode/ISO names. > > > E.g., say that "vertical tab" is the char that has the ISO name > > > (VT). (And still mention that it's C-k.) > > > > The next subsection, "General Escape Syntax", > > includes this information. > > Not for these specific chars that have dedicated > escape syntaxes, it doesn't. They're specified > only in `Basic Char Syntax'. I don't see the significance. We obviously cannot show all the characters, and it isn't like VT is an important one. It is just an example. > > > IOW, give a little more info, esp. commonly > > > encountered or "official" names for such chars. > > > > I think we already do, but you need to consider the entire section, > > not just its single subsection, which correctly starts with the > > basics, before we proceed with more advanced stuff. > > I don't see that it would be bad to let users know, > here, that what we call "vertical tab" here is also > called "line tabulation". Try inserting that char > using `insert-char' without knowing its Unicode/ISO > name or its hex value - good luck. Lumping too much material in a single subsection is bad from the methodological POV: it makes the subsection more confusing and harder to read. So I don't think we need to do anything with this issue, and I'm therefore closing it. From unknown Fri Sep 12 09:19:12 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator