From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:09:13 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#66780 <66780@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#66780 <66780@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off Reply-To: bug#66780 <66780@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:09:13 +0000 retitle 66780 [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode = is off reassign 66780 emacs submitter 66780 Jens Schmidt severity 66780 minor tag 66780 patch thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 27 16:32:26 2023 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Oct 2023 20:32:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37399 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwTVJ-0003kW-50 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:32:26 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:35194) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwTVE-0003kF-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:32:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwTUY-00084N-R2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:31:39 -0400 Received: from mr4.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.164]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwTUV-0000i1-AA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 16:31:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698438692; bh=4gG5KIVv8beIdtUVIOkB/GOIDrKo3vRSlBr4B/9au/0=; h=Content-Type:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:From:Content-Language:To: Subject:From; b=r+2ZcYAk0gqrNF09m6ngdwo4fHxUdhdAU3s6a270y6XXBcbfDBVKDbbF1WYNOgPnH B2K/8NFDMejLWOo8atHzbOo9Fsu5JYQccMU1AhqkdCCd+ZbzCRiVSoOg3GXsDB/Kjg 6Z9EGRYWUeCvmJYZ7cW2jn3N/PZ+uoI0PdBes8X8= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr4.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SHDpX1jhcz1y2k for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 20:31:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.178.41] (port-92-194-118-150.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.118.150]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SHDpR59Q3zHnfp for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 20:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------WgCidZID1ewrWNgyZLJcVQ0f" Message-ID: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:31:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird From: Jens Schmidt Content-Language: de-DE-frami, en-US To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 15402 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698438687-FD7FF94E-2AD5616B/0/0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=145.253.228.164; envelope-from=jschmidt4gnu@vodafonemail.de; helo=mr4.vodafonemail.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------WgCidZID1ewrWNgyZLJcVQ0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Severity: minor All issues reported here are about using rectangle-mark-mode (RMM) when Transient Mark mode (TMM) is off. Bug#42663 already has mentioned a few issues of this combination, but IMO did not completely describe or solve them. So suppose you start in the Emacs source directory tree ./src/emacs -Q --eval='(transient-mark-mode -1)' README When you then press `C-x ' to enable RMM, the following happens, which is expected: 1. The mark is NOT activated and, hence, the region-rectangle is NOT shown when you move point. Also, point movement stays regular, in that you cannot advance point to after EOL, for example. Again, this restriction is expected and is described already in commit 06dcd2be5d42 provided by Sean to solve bug#42663. However, what has not been described yet is that some parts of RMM actually _are_ active when one enables it with TMM off: 2. The key bindings in `rectangle-mark-mode-map', so that, for example, `C-x C-x' does not exchange point and mark, but instead cycles through the corners of the rectangle spanned by mark and point (using closest accessible buffer positions as an approximation for those positions where point regularly cannot be moved to). (Short reproducer when starting off the "emacs -Q ..." above: M-: (rectangle-mark-mode -1) RET M-< C-x C-4 C-n C-e C-x C-x C-x C-x C-x C-x) 3. Advices on `region-extract-function' and `region-insert-function', so that C-w and C-y still operate on the current rectangle, and not the regular region. (Short reproducer when starting off the "emacs -Q ..." above: M-: (rectangle-mark-mode -1) RET M-< C-x C-4 C-n C-4 C-f C-w) I found 2. and 3. surprising because I would have expected that RMM is completely off. Moreover, RMM does not provide a minor mode lighter so you cannot easily tell whether it is on or off. I have attempted to improve the situation by providing documentation (fix A) in a patch on emacs-29, and some minor code fixes (B and C) in a patch on emacs-master. That latter patch still has a placeholder "bug#XXXXX" which needs to be updated once I have a bug number. * Fix A: Improve Documentation Here is the text that Sean has already added to emacs/killing.tex in commit 06dcd2be5d42: +The region-rectangle works only when the mark is active. In +particular, when Transient Mark mode is off (@pxref{Disabled Transient +Mark}), in addition to typing @kbd{C-x @key{SPC}} you will need to +activate the mark. I first tried to extend on that, but then decided to completely redo the material, like this: + rectangle-mark-mode behaves in a slightly different way when +Transient Mark mode is off (@pxref{Disabled Transient Mark}). In this +case, when you enable rectangle-mark-mode, the region-rectangle is not +automatically enabled. Accordingly, cursor movement with @kbd{C-f}, +@kbd{C-n} etc.@: is confined to the regularly accessible buffer +positions. However, killing and yanking still operate on the +rectangle spanned by point and mark. Also @kbd{C-x C-x} still cycles +through the corners of that rectangle, but only as far as these are at +buffer positions that are regularly accessible. + + As mentioned above, rectangle-mark-mode persists as long the region +is active: If the region gets deactivated, rectangle-mark-mode gets +deactivated as well. But with disabled Transient mark mode there is +usually no active region that would get deactivated, and so you have +to explicitly switch off rectangle-mark-mode when you no longer want +to use it. + + To experience all benefits of rectangle-mark-mode and the +region-rectangle when Transient Mark mode is off, you can temporarily +activate Transient Mark mode after enabling rectangle-mark-mode, for +example, with @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}}. @xref{Disabled Transient +Mark}. I also replaced the somewhat unhelpful reference to parent node "@xref{Killing}" further up by references to sibling nodes: so in a rectangular fashion, and killing and yanking operate on the -rectangle. @xref{Killing}. The mode persists only as long as the -region is active. +rectangle. @xref{Deletion and Killing}, @ref{Yanking}. The mode +persists only as long as the region is active. * Fix B: Use a Minor Mode Lighter With TMM off and RMM on, the most important indicator of RMM (the region-rectangle) is not visible. And since RMM's minor mode lighter is nil, one has no visible feedback of it still being active. That can be surprising since some of its features are still active as described above. I tried to improve that by using a minor mode lighter that goes on only if TMM is off, like this: +(defvar rectangle-mark-mode-lighter nil + "Lighter displayed for `rectangle-mark-mode'.") + ;;;###autoload (define-minor-mode rectangle-mark-mode "Toggle the region as rectangular. Activates the region if it's inactive and Transient Mark mode is on. Only lasts until the region is next deactivated." - :lighter nil + :lighter rectangle-mark-mode-lighter (rectangle--reset-crutches) (when rectangle-mark-mode + ;; Make us more visible when Transient Mark mode is off and there + ;; is no rectangle (bug#XXXXX). + (setq rectangle-mark-mode-lighter + (and (not transient-mark-mode) " Rect")) * Fix C: Mark RMM Movement Commands as Shift-Selectable Finally, to make RMM better usable with shift-select-mode, I added the necessary interactive specifiers to the RMM-specific movement commands rectangle-right-char rectangle-left-char rectangle-forward-char rectangle-backward-char rectangle-next-line rectangle-previous-line Please review. 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Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:24:19 +0300 Message-Id: <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt In-Reply-To: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:31:24 +0200 > From: Jens Schmidt via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, > the Swiss army knife of text editors" > > I have attempted to improve the situation by providing documentation > (fix A) in a patch on emacs-29, and some minor code fixes (B and C) in a > patch on emacs-master. That latter patch still has a placeholder > "bug#XXXXX" which needs to be updated once I have a bug number. Do we expect people to use rectangle-mark-mode with transient-mark-mode turned off? The description of the behavior in that case is complicated and confusing, and I wonder whether we should have it in the manual. We could just say that the behavior is slightly different, and that we don't recommend turning off transient-mark-mode if the user wants to use rectangle-mark-mode. > * Fix B: Use a Minor Mode Lighter > > With TMM off and RMM on, the most important indicator of RMM (the > region-rectangle) is not visible. And since RMM's minor mode lighter is > nil, one has no visible feedback of it still being active. That can be > surprising since some of its features are still active as described > above. Again, not sure indicating this combination is worth our while, especially since the real estate on the mode line is already too scarce, so much so that in many windows important information at the end of the mode line is pushed beyond the limits. Why do you think it's important to have this combination prominently documented and indicated at run time? Do we have any evidence that it is used frequently enough to justify these measures? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 06:51:41 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 10:51:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37838 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwgur-0001fl-AK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:51:41 -0400 Received: from mr4.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.164]:45370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwgun-0001fT-F2 for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:51:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698490259; bh=h1zj88F9EfgfdSsJe2uNmL0s6BFDQTRJt1P/O5X8mn8=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:User-Agent: Content-Type:From; b=JLGyvWFIU7S24z7Sg9fP4UEnJ0JZDvJw/4LY2C197+e49bnJXNThbY6X7tHE8TEmw DHqbQ5Y8kFGR0kT2aDE7XjgCjVkH5sLfmR1yWIyBVKFNMm7jpzOxzZQ4JNsSAjb7A4 1xsuMyXSX1aJjdPtVfROt5bnR0qBJ6Gu2sjC5F7A= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr4.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SHbtC3nPkz1y2X; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 10:50:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sappc2 (port-92-194-18-245.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.18.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SHbt36x65z9s2J; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 10:50:48 +0000 (UTC) From: Jens Schmidt To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:24:19 +0300") Message-ID: <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 3691 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698490255-617FD816-E99C8EA4/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:31:24 +0200 >> From: Jens Schmidt via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, >> the Swiss army knife of text editors" >> >> I have attempted to improve the situation by providing documentation >> (fix A) in a patch on emacs-29, and some minor code fixes (B and C) in a >> patch on emacs-master. That latter patch still has a placeholder >> "bug#XXXXX" which needs to be updated once I have a bug number. > > Do we expect people to use rectangle-mark-mode with > transient-mark-mode turned off? Sean and me make two already. More seriously, I use shift-select-mode with transient-mark-mode turned off, because I'd like to have the region inactive as much as possible. And I always have been looking for an option to more easily operate on rectangles at EOL, like in the following example: vvv add another column with "foo" here foo foo bar foo bar baz rectangle-mark-mode seems to fill that gap nicely, in particular, since it could be used with shift-select-mode once the interactive specifiers have been amended accordingly. In the above example, I move to the last line, then: C-e, C-x , C-3 S-, C-x r t, all the while staying in my usual shift-select work flow. > The description of the behavior in that case is complicated and > confusing, and I wonder whether we should have it in the manual. We > could just say that the behavior is slightly different, and that we > don't recommend turning off transient-mark-mode if the user wants to > use rectangle-mark-mode. Agreed in general but see above for a use-case where the combination seems helpful. Another option would have been to turn off the confusing bits of RMM when *permanent* TMM is off. I would have preferred that, actually: A rectangle-mark-mode that *really* only shows the region-rectangle when permanent TMM is off but leaves all other functionality (kill, yank, C-x C-x) unchanged. In that case a conditional minor mode lighter would not be neccessary, either. What do you think about that option? >> * Fix B: Use a Minor Mode Lighter >> >> With TMM off and RMM on, the most important indicator of RMM (the >> region-rectangle) is not visible. And since RMM's minor mode lighter is >> nil, one has no visible feedback of it still being active. That can be >> surprising since some of its features are still active as described >> above. > > Again, not sure indicating this combination is worth our while, > especially since the real estate on the mode line is already too > scarce, so much so that in many windows important information at the > end of the mode line is pushed beyond the limits. Agreed on the real estate, but the information would be displayed only in very specific circumstances, for very few (?) users, and only for a very short time, since that minor mode has a short lifetime. But WHEN it is displayed, it could save confusion and inadvertent edits. > Why do you think it's important to have this combination prominently > documented and indicated at run time? Do we have any evidence that it > is used frequently enough to justify these measures? No poll results available. But I guess that users coming from other editors could prefer transient-mark-mode: off shift-select-mode: on since this is closer to their previous experience, where the region always deactivates itself as soon as you move the (unshifted) cursor. Finally, do you also have any objections on fix C, adding the "^" markers to the interactive specs of the movement commands? Or would that bit be OK? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 06:59:14 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 10:59:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37844 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwh2A-0001rd-Bx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:59:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52754) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwh28-0001rN-N8 for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:59:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwh1X-0007tb-77; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 06:58:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=DRgbsjhJDlcjX8m0iS0j28EDWFhY5YIVxfRLYUGEmpI=; b=cHPm5xUy5JXT sfCTL73WdWIiJK/U0azxlg3VpRIjxjItnWtOs21B4LXgRi6mzpc3yjSU4xtf1hnDVtLbXrZyxck4m ZK5EOhisPf3TOD0EdTnRd5qXnHHruOyccMlIZl45m9M+4NExKuDFgctM0UBXGFb2csdGVnkrcqNcC zFFL9QC15depW5G1rvDUjBARUfI5Kva+aiaN1Ql//mkqG/01kiFTEANe2rpYvYdv1ajW9buMBdvoT tt0W/gVrAavNUA72siyA8iRvfbv7Rk4A7tjjjMxjG2wftPrSbtO8ynr2A7CBediGKGdnrDX9V0Fnp dbfBI5ENlntuh83IIsLfYA==; Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 13:58:28 +0300 Message-Id: <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt In-Reply-To: <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> (message from Jens Schmidt on Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Jens Schmidt > Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200 > > Another option would have been to turn off the confusing bits of RMM > when *permanent* TMM is off. I would have preferred that, actually: A > rectangle-mark-mode that *really* only shows the region-rectangle when > permanent TMM is off but leaves all other functionality (kill, yank, C-x > C-x) unchanged. In that case a conditional minor mode lighter would not > be neccessary, either. > > What do you think about that option? It would be a backward-incompatible change, so it has even more disadvantages IMO. > > Why do you think it's important to have this combination prominently > > documented and indicated at run time? Do we have any evidence that it > > is used frequently enough to justify these measures? > > No poll results available. But I guess that users coming from other > editors could prefer > > transient-mark-mode: off > shift-select-mode: on > > since this is closer to their previous experience, where the region > always deactivates itself as soon as you move the (unshifted) cursor. I actually think most users want transient-mark-mode turned ON, since that is closer what other editors do. > Finally, do you also have any objections on fix C, adding the "^" > markers to the interactive specs of the movement commands? Or would > that bit be OK? You never explained why that would be advantageous, nor even what effect will that have. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 08:51:59 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 12:52:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37912 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwinH-0007hU-Hc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 08:51:59 -0400 Received: from mr4.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.164]:48530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwinE-0007hE-Qc for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 08:51:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698497479; bh=5lYxZYIxBAnw1EjDlTYAqSprDkhId0eyBt504Rwprrk=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:User-Agent: Content-Type:From; b=i5z62SppqX440SHt4e2sUIgW/PKwFXQmpNjcxripzdUiDIYjxWqnkgntQxqqDVWeI KJGd39j87PzYsC8n8byiB0RLNqONbUWXrSsKoylMSFqf7WmoHKYeGHeD0hAWu2DHXx kPcOB1b996WHtRX/5dV0m8li5KStTAX4wkxyJ4K8= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr4.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SHfY3221Zz1y16; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:51:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sappc2 (port-92-194-18-245.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.18.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SHfXv5D82z9s5p; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:51:08 +0000 (UTC) From: Jens Schmidt To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:51:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2023 13:58:28 +0300") Message-ID: <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 3251 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698497474-FECA17FF-B74D6FC7/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jens Schmidt >> Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200 A general question first: Notwithstanding the discussion of how many use it, do we agree that the combination of using shift-select-mode _without_ permanent transient-mark-mode ("shift-select-mode-only scenario") is a supported scenario in Emacs? Because that's what this bug is about, in the end: Instead of discouraging the shift-select-mode-only users to use rectangle-mark-mode I would like to find a solution that helps them. Without affecting any other users. Is that not a valid, probably even noble ambition? >> Another option would have been to turn off the confusing bits of RMM >> when *permanent* TMM is off. I would have preferred that, actually: A >> rectangle-mark-mode that *really* only shows the region-rectangle when >> permanent TMM is off but leaves all other functionality (kill, yank, C-x >> C-x) unchanged. In that case a conditional minor mode lighter would not >> be neccessary, either. >> >> What do you think about that option? > > It would be a backward-incompatible change, so it has even more > disadvantages IMO. It would be backward-incompatible only where the behavior currently is confusing. For those who use permanent transient-mark-mode nothing would change. Another option, not featuring backward-incompatiblity at all but still helping shift-select-mode-only users: Adding a rectangle-light-mark-mode that provides the selection capabilities, but not the editing surprises of rectangle-mark-mode. The documentation could then provide the recommendation to use that new mode instead of the other. >> No poll results available. But I guess that users coming from other >> editors could prefer >> >> transient-mark-mode: off >> shift-select-mode: on >> >> since this is closer to their previous experience, where the region >> always deactivates itself as soon as you move the (unshifted) cursor. > > I actually think most users want transient-mark-mode turned ON, since > that is closer what other editors do. I disagree here. Other editors do the equivalent of shift-select-mode. I haven't seen yet an editor that (exaggerating) randomly activates the region and then leaves it on until you press C-g. >> Finally, do you also have any objections on fix C, adding the "^" >> markers to the interactive specs of the movement commands? Or would >> that bit be OK? > > You never explained why that would be advantageous, nor even what > effect will that have. Sorry. It would have the effect documented for `interactive': If the string begins with =E2=80=98^=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98shift-select-m= ode=E2=80=99 is non-nil, Emacs first calls the function =E2=80=98handle-shift-selection=E2=80=99. Function `handle-shift-selection' in that case temporarily enables transient-mark-mode and pushes the mark, which in turn activates the region-rectangle provided that RMM is enabled. The effect would be that I can use the shifted cursor keys to select a region-rectangle even if transient-mark-mode is not permanently on. Which I consider advantageous. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 09:18:29 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 13:18:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37925 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwjCu-0008NF-UX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:18:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44820) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwjCr-0008N0-V8 for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:18:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwjCF-0007xw-Gs; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:17:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=zWLGChPrL/5jGbF15bwy7SxiVzS4alAGT+ESDSq/7zs=; b=mcnM+zDWMDa9zeLhZDKs UKOJ78hsncK69HtD1Ok+9nXNQQIT41kap1/Rtjc97CEHEYUhNYrMV4+oe/vL3O1JRpAUrdsoskx9B qdg9ZssY3eu8ak3cuwqw2TISuo83/AKlk5jBDK5NIb7VDEi3cU6TBcRpX9uJekWxMq2bclZi5kFuM BnhgtksBn8fBFxl7KvsxqC7ieP6uz4hH1ErRppFWCC+IWlC0h6SdSEPqwpGiyAxltTKSBfPAPmsYE uq1bMJbyw9H26bvYZRVSL9sNZh38OE3IPGxxhpHQ0oHJ1Q9W3HPj7NvRwx0hsXDZkvsVl4US8cFi8 eoM21R0VTgJJxA==; Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:17:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt , Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> (message from Jens Schmidt on Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:51:07 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Jens Schmidt > Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:51:07 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Jens Schmidt > >> Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org > >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200 > > A general question first: Notwithstanding the discussion of how many use > it, do we agree that the combination of using shift-select-mode > _without_ permanent transient-mark-mode ("shift-select-mode-only > scenario") is a supported scenario in Emacs? It is supported de-facto, yes. But that doesn't mean we must recommend that people use it, if the results are confusing and hard to predict and understand. Whoever uses this combination, if they understand the consequences, are free to use it, of course. But if they don't understand the consequences well enough to be using this combination in a way that's useful to them, then there's nothing wrong with saying don't do that. > Because that's what this bug is about, in the end: Instead of > discouraging the shift-select-mode-only users to use rectangle-mark-mode > I would like to find a solution that helps them. Without affecting any > other users. Is that not a valid, probably even noble ambition? Not necessarily, not where I stand. You found something that you'd like to fix for your own reasons. That is perfectly legitimate, and you have all the means of doing so locally: that's what makes Emacs the perfectly customizable tool. But when you come here and propose patches, you say something else: that your personal preferences and itches you'd like to scratch are important enough and general enough to make those changes in Emacs core so that they affect everyone else. And that is something that doesn't automatically follows from your personal preferences and use patterns. It needs more serious justifications. IOW, when you call this a "bug", I can easily agree with you if "bug" is interpreted as "bug under your personal preferences and use patterns". But if you want to convince me that it is a "bug" worthy of making changes in Emacs that will affect everyone, it is not enough to describe your own personal use case. > >> Another option would have been to turn off the confusing bits of RMM > >> when *permanent* TMM is off. I would have preferred that, actually: A > >> rectangle-mark-mode that *really* only shows the region-rectangle when > >> permanent TMM is off but leaves all other functionality (kill, yank, C-x > >> C-x) unchanged. In that case a conditional minor mode lighter would not > >> be neccessary, either. > >> > >> What do you think about that option? > > > > It would be a backward-incompatible change, so it has even more > > disadvantages IMO. > > It would be backward-incompatible only where the behavior currently is > confusing. It is confusing for you, I get that. But we have no reason to believe it's confusing for everyone else. > Another option, not featuring backward-incompatiblity at all but still > helping shift-select-mode-only users: Adding a rectangle-light-mark-mode > that provides the selection capabilities, but not the editing surprises > of rectangle-mark-mode. The documentation could then provide the > recommendation to use that new mode instead of the other. And here you suggest a complication in Emacs, which again, as far as I'm concerned, requires to be justified. Once again I ask: why not make these changes, or others that you propose, in your own local Emacs, and be done? Emacs makes it very easy to make such changes, definitely for someone who can write patches you submitted in this bug report. Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to affect everyone else, when all you have is your personal negative experience with these features? > > I actually think most users want transient-mark-mode turned ON, since > > that is closer what other editors do. > > I disagree here. Other editors do the equivalent of shift-select-mode. They have both, because region is highlighted not only by shift-movements, but also by other means. We turned on transient-mark-mode by default because we have ample evidence that many people prefer it. I don't think this has changed since we made that decision. > I haven't seen yet an editor that (exaggerating) randomly activates the > region and then leaves it on until you press C-g. It is true that the Emacs behavior under transient-mark-mode is not exactly like that of other applications, but it is very close where the related behaviors overlap (C-g is not a good example because it is quite unique to Emacs). > >> Finally, do you also have any objections on fix C, adding the "^" > >> markers to the interactive specs of the movement commands? Or would > >> that bit be OK? > > > > You never explained why that would be advantageous, nor even what > > effect will that have. > > Sorry. It would have the effect documented for `interactive': > > If the string begins with ‘^’ and ‘shift-select-mode’ is non-nil, > Emacs first calls the function ‘handle-shift-selection’. > > Function `handle-shift-selection' in that case temporarily enables > transient-mark-mode and pushes the mark, which in turn activates the > region-rectangle provided that RMM is enabled. The effect would be that > I can use the shifted cursor keys to select a region-rectangle even if > transient-mark-mode is not permanently on. Which I consider > advantageous. Maybe we should do this. I'd like to hear opinions of others about this, in particular that of Stefan Kangas (CC'ed). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 12:37:47 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 16:37:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39457 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwmJn-0008EY-2j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:47 -0400 Received: from mr4.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.164]:37962) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwmJh-0008EH-HE for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698511024; bh=n3MQnNFCp3bX6ECAMwku7flv5yat0AJRY7Pbzh+D8w4=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:User-Agent: Content-Type:From; b=Se1OVkhh5JyklflAqnpzuFY0h7qNnk+OKTMprS2CYBL36NuZm9qFtyWUr4qhuYOQV 82lrrzHtGlI6EgXQSnBsdKw6T8Zc8PSoMs3eMbkHaaFps2kr3hGlhIGstFt5e/i0RZ YFZWwnZnvmgXxNkKwgytTfI513n91z+/cJsu0skU= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr4.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SHlYX01xyz1xxG; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:37:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sappc2 (port-92-194-18-245.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.18.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SHlYK3BnQzHpxb; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:36:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Jens Schmidt To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:36:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:17:39 +0300") Message-ID: <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 5840 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698511019-E3FFE18D-CB51784C/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jens Schmidt >> Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:51:07 +0200 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> From: Jens Schmidt >> >> Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:50:48 +0200 >> >> A general question first: Notwithstanding the discussion of how many use >> it, do we agree that the combination of using shift-select-mode >> _without_ permanent transient-mark-mode ("shift-select-mode-only >> scenario") is a supported scenario in Emacs? > > It is supported de-facto, yes. But that doesn't mean we must > recommend that people use it, if the results are confusing and hard to > predict and understand. Whoever uses this combination, if they > understand the consequences, are free to use it, of course. But if > they don't understand the consequences well enough to be using this > combination in a way that's useful to them, then there's nothing wrong > with saying don't do that. > >> Because that's what this bug is about, in the end: Instead of >> discouraging the shift-select-mode-only users to use rectangle-mark-mode >> I would like to find a solution that helps them. Without affecting any >> other users. Is that not a valid, probably even noble ambition? > > Not necessarily, not where I stand. You found something that you'd > like to fix for your own reasons. That is perfectly legitimate, and > you have all the means of doing so locally: that's what makes Emacs > the perfectly customizable tool. But when you come here and propose > patches, you say something else: that your personal preferences and > itches you'd like to scratch are important enough and general enough > to make those changes in Emacs core so that they affect everyone else. > And that is something that doesn't automatically follows from your > personal preferences and use patterns. It needs more serious > justifications. > > IOW, when you call this a "bug", I can easily agree with you if "bug" > is interpreted as "bug under your personal preferences and use > patterns". But if you want to convince me that it is a "bug" worthy > of making changes in Emacs that will affect everyone, it is not enough > to describe your own personal use case. > >> >> Another option would have been to turn off the confusing bits of RMM >> >> when *permanent* TMM is off. I would have preferred that, actually: A >> >> rectangle-mark-mode that *really* only shows the region-rectangle when >> >> permanent TMM is off but leaves all other functionality (kill, yank, C-x >> >> C-x) unchanged. In that case a conditional minor mode lighter would not >> >> be neccessary, either. >> >> >> >> What do you think about that option? >> > >> > It would be a backward-incompatible change, so it has even more >> > disadvantages IMO. >> >> It would be backward-incompatible only where the behavior currently is >> confusing. > > It is confusing for you, I get that. But we have no reason to believe > it's confusing for everyone else. > >> Another option, not featuring backward-incompatiblity at all but still >> helping shift-select-mode-only users: Adding a rectangle-light-mark-mode >> that provides the selection capabilities, but not the editing surprises >> of rectangle-mark-mode. The documentation could then provide the >> recommendation to use that new mode instead of the other. > > And here you suggest a complication in Emacs, which again, as far as > I'm concerned, requires to be justified. Once again I ask: why not > make these changes, or others that you propose, in your own local > Emacs, and be done? Emacs makes it very easy to make such changes, > definitely for someone who can write patches you submitted in this bug > report. Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to > affect everyone else, when all you have is your personal negative > experience with these features? Thanks for your detailed reply, which I feel somewhat hard to reply in the usual inlined style, so please let me allow to pick your points and reply to them: > And that is something that doesn't automatically follows from your > personal preferences and use patterns. It needs more serious > justifications. It's not only my "personal preferences and use patterns". See Sean's bug#42663 plus Michael's bug#16066. So every now and then somebody having transient-mark-mode switched off comes across this. > Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to > affect everyone else [...] It's not "everyone else". My solution of adding a conditional minor mode lighter has been designed to specifically affect (== help) only those that do not use permanent transient-mark-mode. > You found something that you'd > like to fix for your own reasons. Really? Go through all that effort of carefully describing the issue and discussing with you just for my own reasons, where I have (indeed) fixed that issue in my .emacs in 10mins? > Once again I ask: why not > make these changes, or others that you propose, in your own local > Emacs, and be done? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's a rather discouraging request. Is is somewhat in contrast to this statements from the README: You may encounter bugs in this release. If you do, please report them; your bug reports are valuable contributions to the FSF, since they allow us to notice and fix problems on machines we don't have, or in code we don't use often. So are you asking me not to file any bugs? Any "edge-case bugs" in code that you don't use often? Or, in other words: Which of my change requests so far had truly the quality to affect me and only me? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 12:48:30 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 16:48:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39462 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwmU9-0008W9-Ks for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:48:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwmU7-0008VR-Od for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:48:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwmTV-000258-Dq; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:47:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=aCnuCi21OI+9nkChziC3GMvjnEknRhfBP3U6ZKMXRf4=; b=lyCv4BjK75OO uUAB5N514Sn4Th1RB+D1m1eQlfnxZpZzt8uDc+A+EMY56f6KqNTfgCaDwjU+oo+NjdXa9VfwEnBWK tdZ1OHGRZN0XA+usLRTD1O/kERmkw9ybIG53NO/hzD4OoPkPrQggX/bsm7LoriX+426pw/F2WgiV4 kgNahtukgxoLHz/45evmJ6rPMnzYjFTPhHMAcyGxgs4lNAeLNVDs7iJ9mkDkVmvPI1Y+ZUjPfZRme 0nKBd1JgjQsGM483zntW+pbA6lsb7mMvnlakdn8qPoBIaQASb91Bvgn1vfsHscL3C6xKL8hWih4dc g4tR7QDmp1P4sPIFtMHzEQ==; Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:47:34 +0300 Message-Id: <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt In-Reply-To: <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> (message from Jens Schmidt on Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:36:49 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Jens Schmidt > Cc: Stefan Kangas , 66780@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:36:49 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > And that is something that doesn't automatically follows from your > > personal preferences and use patterns. It needs more serious > > justifications. > > It's not only my "personal preferences and use patterns". See Sean's > bug#42663 plus Michael's bug#16066. So every now and then somebody > having transient-mark-mode switched off comes across this. Yes, I know. But that doesn't remove the need to justify a change to Emacs. > > Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to > > affect everyone else [...] > > It's not "everyone else". My solution of adding a conditional minor > mode lighter has been designed to specifically affect (== help) only > those that do not use permanent transient-mark-mode. It's one more minor mode with one more lighter. So yes, it affects everyone else. > > You found something that you'd > > like to fix for your own reasons. > > Really? Go through all that effort of carefully describing the issue > and discussing with you just for my own reasons, where I have (indeed) > fixed that issue in my .emacs in 10mins? > > > Once again I ask: why not > > make these changes, or others that you propose, in your own local > > Emacs, and be done? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > That's a rather discouraging request. Is is somewhat in contrast to > this statements from the README: > > You may encounter bugs in this release. If you do, please report > them; your bug reports are valuable contributions to the FSF, since > they allow us to notice and fix problems on machines we don't have, or > in code we don't use often. > > So are you asking me not to file any bugs? Of course not. But please don't expect us to agree with and accept every change you suggest. Each one of them is judged on its own right, and not all of them will find their way into Emacs. Sometimes, we will not even agree that what you consider a bug is indeed a bug. > Or, in other words: Which of my change requests so far had truly the > quality to affect me and only me? Are you asking about the 3 suggestions in this bug report? Then I think I already answered that: the first 2 I tend not to accept, the last one I think could be accepted, and I'd like to hear opinions of others about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 14:30:56 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 18:30:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwo5H-0005Km-JU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:30:55 -0400 Received: from mr5.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.165]:55944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwo5E-0005KS-LQ for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:30:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698517815; bh=Yn3Lc73jcDFKj+WfmmqukSwnfcnQy1rMPcu3W6035Ic=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:User-Agent: Content-Type:From; b=sNEMxx3yr/12m6GmxWjfd/JX8XsSipguDXiS8u5BtQKFe+zPstDQ0GDmDcM8mUhr+ fEsmMY5RbMZTrEpvdw9Uo0Jo3QlnGxpXiMYifY0X36Pzg60bIg75HOJu2MJjj97chQ 0ijMEwA/gqShBYp2qLDMJihSDDg72wMnDJ0yL8BM= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr5.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SHp470VYkz1xxj; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:30:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sappc2 (port-92-194-18-245.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.18.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SHp3w1Q5GzHnHf; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:30:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Jens Schmidt To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:30:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:47:34 +0300") Message-ID: <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 1970 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698517810-3CFF094E-FC163932/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jens Schmidt >> Cc: Stefan Kangas , 66780@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:36:49 +0200 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> It's not only my "personal preferences and use patterns". See Sean's >> bug#42663 plus Michael's bug#16066. So every now and then somebody >> having transient-mark-mode switched off comes across this. > > Yes, I know. But that doesn't remove the need to justify a change to > Emacs. And what justifies a change? Let's focus on the lighter change: What would justify this? More frequent user demand? >> > Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to >> > affect everyone else [...] >> >> It's not "everyone else". My solution of adding a conditional minor >> mode lighter has been designed to specifically affect (== help) only >> those that do not use permanent transient-mark-mode. > > It's one more minor mode with one more lighter. So yes, it affects > everyone else. By its mere presence in `minor-mode-alist', mapping to a variable there that is nil most of the time? How would that affect you, for example? >> > Once again I ask: why not >> > make these changes, or others that you propose, in your own local >> > Emacs, and be done? >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> That's a rather discouraging request. [...] >> >> Or, in other words: Which of my change requests so far had truly the >> quality to affect me and only me? > > Are you asking about the 3 suggestions in this bug report? The double plural you have been using in "these change*s*, or other*s* that you propose" seemed to refer to changes other than those dicussed in this report. I take it you did not mean that and will continue to file bugs. After all, most of my past reports had some effect on Emacs, and almost always the one I intended. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 28 14:49:53 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2023 18:49:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39557 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwoNd-0005u5-0s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:49:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52246) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qwoNb-0005ts-9o for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:49:52 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwoMz-0003NE-9Q; Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:49:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Am/mH4kQElisMGHH4lr9ObKFkYnjs3RFpI82G5DO4CA=; b=Po/B0hrh0+7I I5+qfo5IGZ/DvJl1i47L2bN5jJ9ItgvKMuvZZA35JUswXQn42xni1c5aSwc7A/vTYW2ZhapQQzsrf N66dhPffMPAIGu2pRfT6MqlWKWMILASMPiV/yOPoNOFPmuXOwx5hy/HfqEWR+Qp6pg7muBd+GyslF SwwnM1hblJVllg4MUMj47nla8whE6eqxTz1A9V8rBbRZVJKItpJkUsYniJqMSFdSDbioPCQJ1JKZb nBjLZcmAF44ltElETaB8zwjGM5s+4JfFLfUFOdOOBxP26Qlqeav0MAW+M1z9kVK5XQz+gjqDMsFsX j32za6Jwre8UM5vo1T76OQ==; Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:48:57 +0300 Message-Id: <837cn6d1ly.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt In-Reply-To: <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> (message from Jens Schmidt on Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:30:00 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Jens Schmidt > Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:30:00 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> It's not only my "personal preferences and use patterns". See Sean's > >> bug#42663 plus Michael's bug#16066. So every now and then somebody > >> having transient-mark-mode switched off comes across this. > > > > Yes, I know. But that doesn't remove the need to justify a change to > > Emacs. > > And what justifies a change? Let's focus on the lighter change: What > would justify this? More frequent user demand? Serious reasons to make the change. For this particular one, I guess arguments for why this situation is not as obscure and unimportant as it looks. Obscure aspects of Emacs use do not get to be described in the user manual, since the manual is not supposed to describe every command, variable, and function we have in Emacs, only those deemed important enough. For the rest, there are the doc string and Help commands that search those doc strings and help users find those symbols even though they are not in the manual. > >> > Why do you insist on making these changes in upstream, to > >> > affect everyone else [...] > >> > >> It's not "everyone else". My solution of adding a conditional minor > >> mode lighter has been designed to specifically affect (== help) only > >> those that do not use permanent transient-mark-mode. > > > > It's one more minor mode with one more lighter. So yes, it affects > > everyone else. > > By its mere presence in `minor-mode-alist', mapping to a variable there > that is nil most of the time? How would that affect you, for example? For starters, I'd need to know about it, so I could understand what it tells me when it is present. When it _is_ present, it's quite possible that some other mode-line information important to me will be pushed outside of the visible part. > >> Or, in other words: Which of my change requests so far had truly the > >> quality to affect me and only me? > > > > Are you asking about the 3 suggestions in this bug report? > > The double plural you have been using in "these change*s*, or other*s* > that you propose" seemed to refer to changes other than those dicussed > in this report. I take it you did not mean that and will continue to > file bugs. After all, most of my past reports had some effect on Emacs, > and almost always the one I intended. When a bug reports that Emacs doesn't do something it ought to do, like when it leaves a file with incorrect mode bits, the need to fix it is clear and doesn't need to be justified. That is not the case here, though. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 29 10:50:05 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2023 14:50:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43137 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qx777-00082S-Gs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:50:05 -0400 Received: from mr5.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.165]:42170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qx771-00081o-OK for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:50:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1698590961; bh=iV3VshzXGJtoqVmMW2qlHmnRWYw8SbnNSCBkwZ1+wE8=; h=From:To:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:User-Agent: Content-Type:From; b=i+eq5p6jUOBMHv9rzKktEHqnyBAjla1kxXv8ZIkH5y9Dxlj9/HvGg0C4zk+2Q5eLk LIZWjT1qxFvvfmkhciDVmT4WbS9VbUigATIVsOCtnjHe+m6fSzE6SkgmgPGRqhyiTB 4uvcA6lTunaw4qx0Km1vk4EvFEJfsjRTuSeiwmWA= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr5.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SJK6n53CWz1y35; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:49:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sappc2 (port-92-194-99-65.dynamic.as20676.net [92.194.99.65]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (prime256v1) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SJK6Y0pHhzMm7F; Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:49:06 +0000 (UTC) From: Jens Schmidt To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <837cn6d1ly.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:49:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <837cn6d1ly.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:48:57 +0300") Message-ID: <87pm0x32n4.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 961 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1698590957-55FFB228-CDDCB7B2/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Serious reasons to make the change. For this particular one, I guess > arguments for why this situation is not as obscure and unimportant as > it looks. Obscure aspects of Emacs use do not get to be described in > the user manual, since the manual is not supposed to describe every > command, variable, and function we have in Emacs, only those deemed > important enough. For the rest, there are the doc string and Help > commands that search those doc strings and help users find those > symbols even though they are not in the manual. More or less agreeing. > For starters, I'd need to know about it, so I could understand what it > tells me when it is present. When it _is_ present, it's quite > possible that some other mode-line information important to me will be > pushed outside of the visible part. Still disagreeing, but anyway. Let's wait for Stefan's verdict on fix C. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 02 02:34:54 2023 Received: (at 66780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Nov 2023 06:34:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53758 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyRI2-0004II-HC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:34:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50362) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qyRHx-0004I0-9g for 66780@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:34:49 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyRHI-0002h6-KA; Thu, 02 Nov 2023 02:34:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=8PMesVvEjvOrcsU4sy8kEM9ZmRZCz+6dBQhVn/88d68=; b=AAZgZhk761Nc TXNqNx25LnhgZaBql98mDfg0T1+7jGd1tt4Sqnt6fSuXGZhv77FHLE5kdYIfBv8RuNgdsc2z2iz88 0wATS7qy/2krAWVmyPlKqPuNUl85X32K/BF5da+ExssqvSTh0QdEAIJEMRuYx7o/PiPtDuZb7yMsp Um3Fw6lkHtrRuasXUorF5sxzk5X1bYOhalYc6S3mkmGpcuPKPW2gR09d5+LMIsbL8cnHbW/Dq6v50 1CK4up9Y2+/DYYLAc5tcaDqHTRR0PE1tTL3MqnJIvvf5bWWZUlWfmdbvZYT+8VOpW3+sPOqwP7Lu/ bPZtFRopT0JeXccaRzjt4Q==; Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2023 08:33:57 +0200 Message-Id: <83cyws8y0a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Jens Schmidt In-Reply-To: <87pm0x32n4.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> (message from Jens Schmidt on Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:49:03 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <837cn6d1ly.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm0x32n4.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780 Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Jens Schmidt > Cc: 66780@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:49:03 +0100 > > Let's wait for Stefan's verdict on fix C. Stefan, would you please voice your opinion on that? Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 12 13:29:24 2025 Received: (at 66780-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Apr 2025 17:29:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58151 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1u3efT-0001c7-3K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Apr 2025 13:29:24 -0400 Received: from mr3.vodafonemail.de ([145.253.228.163]:50052) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1u3efQ-0001bc-0n for 66780-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Apr 2025 13:29:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vodafonemail.de; s=vfde-mb-mr2-23sep; t=1744478953; bh=xa1K+k1SVLW/4NWRDcXqMMRkMoyersE0eCForiWgVpM=; h=Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:Subject:References:From: Content-Language:To:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:From; b=TrigAKD3BZPWjHLh9crmt93QeY3i9F/Kf6SMdI7oQFW9MWSEhp6kZOFrsccYrPvMm UGxrLP1s9Yq4BfR1kJHRBktauWKGsSfQiNVV6QHM03qjxK1c/b21HvczJwO+5Lqabm bW0XXdmZjjcf51H3dFbIecoZPBEsD9YQp69wmPcw= Received: from smtp.vodafone.de (unknown [10.0.0.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mr3.vodafonemail.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4ZZgX94fPnz2GSg for <66780-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Apr 2025 17:29:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.178.41] (port-92-199-143-147.dynamic.as20676.net [92.199.143.147]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.vodafone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4ZZgX81y9Cz92kH for <66780-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 Apr 2025 17:29:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5ca7746e-80a4-47c1-91f5-6b1290887a64@vodafonemail.de> Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2025 19:29:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#66780: [PATCH] Improve rectangle-mark-mode when transient-mark-mode is off References: <0b1f5f23-b683-4367-beae-332a8d850d32@vodafonemail.de> <83zg03clik.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdf3trr.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83lebnc8tn.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1fm3o78.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83edhedgy4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8aq3dr2.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83a5s2d789.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5u38if.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <837cn6d1ly.fsf@gnu.org> <87pm0x32n4.fsf@sappc2.fritz.box> <83cyws8y0a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Jens Schmidt Content-Language: de-DE-frami, en-US To: 66780-done@debbugs.gnu.org In-Reply-To: <83cyws8y0a.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-purgate-server: smtpa02 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 114 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1744478952-B5740B0D-7E17D805/0/0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 66780-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) I haven't been using that `rectangle-mark-mode' myself very frequently/at all, so let's just close this RFE ... From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:09:13 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 11:24:13 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator